Poll: How is your spiritual development?

[Ron Green]

As a person who believes in God but who does not meet with a group or practice any sort of ritual, I'm always interested in where people in this forum are coming from, and how their beliefs have evolved over time. My question is this: Have you followed a path of belief or non-belief all your life, or has it changed, and how?

My own history has been from a believer in a personalized God (as a child, taught in church albeit a rather liberal one) to an atheist, to now a believer in a Unity, a God without personality or wishes, but who exists as love shared among the beings of all creation.

I compare this development to an individual's dependence as a child (fundamentalism), independence as a young adult (atheism/agnosticism), and interdependence as a mature adult (a more global kind of spiritual awareness and connection).

What about your experience? I have divided us into "younger" and "older" in the assumption that a longer life affords more time to become who we will become.

[Teaser]

1. I sold my soul

I wasn't using it anyway. And I got a new car out of the deal!

[Ron Green]

2. LOL - I think I had a better car when I wasn't using my soul, too!

[Mr_Spock]

3. I believe god is the "good" that keeps man from destroying himself

"God" is "good" with one "o" removed after all.

I am very much like you describe yourself - and I'm over 40 (though I've believed this since I was about 12).

I can't figure out which poll selection fits me?

[cain_7777]

10. Good is found with or without god

Morals and values have nothing to with god or belief in religion. Differing cultures around the world have the basic tenents of the commandments of christianty. Thou shalt not kill, honor thy mother and father and so on. More people have been murdered in Gods name and commit atrocities in his name than the actual good his believers do.

[Mr_Spock]

11. You must have meant to post that to someone else.

I simply stated that I thought the concept of god was the good than holds mankind together. It's a concept that I believe in.

I just made an affirmative statement with no religious conotations.

:smoke:

[cain_7777]

17. Why Specifically god...

and are we really held together? Not all people believe in the same god if any at all and we ban together in factions of similar belief/culture. If anything the concept of God separates us.




edited for grammar

[Ron Green]

18. I think our separate CONCEPTS of God separate us,

but God, if there is such, is eternal and infinite, and therefore includes all of us.

[Mr_Spock]

27. Thanks for helping out

To me the concept of God is a force that is common amongst all of us, no matter what silly capital "G" god they may worship in their little community centers - some of which have pointy tops.

My concept is even different that yours - I wonder why the other poster feels like we must be molded into the one concept that separates and destroys us? That is NOT the god I believe in!

[cain_7777]

31. So you believe god is the force that causes good?

just trying to understand your perception of the forces of god. Would that take away from free will at all?

[Mr_Spock]

32. It's simply the force of mankind

If we were inherently evil, we would have destroyed ourselves long ago. There is an inherent "goodness" that we share - every single last one of us - and that is my concept of god.

This concept has no bearing whatsoever on freewill.

[cain_7777]

41. Couldn't the "goodness" simply be a social construct for our own survival.

Therefore we created god

[Mr_Spock]

47. You can think of it like that if you wish

If you want to make god into a concept that we created & have control over, that's fine. Clearly we created the concept of God with a capital "G", but that is a ridiculous construct to me. As if God was some omnipresent being that looked like a man with long flowing white hair :rofl: :puke: . People make me laugh with their pitiful insecurities. People want life to be complicated when it's really as simple as everyone is afraid it is. :)

The cohesive force - a "good" force in my opinion - is with all of us whether we care to acknowledge it or not. That's god to me.

In my world, god is an abstract concept. It is an invisible cohesion that we have as a species. I can feel it.

[Ron Green]

37. I think that our free will allows us to choose to love others or not.

And if we choose to love (very difficult, when you consider loving George W. Bush or Sean Hannity), then we are "with God." If we choose not to connect (often the more comfortable choice), we're separated from God.

[kwassa]

12. and how did you measure that?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. You wrote:

" More people have been murdered in Gods name and commit atrocities in his name than the actual good his believers do."


How can you possibly know that? How can anyone? Just one example: hospitals are institutions that grew out of Christianity. I wouldn't put forth that more good has been done than ill, because I have no idea. And I don't see how anyone could.

[beam me up scottie]

67. I agree with you, T.Grannie, about not being able to know the answer .

But you're not saying that christians were responsible for the first hospitals, are you?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

68. No, not the first ones

but they have done the occasional good work now and then! If I had to take a guess, I'd say it is probably a wash, because that's the way life usually evens out.

But we just don't know.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Of course they have.

And a great many hospitals were started by religious institutions.

Although these days I wish they'd stay out of the health care business.

Every time I hear about the christian pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions for the morning after pill, I start to hyperventilate. :mad:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

70. I like to think that they (the pharmacists)

are ringers....a vocal group in an otherwise fine profession.

