LAT: Bearing witness to a sea change in Unitarian practice

[DeepModem Mom]

Bearing witness to a sea change in Unitarian practice
The usually low-profile church now spreads its message with mass mailers, radio spots, newspaper ads.
By David Haldane, Times Staff Writer
October 28, 2006

....A denomination with no formal creed, a low profile and a strong tradition against proselytizing, Unitarian Universalists — Unitarians for short — are trying something new: a splashy dose of evangelism. Using radio spots, newspaper ads and mass mailers, they hope to spread the word (lower case) about their faith's openness, diversity and undogmatic approach.

"(We're) coming out of the closet by being more present in the religious landscape," said the Rev. William Sinkford, head of the American branch of the Unitarian Universalists and, not coincidentally, a former marketing director.

The advertising outreach started three years ago in Kansas City, where attendance at the local church has since increased by 30%, according to Unitarian officials.

Since then, the denomination has spent $750,000 on media campaigns in five major cities....The Unitarian marketing campaign for the "uncommon denomination" features, among other things, the mailer depicting a same-sex couple and an interracial family under the slogan, "Imagine a religion where people with different beliefs worship as one faith."...

***

The roots of Unitarian Universalism can be traced back to two Christian denominations. Unitarianism, which took root in Eastern Europe in the 1500s, rejected the Trinity in favor of God as one entity. Universalism, started formally in 18th century America, believed in the eternal salvation of all souls. Early followers of the two branches of Christianity included John Adams, Charles Darwin, Susan B. Anthony and Charles Dickens....

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-unitarians28oct28,0,2211127.story?track=mostemailedlink

[mike_c]

1. yeah, but can they work atheists into their world view...?

I'm always amazed by sects that feature the notion of tolerance, but only within a particular religious perspective. It's like trying to be a broad-minded vegetarian in an omnivorous world. Some folks simply don't relate.

[DeSwiss]

2. mike_c....

.....I am neither fish nor fowl when it comes to the issue of religion, but I have considered UU previously as the most likely group I'd ever consider myself associated with. As to the issue of atheism within the UU, its my beleif that atheists would be welcomed there. Here's a link to their site regarding the UU purposes:

http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/

If you search the site for atheism, you'll find that the topic is discussed quite a bit within the organization....

On edit:

Here are a couple more links you might like to look at:

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/uua?domains=www.uua.org&sitesearch=www.uua.org&q=atheism

[Zhade]

97. WOW - I'm glad I never got around to attending a service.

At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions.

Even these wonderful people don't get that atheism is NOT a religion and is NOT a belief.

Even THEY don't understand people like me, who simply lack belief in gods.

I'd expected better.

[w4rma]

3. How about we reverse that? Can some athiests work them into their world view?

At first glance, on the surface, I wouldn't think that this church would be targeting athiests to come to their services. Although I suppose it is a possibility that an athiest would want to visit (worship at?) their services and become a member of the Unitarian church.

[DeSwiss]

4. w4rma...

....I've never even attended one of their services before. But I had considered it after meeting someone from that belief who impressed me with their total absence of dogmatism when a discussion about religion came up. So I researched their site and one of the local churches in my hometown. They even include sermons on the local website and I'd have to say that after reading several of them, I was even more taken aback by the clearness of thought, the honesty and the total lack of BS. They incorporate humanism into everything that they stand for. I still find them very interesting and I haven't excluded the possibility of joining. Not for any religious need on my part (I'm beyond that), but to associate with like-minded caring people. That's what impressed me the most....

[w4rma]

11. Cool. I should research the Unitarians more. (nt)

[beam me up scottie]

5. Atheists don't have a "world view".

It's what they don't have that defines them and is actually the only thing they all have in common; no belief.

[mike_c]

10. of course we have a "world view...."

What makes you think that we don't? I won't speak for other folks, but I believe in a rational universe that does not need supernatural causes to explain it. My world view is of a mechanistic universe where all events are understandable given the proper conditions for exploration-- which is NOT to say that humans will ever understand much at all, but our shortcomings do not mean that the universe is not understandable, or that supernatural causes need to be invoked to explain events.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Because we don't.

Atheism is the absence of belief. There is no scripture, no dogma, no faith.

You have to add a world view to get one.

[heidler1]

17. I agree. My world view is consistent with Atheist view.

Like humans are really animals and their OK. Just like dogs humans are not perfect. Dogs have rules too. Dogs break their rules too.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Really? I'm an atheist, so tell me, what's my world view?

[Finder]

26. A rational world view...

based on reason and social justice.

From what I have read.IMO

[beam me up scottie]

27. Spell it out. Tell me what I believe in. What world view do ALL atheists share?

I didn't get the memo.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :


Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in a deity or deities. The opposite of theism, this broad definition encompasses both people who assert that there are no gods and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions of atheism typically include only those who assert the nonexistence of gods, excluding non-believing agnostics and other non-theists.

