Elton: religion breeds gay hatred

[struggle4progress]

NICHOLAS CHRISTIAN

SIR Elton John ... In a magazine interview ... said ... "Organised religion doesn't work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate." ...

The musician said people were too busy blogging on the internet to protest for what they believed in.

"They seem to do their protesting online and that's not good enough. You have to get out there and be seen to be vocal, and you've got to do it time and time again ...

John compared his place in British culture with the Queen Mother's, adding that "people treat me very reverently" ...

http://news.scotsman.com/celebrities.cfm?id=1674402006

He's wrong about religion and right about protest ...

[Fridays Child]

1. Hateful lemmings...

That's actually a very good description of most fundies--regardless of the particular religion.

[Christa]

2. Why wrong about religion?

Isn't it MOSTLY religious groups who deem being gay as a sin and thus wrong?

[Deja Q]

6. Hardly.

Disrespect breeds hatred.

And the day I was spat on, called a 'sinner' by a gay guy in a gay bar (January 2005) just because I was a little bit nervious as I hadn't been there before wasn't very nice either...

Mostly religious groups, but the problem is sadly more universal, and ironically fundamental than mere religion.

[Bluebear]

77. Somebody at a gay bar. SPAT on you? And called you a SINNER?

Because you were a little nervous????

THAT could happen. :eyes:

[kiahzero]

17. It's mostly people who do it, too.

I guess we should ban humanity. :sarcasm:

As I said below, it's extremely doubtful that these people would, but for their religion, accept homosexuality. Therefore, it's wrong to draw a causal connection.

[beam me up scottie]

24. A "casual connection" ?

Right.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

How dare we criticize people of faith.

So what if some of them are a bunch of hate mongering brain washed Jesus-bots controlled by religious leaders who use them as foot soldiers in their anti-gay crusade.

Nobody's perfect, right?

[unblock]

3. he's right about SOME religions

or at least about some particular churches and religious organizations.

religion can be a force for good OR evil. at the end of the day, it's in the hands of people, who can themselves be forces of good or evil.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. True enough.

[Christa]

7. Not when

it's preached from the pulpit.

[Dangerously Amused]

5. Nope, he's right about religion too.

He doesn't say it turns ALL people into really hateful lemmings. But it certainly does turn some.

[mitchtv]

8. He is correct about 100%

Religion spawns war and hate and oppression, not to mention hypocrisy. Not that there aren't decent churchgoers, but the mob mentality rules in most cases and the leaders are generally an opportunistic bunch of money/power grubbers

[struggle4progress]

9. So you also support his assessment of his cultural importance?

[mitchtv]

10. Not necesarily

to the degree he believes. I smiled when I read that

[struggle4progress]

11. Just tryin to figure out what your "100%" meant

[mitchtv]

15. on the subject of Religion and gayness

really. I was happy to read however, that he feels loved in GB

[TheBaldyMan]

12. LBN - Pope Benedict to release pop song...

I wouldn't pay too much attention to a pop star when talking about religion.

[struggle4progress]

13. !

[NMMNG]

14. He's right that "Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays."

Take any homophobe and chances are good that his/her objections to homosexuality are going to be based in religion. It is nearly impossible to get people to make statements against homosexuality that don't include quotes from the Bible/Koran/other religious book, or rhetoric from some religious leader. Then there are the people of the "it's not natural" camp, which is a flawed argument. After that you're typically left with the "ick factor", which is not a valid objection by any means.

[kiahzero]

16. Correlation does not imply causation.

Religion just gives some cover to people who would almost certainly be opposed to homosexuality even if they had never conceived of the concept of divinity. In other words, it gives them an excuse for believing what they would have believed anyway.

[Evoman]

18. Without religion, homophobia doesn't make sense. At all.

People who like to eat crackers and wine on Sundays don't join a church just to eat crackers and wine. They buy crackers and wine.

[kiahzero]

19. With religion, it doesn't make sense either.

And perhaps my experience isn't indicative of the majority of cases, but I know plenty of people who go to church just to socialize, and don't really care about the theology of their specific faith group... most of them wouldn't hesitate to go to a different sect of Christianity just because they liked the people or the pastor/minister/whatever-the-hell-you-call-them better.

If you really think that religion is why people are homophobic, why are so many religious people not homophobic? Did they just overcome religion's natural heteronormativity, or are some religion expressions just heteronormative because the people of that religion are heteronormative?

