A lot of people say a lot of things about God. How can we tell who is right?

[More Than A Feeling]

It's an important question, with potentially eternal consequences. What if I'm wrong about what I think God is like? Maybe God doesn't care...but maybe he/she/it does. We'd have to know that first. Perhaps we should just have faith...or maybe that's the first step off the cliff as far as God is concerned. We could look in the Bible...unless God hates the Bible and cackles with delight as he/she/it plans the eternal pain that awaits anyone who looks at it. Maybe we can't say anything positive about God...unless that displeases God, who thinks that he/she/it has made perfectly clear the positive things that are to be said. What standard could be used?

How can we know? If you say we aren't meant to know, how do you know that?

[Sammy Pepys]

I've always been convinced that...

...that is for you and you alone to figure out.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. I'll take this up

with God the very next time I talk to Her, and I'll get back to you with what She says.

[okieinpain]

2. yeah, i was wondering why the homeless guy that's out on the

corner screaming that the lord told him so is crazy. but the rest of us are considered sane, is it just a matter of your appearance.

[Ian David]

3. Stand in the middle of an open field, holding a metal golf club...

during a lightning storm, and let god decide who he likes best.

[BOSSHOG]

7. I think the bad weathers behind us Bishop

[SidDithers]

67. Make it a 1-iron, and you'll be safe...

'cause even God can't hit a 1-iron.

Sid

[BOSSHOG]

4. Believe what you choose to believe

and seek spirituality and religious solace where you choose. My two cents worth; we are in the land of the free, be free to believe what you want but don't strive to force your beliefs on others, (ie constitutional amendments restricting liberties of those you "believe" just don't measure up.)

[More Than A Feeling]

10. What about people who spend their entire lives studying theology?

Doesn't all that time and effort spent give some insight and authority on what God is like?

[BOSSHOG]

11. Sure

What's that got to do with forcing people to believe what you believe via codification? I have some deeply felt religious beliefs and I keep them to myself.

However I believe a theologian is dealing with theories. A person who has studied math for years can prove that 2 plus 2 equals 4. Apples and oranges. What is God like vs concrete evidence?

[More Than A Feeling]

14. Nothing, and everything to do with figuring out whether beliefs are true

Isn't believing what is true, and disbelieving what is false important?

[BOSSHOG]

17. I "believe" there is an incredible difference

Between believing something and knowing something. I "believe" that Mike Schmidt is the greatest third baseman ever to play the game but I know there are many who do not believe that. I know that Jackson is the capitol of Mississippi. Won't get much argument about that, except from those who don't "know" any better.

[More Than A Feeling]

19. So the answer to the question "What is God like?"

is going to be an opinion based on criteria that are themselves opinions? (You: "Mike Schmidt is the greatest third baseman ever because he had the most homeruns of any third baseman." Me: "The greatest third baseman is defined by how he fields in the World Series. Therefore, Brooks Robinson is the greatest." for example.)

[BOSSHOG]

23. I guess I'm just a slow guy

I'm having difficulty keeping up with your conversation.

I "believe" robinson may have been a smidging better on defense then Schmidt - maybe! (and robinson didn't play as much on artificial turf, no friend of third basemen.) But there offensive stats were light years apart. And narrowing your beliefs to a short period of time (world series) narrows your argument.

And you misquoted me. I didn't mention anything about Schmidt's homeruns but thank you very much. 548 steroid free dingers.

I don't know what God is like. But I do know what a saturday afternoon game watching Mike Schmidt at the Vet was "like." It was like Heaven on earth.

[More Than A Feeling]

28. The Schmidt/Robinson exchange was an example

analoguous to my summary of the way you were talking about God and knowledge thereof.

I used to be a huge baseball history buff, but not so much anymore. If you had asked me 12 years ago, I could have given you a better discussion of great third basemen, sorry!:(

[BOSSHOG]

30. God Bless Ya

I hope you know what we were chatting about relative to believing and knowing. That would make one of us. And what they heck is analoguous?

