Question for Liberal Christians and Catholics

[RUDUing2]

Do you feel persecuted in the US? Do you believe that you are in physical danger from Christian fundamentalists? Do you feel inhibited from criticizing Fundamentalist Christianity in the real world, and make up for that here on DU and online generally? Do you feel yourselves to be heirs of the real church of Jesus Christ, victims of Fundamentalist Christian governments in the US since its inception and if Catholic of Fundamentalist Christian Govts in Europe (such as Ireland, England, France, etc?)

This is a serious question..because it seems that many non-christians and atheist on DU don't realize that the fundies are not just anti-atheist..they include all non-fundie christians in their contempt and hate...

[TaleWgnDg]

1. OUCH ! big "ouch!" and thanks for the thread . . . n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tempest]

4. Wow, big surprise

You've disagreed with everyone in every single post so far.

[shady lane]

7. Is that wrong?

Whats wrong with that? I thought these were discussion forums, not "I agree with him" forums. Thats no fun!

[Forkboy]

8. "Can anyone here play this game?"

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

13. keep trying

[Tempest]

20. What facts???

The only thing you offer is opinion.

And your opinion seems to be far from what the everyday Democrat believes.

[TaleWgnDg]

23. uuummmmm :::gulp::: sure, go ahead . . . n/t

[InvisibleBallots]

32. please, choose one side or another

Social Security is being privatized, so we need more culture warriors of the left and right to distract everyone. So far, it's working GREAT, but no time to let up.

[RUDUing2]

5. I was raised SB and have sat through sermon after sermon about

as a child and teen on how the RCC is the whore of Babylon and the Pope is anti-christ and Catholics are idolators who will burn in hell and are trying to steal your children to turn them into the same...

I have had my children told that they are not christians and need to come to *their* church (usually AoG or SB) to *hear the word of God and be saved*..

I have had my daughter be told by a friend that she can't spend the night on a Saturday night and go to church with her cause the RCC is a tool of satan...

I have had my bil refuse to attend his own fathers Catholic funeral because it would be a sin for him to enter a catholic church...

I have sat at my moms funeral and listened as the preacher said Catholics worship false idols and gods...

Sorry but to me that is hate and contempt..(no not all behave that way, but those that don't also don't behave that way towards atheist either)

[Warpy]

19. I had the experience of having an Irish Catholic mother

and a Jewish last name when my family moved to NC. To say I was unprepared for the level of hate from people who were SB is an understatement. My experiences with them have left a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the south for decades.

Since then, I've met a few of the ones who got the point, who didn't buy into the hate. However, hate seems to be one of their church traditions, supplanting Christian tolerance and forgiveness.

Moyers, Carter and Clinton are in the minority, I fear.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. That's really rough. In my post #21, I discussed a

positive experience with Southern Baptists but your experience seems to be more common, sadly.

[Wisc Badger]

29. One of the most moral

and upstanding man I ever knew was a catholic and he would put many baptist to shame.

Catholic is also Christian.

BTW: I am Baptist (General Conference)

:hi:

[RUDUing2]

31. wow a Baptist Cubs fan telling a Catholic Cards fan Hi!...

talk about miracles!...

[loveable liberal]

14. so you agree that gays should have equal rights?

If you agree to oppress, you hate. If you judge other religions as being less then yours, you hate. I'm so sick and tired of christians who think they have the world market cornered on righteousness. WWJD? He would have politely asked the new neo-con "greed is good" christians to 'get off my side'.

[idiosyncratic]

16. I believe gays should have equal rights and be able to marry. n/t

[loveable liberal]

15. you mean know, not "know" i hope....hehehehehhe

[pelagius]

22. I strenuously disagree.

Anti-Catholicism is very real and prevalent in many evangelical churches. I'm not saying this because of something I read on the Internet -- although if you google "Roman Catholic Church" you'll get all the evidence you need -- but from 25 years of membership in these types of churches.

If your experience is different, you are blessed.

I quite agree with you that "conservatives" and "Christians" are often unfairly called hateful here on DU and that many of the people I treasure most in my own life proudly wear both labels. I think they are wrong on certain topics, but it's not gotten in the way of our fellowship.