[Evoman]

21. Sure it makes sense with religion.

How doesn't it make sense? If your holy book, the very basis of your religion, tells you that gay people are evil, is it not natural to think that ...gee, I dunno...gay people are evil?

I think that some religious people are not homophobic because of the effects of secularism...i.e. secular society allows gays to LIVE, religious people meet gays, then decide they aren't that bad. In fact, I believe that the liberal christians tendency to pick out only parts of the bible they like to follow IS part of the effect of living in a secular nation.

I mean...seriously. Compare how gays are treated in secular countries, and religious countries. Could you possibly argue that a nation that it is very religious is religious because of their hatred of gays? Lol...like parents are teaching their children to hate gay, and that hatred of gays is what is causing them to be religious. Not likely. There is a causal link...the more religious a person, the greater the chance of being homophobic.

Now, there is a possibility you could be right, of course. But I would only consider your argument if you could at least give me some non-religious reasons for hating gays.

[kiahzero]

23. The fundamental "reason" for hating gays.

It upsets the heteronormative structure that people are familiar with. It's different, which makes it upsetting to most people.

The religious arguments against homosexuality, at least in the case of Christianity, aren't very good. Homosexuality is roughly on par as not being kosher in the Old Testament, and the passages denouncing homosexuality in the New Testament come exclusively from Paul and seem to reference temple prostitution.

As another poster pointed out on another thread, religion doesn't have an impact on this issue - the people who hate gays do so with Christianity, and the people who do not also do so with Christianity.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Religion most certainly does have an impact on this issue .

From those rabid anti-religious atheists at The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life:

Religious Beliefs Underpin Opposition to Homosexuality

Opposition to gay marriage has increased since the summer and a narrow majority of Americans also oppose allowing gays and lesbians to enter legal agreements that fall short of marriage. Moreover, despite the overall rise in tolerance toward gays since the 1980s, many Americans remain highly critical of homosexuals and religious belief is a major factor in these attitudes.

A 55% majority believes it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, and that view is much more prevalent among those who have a high level of religious commitment (76%). About half of all Americans have an unfavorable opinion of gay men (50%) and lesbians (48%), but highly religious people are much more likely to hold negative views.

Religiosity is clearly a factor in the recent rise in opposition to gay marriage. Overall, nearly six-in-ten Americans (59%) oppose gay marriage, up from 53% in July. But those with a high level of religious commitment now oppose gay marriage by more than six-to-one (80%-12%), a significant shift since July (71%-21%). The public is somewhat more supportive of legal agreements for gays that provide many of the same benefits of marriage; still, a 51% majority also opposes this step.

A new national survey of 1,515 adults, conducted Oct. 15-19 by the Pew Research Center for The People & The Press and the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life finds that homosexuality in general not merely the contentious issue of gay marriage is a major topic in churches and other houses of worship. In fact, clergy are nearly as likely to address homosexuality from the pulpit as they are to speak out about abortion or prayer in school, say people who attend church regularly.

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=37

[trotsky]

50. There's more than a few liberal believers on DU...

who believe that homosexuality is a "sin." That should tell us something about homophobia's origins (and support) in religion.

[beam me up scottie]

54. You would think so, wouldn't you?

Welcome to the other side of the rabbit hole.

[salvorhardin]

43. How can you say religion doesn't have an impact?

If someone truly believes homosexuals are amoral, evil, filthy creatures because their Bible tells them so, and they believe what's written in the Bible, then all the liberal interpretations of the Bible in the world won't matter to them. In fact, you'll be seen as being as morally reprehensible as they think homosexuals are for trying to subvert the "word of the Lord". And sadly, we have a lot of people who believe this way in this country and they tend to be geographically concentrated too which means gays literally risk discrimination (abridgement of civil liberties when it comes to marriage) to outright physical harm in certain parts of the land.

I think you have to ask yourself where the so-called heteronormative power structure came from, and I think if you honestly do so you're going to find that religion played a huge role in creating it.

[Evoman]

45. Heternormative structure?

And where exactly did that structure come from? What would make people think that being gay was wrong in the first place? Where did those cultural teachings come from?

After all, many societies did not think being gay was wrong..the early greeks, the japanese, the chinese. What made the middle eastern cultures, and the early American culture, hate gays, if there is not a predisposition to hate gays built into the human genome?

We have to assume that the percentages of gay people were the same in the past....something must have made the gays go "underground" so to speak. Or am I off track here?