[beam me up scottie]

72. Not for long.

If the Kentucky governor has anything to say about it.

He cut funding in this year's budget for WKYU and Louisville college and is trying to fork over millions to a private baptist college who recently kicked out a student for being gay.

The project he's bankrolling?

A pharmacy school.

:mad:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

73. Oh geez

[Selatius]

4. I'm a Deist now, and I'm under 40

My belief in God is still rather strong, but I view him as more of a watcher than a participant in human events although I don't necessarily preclude he gives nudges from time to time. If there's war, we did it to ourselves, and it isn't God's doing. When innocent people die, or when the corrupt win elections, I don't ask God, "Why didn't you stop it?" anymore. God instilled in us free will, and we abused it. It wasn't God's responsibility; it's our own, and we shouldn't expect God to bail us out every time.

We are free to hurt and hate just as we are free to help and love. We have to solve the problems we create for ourselves in order to learn as a people.

I left the Catholic Church because I have no faith in organized religion. I'm a freethinker now, and I voluntarily chose to follow Deism much like Thomas Paine and other Founders have followed.

[ceile]

5. My beliefs have decreased.

I saw the way my Catholic church treated my mother (didn't want her to be an usher or pass the collection plate), then saw how bigoted and masochistic the religion is, and then met people of other faiths and their blind devotion to god and Jesus frightened the bejeebus me. That's the short version.

[Ron Green]

7. I'm guessing that your experience is more common among

people who grew up in rigid or fundamental churches. My own rather liberal church (they didn't even sing loud) didn't scare me so badly that my atheism was permanent. I claimed atheism for about 10 years, but grew out of that eventually.

[medeak]

6. Abe Lincoln said:

"when I do good I feel good....when I do bad I feel bad" best religion of all..

but believe in everything...Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Wicca, Indian sprituality..

every culture on earth believed in some diety...there must have been a higher power that put that need there.

[cain_7777]

26. why must there be a higher power, as in a god?

This is the same argument that Intelligent design fundies say. Oh there must be a higher power because we are too lazy to figure it out on our own. religion came about as a coping mechanism to deal with our emotions of losing a member of the group. As our minds developed we became conscience of self and realized the finality of death. As we ate more protein our brains grew, our emotions became more developed as our social system became more complex and our lack of knowledge was replaced by what the shamans told us about the spiritual world. The stories became more complex to compete with our growing knowledge of the real world and has evolved to what it is today, the bane of humanity.

[cain_7777]

8. I was raised Catholic, went to sunday school, and became Atheist

I was baptized, went to sunday school, read and learned the bible, had my first holy communion, kept studying the bible, started studying history around the bible, realized the stories were plagiarized from earlier creation myths and other religions of the Mideast and found christianty to be the biggest prank in history. Then I went on to get degrees in English, Biology, Philosophy, and Physics. Now I'm in Grad school finishing up and am heading to Med school next fall. I found that the more knowledge I crammed into my head the less I believed in man's religion and the less knowledge a person has the more fanatic they are of theirs. Our knowledge is growing and the inevitable outcome will be the strangling of that mind numbing bane of humanity, religion.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

66. I find your post

just a tad arrogant. Not your recital of your credentials..we are all proud of our accomplishments. But the concept that educated, intelligent people do not believe in God. Perhaps when you are done cramming your brain in med school you'll have time and room to add some wisdom.

[TriSec]

9. It was easy to follow dogma...

as a child, when I didn't know any better.

As I grew older and started to read and think on my own, I came to the realization that whatever goodness may have been given to mankind by "god" was hijacked long ago by man to support his own narrow purposes.

On the rare ocassions that I find it necessary to talk to God...I go to him directly. I don't need a stinkin' pedophile priest to help me. (I can say that, I'm in Boston.)

I've dabbled around the various protestant religions off and on...but seem to have given up organized religion for good in the past 2 years or so.

And I'm only 'just' under 40....until August, anyway. :nerves:

[redqueen]

34. Hi TriSec!

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[trotsky]

13. I think it's rather easy to take your post as an insult.

That way, anyone who isn't just like you is obviously an immature child (fundie) or a rebellious yet naive young adult (atheist).

[Ron Green]

14. Hi, Trotsky - some people will be insulted no matter what.

Best wishes anyway!

:hi:

[trotsky]

15. OK, glad you are concerned for the feelings of others.

Not.

And some people wonder why atheists have a tough time showing proper "respect" for believers.

[Ron Green]

16. Don't let opinion bring you down.

You're in the majority here, as evidenced by the responses so far to this poll. My opinion, that child-like belief to pure independent logic to spiritual connection is a ususal mode of human development, is just that: my opinion. You're more than capable of defending your particular point of view, here on the "Religion/Theology" forum.