Although some atheists tend toward skepticism, and toward secular philosophies such as humanism, naturalism and materialism, there is no single system of philosophy which all atheists share, nor does atheism have institutionalized rituals or behaviors.Weak and strong atheism

If you want to find a religion, go for it, but please don't drag the rest of us along with you.

[Finder]

30. Religion is only a small part of world view for most and for some,...

they hold a biblical worldview. As atheists our world view does not include religion--period.

The majority of atheists hold a rational world view. That is not to say there are not diverse philosophies that lend themselves to worldview.

Consider the memo sent! lol

[beam me up scottie]

33. Great, now an atheist is telling me what I do and don't believe.

I had no idea DU had so many mindreaders.


Let's try this again:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in a deity or deities. The opposite of theism, this broad definition encompasses both people who assert that there are no gods and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions of atheism typically include only those who assert the nonexistence of gods, excluding non-believing agnostics and other non-theists.

Although some atheists tend toward skepticism, and toward secular philosophies such as humanism, naturalism and materialism, there is no single system of philosophy which all atheists share, nor does atheism have institutionalized rituals or behaviors.

[Finder]

92. Not attempting to do that at all. Sorry if it seemed that way...

I think we are interpreting the term worldview differently.

People either hold a rational or irrational worldview. Of course each of those contain various shades depending on the philosophies, religion, etc. of an individual.

Many deists and liberal theists hold a rational worldview so I agree with you that belief or non-belief does not necessarily equal worldview.

A biblical worldview would be an example of an irrational worldview that is based on religion.

In the context of the question regarding the worldview of UUers, most atheists would feel comfortable. IMO

[Goblinmonger]

41. I think what BMUS is trying to say

is that being identified as an atheist has nothing to do with anything other than a lack of belief in any gods. You could be anything else other than the god bit and still be an athiest. You could be completely irrational, conservative, anti-environment, anything. No world view is described by "atheist" because it just describes a lack of something.

Now, I would argue that, statistically, atheists are generally a pretty rationally based group that generally is pretty scientifically aware. But those facts are not identified, nor required, by the label atheist.

There are even atheists that don't like the label "atheist" because it defines us based on the theist world view.

[cosmik debris]

62. I wish a lot more people would understand atheism this way.

But then that would only bring peace and harmony, and we don't need that, do we?

[Goblinmonger]

66. No, we wouldn't want that.

It's often easier to think of us as the godless horde.

[Finder]

93. I do agree with her...

but I don't think anyone was trying to define an "atheist worldview" in particular. The discussion had more to do with the UU worldview and whether it was compatible.

[heidler1]

34. I consider myself an Atheist and this is only part of my World view.

IMO being an Atheist is not all consuming. Many of my view points have very little to do with being of the opinion that there are no Gods. The vast majority of my views would hold in either case.

[beam me up scottie]

35. So you speak for all atheists?

You don't have the right.

[heidler1]

37. Nobody has.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Yes, they have.

of course we have a "world view...."

My world view is consistent with Atheist view.

People in this forum need to stop telling atheists what they believe and/or don't.

It's disrespectful and illiberal.

[Odin2005]

29. Ditto! That is pretty much my woldview as well.

[Finder]

31. Agree. n/t

[salvorhardin]

39. Atheism does not describe a homogeneous group

If someone tells you that they are an atheist, all they have told you is that they don't believe in any gods. You can't tell anything else about them from that statement alone.

You describe a materialistic (or naturalistic if you like that word better) worldview but not all atheists subscribe to that worldview. I do, but others don't. Some atheists adopt an animistic or spiritualistic worldview that nonetheless does not include any gods. And still other atheists make no claims about the workings of the universe whatsoever. They just don't have any belief in gods. Another division among atheists are those who make a positive statement about the nonexistence of gods (strong atheists) and those who don't feel they can honestly make that claim (weak atheists -- the majority).

In short, to say someone has a certain worldview is to make a prediction about what they believe or how they will behave in a specific situation. Atheism alone just has no predictive power.

[mike_c]

47. and theism does...?

Of course not. Atheism and theism are simply opposite viewpoints, both with many permutations. Although I would argue that atheists tend not to devote as much energy to killing one another over their differing interpretations of how the universe might operate without supernatural intervention....

[beam me up scottie]

49. We might not kill each other over our different interpretations,

but many of us get a little testy when we're told what we believe or don't by others.

Atheism isn't a world view, it's a lack of belief.

[mike_c]

50. I think this whole subthread probably turns on semantic differences....

world·view (wûrldvy)
n. In both senses also called Weltanschauung.
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.


Why doesn't my lack of belief in supernatural causes, gods, whatever you want to call them constitute an "overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world?" Why isn't my confidence that the universe is naturalistic, that it operates without the initiation or intervention of gods "a collection of beliefs about life and the universe...?"