[More Than A Feeling]

31. a horrendous misspelling, that's what!

It's supposed to be analogous, which as we both know, is the adjective form of analogy.

I was characterizing your distinction between believing and knowing as the same as the difference between opinion and fact. Then I was saying that the criteria on which opinions are based are also questionable.

[BOSSHOG]

45. Okay I'm trying to keep up

I base my very high and favorable opinion of Mike Schmidt on the indisputable facts of his fielding percentage and offensive statistics. Is that questionable? My opinion is that the Indiana State Baseketball team with an incredible assist by the Zebras won the 1979 NCAA basketball tourney game against the Arkansas Razorbacks. Review of the tape offers me great ammo. I'm still in therapy over that game. But the NCAA just had to have a Bird-Magic final when we all know that Sidney Moncrief deserved to be in that game. But that's just my opinion.

I can believe in God and tell you what I think he's like but I can't prove it.

One fact I am sure of. I have to go to New Orleans today for some retiree business topped off by lunch in the quarter. In my opinion its a great neighborhood to have a meal. I'd move Heaven and Earth to eat there several times a year. Maybe we can chat more later.

Another indisputable fact; the "world champion" St Louis Cardinals didn't have a regular season record good enough to be in second place in the NL East. Fretting over such matters will no doubt hasten my demise. Fact or opinion?

[Zhade]

37. Honestly? No.

They have no more to go on than you do, and it's all lacking corroborating evidence.

They have no more authority on the issue, or insight into "what god/gods is/are like" (indeed, on the question of if gods even EXIST) than you or I do.

I think you ask a very important question in the OP, one that shows a keen mind and a justified sense of doubt about the whole thing. I salute your questioning!

[Finder]

46. No, just the opposite in most cases...n/t

[Nolo_Contendre]

5. Obviously God is on the side of t winners

Because poor people and war orphans would be rich and alive if God was on their side.

[fjc]

6. How can we know? If you say we aren't meant to know, how do you know that?

Thank you, Woody Allen.

[Deep13]

8. If you find that perplexing, this will knock your socks off.

If you were Satan and it was your job for whatever reason to turn people away from God/gods, whatever that may mean, how would you do it? Direct confrontation is out because people already know you are the Evil One(tm) and the effort would just push your victims away. The best way, really the only way, is by deception. The best way to turn people against God is to make them think you (Satan) are God. How do we know that the God of monotheism is not really Satan in disquise? How do we know that the Bible, for instance, is not Satan's propoganda piece designed to divide and conquer us? Many of his instructions and the behavior of his followers seem more in line with destructive evil than anything loving or creative.

[CJCRANE]

15. Reminds me of William Blake:

"both read the Bible day and night but they read black where I read white".

Also the Gnostic Christians had some interesting ideas along the same lines, i.e. that the God of the Old Testament is not the same as the God of the New Testament (and that Jesus was in fact the serpent in the Garden of Eden)...

[BlueEyedSon]

9. The president of the United States has claimed,

on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.

--Sam Harris

[Zensea]

12. I know this

You aren't going to find any answers here.

[More Than A Feeling]

13. Why won't I?

[Zensea]

16. Forgot to say why --

You'll only find the answers in yourself is the basic answer.

Another answer would be that finding the answers to these sorts of questions on a politics discussion board is highly unlikely.

Of course to be consistent, neither of these two answers is going to be the answer either (which is why I didn't really forget to say why).

[Hulsey13]

22. Religion/Theology Forum

I think this is a perfect place for a discussion on this topic. It is the Religion/Theology Forum, after all.

You may be right, though, about the answers coming from within.

[Zensea]

25. that is your answer :)

:)
Agreed it is a good place to discuss the subject, but as for actually finding an answer here ....?
Speaking for myself, I have yet to see anything discussed on a political discussion board that has been particularly useful in my finding answers to this sort of question.
Politics (the world of the "outside") and religion (the world of the "inside") in my experience are two completely different languages, even if their effects intersect.
Again, speaking for myself.
Maybe your experience will be different.

