PZ Myers: "My story of faith"

[BurtWorm]

From a "notorious" atheist.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/my_story_of_faith.php

Category: Godlessness
Posted on: July 13, 2006 10:53 AM, by PZ Myers

Andy says the Washington Post is asking for personal "spiritual stories". They want it under 400 words, and they're looking for "a time of crisis that tested your faith, the person who most influenced your beliefs, a life-changing event that shaped your spiritual identity, or a religious teaching or ritual that you find especially moving." Awww, how heart-warming.

I sent mine in. I doubt that they'll accept it, so I've put a copy below the fold.

My story of faith

When I was a young man, I was a regular member of the Lutheran church. I attended Sunday services, I went to Sunday school, I was a member of the choir, I was even an acolyte -- I wore the funny robes and marched up with the minister to light the candles at the start of services. I signed up for confirmation classes and went every week. I read the Bible, I read the Lutheran catechism, I memorized the Nicene creed.

I also lived near the town library. I was there every day. I started reading Scientific American. Seriously, I'd read the whole thing, cover to cover, struggling with many of the articles, but it was worth it. I learned that the world was a wonder, and people could actually spend their lives trying to understand it. Science was like a laser that burned the superstition and empty rituals of the church out of my brain.

I suddenly realized something: in all the theological texts, in all the dogma I was committing to memory, there wasn't even the tiniest fraction of the beauty and joy and truth I could find in one short article on insect biomechanics, or cytoplasmic transport, or recreational mathematics.

I walked away from the church, unconfirmed, with no regrets, and happy that I'd replaced the burden of dusty, dead authoritarianism with participation in the living world. Apostasy tastes sweet and satisfying, and I can thank a local library and the good scientists who published in Sci Am.

[Avalux]

1. I love it!

That experience is very similar to mine; raised strict Catholic; received a copy of Darwin's Theory of Evolution as a birthday present from my dad (of all people) when I was 14. Imagine what that did to my head! It was all over from there; although I can't say I'm an atheist. I believe there's something, but the structure of religion doesn't suit me. Science is absolutely wonderful.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I think it is a refreshing viewpoint, frankly

I think each person finds their path in life by discovering what lives for them-what shows beauty, joy, and truth. For some, it is a religion. For others, it is science. For others, it is spirituality. I think it is important to realize that people have different concepts of reality, and to celebrate these different concepts. I hope they print your essay.

[BurtWorm]

4. It's PZ Myers' essay, not mine.

:toast:

[Evoman]

6. Except that some ways of learning are superior.

I hate when people equate the scientific method with some other asinine "way of learning". The opposite of science is not religion or spirituality. The opposite of science is ignorance.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. You may be right

but I don't think religion or spirituality are "opposite" science. They are simply other ways of viewing the world. I personally know several scientists who are also very spiritual.

[SPKrazy]

11. Aye, Ayeshahaqqiqa!

I too know spiritually minded scientists who have thrown out the need for dogmatic approaches to religion or spirituality and instead are very contented, and brilliant people.

[Evoman]

18. I agree with you.

There are indeed different ways of viewing the world. It does not immediatly mean that all views are equal in truth. One person may look up at a lightning storm or a tornado, and view it as the wrath of god. Another person may look at the sun, and think it it a chariot ridden by a god.

Those people both have unique views. And both their views are based on ignorance.

On edit: What is spirituality, exactly? What do you mean by spiritual scientists? Scientists, unfortunately, are not immune to irrationality. I hold many irrational beliefs myself. Lol..if you ask, I may even share them with you ;).

[SPKrazy]

21. What If

you looked at a lightning storm and said instead of either seeing it as a storm, or some goofy idea about the "wrath of God", as a storm, with beauty and danger in the storm, all part of a world and a universe created by God with a purpose that is beyond understanding?