[Dorian Gray]

41. I guess that this is true

but I grew up in the north (New Jersey, Boston, and New York City), in towns where Roman Catholics were well represented. I never once came against any bigotry against Catholicism until my twenties, when I went to Mississippi. Even then, it was pretty mild. People were more curious about my faith than anything else.

There is prejudice everywhere, and I don't believe it doesn't exist. I've never really come across it as an roadblock to my faith, though. I, personally, have never felt persecuted.

[trotsky]

28. Fundies don't hate, huh?

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you... I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue (The News-Sentinal, Fort Wayne, Ind., 8/16/93)

[wicket]

36. TOMBSTONED!

HAHAHAHA!!! See ya, asshole!!!! :kick:

[brainshrub]

3. No.

[atreides1]

6. I Don't

But then again I don't really associate with any fundie xtians, that and the fact that I'm 6'2" and weigh 298lbs, and I'm pretty well known for my opinions about the pretend xtians, not many approach me much less try to intimidate me.

And I've already stated that anyone that believes in a theocratic US is a traitor, and that they should be hung from a light post just like Mussolini, and used as a pinata.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

9. There is still a lot of prejudice against Catholics

I live in a very Catholic area, but I've been told that I'm going to hell and that my religion is a cult by Fundies. I travel a lot for business and for some reason (I'm friendly? I look like a nice person?), these prosletyzing hatemongers end up talking to me.

I think the Catholic Church of my youth, which embraced liberation theology, was acting in the true spirit of Christ. I think there is still a strong strain of that in today's Catholic church.

I don't know any fundies, because most people up in this neck of the woods are too smart to fall for snake oil salesmen. Also, there is an unwritten rule about wearing religion on your sleeve up here. Fundies asking about my religious beliefs is akin to discussing family secrets or bodily functions.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. You're showing another sort of prejudice when you say

"I don't know any fundies, because most people up in this neck of the woods are too smart to fall for snake oil salesmen."

Nobody down South but dumb asses, huh? Explain Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, John Edwards, etc. Explain Martin Luther King, Jr. Explain Flannery O'Connor, William Faulkner, Tennessee Williams, and all the other great Southern writers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. It doesn't display prejudice; it explains regional differences regarding

religion. There are definitely more churchgoers down south, and the north is more secular. There are hardly any Baptists up here; I didn't know a Protestant until I went away to college. Everyone was Catholic, Jewish, or atheist/agnostic.

I think there's a willingness down South to look for satisfaction or completion through religion, so if you find my comment about snake oil salesmen objectionable, that's your prerogative. It's funny to accuse someone of prejudice whose grandmother is from Tennessee and who has quite a few Confederate soldiers among her ancestors.

The oversensitivity around here lately is really over the top, but then again, I'm an outspoken, brash Yankee.

[Cheswick2.0]

46. This is Cambridge Ma you are talking about?

And you are suggesting that there are no Protestants ? I'll bet you knew plenty of Protestants but they didn't talk about religion.
That section of the country is WASP central.

United Church of Christ/Congregational Church

Church of the Covenant
67 Newbury Street
Boston, MA 02116
617-266-7480 (church office)
617-266-3169 (pastorsÍ lines)

First Church in Cambridge
11 Garden St.
Cambridge, MA 02138
617-547-2724


Old South Church
Boylston Street
Boston, MA 02116
617-536-1970


Boston Eliot Congregational Church of Roxbury, UCC
56 Dale Street
Roxbury, MA 02119
617-445-7525


Boston Saint Mark Congregational Church, UCC
200 Townsend Street
Roxbury, MA 02121
617-442-0481


Cambridge First Korean United Church of Christ
35 Magazine Street
Cambridge, MA 02139-3959
617-491-1474


Cambridge North-Prospect Congregational UCC
1803 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02140
617-547-1448


Cambridge Harvard Korean UCC
1803 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02140
[phone]


United Community of Roxbury, UCC
116 Roxbury Street
Roxbury, MA 02119-1524
617-427-8192

Top of Page


Presbyterian Church, USA


Cambridge Presbyterian Church
1418 Cambridge Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-354-3151

Church of the Covenant
67 Newbury Street
Boston, MA 02118
617-266-7480 (church office)
617-266-3169 (pastorsÍ lines)


Clarendon Hill Presbyterian Church
155 Powder House Boulevard
Somerville, MA 02144
617-625-4823