[kwassa]

19. My path is slightly different

Having been brought up a Unitarian, I was brought up without belief at all. Independent logic from the get-go. The spiritual connection developed later in life.

Though I worship in an Episcopal church, my approach is far more eclectic, and not far off from yours. It sounds like, from some other statements that you have made, that you studied A Course in Miracles. Am I right in this?

Or, I read the same book as you by Mary Ann Williamson.

[Ron Green]

25. A Course in Miracles

Yes; this is one of the simplest (and most repetetive) things in my library, and yet somehow the most difficult and profound.

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

[trotsky]

20. Interesting.

Yet when an atheist offers up the opinion that religious belief is immature, or maybe that as one ages and becomes more fearful of death, belief is a false temptation - a security blanket, perhaps - they're descended upon as "bashing" religion and believers. New threads are launched at just how harsh DU is to the believers we need to win elections. And so forth.

Fascinating, this double standard.

[sybylla]

21. That is rather curious...

And I find it rather stunning how easily we buy into that double standard, even as Atheists and Agnostics.

[Ron Green]

24. I'm not descending on you or on anyone who sees religious belief as

immature. I figure it's your point of view, and since it's one I have myself espoused, I can identify with it. In my view, it's way beyond the blind faith of a child or a fundie.

There are those who are threatened by your independent thinking, and sometimes they react badly. I'm not one of these.

[trotsky]

29. Oh, I just intend on bookmarking this thread

so I can point it out the next time any believer disparages atheists for referring to their beliefs as "fairy tales" or for saying something even more benign. I mean, right here you've said it's A-OK, since it's merely one's opinion, right? And certainly no one should be threatened by a mere opinion!

[Ron Green]

30. It's OK by me, but Pat Robertson might have a different opinion.

(I'm even working on forgiving his sorry ass.)

O8)

[ozone_man]

22. Spirituality doesn't have much to do with God.

I've always been an atheist or agnostic once I was an adolescent and old enough to make a reasoned decision for myself. I think the final step in the maturing process is the realization that this life is all there is, that there is no real meaning of life other than to experience it, to learn, to love, to (try to) give back to the Earth, that which we take. Spirituality derived from belief in a god is a concept taught by religion that will eventually fall by the wayside as we mature.

"Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one."
-- Sigmund Freud

"The rest of our enquiry is made easy because this God-Creator is openly called Father. Psycho-analysis concludes that he really is the father, clothed in the grandeur in which he once appeared to the small child."
-- Sigmund Freud

[kwassa]

38. I disagree. I think spirituality has everything to do with a belief in God

Now what God is, is a much larger and more interesting question.

I have no belief in God as a being. That is anthropomorphism, to me. God to me is more the greater all, something close to what Ron is talking about. The Buddha consciousness.

[ozone_man]

44. Buddhism is incompatible with the notion of God.

The God-Concept and Buddhist Principles

Quite apart from explicit statements refuting the God-idea there is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of God and basic Buddhist principles. We have already mentioned that God cannot be reconciled with the Buddhist notion of causality, which is contained in the theory of "dependent origination" which is one of the discoveries of the Buddha during his enlightenment. Certainly nothing like this theory has been propounded prior to the Buddha.

A fundamental Buddhist belief is that all phenomena without exemption (including all animate beings) have three essential characteristics. These are dukkha (explained above), anicca (impermanence), and anattá (insubstantiality, "no-soul"). The attributes of God are not consistent with these universal marks of existence. Thus God must be free from dukkha; he must be eternal (and hence not subject to anicca); finally he must have a distinct unchanging identity (and therefore lack the characteristic of anattá).

Another concomitant of the God-idea that is fundamentally incompatible with Buddhism is the belief that God acts as the final judge and could determine if individuals go to heaven or hell. According to Buddhism the destination of individuals is determined by the karmic law, which cannot be interfered by any external process. Only individuals can effect their karmic destinies; even a Buddha cannot "pardon" or otherwise interfere with the karmic process. In Buddhism there is simply no place for a God even if one were to exist.

There is also no place for the notion of vicarious salvation, or atonement for human sins by a "suffering" God. The Buddha affirms that "by oneself is kamma done and by oneself is kamma undone". According to Buddhism no one (and this includes gods or God) can save another. This is a cardinal principle of the Buddha, which cannot be reconciled with the declared attributes and actions of God.

The Buddhist path to salvation is based on deeds (including mental culture through "meditation") not prayer. God appears to Buddhists to be a vain being expecting all others to pray to him and worship him. Indeed such prayer seems to be the most decisive factor in a person's salvation, not necessarily any good or bad deeds by him. But as mentioned above in Buddhism it is volitional action with determines the karma of an individual.

