(Anglican) Archbishop attacks public atheism

[muriel_volestrangler]

The Archbishop of York has condemned what he called the systematic erosion of Christianity from public life.

Dr John Sentamu told lay readers illiberal atheists were undermining Britain's religious heritage.

He criticised government officials for sending Christmas cards marked season's greetings and Torbay council's decision to remove a cross from a crematorium.
...
Earlier this week Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and Catholic leader Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor launched a joint attack on what they called intolerant public atheism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6138486.stm

I'm not quite sure what they mean by 'public atheism', if they think it's intolerant. Presumably they mean more than people declaring their atheism publicly (since they're not themselves that intolerant), but I don't see "Season's Greetings" as at all intolerant. The crematorium room was used by all faiths, and the council therefore thought there shouldn't be a permanent symbol from one religion in it. It was put back in the end, with some curtains that can be drawn across it. I notice they go back to old stories that have since changed (such as that, and the renaming of one city's celebrations as 'Winterval' back in 1998). I'm disappointed the Church of England seems to be trying to start the 'War about Christmas' itself this year, without actually waiting for anything to happen. It's normally above that sort of thing.

[silverweb]

1. Different day, same old shit.

The problem is that some Christians think they have a mandate to convert and rule the world -- by whatever means necessary. They don't want a secular society. They don't want a pluralistic society.

They want to dominate all of society. Period.

Fuck 'em.

[Kerrytravelers]

2. Do the get the o'reiley factor in the UK?

Sorry, world.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. No; but some tabloid newspapers fulfill the same function

by spreading frequently inaccurate stories of something being banned. But this time, the normally moderate Church of England seems to be taking the lead.

[Odin2005]

6. No, but they have the Telegraph and Daily Mail newspapers.

They call the Telegraph the Torygraph for a reason!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Disappointing, since when I was in York, he was holding a vigil for

peace in the Middle East.

I suppose a lot of older people in the UK remember when it wasn't so multicultural and when the religious spectrum ran all the way from Methodist to C of E to Catholic.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. I think you've got it right there

"I suppose a lot of older people in the UK remember when it wasn't so multicultural and when the religious spectrum ran all the way from Methodist to C of E to Catholic."

From what I've been hearing, there is a thread of British nationalism which combines "solid C of E tradition" with anti-immigrant racism, very similar to what we have in the US. While that is hopefully not the direction of the Archbishop, statements like his do leave me wondering.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. With the Archbishop of York being an immigrant from Uganda himself

it would be very unlikely he'd be trying to stir up anti-immigrant racism. I think he, and the think tank Theos (whose pamphlet, for which the Archbishops of Canterbury and Westminster wrote the foreword they're quoted from, seem to form the basis for his examples) are aiming squarely at secularism.

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. Ah, I didn't know that about him. Thanks for the correction. n/t

[SoftUnderbelly]

5. christianity in england

most people i know here in britain would call themselves an atheist. we just dont care about religion any more, the church of england is about as irrelevent to life today as it gets. most people still put CofE as their religion, but its more of a cultural thing than anything. i dont have a single friend who goes to church for anything other than a wedding, funeral or christening.

people are ok with the CofE remaining the state religion, because it doesnt really do anything. but if they start making a fuss they will soon find out that, actually, no one cares what the vicar thinks any more.

[Kerrytravelers]

7. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

And thanks for the first-hand information!

[NMMNG]

8. Aye caramba

Not this crap again. :eyes:

[kiahzero]

9. Truly, I weep for them.

The poor Church, having to respect the beliefs of others rather than killing them like they used to. :cry:

Sarcasm aside, let's take a look at this argument:
In their foreword to Doing God: A Future for Faith in the Public Square, a report by new religious think tank Theos, they argued against limiting religion to the private sphere.

Campaigners against religion in public life had an "intolerant faith position", they said.

In other words, they are arguing that society (through its agent, the government) not endorsing their group is "intolerant" towards them. This is really bizarre because of its self-defeating implications. Western society has come to a position where tolerance towards all perspectives on divinity is expected. Thus, assuming that these men complaining about "tolerance" aren't hypocritically looking for tolerance for themselves and no one else, their position would require society to endorse all perspectives on religion... which, by staying out of the question entirely, is what governments are increasingly doing.


Of course, assuming that they aren't blatant hypocrites is probably a baseless assumption.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Season's greetings is appropriate when

you don't know the religious belief or non-belief of the person you are greeting. Everybody "celebrates" (or at least observes via the calendar) New Years.

If I know the folks are Christians, I say Merry Christmas. I send cards that say "Season's Greetings" to colleagues and religious cards to family.

It's interesting to me that England has become so secular.

[beam me up scottie]

11. I'm with you, T. Grannie.

When most people say "Merry Christmas" they're not being exclusive.

Where I live, I'd have to be pretty stupid to worry about the little things.

Not when the BIG things that are MEANT to offend are in my face on a daily basis.

Hell, I consider it a good day if they don't burn a cross on my lawn after finding out I'm a closet atheist.:evilgrin:

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. I usually respond to "Merry Christmas" with...

"And a festive Solstice to you!"

I do occasionally get scowls and mutterings of "Keep Christ in Christmas", which (if I have time) prompts a few choice comments about how Christians keep stealing other religions' holy days and isn't stealing a sin? and how the focus should be to keep Sol in Solstice.

When I'm feeling less confrontational, I will wish folks a Happy Festivus. :hi:

[kwassa]

15. from another BBC story on him

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4102960.stm

He has often attacked the Church of England for being institutionally racist.

But he has also played down his reputation as an anti-racist campaigner saying: "Yes definitely I am black but what is important is that I have got a living faith in God.

"I would like people to share my life, my faith, my hope.

"That, to me, is the most important."

He has indicated that he would be happy to ordain women bishops if the Church was to change its rules, and has also criticised the way some members of the Church have spoken about gay people.

[nemo137]

17. So, the take home lesson here is

he's an incredibly complex human being with a headful of sometimes conflicting opinions. Totally unlike, say, any of us.