I realize that you see belief in God as irrational, which maybe is my problem with dichotomies as I see the word irrational and I think ignorant, stupid, crazy, etc. (since it isn't a logical thought process to be irrational)

I don't know what you mean when you call it irrational. Are you just being matter of fact. Because you also state that you hold irrational beliefs.

I just don't see the world as black and white.

I believe in evolution, scientific method, and think that science is wonderful.

I also believe in a God that is probably not something that is possible to be studied (at least by current methods) because it does vary from individual to individual to some degree.

[SPKrazy]

10. Gosh, That's So Egalitarian Of You

Perhaps you have something there

[Evoman]

12. If you have a issue with something I said,

I invite you to argue with me, or to try to correct something I've said, directly.

[SPKrazy]

14. Why?

I have no reason to try to correct something you've said

it wouldn't make any difference to you what I had to say about your comments

so I am just agreeing with you, besides, you might be right?

[Evoman]

16. You are wrong.

"it wouldn't make any difference to you what I had to say about your comments"

I respect you as a person, and thus your comments on what I post are appreciated. It is hard to gauge sometimes, but I took your "that egaliterian" comment as snide. If I was mistaken, I apologize :).

[SPKrazy]

19. Well

I hate when people equate the scientific method with some other asinine "way of learning". The opposite of science is not religion or spirituality. The opposite of science is ignorance.

I'm trying to find a way of reading this that doesn't seem to be "snide"

asinine way of learning, like, say, intuition?

the opposite of science is ignorance?

Why would science and spirituality be on opposite ends? As Ayeshahaqqa has stated, she knows many scientists who have spiritual beliefs, as do I.

I find no dichotomy with science and spiritual beliefs.

I find fundies who find that dichotomy to be ignorant.

I don't want to think of you as ignorant, but your view is (based on your post) really no different.

[Evoman]

23. You are right. It was snide, and I apologize.

There is no reason to have put things so harshly.

Intuition has its uses, but is far inferior as a way of learning about the universe that science. I will elaborate on this if you want, but I'm sure you would agree with this (If you do want me to elaborate, it will probably have to wait until tommorow...my girlfriend wants to spend time with me *grin*).

"Why would science and spirituality be on opposite ends? As Ayeshahaqqa has stated, she knows many scientists who have spiritual beliefs, as do I.

I find fundies who find that dichotomy to be ignorant.

I don't want to think of you as ignorant, but your view is (based on your post) really no different."

Did I not say that the opposite of science is not religion? Did I make that dichotomy? No, I did not. I hold to the fact, however, that science is a far superior way of knowing and learning than religion ABOUT THE UNIVERSE. In the end, what else does religion tell you about the world apart from "god did it". It has no explanatory power, whatsoever. In the 2000 years since the bible was supposedly written, what has the bible really taught us about the universe? That demons cause disease? That the stars are a canopy above the heavens? Lol..none of it true. You apply a little science, and within 200 years, we know what the sun is made of, that their are black holes, and not only that bacteria cause disease, but what the biochemical pathways of disease are.

How somebody can equate science and religion as methods of learning about the universe is astounding to me. In truth, religion isn't even needed to teach moral lessons, as far as I've seen. And (this is not meant to sound snide) I fail to see any redeeming quality of religion whatsoever, apart from easing death anxieties.

[SPKrazy]

25. Okay, I Agree That Religion Isn't Useful To Study The Universe

nor is spirituality

it is however a framework that is not mutually exclusive in my world.

I love when at my church the kids put on a skit where they rolled out a history of time that went back to the beginning with the big bang, the universe expanding, the earth, origins of life (not Adam and Eve, but single celled organisms) and so on through evolution.
It was a neat thing to see, since I don't know anyone at my church that thinks the world is 6000 years old.

The idea being, that God creates through what we come to understand through science and observation.

Now the stories that nomadic tribes told each other about creation were probably based on what they knew (not much) about the universe.

I don't believe that God wrote the bible. I think men and women did. I think that it was heavily edited by the Catholic Church with it's own agenda.