There is no doubt some similarities in the moral codes of Buddhism and some theistic religions. Things like compassion are inculcated in all religions. But in Buddhism this does not arise from a heavenly dictate and there is no limitation in the exercise of these virtues as occurs in some theistic religion.

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm

There are certainly many meanings for what is god, but if it is a personal God, one who listens to our prayers, well, I know that he doesn't exist. If by god, you mean all that there is, nature, the cosmos, a pantheistic view of god, then that is a more natural and spiritually wholesome way to think about god. Not that I think that there is a god force in the cosmos, just that is a more wholesome way to base one's spirituality on. An example would be the deists who have an unknowable god, therefore, morality and god's wishes are not interpretable into creeds, which is the biggest harm wrought by organized religions.

I think that spirituality flows from within us, our own conciousness, not from any God.

[Buck Laser]

23. My thoughts seem to keep evolving.

At 71, I've had perhaps more than my share of life-threatening illnesses, and it seems that each one has affected me differently, with different spiritual consequences. However, in the heat of each, my attention was focused more on surviving than on "preparing to meet my maker." When I was 40 and had colon cancer, the support and love of many friends certainly helped pull me through, but there was a near-disastrous depression that followed it. With a heart attack and heart surgery at 62, it was more a feeling of relief that the event had finally happened, and I'd survived (my father died at 63 of a heart attack). The most recent challenge, leukemia in 2005, has actually given me an opportunity for some spiritual growth as I discovered that prayer/meditation only become meaningful for me when when they focus on the needs of another, not on myself. By seeking the healing of another, I seem to find spiritual healing myself.

By way of background, I was a Methodist clergyman from 1960 to 1973, but I've never been a fundamentalist, even from earliest childhood. I left the active clergy in 1967 and went to work in the War on Poverty. Since 1980, I've gone to church only rarely. When I go now, I attend a Unitarian church.

[Ron Green]

28. Thanks for your thoughts.

I like what you said about focusing on the needs of another. I belive that is where we find God, in the love for another human. Our separation from each other in time and space as individual creatures can be overcome as we overcome fear.

[redqueen]

33. Dammit... I just answered that I was over 40... WTF?!

Anyway, I'm not 40 yet, but I chose the last option.

Your description of your journey above matches mine closely... raised catholic, then searched different religions (buddhism, hare krishna, pagan, pentecostal, baptist, etc)... then spent a while as an atheist, but now I just say I'm "spiritual".

I suppose maybe I'm agnostic... I'm not sure really.

[Ron Green]

35. I keep coming back to the idea that God is Love.

And the "free will" piece of it allows us to choose not to participate in this love, which is found by reaching out to other people.

I mean, fear is always with us, right? It stems from the primal fear of nonexistence, I guess, but as long as we're here on earth we're individualized, caught in a separate body and personality. And it seems to me that we're challenged, every day, to face the fear and do the right thing, which is to love others. And to the extent we do that, we're being our God self.

[redqueen]

36. I agree with you completely...

heh... and now I have some silly song in my head...

life is a waterfall, we’re one in the river and one again after the fall

i like it, can't help it :)

[Zhade]

63. "Ariels", by System of a Down - not a silly song by any means.

Terrific album, actually. You have good taste.

[Random_Australian]

39. Well, looks like the stats don't support your hypothesis, oh well.

So much for that idea.

(And anything that tells people they are going to/should change their minds is very, very unwise, might I point out. (As in very difficult to predict cognition of anyone else but yourself, and often even yourself))

[Ron Green]

40. I didn't posit a hypothesis, but if I had it would have been something

like this:

I expect the participants in this poll, as members of DU, to show a distinct bias toward atheism or agnosticism, based on evidence from posts in the Religion/Theology Forum. I would further expect the older members to show a less of a diminishing belief in God, but a greater change back and forth.



I didn't intend to prescribe to anyone that he should change his mind, but simply describe my own experience and relate it to normal human development. I'm not surprised at the numbers so far, and there have been some predictable responses from some familiar posters.

[Random_Australian]

42. Yeh, I know about skewed stats, but if you went to a population rather

than a sample I think you would not find evidence for the proposition that we move through those few cycles; however of course you are free to have done so, but the main problem in attempting to understand the behaviours of others is that it is very difficult ti understand HOW another thinks.

Therefore talking about stages of development is a long and difficult process, but you seem to be making the right first steps (That is, if you recognise that this model does not account for the seen distribution of spirituality by age)

Edited for clarity and to remove stat jargon.