I'm not speaking for you, but I must admit I don't understand why you're so defensive about this.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Why am I defensive when others define my atheism?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=18153

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=30817

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=33271

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=39299

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=58243

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=57535

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=78983

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=84197

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=85156

[mike_c]

56. no-- why are you so adament that atheism is not a legitimate worldview...?

I'm sorry if you've had heated interactions about your beliefs in the past-- I'm certainly not criticizing them. I assume we probably think pretty similarly. It just seems odd that you so adamently deny that atheism-- a belief in a wholly natural universe, a denial of the need for supernatural causes, however you want to express it-- somehow doesn't qualify as a worldview. Do you disagree with the definition I copied above?

[beam me up scottie]

60. ARGH! I DON'T HAVE ATHEIST BELIEFS!

:banghead:

I have a lack of belief.

I provided you with the definition of atheism, what part don't you understand?

It's NOT a world view, it never was.

It's a lack of belief.

And those "heated interactions" were also about respect, not just definitions.

I try not to tell someone else what they believe or don't.

[liberalhistorian]

102. You, personally, may not do that, but

a lot of atheists and agnostics (no, Mike, I am most certainly not including you) display open contempt for those of us who ARE religious, to some extent (liberal Christian, in my case); that contempt often includes patronizing condescension, which is beyond annoying. We are not dumb redneck idiots just because we may believe in a higher power and that the universe did not simply come into being by itself and is not run by itself.

I fully recognize that atheists and agnostics are much more often the recipients of hate and distrust from people in general than vice versa, but it's still very annoying and irritating and, quite frankly, elitist in a way, to be condescended to and disdained because we happen to believe in a higher power.

[beam me up scottie]

103. What does your post have to do with redefining what I believe or don't?

a lot of atheists and agnostics (no, Mike, I am most certainly not including you) display open contempt for those of us who ARE religious, to some extent (liberal Christian, in my case); that contempt often includes patronizing condescension, which is beyond annoying. We are not dumb redneck idiots just because we may believe in a higher power and that the universe did not simply come into being by itself and is not run by itself.

How many is a lot, who said you were, and what does any of that have to do with my post?

I fully recognize that atheists and agnostics are much more often the recipients of hate and distrust from people in general than vice versa, but it's still very annoying and irritating and, quite frankly, elitist in a way, to be condescended to and disdained because we happen to believe in a higher power.

We don't believe in the supernatural and we think such belief is irrational and illogical; saying so is not being offensive and "elitist", it's being honest.

If you're talking about disrespect, fyi, DU atheists frequently call out other posters who insult believers.

And yet when we ask for nothing more than the right to define our own atheism, we're told we're too stupid to understand what the word means and are given dictionary definitions as "proof" of our ignorance.


Tolerance seems to be a one way street on DU.

[liberalhistorian]

105. I did not mean to define atheism for you,

but I do know that I've known atheists who've disagreed among themselves as to a "true" definition and who've told me that there's disagreement among atheists in general as to whether or not atheism itself is a "belief system." Not being an atheist or agnostic myself, I'm pretty much staying out of that one because it's really not my place to define anyone else's beliefs or lack of beliefs for them.

And if you think I'm "irrational and illogical" just because I don't believe what YOU believe, then, I'm sorry, but that really is elitist. I don't look down on you because you're an atheist, please extend the same courtesy to me.

[beam me up scottie]

106. I did not say you were irrational and illogical. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I said we think belief in the supernatural is irrational and illogical.

What else is an atheist if not someone who thinks belief in invisible and/or nonexistent beings is irrational and illogical?

And why is it offensive to say that? We're not claiming that we're more rational and logical than believers, we're just explaining why many of us don't share their beliefs.

Why are we expected to show deference to a deity we don't think exists?

I respect you and your right to believe, but I don't respect religious beliefs that I don't share.

Do you think atheists are right to disbelieve in the supernatural?

And should we be offended if you tell us you think we're wrong?



This is what we mean when we say our very existence is offensive to believers.

[liberalhistorian]

107. It really doesn't matter to me who believes what,

I'm not a nutball, theocratic "religious right" fundie. People have the right to believe, or not believe as the case may be, whatever they want, and to be left in peace about it. What I have a problem with is people disdaining other people BECAUSE they may believe differently. Frankly, to me, it takes more faith to NOT believe in God than to believe.

It does, btw, drive me crazy when people say that atheists and agnostics cannot have any "moral grounding" or principles just because they don't have a "religious" moral framework, which is complete nonsense. Yes, there have been atheist leaders who've done horrible things, but there also are and have been more than enough religious leaders, of whatever religion and not just Christian, who've done the same. You certainly don't have to be "religious" to be moral and principled. And just because you're religious doesn't mean you're "moral" or "principled."

[beam me up scottie]

108. See, that's why I love this forum.

We have so much more in common as liberals than not.