[CJCRANE]

18. Humans are herd animals.

Generally they will agree with others in their group as a form of bonding, it has little to do with rationality.

[moobu2]

33. I agree with you

[Hulsey13]

20. Quite the debate, eh?

Religion is one of the most sensitive subjects there is, and I believe that is because people feel they have so much riding on the outcome. Many believers feel comfortable with their own spiritual beliefs, and those of other people are not much of a concern. Others, though, seem to believe that they must convert everyone around them to their way of thinking.

Personally, I appreciate the Unitarian Universalist stance. In layman's terms, they believe that you are welcome to bring whatever religious belief you carry, provided you allow others that same respect. It is not about "I'm right, you're wrong," as much as it is "there is light to be found, and it may not all be in the same room... or even inside a room at all."

[supernova]

21. Must any one person be right?

One person, no matter how well-educated and steeped in theology s/he might be, is not going to be 100% correct.

You can only figure out what feels right for you and let go of the rest.

[More Than A Feeling]

26. If there are consequences to getting it right or wrong...

then nobody HAS to be right, but it would be bad for them if they were wrong.

If it doesn't matter, then I could say God will turn out to be a ham sandwich that lasted for 10,000 years and then was eaten and disappeared forever, and it wouldn't be better or worse than saying anything else or nothing at all.

[supernova]

27. "If there are consequences...

There are always consequences of our actions and beliefs. It's a matter of deciding which ones you want to live with.

[Realityhack]

24. The way you word your question...

pre-suposes that god exists. What is the basis for that?

[More Than A Feeling]

29. How does it do that?

[Realityhack]

32. Well.

You may not have intended it but the post goes on at some lenght about what god may or may not want us to do but never mentions the possibility that there is not a god.

Its not the question 'who is right about god?' but rather the explanation that pre-suposes a god.

[trotsky]

34. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the primary pieces of evidence...

AGAINST the existence of an all-powerful god who cares about humans.

It's not just that people disagree about various aspects of god, it's that they VIOLENTLY disagree and have proven time and time again throughout history they'll kill each other to show it.

An omnipotent and omnibenevolent god could stop this violence once and for all by merely planting adequate information about itself into every human's mind. Doesn't have to rise to the level of "proof", and it doesn't have to interfere with anyone's "free will" either. Seems like a pretty simple task for an omnipotent god. But it's not the case.

[Odin2005]

36. Exactly, it's the same Q the OP asks that made me become an Atheist.

After 9/11 we were bombarded with stuff about Islamic Fundimentalism, that's when the "who's right" question hit me like a sledgehammer.

[Ron Green]

35. Whatever anyone says about God is just a little piece of the truth.

What everyone says about God is much closer.

[Zhade]

38. So gods both exist and don't exist?

Believers say they do.

Strong atheists (which I am not) say gods don't exist.

Both groups are included in "everyone" saying things about gods.

They can't both be right. So what does your expression mean?

[Ron Green]

41. They're all right in some way.

Like the 5 blind men describing the elephant . . . and there's another blind man standing off to the side (the atheist) who says there is no elephant. We each have a little piece of the story (there is indeed no elephant where the sixth guy is standing), but it takes millenia of human experience and study to get a little bit closer to the whole.

God has many names (one of them being "there is no god"), but if God exists, then God must be infinite, containing all names and ideas of "god" and "non-god" that humans, in their limited way, can understand.

So I disagree that they can't both be right. Anyone true to himself is right in the sight of God, although unfortunately not according to some other group of humans.

[trotsky]

47. But the various ideas of god can be in direct contradiction.

With the elephant, the various properties described are not inherently contradictory - obviously, since an elephant truly does exist and has a whip-like tail, big floppy ears, wrinkly thick skin, a long trunk, and stout legs. Can god condemn people to hell for not accepting Jesus AND accept everyone into heaven AND return all souls to earth in reincarnation, all at the same time?

