It's selfish to wear the veil, says Straw aide (UK)

[struggle4progress]

... a Government split emerged as Mr Griffiths was attacked by Race Relations Minister Phil Woolas who said: "In all honesty, I don't think these women are being selfish." Mr Woolas said outspoken comments by figures such as Mr Straw had provoked a dangerous backlash, with worried Muslims in other countries contacting British relatives and asking if they were safe from 'persecution'.

The row came as a 49-year-old mother's veil was torn from her at a bus stop in Liverpool. Her daughter Ilham Ali said: "The man was shouting, "Pull that scarf off your head, you Muslim''. I'm 100 per cent certain the racist attack on my mum was a direct result of the comments Jack Straw made."

Seventy people from the Stop The War Coalition, including 20 women in veils, staged a protest against Mr Straw in his Blackburn constituency. But he stood by his claim that veils were a 'visible statement of separation and difference' and harmed community relations.

Mr Griffiths went a step further, saying: "It's all very well for Muslim women to say that they feel comfortable wearing the veil but it is important that other people feel comfortable, too ...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23370004-details/It's%20selfish%20to%20wear%20the%20veil,%20says%20Straw%20aide/article.do

[Thickasabrick]

1. Screw the other people. I think Straw was a dickhead to say what

he said. It should be a personal choice and if it makes other people uncomfortable - fuck them.

[MiaCulpa]

2. I'd like to see him tell Jews they couldn't wear their yarlmouks(sp?)

And that they were selfish to do so, or the Pope that he shouldn't dress up so ostentatiously and that he was selfish to do so, etc.,

[pnwmom]

3. There's a difference between a head cover, like some veils, and

veils that are essentially masks.

It is difficult to talk to someone wearing a mask. That person can read your facial expression, but you can't read his or hers.

There are potential legal problems, too, in identifying someone. Suppose you get in a car accident with a woman wearing a full veil. (It could happen, where I live.) How do you later identify her as the driver if you need to?

[fairplay]

4. I agree with Shaw

I thought myself tolerant. but I have a negative feeling, not logical thought, but negative feeling about the "veil". I just don't like it. What does it mean "to wear the veil" or "not to wear the veil"?
Does one make promises or take vows of reciting so many prayers or depriving oneself of some luxury like chocolate or coffee? Someone, here, educate me so that I understand what the veil means, and I can relax with it. Thanks!

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. I'm not quite sure what you mean

"To wear the veil" just means "to wear the veil". The eyes are normally left uncovered (though there is the burqa, sometimes worn in Afghanistan, in which a semi-transparent cloth covers them too, but those are almost unheard of in the UK). The rest of the face is covered up, with a non-transparent cloth - this isn't like a widow's veil, or the veil of a bride. The women take the veil off in their own homes, and, normally, in friends' homes too. No man ever wears a veil.

If they apply for a driving licence, they have to supply a photo without the veil, and have to take the veil off in a private room in front of a woman when they take the test, to confirm they're not getting someone else to take it for them. Similarly, their passport photo must be without a veil, and I presume immigration officers in any country can demand they take the veil off. Whether any countries give them the choice of a female immigration officer, I don't know.

[fairplay]

6. the veil

The question is, "What is the point, what does it mean, why so adamant on the right to wear it .... THE VEIL?" If there is no religious or cultural meaning, then what is the point than just to "draw attention".

[Random_Australian]

14. Eh? Where did he say there was no religious or cultural meaning?

[Boojatta]

7. "No man ever wears a veil."

Are you saying that if a man wears something that would be called a veil if a woman wore it then you will refuse to call it a veil?

Are you saying that you don't believe that any man anywhere in the world regularly wears a veil? That seems unlikely considering that there are men who dress in women's clothing and try to give the impression that they are women.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Take the remark in context

The Muslim cultures that say a 'modest' woman should wear a veil do not say that about the men in them, and the men don't wear a veil as their normal dress; if they did try to dress like women in their cultures, and were found out, they would be shunned at minimum, and probably punished, possibly physically.

[Igel]

8. I don't feel comfortable talking 1-on1 with women if I can't see

their faces. Even trick-or-treaters. They have the right to wear a veil, if they want. Or a Richard Nixon mask. No matter. I have a right not to talk to them, if I want. If they have something I want, I can weight the relative importance of my cultural expectation and my personal want. Same for them, if I have something they want. If they value their veil over their want, that's their judgment; they're entitled to it, but it's not imposed on them from outside, it's imposed on them by themselves.

It's the usual "cultural awareness and cultural accommodation" rigamarole. I have one set of cultural expectations for my behavior and those around me. People from another culture have a different set of expectations.

When I'm in their culture, as I am from time to time (in my case, Russian, Czech, Spanish, or Polish), I try to abide by their restrictions and standards of conduct to the greatest extent possible, until it violates the most liberal reading of what I can tolerate. My expectation is reciprocality. Oddly, I find that most people have the same kind of expectation. They overlook breaches of cultural etiquette, as long as I wasn't aware of it when I broke the rules, and take willful, demanding violation of them as intentional disrespect--and compliance as neutral or as a sign of respect.

But when I refuse to abide by a cultural requirement when I'm abroad, and run afoul of cultural expectations, I don't expect them to be pleased with my demands that they honor my culture in their country, and conform to my expectations: how selfish is that, expecting strangers to conform to my expectations because, well, they're *my* expectations. We find workarounds, or I explain my problem: if they aren't willing to yield voluntarily, I abandon the field of Kulturkampf. The same works in personal relations.

I don't eat pork or shrimp, but do eat chicken and beef. In Poland, our host served us a traditional Polish dinner. With pork. I abided by her menu; I didn't eat pork, but neither did I expect her to alter her menu. In fact, I thanked her heartily, and put her at ease, stretching the truth in saying that everything was great. When I invited some of the grad students working over for dinner, I didn't know one was vegan. She found stuff to eat, but not much. She was respectful: She got an e-mail asking about dietary restrictions, and did not reply, so she didn't utter a word of complaint. I found out she was a vegan a week later.

The Muslim women who interpret their fiqh to require that they cover their faces should simply find another doctor; if it's an inconvenience, it's a self-imposed one that they, and only they, are responsible for.

[neebob]

12. Who says they want to talk to you?

And why aren't you comfortable talking to women you can't see? You're talking to people you can't see on this board. According to your profile, you've done it 7,309 times. What's the difference if it's a woman in front of you, wearing a veil?

I'm a woman, by the way, and not wearing a veil, if that helps you feel more comfortable.

[Boojatta]

10. Shouldn't there be a veiled smilie for threads like this? e.o.m.

[greyl]

11. "Suspect in terror hunt used veil to evade arrest"

GD thread

The link is just an fyi. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue - it's a toughy.

[neebob]

13. This stuff about people feeling comfortable is so much bullshit

Call my cynical, but I see a politician capitalizing on prejudice. He said something he knew he could get away with, and the other politicians defending him chime in, knowing they can get away with it as well, and all the non-thinking people go, "Yeah, that's reasonable - women shouldn't wear veils because it makes us uncomfortable," and the women wearing veils become the problem. How insidious and wrong that is.