[Evoman]

43. I have no spirituality in the religious sense

I have more wisdom than I did as a child, though I'm not that old anyhow (under 40). If anything, experience and observation of the world around me has only confirmed my atheism. When I was a kid, I was more agnostic. And then I turned 12. And I started reading astronomy books like crazy (almost like an obsession). And I saw no god. And as I grew up, I realized that, to a large extent, the most religious people around me were not only ignorant, but also had a lack of wisdom. My grandfather and some other older atheists I knew had as much, if not more, wisdom and intellegence than the people who believed. I briefly volunteered at an old folks home and realized that most of those old folks, the ones who believed in god (and weren't senile), didn't seem to have any more of a clue than any one else about god. They were just scared of dying. Maybe thats what your "interdependence" is. Fear of death. Fear that even though you are older, maybe you still don't understand anything more about the world than you used to.

I have no clue about anything spiritual. People around me talk about "spirituality" like they have a clue, but deep down inside, I think they are fooling themselves. What is spirituality? Is it wonder at the natural world? I have plenty of that...its what compels me to learn as much as possible. Is it appreciation for the natural world? There is nothing I like more than going hiking and looking at plants and insects. But I don't feel, "spiritual".

How do you "develop spiritually"? I don't get it. Is spirituality belief in god? How has that developed? Do you think you understand your god better? Do you believe in him more?

Spirituality is one of those fuzzy words people like to say, but ultimately means nothing to me. Then they hold it over my head, "Oh look at me. I'm spiritual, I'm in tune with the greater purpose, I have a global awareness". But most of the time I just see them as shallow twits. They also tend to be idiots.

[ozone_man]

45. Only the narrow view of spirituality is based on the supernatural.

Perhaps a better way to define spirituality is by asking people what the attributes of spirituality are. I'm a materialist, but I consider transcendence in nature to be a form of spirituality as well as connecting with loved ones, reflecting on one's life, etc. I agree, it's a term that can mean many things and most don't have anything to do with "spirits". ;)

Spirituality and personal well-being

Spirituality, according to most adherants, is an essential part of an individual's holistic health and well-being.

Due to its broad scope and personal nature, however, spirituality can perhaps be better understood by highlighting key concepts that arise when people are asked to describe what spirituality means to them. Research by Martsolf and Mickley (1998) highlighted the following areas as worthy of consideration:

* Meaning – significance of life; making sense of situations; deriving purpose.

* Values – beliefs, standards and ethics that are cherished.

* Transcendence – experience, awareness, and appreciation of a "transcendent dimension" to life beyond self.

* Connecting – increased awareness of a connection with self, others, God/Spirit/Divine, and nature.

* Becoming – an unfolding of life that demands reflection and experience; includes a sense of who one is and how one knows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

[NMMNG]

50. You are quite right

Many people, when they think of spirituality, automatically think religion/supernatural/"god". But spirituality goes far beyond that. While I am an atheist and not at all religious, I am nonetheless very spiritual. The description you posted of spirituality, sans references to god/spirit/divine, applies very closely to me.

[ozone_man]

51. Natural spirituality.

If we think of spiritual as in the sense of human spirit, awareness of our inner selves, connections to the world and people around us, to nature, to music, I think it's something that we all have. Some people's spirituality is linked with praying, some with meditation, but I think the majority of people just integrate spirituality into their lifestyles by leading a full life.

In browsing, I found a good essay on Natural Spirituality, where the writer explains how unnatural spirituality such as that described in Christian mythology, tends to take one away from nature, devaluing the natural world. This is a big mistake in my opinion. Basing one's spirituality on nature or at least integral with nature is the way to achieve a holistic life. The mistake of Christianity is leaving the garden, for we are part of nature, not apart from nature.

Unnatural Spirituality

Strangely, spirituality can also turn against nature. Even though theoretically the natural world may be seen as good and divinely created, the thrust of the spiritual life is often in an upward direction, away from the ordinary and the natural. Indeed, the human body and the body of the world may be seen as obstacles to the spiritual life The world, the flesh and the devil occupy the same lower terrain. Stories of saints emphasize their detachment from the world, and the Gospel teaches "Set your mind on things that are above, not on things that are on Earth." (Col. 3:1) and "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." (John: 8:23) Although these and similar sayings from religious texts don't require a separation of nature from the spiritual life, inescapably they connote an other-worldliness that may result in an attitude that devalues the natural world.

Personally, we may feel a strong tension between our upward yearnings and the pull of the body and the world. We may believe that to live a healthy and successful life, we have to overcome our own natural inclinations toward sexual desire, unhealthy or incorrect foods, depressive and other unwholesome moods, claims of family life, and the wish to make money. Unconsciously perhaps, we may agree with the culture at large that successful living requires that we overcome nature, inwardly and outwardly.