Fourth Presbyterian Church
340 Dorchester Street
South Boston, MA 02127
617-268-1281

Hyde Park Presbyterian Church
1109 River Street
Hyde Park, MA 02136
617-361-0051


Iglesia Hispana Presbyterian
455 Arborway
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
617-983-0581


Korean Church of Boston, Presbyterian
32 Harvard Street
Brookline Village, MA 02445
617-739-2663

Roxbury Presbyterian Church
328 Warren St & Woodbine
Roxbury, MA 02119
617-445-2116

Taiwan Presbyterian Church of Greater Boston
1458 Great Plain Avenue
Needham, MA 02492
781-431-9804
[e-mail]

Young Sang Presbyterian Church
270 Franklin Street
Quincy, MA 02169
617-770-2755
[e-mail]

Top of Page


United Methodist Church


Union United Methodist Church
485 Columbus Avenue
Boston, Massachusetts 02118
617-536-0872


Grace United Methodist Church
56 Magazine Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-864-1123


Harvard-Epworth United Methodist Church
1555 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138
617-354-0837


Church of All Nations
333 Tremont Street
Boston, MA 02116 USA
617-357-5777

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American Baptist Church


Arabic Evangelist Church
165 Friend Street
Boston, MA 02110
617-723-9766


Ebenezer Baptist Church
196 West Springfield Street
Boston, MA 02118
617-262-7739


Tremont Temple Baptist Church
88 Tremont Street
Boston, MA 02108
617-523-7320


Old Cambridge Baptist Church
1151 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02138
617-864-9275 (Church Office)
617-864-8068 (Pastor's Office)


Twelfth Baptist Church
150 Warren Street
Roxbury, MA 02119
617-442-7855


First Baptist Church
5 Magazine Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-354-3062


Mass Ave Baptist Church
146 Hampshire Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-868-4853


Union Baptist Church
874 Main Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-864-6885


Iglesia Bautista Central
459 Putnam Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
617-547-7159

Top of Page

Non-denominational campus-based worship services

Marsh Chapel
735 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617-353-3560

MIT Chapel


Harvard: Morning Prayer in the Celtic Tradition
Old Cambridge Baptist Church
1121 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge
617-864-9275 (Church Office)


Top of Page

[sandnsea]

11. Persecuted is a bit much

As a very lax Catholic, I have felt angst, I suppose, when fundie churches teach that we're not Christians. And when I've seen little booklets saying the Church is the whore of Babylon. And I've had the fundies say this stuff to my face, out of love I guess. :eyes:

There's also a more subtle discrimination, of anybody who doesn't attend a church. That's more prevalent when you've got kids in school, with particular teachers.

I don't find Christians to be all happy and giving and rosy, regardless of what church they go to. I think any Christian who tries to push that noise is in denial.

[juliagoolia]

12. They are still trying to save me

I am offended by it. I think some extremist would feel no sin or shame in letting me burn in hell for eternity.

Since I was not saved in the exact way they think I should have been saved, dunked, and speaking in tongues(some of them).. I am not saved.

They pray for me! Not for good things to happen for me, but that I will see the light and finally come around. I am offended.

I don't want them changing me, and I don't want to change them.

I am a spiritual non-denominational Christian. I am not religious or dogmatic, and that seems to bother most of them.

I do not believe in the "Devil" and that seems to bother them more than the fact I believe Jesus spoke truth in the face of injustice and hypocrisy.

[earthside]

17. Persecuted? I was.

I was raised as a Missouri Synod Lutheran. Even in my youth I was a liberal ... and back then a Democrat. I listened to my minister tell us in Bible class that President kennedy was shot because God disapproved of him. I had a woman member of the church, who was also on the school board, flat tell me that I just could not be a Democrat and a Christian. Several times I was harrassed by an older gentleman who pretended he wanted to "discuss' political issues, but who always ended up bullying me and brerating me.

Now, I am no longer a Lutheran (though I appreciate the anti-establishment origins of Lutheranism). And, as far as Protestant sects go, Lutherans tend to be less political than, say, Southern Bapstists.

But I can attest that conservative and fundamentalist "Christians" persecute members of their own congregation if they are political liberals.