Where I grew up, people didn't discuss their religious beliefs, hell, I didn't even call myself an atheist because I didn't want the baggage associated with that label.

But once * was installed I couldn't stay on the sidelines anymore. None of us can afford to. The dominionists have perfected the use of religion as a weapon, we need to discuss it if we're going to fight back.

Stereotypes and definitions cause much of the infighting here and I've had to apologize for offending more times than I care to remember, but like most of the regulars in this forum, I really try never to do so deliberately.

[Goblinmonger]

54. Since I was directed here

I'll jump in.

Because term "atheist" does not provide a description of your overall perspective other than a lack of belief in any gods. Your naturalistic view does not need to stem from your atheism. You could be an atheist and think the world was shit out of your father's ass. The "operates without the intitiation or intervention of gods" falls into the only thing your atheism does define.

Finally, I would argue that what you state is not a "collection of beliefs" because atheism is NOT a belief. It is a lack of a belief which is VASTLY different, though many theists will tell you otherwise.

[mike_c]

58. OK, again, I think semantics are getting in the way....

a‧the‧ism  /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

I'll let the dictionary set the terms. The first definition invokes a "doctrine." Atheism is not just the lack of something-- it is a belief in a universe that does not need supernatural explanations. Sure, that leaves lots of latitude, including my father's buttocks, but theism is likewise filled with competing doctrines. Again, I don't see how you can maintain that belief in one doctrine-- theism in one form or another-- constitutes a worldview while atheism does not. I'm using the term worldview in the context stated in #50.

[Goblinmonger]

63. I would first argue

that dictionaries are mostly crap. The more popular dictionaries only tell us how the average person uses a word. That same dictionary probably (or one similar to it does) include "immoral" as a definition of atheism which is complete bullshit.

Of those two definitions, I have no problem with definition 2. Definition 1 clearly comes from a theist bias. Atheism is not a "belief." This has been discussed in here a lot, but the best analogies that get thrown around are that atheism is a belief like not collecting stamps is a hobby, barefoot is a shoe type, bald is a hair color, naked is clothing. Atheism has nothing to do with belief it is the lack of belief.

I think it is a lot about semantics, but many of us here are a little trigger happy because so many theists want to tell us that we do believe things about god and specifically what we believe. I am quite sure if you, BMUS, and I were in a bar right now, we would be having drinks, enjoying ourselves, and having a good time.

Hope you are enjoying the Arena.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Oh brother, the Sacred Dictionary Definition.

Let's use something a little more 21st century:

Definition of Atheism and Atheists Today

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different.

The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm

[mike_c]

69. there doesn't appear to be much likelihood of finding common ground...

...so I'll thank you for the interesting discussion. :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

72. On the contrary, we find it in here all the time.

As long as we respect each person's right to define their beliefs or lack of them.

[bloom]

59. Not only that

I think the whole subthread sounds like a misunderstanding of the original post.

"Can some atheists work them into their world view?"


From how I read it - that would be individual atheists who have individual world views. If someone is saying that atheists are incapable of individually having world views - that would be quite ridiculous.

[Goblinmonger]

68. Nobody would say that

but the "atheism" is not what drives the individual world views. You would agree with that, yes.

I mean you are the poster child for this. You are an atheist and you are at odds with other atheists on here all the time. Your world view is markedly different than that of other atheists. The fact that you and I are both atheists does nothing for the casual observer until they get into the other things that we think.

[beam me up scottie]

71. "I mean you are the poster child for this"

No better example exists.

:thumbsup:

[bloom]

74. I suppose it's up to w4rma

as far as what s/he was saying - but I didn't see w4rma as saying that atheists shared a worldview - as if atheists all think the same thing.

It's not like there haven't been misunderstandings before. And that's what I think it was.



And you're right - atheists think a variety of things. It's nice to see a thread about religious atheists. Seems I remember some people saying that their head explodes at the very idea - or that their mind loses 10 IQ points just thinking about it - and other such nonsense.

[Goblinmonger]

77. I'm sorry to say

that I still disagree with that. I thought that "spiritual" atheist is a better description. Though you can read upthread my thoughts on UU being a religion--and I'm a member. Again, probably a semantic quibble.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Hear that, Gobby?

You're a religious atheist!

:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

80. Hey!

I'm tryin to be nice. I'm avoiding the dark side tonight.

[beam me up scottie]

82. Sorry, I live on the dark side.

[beam me up scottie]

78. No, it was up to the people who said we have a world view.

of course we have a "world view

Of course someone who calls themselves a religious atheist probably wouldn't understand why definitions are important to other people.

[cosmik debris]

76. You are dealing in stereotypes, not semantics

The only characteristic common to all atheists is that theists disagree with us. If you attribute other characteristics to us, you are stereotyping us and that is mildly offensive to some and intensely offensive to others. Please don't do that. Thank you.