Natural Spirituality

A cold, rational, observer's attitude toward nature fails to reveal the spiritual potential in nature. But a warm, imaginative, participant's perspective invites a more mystical and therefore a more spiritual engagement with the world. The former leads to millions of words and statistics analysing the natural world, while the latter leads to stories, poetry, prayers, rites and meditation on that same world.

To safeguard and nurture both the natural world that is our environment and our spiritual lives, we will have to challenge the dominance of the scientific mythology that with much superiority and authority shrinks our approach to nature in a culture obsessed with gathering information. Studying nature is not our only option. We can also mediate upon it and find there a solid basis for spiritual sensitivity.

We can be educated by nature, becoming persons of broad vision and subtle values. In nature we can find our place, our identity and our affections. Nature offers a way to discover the riches of our own souls rather than the powers of the ego. In this way, nature deepens our very sense itself.

What reason could be more compelling for honouring and protecting this natural world in all its particularity and ubiquitousness than to know that it is the prime source of our spirituality, the root of our personal meaning, and the starting point for any soul journey?

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/186/moore186.htm

In the sense of natural spirituality as described by Moore, I am a spiritual person. Otherwise, I'm just another atheist whackjob. ;)

[NMMNG]

53. I like that description

The problem, IMO, with many traditional religions, is that they cause people to focus on heaven, the afterlife, deities and other unearthly things. In doing so people may end up ignoring the great beauty of what they have right here in front of them, sometimes to the detriment of the planet (such as with the fundamentalists, who are quite prone to ignoring environmental concerns).

[bluesbassman]

55. Very astute observation Buffy.

You have really nailed one of the major dysfunctions of organized religion. I think these areas are exploited by religious leaders because they are the most difficult to understand and have the most fear surrounding them. Perfect tools to use in controlling others. Nice post.

[ozone_man]

59. We know the Earth is real.

That we evolved here, that we die here, and are recycled for other uses by the planet. It makes so much more sense to have one's spirituality in harmony with the Earth, instead of an imaginary construct separate from Earth, such as heaven. I don't know what other spiritual directions or mysticism he (Moore) pursues personally, but he explains very well how natural spirituality is a good foundation for any form of spiritual quest.

For an atheist like me, it's enough to experience nature with some frequency of renewal, along with occasional extended trips into the natural world. No explicit meditation other than the hundreds of natural reflections that come with these experiences. The best spiritual path for me is through experiences in life. The meaning of life is to live it. ;)

[Ron Green]

46. I would characterize interdependence not as "fear of death,"

but as an increased connectedness with other people and ultimately with the rest of the world. I think of Erickson's stages of development, the last of which is "Integrity vs Despair," and the one preceding it, "Generativity vs Stagnation." If we have lived life well, we should attain the former of these pairs at the end, the penultimate one implying that we reach out to younger generations in service and teaching, and in the final stage we are fully integrated, and not despairing, or fearing death.

Perhaps the old folks who "believed in god (and weren't senile)" were still in a stage of dependency, a church-based belief system. Going through ritualistic worship all your life seems a poor substitute for doing the hard work of learning who you are and how you fit in to the universe. This is the scary thing about such theocracies as we see in the Middle East, or what the Dominionists are trying to accomplish: they will keep masses of people from discovering the true self, which is, I believe, the God Self.

I humbly suggest that there is a step beyond atheism, and that is the one that I have sought and am still seeking.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

71. Cool. Defining spirituality

The nifty thing about it is it is what you want it to be. For me, it is the sense that I am not alone, that someone is listening, that my life is inspired. (as in breath, inspiration). It is the sense that there is something far greater than I but that i am a part of it.

Religion, as one poster said recently, provides the tools for accessing that feeling. Not needed, but sometimes handy.

[genieroze]

48. I am over 40 and I have changed back and forth.

I read the Bible Fraud. I'm not atheist but I can't be a Christian after reading that book and further investigation.

[Maat]

49. I'm also a New-Thoughter.

The New Thought faiths are Unity, Religious Science, and Divine Science. I'm a Religious Scientist ( www.rsintl.org ). R.S. is very similar to Unity.

I, like the Deists, believe that Spirit is non-judgmental, and is a System/Consciousness that is powerful and available to us to help us with our goals. I'm also a Panentheist that believes Spirit is within and without, and that we are each equally divine. We also honor all spiritual paths, including lack thereof.

I went to the Presbyterian Church with my grammie until I was 15, basically developed my own thoughts for the next 30 years, and then bumped into a faith/belief-system that mirrored those beliefs!