What finally drove me from the Lutheran Church and establishment Christianity was the realization that they don't care for Jesus very much ... they prefer the theology of Paul. When a freshman in college I read Tolstoy's "What I Believe" -- that lead me to reading just the four Gospels. I then saw that actually, in fact, it would be very difficult to be a warmongering, social Darwinist Republican and be a true follower of what Jesus really taught. Go read the Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 5, 6 and 7 - and you'll see what I mean.

In otherwords, as Thomas Jefferson put it ... I prefer the religion OF Jesus, not a religion ABOUT Jesus.

[juliagoolia]

25. ding ding ding ding ding

YOU WIN!
ME TOO!

I tend to Believe Jesus more than Believe IN the 'bible' a book, or a 'religion' about jesus.

John Is my favorite, that and St Thomas Gospel from Nag Hamdi library.. aka Dead Sea Scrolls. Written BEFORE the other Gospels probably! Really Gospel of St Thomas is just sayings of Jesus.

[InvisibleBallots]

33. Nag Hammadi and the DSS are completey different

They are completely different groups of writings, from different sects, and represent completely different traditions. Neither can be said to be written "before the other Gospels".

[juliagoolia]

42. You are right of course.. tired dazed and confused!

There is a growing consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels. During the first few decades after its discovery several voices representing established orthodox biases argued that the Gospel of Thomas
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

You are right about the Dead Sea Scroll.. and them being CE but not the same sect. also found around the same time within a couple of years of each other.

dunno what I was thinking..

But MEANT the Nag Hammadi texts which were from a group maybe a hundred years later the gnostics.

Historical comments
It was on a December day in the year of 1945, near the town of Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt, that the course of Gnostic studies was radically renewed and forever changed. An Arab peasant, digging around a boulder in search of fertilizer for his fields, happened upon an old, rather large red earthenware jar. Hoping to have found buried treasure, and with due hesitation and apprehension about the jinn, the genie or spirit who might attend such an hoard, he smashed the jar open with his pick. Inside he discovered no treasure and no genie, but books: more than a dozen old papyrus books, bound in golden brown leather.6 Little did he realize that he had found an extraordinary collection of ancient texts, manuscripts hidden up a millennium and a half before (probably deposited in the jar around the year 390 by monks from the nearby monastery of St. Pachomius) to escape destruction under order of the emerging orthodox Church in its violent expunging of all heterodoxy and heresy.

I personally am very happy they saved them in the jar so I could read them later!!!

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.. I will be more careful about 'details' ..(important details at that)!

[nemo137]

18. persecuted, no. irritated, yes.

I believe in the same God that they do, and I'm trying to obey the command to do justice and love mercy, why isn't that good enough?

[pelagius]

24. Naaah....

...you're probably not sex-obsessed enough. You probably think the Gospel has more to do with living a Christlike life than it does about making sure two dudes don't get married. Get with it! :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

21. The fundies consider Catholics not to be Christians and

more than a few in the mainstream churches agree with them.

To give just one example, I went to a college that had a covenant relationship with the Presbyterian Church and required faculty members to sign a pledge that they were Protestant Christians. Thus we had a couple who both taught French but he did it as a full faculty member while she, being French and Catholic, was an adjunct for her entire career there. She was said to be the better teacher of the two, which, having languished in his class for half a semester, I can well believe.

Southern Baptists have a reputation for being narrow and fundamentalist in their outlook, and some of them are, but years later I taught at a Southern Baptist-affiliated college where being Catholic was not forbidden to the faculty. When I was being interviewed for the faculty position, the president asked me if I went to church and if I was active in my church, and, after learning that I was Catholic, told me that his grandfather had been Catholic, which I chose to take as a pleasant remark.

To go back to the original post, my answer to all the questions would be "Yes, to some degree."

[EC]

26. sorry shady lane, you're not paying attention

Catholics are considered heathens...I hired a girl to work for me and she had to have her pastor come and approve me first, because I was Catholic and that made me a heathen and she wasn't supposed to come into contact with heathens...Well, I didn't hire her, after meeting her pastor (how wore so much cologne, I didn't even want to shake his hand or get even that close) because, I asked him who else was considered heathen...he said anyone not of their faith...I said well she'll have to wait on customers, including putting shoes on their feet, and many of them were Jewish, Catholic, Muslim etc. because it was a higher end dept. store. He said he didn't like it, but gave his approval and would talk to her about how to behave around the other "heathens". I felt she wouldn't be able to do her job with complete friendliness and total attention.