[mike_c]

85. I hope the irony of this discussion gets through to someone....

I mean, I'm an atheist too, and ya'll have all been busy trying to undercut my beliefs and define them in your terms. I think maybe we're just talking at cross purposes. I have never tried to attribute specific characteristics to anyone other than myself, beyond a general statement equivalant to "we all have specific characteristics." Sheesh. I speak only for myself, but my worldview IS my worldview, whether you are comfortable with that notion or not. I am not circumscribed by what I don't believe-- that is only incidental to what I do believe in-- the universe has no need for gods or other supernatural causes.

Perhaps it will make you more comfortable if I say: I am an atheist-- that's part of MY worldview. Other atheists might not have worldviews.

How that's possible is beyond me, but if you want to maintain that you have no perspective on how the universe operates then more power to you.

[Goblinmonger]

86. Perhaps you are getting flack

because you are one of our own. We are pretty sick and tired of theists tell us that we believe something and what that belief is. We don't want to give them any more ammunition.

I have a world view. Everyone does. The part of my world view that is atheism ONLY deals with my disbelief in any gods. That's it. It tells people nothing more. You have to go to other areas to understand my vegetarianism, animal rights views, literary predilictions, cinema likes, scientific understandings and thoughts, etc. Atheism is only good to understand my disbelief in deities. To argue that my being an atheist means that I am rational, kind, loving, immoral, baby-eating, or anything else is to stereotype based on my disbelief.

[cosmik debris]

87. Oh, I have a world view,

But it is not related in any way to my disbelief. In fact, the only time I think about my atheism is when someone brings up theism or some similar belief.

I do have a perspective on how the universe operates but it is not related to any other belief or disbelief. And it is certainly not a perspective held commonly by atheists or any other group except perhaps some scientists. (and even they disagree)

[bloom]

88. I noticed it.

I never thought it looked like you were speaking for all atheists or any such thing.

A good deal of the arguments around here are based on either semantics - or misunderstandings.

Of course sometimes - some people are out to insult what other people think, believe, know, do or otherwise - but that's a whole different thing - generally.

[trotsky]

40. There's a distinction here that BMUS is making but you're not getting.

Yes, atheists have world views.

But there is no specific "atheist world view."

I don't think one can call the lack of belief in gods a world view in and of itself - do you?

[mike_c]

42. sure it is-- I believe in a rational world that has no need for gods....

Why isn't that a "worldview?" It sure feels like one to me. Why would believing in supernatural causes be a worldview, but not believing in them not be? They're just two sides of the same coin.

Sure there's no "single" atheist philosophy, but likewise there's no single theist belief.

[Goblinmonger]

44. Because beyond that

you can be anything. All it means is that you lack a belief in any god. You could big the biggest prick in the world past your lack of belief. And of course there isn't any single theist belief, that is why they are subdivided into the religions. Does that happen with atheists (beyond strong and weak, which many would argue is hair-splitting)? Nope. That is because the LACK of a belief does not establish a world view.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Like a jewish atheist.

Hi IMModerate! :hi:

[Goblinmonger]

55. Or a Czech-American atheist.

Thats me :thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

67. Or an Uppity one.

[Goblinmonger]

70. Some day

when I am down in fundie land, you and I will have to have a meeting of uppity atheists and put back a few in the name of godlessness.

[beam me up scottie]

73. You're on! Except we'll have to do it in the next county, this one is dry.

I was wrong, there is a hell...

[Goblinmonger]

75. Or you can come up here.

We have beer coming out of the water fountains. Only problem is that it is Miller.

Why do Americans drink their beer cold? So they can tell it apart from piss.

Give me a nice dark ale and I'm happy. Or a white Russian. Hell, most any vodka based drink (that's the Polish heritage in me fighting to get out.)

[beam me up scottie]

81. Gin and tonic for me.

That or any good import or micro-brewery ale.

[Goblinmonger]

83. Gin is too "evergreeny" for me

but I let people decide their own beliefs about the alcohol they drink or don't :rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

84. You slacker.

What kind of evil godless heathen are you?

[Evoman]

89. Lol...where the fuck do you live and why the fuck do you live there?!.

Jebus christ on a cracker...every time you post, I feel more sorry for you. I feel like I have to establish some sort of underground railroad to Canada to get you out of there.

Lol....not only should we all go and drink in BMUS's hood, we should do so publicly and with much revelry. Maybe we should even think about bussing in some strippers (no worries...both male and female).

[beam me up scottie]

90. On another planet, I think.

Still scraping and saving to try to get back home.

Boy could this place use a few dive bars.

Jeez, I didn't even know dry counties still existed until I moved here.



On edit, have you seen my (shameless self kick) thread in GD?: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2511557

[mike_c]

51. see #50....

eom

[Zhade]

99. It's YOUR worldview - not all atheists share it.

We might, but you wouldn't know it by my only telling you I'm an atheist - all you would have knowledge of regarding how I think and view reality is that I lack belief in gods (based on the lack of corroborating evidence for them).