[AllieB]

52. I'm under 40, and I think I'm agnostic

I don't know if there's a God/Goddess/Supreme Being. I was raised Catholic but was never very religious. I just don't think about faith all that often.

[SPKrazy]

54. You've Heard Of Yo Yo Dieters?

well I'm probably one of those too

but I'm a yo yo with spirituality in some ways

I've gone like a pendulum from one extreme to the other and seem to be coming more towards a reasonable (for me) spirituality.

I've not ever been an atheist, but I've had a time of some agnosticism, and lots of questioning.

My childhood religious training has not been particularly helpful in my current spiritual development. I never really paid much attention back then anyhow.

I have been way out on the extreme dogmatic end of the spectrum at one time in my 20's and literally burned out on that and swung the other way.

I've found that the more I try to figure God out, the less I understand God (my understanding of God that is).

I've started with an assumption that I'm not the greatest thing in the universe, therefore there are powers greater than I am. I've asked whatever power is out there that might be benevolent to help me in struggles, and found that I was more able (or felt to be) to deal with those struggles.

I consider myself a Christian, although I'm not a traditional Christian. I am skeptical about the veracity of the accounts of Christ through the gospels. I realize that there is a great deal of "other" information and gospels that describe Jesus, and that the synoptic gospels have some contradictions in them. My feeling is that they are not literal descriptions of the life of Christ, but are instead written down remembrances and oral accounts that have taken on embellishment, and mixing with other traditions of the time. (Gnosticism for one)

But I do believe that the message of Christ, that God loves and cares for us, and that we should love and care for each other, is a valid message of what I believe about God, whether Jesus was what he is depicted as being in the gospels or not. The gospels were written through the post-Easter lens of the situation of the life of Jesus, and therefore there was also an agenda in keeping a religion alive, memories of a life that may not have been "superhuman" at the time, but after the fact seemed so. (An example would be that you witnessed an event of some kind. Then learned things about the participants of the event after the fact and then discovered that the event had changed in meaning. Of course the person who witnessed his may not have even known that it had changed in meaning from the first impression.)

I do think that Jesus was an expression of the divine, as I believe that we all are an expression of the divine. I think that Jesus was able to realize that expression in a way that no one at the time (and perhaps since then?) was able to in the culture he lived in. I do think that in other cultures, people have been able to realize he divine expression in ways that created different religions. I also think that the prophets of the bible are probably all people that were able to tap into the expression of the divine in a way that most people aren't able to. I think that there are prophets alive today, although at the moment I don't know who they might be.

I do think that modern society and our knowledge has made many of us skeptical of all things spiritual and so many turn away from that as it isn't logical. I know that I have found myself praying and wondering "why" I was doing it when it didn't feel real. At other times I've felt prayer was actually "connecting" me with my source, God.

So, that was more than I intended to say, but I am on a journey, and not necessarily aware of where that journey leads most of the time.

[bluesbassman]

56. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Southpawkicker.

Many things you said are issues I've experienced in my life. Growing up in the 60's and coming of age in the 70's provided a lot of diverse influences on my thinking, but I think the main impact was to cause me to "question authority".

Being raised Catholic caused me to feel (this is my personal experience, and not an indictment of Catholicism) that God was a stern task master who was seldom if ever satisfied with my efforts. So when I began to expand my independence, I also grew independent of God. As the years past though, and I learned to be more interdependent, I saw God in a different light. Not as a ruler who demanded servitude, but as a leader whose understanding of the infinite could guide me in my finite experience.

One of the statements you made that was especially close to my belief was; "I do think that Jesus was an expression of the divine, as I believe that we all are an expression of the divine. I think that Jesus was able to realize that expression in a way that no one at the time (and perhaps since then?) was able to in the culture he lived in". I believe that we are essentially two components; the physical, which consists of our bodies and minds and deals with the "reality" that we now inhabit. But we also have a "spirit" or "soul" which transcends the physical. This is the aspect of the human experience that Jesus perfected, providing us with a road map for the "expression of the divine" that lays within us all.

Thanks for giving me a springboard to express some of my thoughts.

[Ron Green]

58. Thanks to both of you for enriching this thread.

And Southpawkicker, you made me think of something: I have found that to the extent that I connect with the Source (or I could say God) in simple love and thanks for what I have in this life, things seem to go better for me. This is in contrast to when I was "asking" for things, and my life seemed much more difficult and deprived. I think this is an important component of faith, that one must trust in the Universe and be thankful in advance.

[Trajan]

57. I had a similar path ....

except for the ending ....

As a child, I absorbed (dutifully) a strong catholic indoctrination ....

As a teen, doubts grew into agnosticism ....

As a late teen, that doubt grew into weak atheism ...