[bobweaver]

30. Christians have not followed the teachings of Christ. (Sermon on the Mount

[carnie_sf]

50. How true

I find that the fundies tend to ignore the book of Matthew entirely.

[catbert836]

34. Yes, yes. yes, yes, yes.

All of the above.

[Lefty48197]

38. Here are my answers:

yes
no
no, I criticize freely
not really
yes
yes

[InvisibleBallots]

39. flattery accepted!

:)

[RUDUing2]

45. lol..just trying to give a bit of perspective..that the fundies who

persecute atheist are equal opportunity bigots..they are against anyone who believes differently then what they deem the *right* thing...jews, catholics, liberals, atheist, pagans, etc..they are all the same in their eyes..but for some reason catholics really chap them..they seem to reserve their worst vitorol for RC's and Jews, even above and beyond atheist..they rarely preach and teach against atheism in church but they do against RC's and Jews..yes actually sermons and in their sunday school classes..

[Dorian Gray]

40. No...

I don't feel persecuted by any group. (Religious fundamentalists or secularists.) I am Roman Catholic, and I'm pretty religious. But, in the end, I keep my religion to myself. I've had some good friends actually make fun of me in regard to my faith, but I don't particularly mind. I feel that we each need to find our own path to what we believe to be the truth. Nobody in this world has blocked my path, so I'm good! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. My answers

1. Not persecuted, but ignored by the mainstream media and despised by fundamentalists for being "soft." Their publications warn against people like me.
2. No feeling of physical danger
3. I try to be diplomatic in my criticisms, but I call people on what I see as misinterpretations of the Bible.
4. Yes, I think that Jesus was a liberal.
5. Well, the only time we've had a fundamentalist Christian government here has been during this administration, and I'm constantly on edge at the way they conveniently link Christianity with war and economic exploitation.
6. There haven't been fundamentalist Christian governments in Europe in my lifetime, or indeed, for centuries.

[TreasonousBastard]

44. Personally, no...

since I've rarely, if ever, had anyone get into my face about my religion. Of course, around here it's tough to get into anybody's face about religion since we're so diverse. I buy my newspapers from a Hindu, my gas from a Sikh, dinner from a Greek Orthodox, some groceries from a Catholic, my next door neighbor is a Buddhist, I work with a few Muslims, and a huge Orthodox synagogue and schul is around the corner.

Have I left anyone out? I have dealings with Wiccans, animists and the Fundies from the local black and hispanic charismatic churches, too. No one wants to get into a shouting match over religion around here.

But, I see the rising tide of the Great Awakening coming over the country again. Historically, the US has had waves of Protestant intolerance, and it's happening again. And not just any Protestants-- Evangelical Lutherans, UCC, about half of the Methodists, Episcopalians and Presbyterians... all Bad People as defined by the True Believers, and doomed to hellfire.

It's not religion, it's power. Some people do genuinely believe that other churches or religions are in error, after all that's why we have so many, but most just live and let live. Not the people orchestrating this nonsense, though. They are trying to use religion as a wedge to divide and conquer us.

And it seems to be working so far.

[supernova]

47. As a liberal christian in the US, no I really don't

I don't experience persecution personally. My church is not fundamentalist and I don't know anyone who is, even here in the bible belt.

You are correct in that to more fundamentalist denoms I'm not a "true-believer."

If you want to talk about persecution of xtains as a group, I direct your attention to Darfur.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Don't you mean Southern Sudan?

Because practically everyone in Darfur is a Muslim.

[carnie_sf]

49. Absolutely

I feel that in the current religious/(non)sprirtual climate I can't tell anyone that I'm a christian. It always seems that saying one is a christian will lead to being associated with those heretical, book-burning, anti-christian pharisees who have stolen our religion. However, if I use the life of Jesus Christ as a guide (which I feel is the only thing that qualifies one as a true christian) then I should be willing to endure all manner of persecution to spread the truth.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

51. No, I mean not really.

There are a lot of fundie lunatics out there, but it's more the political persecution that gets me ("if you're a liberal Dem, then you're not really Christian").