[beam me up scottie]

55. Yes, you're off track.

We're supposed to ignore the elephant in the room, remember?

[kiahzero]

57. Not blaming theism doesn't entail ignoring the religious right.

Just because religion, as a category, is neutral on homophobia doesn't mean that we have to ignore the the religious right. The problem is not their theism, the problem is their belief in strict gender roles which they read into their religion. Even if every single member of the religious right were to become abandon their religion, they'd still be homophobes.

Take the Klan for example. They're religious, and they're racist. However, their racism was not dependent on their religion; I feel confident in asserting that their religion was crafted to justify their racist views, rather than the other way around. I feel similarly confident that the same is true for the religious right and their patriarchal notions of sexuality.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Oh brother.

The KKK didn't need to "craft" anything, they can load up on all the intolerance and hatred they could possibly need in convenient one stop shopping.

Just like the homophobes:





Right.

I forgot.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[kiahzero]

59. You obviously don't want to actually discuss the issue.

You'd rather just keep posting pictures that don't actually address what I said and make snide comments. Fine.

[beam me up scottie]

60. What's there to discuss? You refuse to admit religion has anything to do with homophobia.

All that's left is holding up a bible and saying "bible" before throwing it over your head.

My apologies to Lewis Black for stealing his fossil/creationist routine.

[kiahzero]

63. I've said religious rhetoric is used to promote homophobia.

I've said that homophobes read their homophobia into their religion. We've agreed that religion, as a category, isn't inherently homophobic. In my mind, that already neutralizes John's argument.

At first I was going to say that we're disagreeing over causality, but I don't even think that's the case anymore. I'm saying that these people would be homophobic even without their religion, and in fact interpret their religion to support the beliefs they already had (of course, it's not hard since there have been hundreds of years of people with similar views). You said: These people grew up as natural homophobic atheists and converted when they found a religion that supported their intolerance. That would seem to be the same idea as I've been trying to express this whole time - they're homophobes without religion, and then they adopt a religion that supports with that homophobia.

[beam me up scottie]

65. You're wrong.

These people are brought up in church, they're taught to hate in church. They reaffirm their hate in church. They are inspired by the hatred in the bible.

You may be able to ignore thousands of years of persecution based on the hatred found in the bible, but they can't.

And they don't.

[kiahzero]

67. True enough.

I just opposed an indictment of religion in general.

[beam me up scottie]

And on that we agree.

The fundamentalists in the big three that I think Elton was referring to have always used their texts to foster intolerance and worse.

That doesn't mean that their interpretation is right, but the liberal interpretation is much newer and certainly no more valid.

[donco6]

31. Talk about correlation and causation.

Could it not be that many religious people are not homophobic because the particular religion to which they adhere specifically condemns homophobia? And maybe between the coffee bar and the singles night they picked some of that up?

Edited to add:

Not that there are THAT many religious people who are not homophobic. At least, not in my experience.

[kiahzero]

33. I know quite a few.

It's kind of rare to find people around here who aren't Christian (which makes being pagan all sorts of fun sometimes), but a many of them (sadly not a majority yet) are not only not homophobic, but pro gay rights. Being at law school with relatively intelligent people helps increase the population.

[NMMNG]

36. It makes perfect sense with religion

Why do you think the organized effort to ban gay marriage just happened to coincide with the massive increase in power of the Religious Right in America during the past six years? Why do you think that gay marriage/"the homosexual agenda" has been the #1 "moral values" issue for churches across the nation, particularly around election time, during those same years? Why do you think Fred Phelps, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and others like them can't shut up about gays and how evil they are?

It has everything to do with religion.

[NMMNG]

39. Baptists to pass homosexuality policy

GREENSBORO -- Delegates gathering this week at the Baptist State Convention are expected to approve a policy that would prohibit membership for churches or affiliate groups that endorse homosexuality.

The policy, proposed by the convention's board of directors earlier this year, would forbid churches from ordaining gay clergy, making public statements supporting homosexuality or accepting openly gay churchgoers as members.



snip

"We seem to agree on this issue," said the Rev. Stan Welch, president of the 1.2-million-member group, whose 4,080 churches fund the convention's $38 million mission-focused budget. "It's an overwhelming majority time after time. We view it as a biblical precedence of right and wrong."

snip

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=129857

Still think religion plays no part?