[Ron Green]

48. "God can"

I believe this idea of a god who does things misses the mark somewhat. All the concepts of God, or non-concepts of god or gods, are of course part of human understanding in its variety. I'm suggesting that God, if "he" exists, is all of this, and more. The apparent contradictions about whether it's a one-way trip, or eternal flames, or harps and clouds, or whatever - these are all human-created ideas, as I'm sure we agree - don't exist in the highest infinite and eternal reality, to which we have the smallest of clues. What we do know is that humans connect with each other in a way that's different in kind from how the other creatures do it, and that we make choices to spread love or to respond fearfully to our world. We also know that over many centuries humans have gained lots of scientific knowledge, and it's brought us somewhat closer to understanding the world, but not much closer to the "big questions" of existence. However, the wisdom of the classic Greeks and the Renaissance thinkers has borne study and scrutiny all these years as well, and "god" continues to be an idea that won't go away. As I've shared with you before, my view is that not only individual humans but society as a group is "hard-wired" for God, being the Freudian superego or parent-nature that gives us ethics and morals.

My main concern is that this essential part of our human existence not be corrupted into fear-based actions (as it most certainly has throughout history), but that an enlightened view be put forward. It's difficult for people to grasp the idea of transcendence - they want a firm father figure to tell them what to do - but I believe learning to live with the contradictions in various theologies is absolutely essential to a peaceful planet.

[trotsky]

49. So, your god is this vast and incredible and ultimately unknowable thing...

yet you embrace an analogy with a simple creature on earth to describe it? Surely such an impossibly complex concept shouldn't even have a remote analogue among simple animals on earth, should it?

these are all human-created ideas, as I'm sure we agree - don't exist in the highest infinite and eternal reality, to which we have the smallest of clues

Actually since we wouldn't have the "smallest of clues" about this "highest infinite and eternal reality", isn't it just as likely they COULD exist?

"god" continues to be an idea that won't go away

So does pedophilia. And rape. And war. We (at least some humans in every era) appear to be hard-wired for all of those as well.

I believe learning to live with the contradictions in various theologies is absolutely essential to a peaceful planet.

I do too - but I don't think that insisting the contradictions aren't really there is the way to go.

[Ron Green]

50. The subject of the verb "don't exist" is not "ideas," but "contradictions."

What I'm saying is that the contradictions don't exist in a realm beyond human limitations, not that the ideas don't.

Also - pedophilia, rape and war, as you point out, won't go away and seem to be part of our makeup. I agree, and maintain that these fear-based activities will always be something against which we will struggle by overcoming the fear of other people and seeking our true selves. Of course I characterize this as the "God Self."

:-)

[trotsky]

51. OK, but my point still stands.

So this "highest infinite and eternal reality" supposedly exists, "to which we have the smallest of clues." Why can't contradictions be part of it? You're saying there's this vast plane of existence beyond the known universe, wouldn't a property of this place be that things incredibly different than what we accept as normal here might just be pretty ordinary there? Things that maybe are in direct opposition to what we think of as normal? Like the possibility that contradictions CAN exist? But no, with "the smallest of clues" you're making a pronouncement about this alternate reality. I find that confusing.

I agree, and maintain that these fear-based activities will always be something against which we will struggle by overcoming the fear of other people and seeking our true selves.

And perhaps the idea of gods is something fear-based as well, that we should struggle to overcome. That sword can cut both ways.

[Ron Green]

66. I agree that some ideas of gods are fear-based indeed.

Some people have to have enemies, so they have an enemy-smiting god. Some refuse to grow up, so they have a father-figure god. And so on. I see all these ideas as true for them, yet false because they're such limited concepts.

[Dorian Gray]

59. While I agree that

if one believes in this concept of God, using a simple earthly creature as an analogy won't provide an exact idea of what God is, it's also our only point of comparison. We only understand fully that which we know. So, we use those tools to understand the Supernatural, as well. The Supernatural doesn't need to be described, either. And I know that many would argue that it doesn't exist. But, for those who do believe it does, the only terms in which we can describe it is in terms in which we, as humans, have understanding and experience.

