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Fundie on a neutral board sent me link. Einstein was a Christian. "sigh"!

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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:22 PM
Original message
Fundie on a neutral board sent me link. Einstein was a Christian. "sigh"!
At least that is how he is interpeting this article.
http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_1/torrance.htm
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. i thought he was a naturalistic pantheist
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CGrantt57 Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Einstein was a Christian.
If he was, he was a non-religious one.

Then again, the best ones seem to eschew religion.

"God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein.

"Albert, don't tell God what to do." Neils Bohr.

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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Einstein was Jewish. Send him this:
Edited on Sat Apr-15-06 04:28 PM by FLDem5
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/lastthoughts.html

"Just as he dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his scientific beliefs during the last year or so of his life, so did he recapitulate his religious convictions. To Dr. Douglas he stated: “If I were not a Jew I would be a Quaker.”
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. People can argue over Einstein and religion all they want.
The really unarguable thing about the man is that he was a straight up Socialist.

Which ironically did not get mentioned in the Time issue that named him Man of The Century.

Read about it in his own words.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Thank you for saying that. And you're right. -- n/t
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think he was a non-observant Jew.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. Alot of physical scientists were and are
Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. However, extremists on either side sometimes like to make battles where there are none.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. You are so right!
Another big problem is that often all Christians get
lumped together with the extreme RR, fundie heretics.

These fruitcakes do not follow Jesus and they certainly
do not speak for a vast majority of Christians.

Again, to reiterate your statement;

Science and Faith are not mutually exclusive.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't know if he was or not
And I don't care. Lots of scientists are believers. I believe Stephen Hawking is a devout Catholic (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). That doesn't mean they want to impose their faith on other people, and it sure as hell doesn't mean they want to live in a theocracy.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. He's not a devout Catholic at all.
Most likely from his writings I would say he's a fairly soft agnostic.
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Yoda Yada Donating Member (474 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. I believe there is a website....
(Einsteinandreligion.com) which covers this topic. I think Einstein felt religion and science could co-exist.

( A "very religious" President Carter has an extensive science background also....and believes that the two can co-exist as well. It is the Fundies that believe it must be one or the other.)
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Who cares.. It doesn't matter in the least
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" -Einstein
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Vetinarii Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. So what?
Many of the greatest minds of the past 1500+ years have been Christians. Many others haven't.

And the same is true of the stupidest and smallest minds.

Einstein was a physicist, who came up with some interesting and powerful theories in that field. That doesn't mean he's any less likely to be wrong about anything else than the rest of us.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. His rave was that Xtians invented or discovered everything scientific.
"If it werent for Xtians we'd still be living in caves and trees." And other delightful bullshit like that.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. People lived in trees until the Christians came along?
:rofl:
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Maybe he forgot
about the muslim, chinese, hindu etc empires.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Did someone (who can read and write) really say that?
Someone needs to learn a little history, don't they? :eyes:









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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. Link?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Einstein's cosmology didn't boil down to an easy label. He was often
Edited on Sat Apr-15-06 04:50 PM by Old Crusoe
pressed for his views on the subject and once said:

_ _ _ _

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description."

_ _ _ _

The fundies might want Einstein in their camp but Einstein was by no means so easily reduced.
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PetraPooh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. If he was, and I'm not convinced that he was truly religious at all,
because back in those days as now, many people claim religious affiliation just to keep from being demonized as an athiest. Nonetheless, even if he was religious, it actually makes his findings even more credible and worth recognition, because it suggests he didn't come by them or report them lightly or in an adversarial perspective; as might be suspected of a true athiest. So I am sort of guessing from what I read here and have vague remembrance of reading elsewhere, it isn't so much that he wasn't a christian when he started, but that the christians of the time and their reactions to his findings, convinced him to no longer be christian. I do recall it being reported that he denounced such things close to the end of his life and it would make sense that his scientific findings and thought processes would ultimately outweigh his childhood and early adult religious teachings (taught to him not by him) that society was compelled to re-inforce as worthier than they were.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. and there are many christians that are NOT religious. one is not a given
to the other.

for me relgion in and of itself is man word and contaminates christs message. i am very much a christian ergo i stay as far away from religion as i can, for personal preference in walking my journey in christs lite.

christ is within. we are all able to hear christs words, we dont need a "man" voice to hear, wink

if you believe.

and if you dont, none of this matters
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. That's a balanced religious
philosophy!
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. Nope, he was genuine, it follows from the way he thought.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. maveric, it would be interesting to hear what the person who sent you
the link has to say about some of the posts here in this thread.

JanMichael is absolutely right about the Socialist Einstein, and others here have offered quotations from Einstein's own lips that would not seem to endorse "Christianity" per say for the good doctor.

Give us a follow-up after you next contact this person. It would be interesting to see what the reaction is.

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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:16 PM
Original message
Sigh
If the misinterpretation of ten commandments by fundies post belongs in Religion/Theology, then this one certainly does...
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NJ Democrats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. He was Jewish! That is why he left Germany during WWII
He was also offered the Presidency of Israel, and is on on of Israel's currency notes.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. More quotes from einstein. He was NOT a Christain.

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him."

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

"There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair."
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Judging from this...
I would call him an "Atheist-Lite".
If he was a Christian, his belief would have overshadowed his scientific findings.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. Einstein was a Christian........ i am too. so? what is the point?
:shrug:
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That Einstein had nothing to do with Christianity
Ethnically, he was Jewish, but he was non-observant. Looking at quotes from him over the years, he may have been atheist, pantheist, deist or agnostic. We can be absolutely certain he wasn't Christian.