[beam me up scottie]

22. Utter BULLSHIT.

What reason do the rabid homophobic religious leaders have for their anti-homosexual diatribes?

What reason do they have to foster intolerance?

What reason do they have to support writing discrimination into law?

The ONLY justification they have (or need, apparently) is the fact that their god disapproves and damns homosexuals and homosexual behaviour.

It's the ONE thing fundamentalist muslims, christians and ultra orthodox jews all agree on.

Making good on a Republican campaign call to celebrate with "Christian friends," Gov. Rick Perry traveled to an evangelical school here Sunday to sign anti-abortion and anti-gay-marriage bills recently passed by the Texas Legislature.

The Rev. Terry Fox, middle, senior pastor of Wichita's Immanuel Baptist Church, gives a thumbs-up to the Kansas House of Representatives after a proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage passed Wednesday at the Statehouse in Topeka. Pat Bullock, left, is with the Heart of Kansas and Phillip "Bo" Graves, right, is senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Haysville. Kansans will vote on the measure on April 5.

BOSTON - Conservative religious and political leaders rallied Sunday in opposition of gay marriage, arguing that their rights to religious expression are being threatened.

The event, being broadcast to churches nationally, is part of a larger effort to energize conservative voters before the Nov. 7 congressional elections.

Gay Marriage or Same Sex Marriage is not marriage at all. It is easiest to explain this by explaining the basis for marriage. Marriage began with the removal of a rib from Adam. God formed Eve from that rib and ever since that day, man has naturally been drawn to his rib, to his Eve and that rib, that Eve, has been drawn back to her man, her Adam. Regardless of what attraction a person may feel toward another person, it is impossible for it to be that same attraction between the sexes that began with the removal of Adam's rib if that attraction is not for a member of the opposite sex. Men who are drawn to the false god of homosexuality must renounce this form of idolatry and turn to the Lord in repentance.

Many groups exist for the purpose of assisting you in leaving the homosexual lifestyle. Some are more effective than others but there is no choice when it comes to sexuality. God demands that men do not lie with men as men lie with women. Men who violate this law invite their own destruction. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for such perversions.

Are you or a loved one experiencing homosexual attractions and looking for answers?

Courage, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church, ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their loved ones. We have been endorsed by the Pontifical Council for the Family and our beloved John Paul II said of this ministry, "COURAGE is doing the work of God!" We also have an outreach called Encourage which ministers to relatives and friends of persons with same-sex attractions.

From our website you will learn about homosexuality and chastity. By developing an interior life of chastity, which is the universal call to all Christians, one can move beyond the confines of the homosexual identity to a more complete one in Christ.

Dwyer Launches Fight Against Gay Marriage

Same-sex marriage will not become legal in Maryland if Delegate Don Dwyer can help it.

Spurred into action by a lawsuit filed in July to legalize homosexual marriage in Maryland, Delegate Dwyer is marshaling Christians across the state to band together and let their voices be heard.

“The Christian community has got to take a stand,” says the Anne Arundel County Republican.

Thursday, at Grace Church in Eden Prairie, the effort to ban gay marriage in Minnesota will become stronger and more coordinated than ever.

More than 300 religious leaders are signed up for a one-day summit sponsored by the Minnesota Family Council.

Pope calls gay marriage part of "ideology of evil"

Top Vatican Cardinal: Gay Marriage is "A Crime Which represents the Destruction of the World"
Gay Adoption "Destroy's the Child's Future" and is "An Act of Moral Violence Against the Child"

Cardinal Trujillo has repeatedly insisted that condoms do not protect against HIV, using fake "facts." Speaking to the BBC, Cardinal Trujillo said, "The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."

When confronted with scientific research showing that intact condoms are an effective barrier against sexually transmitted diseases, Lopez Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that; this is an easily recognizable fact," according to the BBC. The BBC also reports that the Vatican has instructed priests and nuns around the world to spread the lie that condoms cannot prevent HIV transmission.

"Correlation does not imply causation."


Right, religion has nothing to do with it.


Nothing at all.


Talk about being oblivious to the world around you...

[kiahzero]

27. How do you explain all the religious people who aren't bigoted?

I ask again: If you really think that religion is why people are homophobic, why are so many religious people not homophobic? Did they just overcome religion's natural heteronormativity, or are some religion expressions just heteronormative because the people of that religion are heteronormative?