I think that people that believe that the bible is an accurate story of creation aren't playing with a full deck.

I've known some people like that. I met a nurse who got an online degree from Liberty University (Feelill falwell's university) and had to take courses that argued that carbon dating was not accurate, that the world was probably a lot more like 6 k years old, etc.

I couldn't even argue with it, there is no logic to it. How does one even argue with that kind of logic.

What I find from spirituality (and to a lesser extent from religion) is comfort and strength, and peace of mind. I don't know if I have ease about death, I'm not seeking it by any means anyhow.

Peace



:P

go be with your girlfriend

[SPKrazy]

15. Or You Might Read

Ayeshahaqqiqa's posts

she's more elegant and polite than I am in what she says

me, I just think you equate science with the be all end all of everything

some of us DU'ers happen to think spirituality is a real phenemenon, but then again, you'd want proof of that and there isn't any

so, case closed, right?

[IndependentVoice]

3. I was christian until 10th grade when I went into Biology

I loved that class from the start, and once I read the origin of speices I went Atheiest and never looked back, still no regrets

[SPKrazy]

9. I'm Not So Sure

I've read your posts

are you sure you've never looked back? You spend a lot of time arguing with your "friends" about the bible, and posting things on here that seem to imply that you had a fundamentalist upbringing that you haven't quite figured out how to separate from.

My advice: throw away the dogma, be who you are, and don't worry about what those pesky Christians you are always arguing with think.

You should be certain in your ideas enough that you don't have to try to prove them wrong, right?

[Evoman]

13. Something similar happened to me

when I was about 10-12. I read nothing but astronomy and physics books (I went through a phase). Religion made no sense to me..it still doesn't. Lol...a non-corporeal god impregnated a virgin, and sent a man to forgive the sins, orginating from a women, made from a rib, who ate a bad apple...WHA!!!!
You've got to be either incredibly open minded, or indoctrinated from childhood, to believe that stuff.

[SPKrazy]

17. Or You Have To Be

raised in a fundamentalist church

because I've never been taught to believe that those things happened literally

they are metaphor

and myth

and lessons from oral tradition

[Evoman]

20. Then why believe anything.

If a that stuff is myth, if the bible is factually wrong with respect to the origin of humankind, why believe any of it? If you can say that one thing is a metaphor, then how can you not think that maybe Jesus and the entirety of the bible is myth. I've said it once, and I will say it again: if the bible is wrong about the easy stuff (i.e what diseases are, and what people are made of), then why would you use it to answer the hard stuff (i.e where humans come from, and who "created" the universe).

If you realize that most of the bible is metaphor, why do you worship Jesus? Why not treat the stories of Jesus in the exact same way as the story of Odysseus? Why not take the few moral lessons you can actually find in it, that put the rest of the bible in your stack of intersting, but ultimately untrue, stories?

[SPKrazy]

22. See, That's The Kind Of Thing I Hear From Fundies

Because I believe that a man named Jesus existed. I believe that he was a very spiritual person. I believe that there have been many people who have been able to be in contact with the spiritual realm. I believe that Jesus may not have known that he was the wisdom of God incarnate, or that he was starting a church. His followers saw a different Jesus after he died than the one that existed when before he died.

Now why do I not put it in my stack of interesting but ultimately untrue stories?

Because it is truth, even if the stories are not literally true. (or meant to be)

They are part of an ancient religion that has evolved over time.

I don't throw babies out with the bathwater, and I don't understand the thinking that goes with it is either "all true" or none of it can be believed. I've heard fundie preachers say the same thing.
But I've not felt that way, nor have I believed that way. I have felt a spiritual presence. I can't prove it. But I feel it, and it comforts me, gives me strength, and helps me.

For me, the bible has not necessarily been my primary source of information about my spiritual beliefs. But I don't just consider it another piece of literature, although I do consider it a piece of literature.