To think I would hold the same views as you based on my atheism is to assume I hold views you don't know for a fact I hold. I may, and even then may have arrived at them independent of my atheism.

Let me give you an example that may clear it up a little: I used to try to believe (never took, I can't trick myself into believing things for which there is no evidence). I also knew, for example, that science has shown the age of the earth is millions, not thousands, of years old, that a worldwide flood is physically impossible, that dinosaurs existed.

Once I accepted my lack of belief in gods, I continued to acknowledge these scientific facts. It had nothing to do with my atheism whatsoever.

So, atheists MAY have your worldview, but until you ask them about the different components of that worldview, you won't know anything except that we lack belief in gods, just like you.

Does that make sense?

[Evoman]

91. "I won't speak for other folks"

Then don't. Because none of the other atheists agree with you. Atheism is not "part of my world view" simply because its a non-issue. Atheists have a world view, but the world view is not based on atheism is what I'm trying to say.

Personally, my world view is a result of my upbringing in a latin household and my training as a scientist....both independent of atheism. If anything, I see atheism simply as a response to other people, not as a view on its own.

You could argue that maybe anti-theism is a world view, and I might agree with you there. And atheism may be part of your world-view (I don't know how that can be, but if you think it is..), but you can't automaticaly say that any other atheists shares that view. There are people who are atheist (don't have a belief in god), but who believe all sorts of other mumbo jumbo about ghosts, and astral worlds, and reincarnation...do you share their world view?

[Zhade]

98. Believe it or not, this atheist thought about going to one.

I love to sing, and it's about the closest thing to spirituality I come.

But when even UU people think I'm religious, when I utterly LACK any religion whatsoever...it makes me think twice.

It's a shame, too. I really wanted to sing with a choir that wouldn't push the god thing; now I don't know where to look.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. Hi, Mike, I'm a Unitarian

Yes, we have respect for atheists, too.

Attend UU services sometime. You might be surprised.

As somebody said speaking for the Unitarian Church, "You have questions; so do we."

BTW, did you hear about the neighborhood who got upset when the Unitarians moved in? They burned a question mark on their front lawn.

[mike_c]

7. LOL-- that's a good one....

Thanks for the chuckle. I really didn't mean to disparage anyone's religious views-- hope you didn't take offense.

[TygrBright]

13. And then there's my favorite Uni-Uni joke:

Q: "What do you get when you cross a Unitarian with a Jehovah's Witness?"

A: "Someone who goes around knocking on doors for no particular reason."

heheheh... God love 'em, the Uni-Unies are a Light in the darkness.

lovingly,
Bright

[beam me up scottie]

9. You're exactly right.

"Imagine a religion where people with different beliefs worship as one faith."

"You don't have to believe certain things about God or no God, Jesus or Buddha, one truth or many truths. We come from many different paths, all seeking a religion with room for deep questions that might have more than one answer."

I have no problem if liberal believers worship one god or many, but trying to convince atheists to join a "religion" isn't going to work.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

14. I suppose my first question would be why would an atheist want

to go to a church in the first place? Doesn't being an atheist by definition mean that you would not have an interest in attending a church?

[Spinzonner]

19. Atheism is a the disbelief in the existence of deities

not a rejection of religion, which encompasses more belief systems than just theistic ones. As such, to the extent that a church does not represent a theistic religion, I don;t see that it's excluded.

[Nay]

21. In our case, we went to UU to be with like-minded people. There

were a good number of atheists at our UU church, also agnostics, New Agers, Buddhists, etc., but we were (nearly) all very well educated, well-read, interesting folks who wanted to make the world a better place through good works and by supporting each other.

It's not for everybody, but if you're an atheist (or anyone disgusted with the way other religions have been acting), try UU.

[Nay]

20. Heck, yes. Mr. Nay and I were presidents of our UU church, and

we are atheists. Tons of atheists and agnostics go to UU churches.

[TAPat]

23. The UU church my partner, our daughter and I have

just begun attending would have absolutely no problem with atheists - I am quite sure that there are atheist members of the group.

These people are very much about social justice and they walk the walk!

[rox63]

24. The UU minister that officiated at my wedding

was an atheists. So not only do UU's work atheists into their world-view, they've also been known to ordain them. :)

[Finder]

25. I am an atheist who occasionally attends UU services.

The focus is on social justice. There are more atheists and deists than theists who attend the services from what I have seen. The worldview is rational.

[A HERETIC I AM]

8. UU'rs have the highest rate of Post-Graduate Degrees among their

Congregations than virtually any other denomination, faith or religion in the US.

In other words, well educated, intelligent and open minded people that welcome Atheists, Wiccans, Pagans, Christians and anyone else as long as they simply understand the basic idea that we are all seeking basic truths, however they are defined by each of us.