[trotsky]

62. Just smacks of wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

What it sounds like is being said, is "Here's an analogy that illustrates a point I'm making about an infinite and unknowable god."

If your god is infinitely complex and can never be understood by mere human minds, then NO analogy could ever begin to approximate some aspect of this infinitely complex being. Just like you can't take 1/3 of infinity, an infinite being by definition could never be divided into knowable parts. Each part would be infinitely complex.

Seems like most folks are just making it up as they go along.

[bananas]

44. That's what I believe.

Is light a particle or a wave?
It can't be both.
Or can it?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
How far can a dog run into a forest?

Does god exist? Depends on who's asking...

[struggle4progress]

39. Maybe religion isn't really about "answers" to "questions"

[More Than A Feeling]

42. Then what is it about?

[struggle4progress]

43. That sounds like another question to which you want another answer

[Danger Mouse]

40. Simply put.

We can't 'know' who is 'right'.
We can only believe what we believe, or choose not to believe.
That is our choice.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. You can't.

You have to figure it out for YOURSELF. Ask the questions and see if you get the answers. Look at your life. Listen to that still, inner voice. Take your medication. Then decide.

[More Than A Feeling]

53. My medication?

Apologies for not understanding, but are you implying that I am mentally or physically impaired, or that substance use is a possible path to God?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

54. Nah

I'm being very silly.

Although I think that certain substances open one's mind quite a bit for sure.

My references was to the "still inner voice" and actually I hear it all the time. And have learned to listen to it. And it often says things I don't want to hear.

[JerseygirlCT]

55. You can't KNOW

that's why it's called faith.

Listen to your heart, use your brain, and trust.

[More Than A Feeling]

58. In your view, why should people have faith?

[JerseygirlCT]

60. I think perhaps people either do or do not have it.

Whether those who have it exercise it is another question.

For those so inclined, that faith can be a wonderfully sustaining thing, enriching their lives, bringing comfort and joy. Truly.

For those who don't seem so inclined, I guess it all seems pointless.

[immoderate]

56. Each person has his or her own god.

It is an aspect of the personality. It exists in your head.

--IMM

[More Than A Feeling]

57. In other words, people who say you should worship their god

are really telling you to worship them?

[immoderate]

64. Not knowingly.

But when someone describes their god, it corresponds to their personality type.

--IMM

[kwassa]

61. I disagree pretty completely.

There are both individual understandings and collective understandings of God. I can resonate strongly to others' concepts of God, which shows that we have a very similar perception and experience. Otherwise there would be no reason to attend any group ceremony celebrating God's existence, because there would be nothing to connect with.

God is infinitely greater than our ability to either percieve his totality, or understand that totality, so to say that God is entirely one thing and not another may be reaching beyond our ability to know.

[immoderate]

63. People are affiliative. They like joining groups.

We are social beings. People belonging to a group is not any indication of whether there is a supernatural (or whatever) entity. There are commonalities of psychology that lend themselves to following an ideology. When you examine individual beliefs you find there are differences, even among those that profess the same religion. I like group ceremonies. I attend any religious observance where the food is good.

Seriously, I find weddings, funerals, christenings, etc., to be cathartic in the human sense. I also know people who think black cats, and broken mirrors portend bad events. The fact that people share these beliefs does not make them real.

--IMM

[Meshuga]

65. I don't think it matters who is right or wrong

We all have opinions and cannot prove our theories being that belief of disbelief. My opinion is that the use of a concept of God other than trying to making yourself a better person is a waste a time. I am for people who use the concept of God to achieve goodness and many use it for that purpose. But others, perhaps the majority, use religion and the concept of a God as a way to purge their guilt and ask for forgiveness for being jerkoffs all the time.

God's purpose should be to use Him/Her as a guide to being an ethical human being and a guide to your behavior to improve our world. Other than that it is used to "save your own ass" and I can see why people resent God when some who call themselves religious speak on God's behalf, behave badly, and are only looking to save their own asses.