[Evoman]

24. I never said throw the baby out with the biblical water, lol

Please do not strawmen me with the all or nothing talk, that is not what I am saying.I said take the moral lessons from it if you need. I am simply asking about what makes one part true (the jesus part) and what makes the rest of it myth? How can you tell?

How do you know that their is any truth in the bible? How do you know that jesus existed? I know that if I read a science textbook that continually fucked up on the easy, introductory concepts, then I would most likely not believe the complicated theories. Its not a matter of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because I'm sure that textbook has some truths in it. But that doesn't mean I don't throw it in the garbage, and find a better book to read...one that contains a lot more truth in it.

What exactly do you think is true about the bible?

[SPKrazy]

26. I Tell

by studying bible scholars (rather liberal ones) who look at what is historical, vs. what is more likely myth, or folklore.

What do I think is true about the bible.

I think the message that it isn't what we do so much that helps us connect to the spiritual realm, it's simply belief and awareness of the defects of my character that keep me from connecting to the spiritual realm.

I think Jesus did exist. I don't think that at the time many people realized (maybe even Jesus himself) what was happening, or who he was.

As for who Jesus was, well I believe that he was a man, who was a "spirit person", a wisdom person, and that he was able to have the kind of relationship with God that he was intimately aware of who/what God is, and it wasn't what the conventional wisdom said God was.

[Evoman]

27. One more post before I go

My question to you is, What do think about the buddha? And just so you don't feel like I'm luring you into a trap, I'll tell you why I ask.

If you do not believe in the buddha, I would simply ask, why not? There is no more or no less evidence of his existence.

If you do believe in the buddha, and that he was also a wiseman along the vein of Jesus (i.e they were not god, but wise men), why do you call yourself a christian? I thought part of being christian was the worship of Christ as god, or the son of god. If you do not worship christ, and can agree that buddha was just as wise and moral (a long time before Jesus, to boot), why then be a christian at all? Peer pressure? Do you just like church?

So you don't believe in the obviously illogical components of the bible....my second question is simply this.....do you believe in the resurrection? Because if there is anything in that book that doesn't make logical sense, its that little tid bit.

[SPKrazy]

28. "Not Luring You Into A Trap"

sounds suspicious to me.

Do I believe in the Buddha?
Yes I do.

He was a wise man. He transcended human reality. I'm not sure that Buddha was "long before Christ", but I could be wrong. I don't think Buddhists worship Buddha. (Gautama Buddha was a spiritual teacher in the ancient Indian subcontinent and the historical founder of Buddhism. He is universally recognised by Buddhists as the Supreme Buddha of our age. The time of his birth and death are unclear, but most modern scholars have him living between approximately 563 BCE and 483 BCE. From Wikipedia)

I worship God in all of his/her manifestations. I call myself a Christian because I live in a Christian culture and I profess Christ's wisdom to be something that feels right to me.

Do I like church? I do sometimes. I like the ritual of communion, and the ceremony there, it has an effect on me that feels peaceful.

I also like the family oriented atmosphere there


I don't know if the ressurection is true or not. I believe it is true. But I could be wrong. If I'm wrong it doesn't matter that much to me because I believe in God and that God has manifested him/herself in many ways throughout human history.

[varkam]

5. There is indeed...

much beauty and wonderment to be found in the natural world. The complexity of it, and of the science that examines it, is truly mind-boggling stuff for me - which is why I think I enjoy it so much.

[SPKrazy]

8. Good For You!

I appreciate the beauty of this world too

I don't always know what to make of it

I guess I'm grateful that my spiritual beliefs aren't tied up in dogma or literalism so there is so much mystery in the material world, and in the spiritual realm(s)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. If church

and dogma are dusty, dead authoritariansim then he did well to leave it behind. Sadly, he misunderstood the whole package.

Insect biomechanics and cytoplasmic transport and even more exciting when viewed as part of a universe created by an entity that is beyond our finite comprehension. He saw them as mutally excusive. To me, they are intricately interlaced.

Kind of like Mac and Cheese.