[beam me up scottie]

15. If I'm seeking a "basic truth" that can only be defined by me,

why would I need to go to a church or join a religion?

[Nay]

22. Because your ideas and approach to defining your "basic truth"

can be refined and brought into better focus by discussion and debate with other educated, like-minded people.

Having said that, I never attended UU churches for defining any basic truths--I went because I was tired of being surrounded by dittohead dummies, and my only relief was to talk with normal people at UU on Sunday, and to make friends there.

[beam me up scottie]

28. And I need to go to church to do that?

The problem I have with people who claim UU isn't a religion is the same one I have with all of the UU's who claim that it is.

[Finder]

32. Well it is considered a religious sect by the IRS...

and does the good works that religions are expected to do...feed the poor, provide fellowship in a community, embrace knowledge, etc...

The big difference is they do not discriminate based on gender, lifestyle, economics or accuse each other of heresy. Education, scientific inquiry, rational debate is encouraged.

[beam me up scottie]

36. I have nothing against liberal believers, UU or any other kind.

I'm just not shopping for a religion because I don't want or need a religion.

[Goblinmonger]

43. I am a member of a UU fellowship

and I would strongly argue that it is NOT a religion. There is no dogma to be believed. There are no requirements as to belief other than the basic principles which come down to "don't be a dick." It is a good solid community of progressive thinking people who are trying to figure out what it's all about. They are welcoming of a hell of a lot of different concepts about what it's all about including my atheism.

Why do I go? It provides a good community for my kids to learn about world religions and I get to hang out with cool liberal people.

[beam me up scottie]

45. But again, others say it is a religion.

It looks more like Dogma Free Diet Church Lite.

[Goblinmonger]

57. That's exactly how I see it.

And it is great for my kids. My daughter just said today that she learns a lot in her "religious education" class. They talk about Ghandi, the civil rights movement, other religions and it provides her with a fabulous base of knowledge. Same with my son but he gets the watered down version because he is still in the grade-school program.

Plus I get to hang out with cool people that don't hate me for my atheism. I'm even singing in the choir.

[beam me up scottie]

61. It probably is better for kids to learn about all religions in that setting.

Instead of being indoctrinated into one.

[Goblinmonger]

65. You know it.

I'll let them make up their own minds as adults. As it stands right now, I would guess that my daughter will be an atheist like daddy and my son will be a deist like his mommy (my son, 10 years old, could be a liberal Christian--possibly UCC--but he tends to think the whole Jesus bit is unbelieveable and probably unlikely; my daughter, 13, just laughs if I ask her if she believes in Jesus).

[kwassa]

95. the world has ended ..... I agree with BMUS!

perfect description.

I grew up as a Unitarian.

"It looks more like Dogma Free Diet Church Lite"

indeed!

[mike_c]

48. my first thought upon reading some of the responses in this thread...

...was "why on earth would atheists (like myself) want to attend a church of any sort?" I think your comments above answered that question. But why do Unitarians refer to their community as a "church" if it is not, strictly speaking, a wholly religious community?

[Goblinmonger]

52. I don't know."

That is the main problem I have with the fellowship. I know it has its roots in Christian theology, but it is not that now. One of the ministers in our fellowship refers to UU as a "faith community" which just seems overly bizarre to me since there is nothing in UU to have faith in.

I think the term "church" is just a nice colloquial word that means "a place where people go to talk about spirituality and shit" which certainly DOES happen at UU. The claims of it being a religion I can't explain because I don't buy it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

94. Historical reasons, mainly

In Christian history, there has always been at least one movement that rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Different unitarian movements have had different theologies: some held that Jesus was never more than a human teacher, some that he was a prophet similar to Moses and Isaiah, some that he was "infused" with deity at his baptism. Modern Unitarianism draws from a Protestant movement that surfaced in the early 14th century. As such, Unitarian congregations have always referred to themselves as churches, as many see the doctrine of the Trinity as an unbiblical heresy. That is not to say that Unitarians are theologically reactionary: Unitarianism has always attracted freethinkers and others who were willing to challenge the orthodoxy of their day.

Universalism, still a small movement outside of the UUA, is a liberal Protestant belief which holds that Jesus died for the sins of all the world and that every person has been freed from Original Sin, whether or not they are baptized believers. As such, the only requirement for entry into Heaven is to live a good life; it is basically a theologically based humanism. Beyond that doctrine, Universalists have traditionally been open to many different expressions of religious belief. Even so, Universalists have generally started with a Christian worldview and so have organized themselves as churches.

In 1961, a group of Universalist churches and a group of Unitarian churches decided that their similarities made them closer than their differences set them apart; thus was born the Unitarian Universalist Association. Drawing on the traditions of both movements, congregations continued to use the word "church."