Even now, after a half life's worth of experience, I have found that, for me, hope springs from within .....

Spirit exists, but in a conscious mind .... Without a functioning brain, I cannot imagine spirit, and hence no universal cause of spirit; only one that is based in corporeal existence alone ....

When I consider 'love', I cannot imagine such an entity existent outside of the sphere of sentience. Love does not exist (apparently) between planet and star .... between pond water and protozoa .... between shark fin and sea spray .... Love is a CONSCIOUS act ... a choice to uphold another in a clearer focus of attention ... to offer one's own energy for THEIR causes ... To submit bodily and 'spiritually' (if you will) to bring individual or collective energies to bear on life's goals and hopes and dreams ....

In other words: Love has no obvious source beyond animal action. There is no obviously 'identifiable' cause for the existence of 'love', other than a choice of a living being to dedicate themselves to the actions of love ....

So any notion that some 'pool' of love exists, that some vague and ambiguous 'source' of love exists somewhere, even as a formless entity, can only, in my mind, be speculation .... and such speculation is not enough for the establishment of a fact.

I also recognize that the time spent meandering in search of a speculated love-source is time NOT spent cultivating HUMAN love .... Time spent on ruminations of an afterlife, a hereafter, is time lost for those who still live in the here and now ... suffering .... Time is of the essense ....

So, in my later years, I have not returned to spirituality, as you postulate, but have settled into a firmer Atheism, coupled with an appreciation of life, your ONLY life, pragmatically lived, and the knowledge that secular humanism is probably the only rational goal for humanity, but will never go beyond boutique acceptance.

I am cynical for humanity (because of collective ignorance), knowing it will repeat the same mistakes over and over again, but I am hopeful for myself as a human being (because of individual ignorance) knowing my curiosity grows within, like a child, still .....

[ozone_man]

60. That was wonderful!

Partly because it is what I believe also, but you have expressed it so well. These parts in particular.

"Spirit exists, but in a conscious mind .... Without a functioning brain, I cannot imagine spirit, and hence no universal cause of spirit; only one that is based in corporeal existence alone ...."

"I also recognize that the time spent meandering in search of a speculated love-source is time NOT spent cultivating HUMAN love .... Time spent on ruminations of an afterlife, a hereafter, is time lost for those who still live in the here and now ... suffering .... Time is of the essense ...."

[Ron Green]

61. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I would suggest, though, that love does exist in (apparently) unconscious relationships of rock and river, tree and bird, etc., if it's accepted that "human" consciousness and love is not the only form of these. If we as humans are "in the image of God," that would suggest to me that we have the consciousness of a creator, and are indeed responsible for co-creating the world, unlike the natural world, which just does what it's supposed to do. To me, this is why many people get their spiritual energy from Nature (it's the place where God is operating unhindered), but we must do the additional hard work of loving other humans, many of whom are confused and separated from God in various ways, and acting badly. I mean, the problem of the fundies is by itself a huge one: a bunch of scared and ignorant people not only claiming to have God's ear, but also fooling many otherwise rational folks with their twisted definition of who God may be.

[W_HAMILTON]

62. Under 40

Never really been particularly religious. If asked, I probably would have said Baptist, just because that's what my parents were. Actually tried reading the Bible some around the time we invaded Iraq. Got some ways in, then that was around the time the Gay Marriage debate sparked up. I heard all these Christians saying that gay people are an abomination, so says the Bible, and that gay people are not made that way.

Well, being gay, I know it's not a choice. I've lived it. So if they believe that gays are not created by their God, and that this is not a choice -- well I'm living proof that they are wrong. I don't expect anyone to believe me, but I know how things are.

Needless to say, around that time I pretty much discarded all religions. I realized that none of these religions really know if there is a God, much less what he wants. God didn't speak to those people that wrote those books. All these "miracles" that were so common back then, and all the dialogue between God and everyone else that happened all the time -- don't happen at all today. They're myths, plain and simple. Myths written by men thousands of years ago who had very little knowledge about our world.

Is there a god? Who knows. I considered myself an atheist for awhile, then I found the term agnostic, and realized that better labeled what I was. I sometimes pray, because it makes you feel better sometimes. But I don't know if it does any good. I guess we'll find out someday.

Either way, out of all of this, I've come to the realization that religions are bs; if there is a God, none of these divisive religions capture what he is, or what he wants. They are man-made creations. I don't believe that God would put people on this Earth, knowing they'd be doomed because they didn't subscribe to one of the hundreds of religions out there.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. I voted that my faith has increased

and the reason for that is simple. Over my life I have accumulated more and more evidence that proves the existence of God. To me. It wouldn't mean anything to anybody else. But virtually every week I encounter something that makes me go "hmmmm."