There's a quote attributed to him: "If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew." Evidently, hew should have added "and fundie Christians will claim I'm Christian" to the "if it's right" bit - but while all the other descriptions of him have some validity, 'Christian' doesn't - he didn't think anyone would be that stupid (or maybe dishonest).

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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. How are you certain about Einstein's belief?
How are you sure?....are you wishing?
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. Einstein was sort of a pantheist/atheist.
I think just as it was dangerous for him to come out of the closet as a socialist, so it was dangerous for him to come out as an atheist. But he leaves a number of clues. I think this statement sums his beliefs up.

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity; in this sense, and this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein

He was deeply religious in that sense alone, but as Dawkins describes in the following article, it really isn't religion in the accepted sense, otherwise he would also be considered religious. But I suspect that if he were around now, he would simply come out as an atheist. Most atheists that I know have that same feeling of awe in nature, but don't describe it as a religious feeling, but do describe it as a transcendant feeling, a feeling of awe. So, I think Einstein was kind of avoiding being cornered as an atheist.

if you count Einstein and Hawking as religious, if you allow the cosmic awe of Goodenough, Davies, Sagan, and me as true religion, then religion and science have indeed merged, especially when you factor in such atheistic priests as Don Cupitt and many university chaplains. But if the term religion is allowed such a flabbily elastic definition, what word is left for conventional religion, religion as the ordinary person in the pew or on the prayer mat understands it today--indeed, as any intellectual would have understood it in previous centuries, when intellectuals were religious like everybody else?

If God is a synonym for the deepest principles of physics, what word is left for a hypothetical being who answers prayers, intervenes to save cancer patients or helps evolution over difficult jumps, forgives sins or dies for them? If we are allowed to relabel scientific awe as a religious impulse, the case goes through on the nod. You have redefined science as religion, so it's hardly surprising if they turn out to "converge."

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1999-10-04snakeoil.shtml

He has also said that if he wasn't a Jew he would be a Quaker. Also that Buddhism was a religion that was compatible with science. And that he didn't believe in a personal god, that he believed in the god of Spinoza. So, I would say he was a pantheist/atheist.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. More like pantheist/agnostic.
Edited on Sat Apr-15-06 08:58 PM by silverweb
How can any kind of theism be compatible with atheism?

Humble, open-minded, cosmos-based awe and uncertainty, however, are more in line with what I think dear Albert was describing... and that would be a perfectly compatible pantheistic agnosticism.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. I don't think he believed in a theism.
He did use God on occasion, but I think it was only to refer to his way of thinking about the nature and the universe. Dawkins does a fair job of explaining this. But most scientists or naturalists are atheists, though they often have profound feelings of awe or sense of depth and beauty in nature. It's only natural. Even I am a "religious" man when it comes to my feelings about nature, but I'm an atheist. :)

But this says it pretty clearly.

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity; in this sense, and this alone, I am a deeply religious man."


Steven Hawking is just as coy though.

Larry King: Do you believe in God?
Stephen Hawking: Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe.
Larry King Live, December 25, 1999


But if God is just an equation, does that fit the mormal definition of God? So, probably he was between a natural pantheist of the Spinoza type (which he says) and an atheist. But it was not safe to come out as an atheist in his time.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. ...



go figure.
dp
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
33. send these Einstein quotes
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. -- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. -- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930


Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being. -- Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann


I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. -- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted from James A. Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)


However we select from nature a complex using the criterion of simplicity, in no case will its theoretical treatment turn out to be forever appropriate (sufficient).... I do not doubt that the day will come when , too, will have to yield to another one, for reasons which at present we do not yet surmise. I believe that this process of deepening theory has no limits. -- Albert Einstein, acknowledging that all claims to knowledge are de facto subject to revision upon presentation of newer, better evidence, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Physics and Psychics


I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. -- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. -- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930


The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism....
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.
Immortality? There are two kinds. The first lives in the imagination of the people, and is thus an illusion. There is a relative immortality which may conserve the memory of an individual for some generations. But there is only one true immortality, on a cosmic scale, and that is the immortality of the cosmos itself. There is no other. -- Albert Einstein, quoted in Madalyn Murray O'Hair, All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists (1982) vol. ii., p. 29


I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
-- Albert Einstein, The World as I See It




The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....
If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life.
-- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. They'll claim Einstein because he was intelligent...
but not Hitler.:wtf:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. So you also figured out the rules of the game
People who are smart and/or do great things get claimed as Christians even if they themselves state otherwise.

People who are not so smart and/or do bad things are disowned by Christians no matter how emphatically they themselves state that they are Christians.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
38. Fundies will accept all kinds of nonsense about history, because
basically, they're ignorant of history, thanks to the fine old American tradition of leaving high school history teaching to the football coach, who doesn't give a rat's ass anyway and just goes through the motions.

Their leaders can tell them any sort of nonsense ("The founding fathers were devout Christians" "Christians today are as persecuted as the Jews were in Nazi Germany"), and they believe it, not only because they're predisposed to accept authority unquestioningly, but because they have no intellectual ammunition to resist it.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Einstein was ethnically Jewish, but not theologically. He was a bit
of a Pantheist and Buddhist.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
41. And thus a new meme is born
It's not true, but it doesn't matter if it's true or not. The thing is the keep repeating in and spreading it among those who won't and don't care to know better.
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