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

101. UU is an attitude.

I would just add that UU is understood by many of us to be more of a temperament--a "way of looking at" life, including matters of religion-- than a particular body of dogma. I often describe our "UU trinity"--the core assumptions of our 400-year-old liberal-religious movement-- as individuality, community and evolution;

(1) UU is sometimes called the "Faith of the Free" because of the unusually strong importance this "stubbornly protestant" tradition (attitude) has placed upon the basic notion of individual free-agency/self-determination of truth. Over the centuries, our "radical-Reformation" faith has insisted that each person is uniquely created, and therefore has a sacred right (and arguably a duty) to think for themselves, to ask their own questions, to draw their own conclusions, even to hold and express their own honest doubts, without pressure or fear of retaliation. One of the great early Unitarian leaders, Francis David, preached that "we need not think alike to love alike" and that still pretty well sums up the core of our UU attitude. Later, self-professed Unitarian Thomas Jefferson wrote to his nephew/ward Peter Carr that he should always "question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear." Again, that's the UU attitude speaking.

(2) But as David said, the goal is "to love alike" and UU doesn't just stop with rugged individualism. Starting with an understanding that "no man is an island," modern Universalism says that not only is the individual uniqueness of "all souls" to be respected, but also that in this universe, "all things and all souls are ultimately interconnected" and interdependent--even us. This idea of the "kinship of all souls" (as children of a common creation, and presumably sharing both a common source and common destiny) is a far cry from the original Universalist theology that was preoccupied with whether Hell existed or not, and if so, who ultimately goes there, if anyone. (This concept of interconnectedness/ interdependence was especially advanced by the 19th century Unitarian "Transcendentalists," and is both closely aligned with some of the insights of Eastern religion, and is scientifically sound.)

(3) This may be the most important of our core assumptions of all...the humble affirmation of "continuing revelation," that truth is always unfolding and therefore nobody has, ever had, or ever will have, "all the answers" or a monopoly on Truth. As Jefferson suggested, some commitment to critical questioning is essential to being a UU, and since this attitude relies largely upon "inductive reasoning" (more than deductive), that's why UU is the world's most explicitly creedless approach to religion---also why it's been called the "church of the holy curiosity" and why so many scientists and inventors over the centuries have been a part of this explicitly evolutionary religious tradition...including Charles Darwin. This commitment to "more light and truth yet to break forth" also explains why not even the boundaries of traditional Christianity could contain it.

Well...sorry to be so long-winded, but maybe this little short-course about what I believe to be the three core-assumptions of our centuries-old "free-spirit religious tradition"---for which many have suffered and died, by the way---will help you to better understand why we feel that in this faster-moving, ever-shrinking, deeply troubled world, we could do worse than to make sure that folks have at least have a chance to know more about this "Faith of the Free" and it's "liberal gospel" of non-dogmatic, critical-thinking, "e pluribus unum democracy affirming," scientifically-friendly religion (as respectfully and non-invasively as possible, of course).

Ron

[kwassa]

104. Where is the documentation that Jefferson was a Unitarian church member?

No, he wasn't. I think the Unitarian church claims many who weren't, one of it's more annoying habits.

http://www.famousuus.com/bios/thomas_jefferson.htm

Was Thomas Jefferson really a Unitarian?

Like many others of his time (he died just one year after the founding of institutional Unitarianism in America), Jefferson was a Unitarian in theology, though not in church membership. He never joined a Unitarian congregation: there were none near his home in Virginia during his lifetime. He regularly attended Joseph Priestley's Pennsylvania church when he was nearby, and said that Priestley's theology was his own, and there is no doubt Priestley should be identified as Unitarian. Jefferson remained a member of the Episcopal congregation near his home , but removed himself from those available to become godparents, because he was not sufficiently in agreement with the trinitarian theology. His work, The Jefferson Bible, was Unitarian in theology. For a slightly different analysis ( one that slights the fact that the Unitarians were not formally organized into a sect until 1825 ), see the relevant "Matters of Fact" factsheet at the Monticello website.

[TechBear_Seattle]

109. Unitarians believe

Sorry, but your mention of a "UU trinity" reminded me of a joke I once heard: Unitarians believe in the Fatherhood of God and the neighborhood of Boston. :hi:

[Zhade]

100. That's your right, GM, but do you realize they think you're religious?

From above:

"At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions."

They don't even get that atheism is a LACK of religion, not a religion itself.

[jarnocan]

16. My kids have had atheist and even a 'witch' as UU Sunday school teachers

There are many wonderful things that happen at some UU chuches, finding community, serving your community, working toward peace and for other important causes, helping people. Education and other great activites for kids and families ETC. I miss it. We have a boat.
One thing they can't do is threaten you with hell fire if you don't attend.:)

[kwassa]

96. and the results from the advertising ...

from the article:
"The reaction so far has been decidedly mixed. Though some congregations are reporting record attendance, Unitarian officials say the campaign hasn't yet moved the needle on their national number of 250,000 members in about 1,000 congregations"