This doesn't even include the religions of cultures that aren't generally heteronormative, sich as those of many Earth-based spiritualities. Native Americans are traditionally quite positive on homosexuality, for instance. Almost all Pagan traditions are equally positive. Interestingly, however, homophobic people tend to read their homophobia into these traditions (The arguments against homosexuality from a Wiccan perspective are interesting for their novelty, even if they are lacking in reason).

An additional question - was religion inherently racist and somehow changed to, by and large, not be? Or did people simply stop reading their own racism into their religion?

Keeping with my perspective that religion is simply a person's story to live by, it would make sense that bigoted people would read their bigotry into their religion. Similarly, a compassionate person who believes in caring for others in their society would similarly read that into their religion.

Edit: Grammar is good.

[beam me up scottie]

28. You must be joking.

How do you explain all of the religious people who believe in evolution?

What, their creationist brothers and sisters already rejected science before they decided to use christianity to justify their ignorance?


"bigoted people would read their bigotry into their religion"

Right, religious dogma and hatred preached from the pulpit has nothing to do with it.

These people grew up as natural homophobic atheists and converted when they found a religion that supported their intolerance.

[kiahzero]

29. Yeah, because those people on the pulpit aren't people.

Or something like that. :eyes:

These people grew up as natural homophobic atheists and converted when they found a religion that supported their intolerance.

It seems like you're agreeing with me - religion doesn't cause homophobia.

Homophobes gravitate towards other homophobes, and interpret their religion accordingly. At worst, some of these homophobes then try and convince others to think similarly - which they would do anyway. And if we got rid of organized religion entirely, they'd still be homophobic, and they'd just start up a new homophobic club.

[beam me up scottie]

30. How disconnected from reality can one get?

Atheists don't believe in sin, remember?

That's your gig.

Try peddling your theory to someone who doesn't live in the bible belt.

These people were brought up thinking that homosexuals are an abomination and they proudly carry on the tradition the same way the snake handlers carry on their tradition of playing with pit vipers to show how much they love Jesus.

[kiahzero]

32. I don't believe in sin either, but that's OK.

Do you think that they would suddenly not be homophobic if organized religion was no more? That they wouldn't just create new clubs?

If organized religion is inherently heteronormative, why are there so many members of the same religions that aren't homophobic? Why are there sects that claim their religion compels them to reject homophobia?

As an aside, I thought you were against people calling for banning religion.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Stop building straw men, I'm not playing.

"Do you think that they would suddenly not be homophobic if organized religion was no more? That they wouldn't just create new clubs?"

What does that have to do with the very real fact that religious leaders BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS actively persecute GLBT people and advocate making discrimination part of the Constitution?



"If organized religion is inherently heteronormative, why are there so many members of the same religions that aren't homophobic? Why are there sects that claim their religion compels them to reject homophobia?"

What a ridiculous question.

Why are all believers not biblical literalists?




"As an aside, I thought you were against people calling for banning religion."

I am against governments acting to ban religion, not against people (especially those who have been persecuted by religion) opining that they'd like to see it banned.

[kiahzero]

35. It has to do with arguing against banning religion.

I'm sorry, I thought that's what we were discussing.

[Random_Australian]

62. Hey! Do you know what? I asked Bmus if the crime rate would go down

if everyone on the planet were to be killed. She said, "yeah, duh, no-one left to commit crimes"

So Bmus obviously wants to kill everyone.

Which is of course proof, like homophobia, religion is not at all going to be used to justify ending the world.

:eyes:

And what's this?
"If organized religion is inherently heteronormative"

Ah yeah, could you show me where Bmus actually said "organised religion is inherently heteronormative" ? Or are you just making up things that the other person is supposed to have said?

And lemme answer your little 'question' for you:

"Do you think that they would suddenly not be homophobic if organized religion was no more?"

People might still find it icky, but they'd have sweet fuck all ground left to stand on. eg. someone wants to ban gay marriage - what kind of argument would they use? "Uh, I don't like it".

And of course, not liking something and being told it is an abomination (presence of religion) is going to have exactly the same effect as not liking something and bieng told (random)*

In other words, you could say that organised religion is bieng used by homophobes to re-enforce homophobia, like you've been saying, but that does not mean organised religion had nothing to do with it. And of course, it does not make you a homophobe if you happen to believe.

*Note: All things bieng equal, it is likely the attitudes toward it would form some kind of bounded normal curve. :)

[rug]

20. Well, Elton's glasses didn't help the cause much either.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. Not my church.

[beam me up scottie]

26. No, I'm sure not.

Not all churches and not all believers are intolerant of homosexuals. I hope nobody would be dumb enough to make that claim.

Unfortunately, even when the tolerant believers do speak out against the homophobes who share their religion, it seems like they're not as powerful as the ones that incite hatred.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. As an Episcopalian, I'm lucky

all the mean folks left when they ordained Gene Robinson. Kind of culled out the chaff. Now they are all having "church" at strip malls while we have inherited the nice buildings and facilities. However, it is a bit costly, keeping it all up. But at least I know when I look to the right and left at me at Church that these are good folks and not all caught up in their own "holiness."

[greyl]

38. "False Religion...Tolerates Immoral Sex: In Western lands,

curch groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though does the Bible teach? It plainly states: "Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men...will inherit God's kingdom." (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?"

This is an excerpt from a piece of trash left on my door last Friday by some trespassing Christians titled "THE END OF FALSE RELIGION IS NEAR!"

So apparently, Elton isn't talking about all religion, only true religion. ;)

[kwassa]

40. Homophobia is cultural, religion is the excuse.

The entire Western world was homophobic up until the past 40 years. The Bible is so complex that one can find a passage to justify any form of behavior, if one picks and chooses their passages carefully. What we are seeing is a shift in culture, not religion, and it is a culture war going on in this country between conservatives and liberals. The conservatives reiterate an older interpretation of the Bible, while liberals interpret it differently.

Religion isn't the cause, but selective religious interpretation is the tool of oppression. The origins are cultural, and go back a long ways.

[greyl]

42. So, the homophobic passages of Holy Books are...

what? A result of the culture the book was written within?
But, the other non-liberal stuff in Holy Books is a result of Divinity, not the culture it was written within?

[greyl]

44. : late edit :

I meant to say liberal, not non-liberal.

[kiahzero]

46. The 'homophobic' passages are mainly poor translations. (n/t)

[greyl]

48. Of course. Can you translate that Corinthians passage for us

properly?

[kiahzero]

51. No, but others can.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm

[greyl]

52. And that supports your point how?

homosexuals, variously described as:

"men who practice homosexuality," (ESV);

"those who participate in homosexuality," (Amplified);

"abusers of themselves with men," (KJV);

"practicing homosexuals," (NAB);

"homosexuals," (NASB, CSB, NKJ, The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English);

"homosexual perversion," (NEB);

"homosexual offenders," (NIV);

"liers with mankind," (Rhiems); and

"homosexual perverts." (TEV)

[kiahzero]

53. You have to keep reading. (n/t)

[greyl]

83. When should I stop?

That site isn't homophobic, it explains how the Bible is, as measured by all of its interpretations.
The conclusion is not to interpret the originally intended meaning out of the Bible, but that it's best to discard much of it as ignorance.

[beam me up scottie]

61. Yes, keep reading, greyl.

There's no bigotry in the bible at all, it's just bad translations.

Tsk, what a tragedy, thousands of years of persecuting homos and other sinners, all because somebody didn't have their Babble fish with them. :crazy:

[kiahzero]

64. It is pretty sad that Christians can't even bother to translate their own holy book right, yes.

I'm sorry, was your post supposed to be sarcastic?

I'm not kidding: if you go back to the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts, you can see that the modern interpretations of many of these "clobber passages" are completely bogus.

Interesting fact: "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" refers to people that poison water supplies, not Wiccans. Now, I don't think poisoning a water supply is worthy of the death penalty (and I'm sure there are plenty of CEOs that thank me for that), but it certainly changes the character of the passage.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Yes, they'll be thrilled to know you've proved them wrong.

Alert the media.

No hatred found in the bible! Faulty Babble Fish to blame! Thousands of years of dogma now irrelevant! Priests having drunken orgies because it said "celebrate" not "celibate"!


I suppose you haven't noticed that you're pretty much on your own here.

Such bullshit is usually found on apologetic websites.

[kiahzero]

68. I don't understand

Yes, most Christians are happy to assume that the English translation of the Bible perfectly encapsulates the meaning of the original text. Ironically, as I understand it, that is one of the theological ideas that lead to Islam - the belief that both Judaism and Christianity had lost the meaning of God's revelation through translation (and, in the case of Christianity, worshiping the messenger).

However, if Christians really believe in the literal truth of the Bible, it would behoove them to actually try and understand it in its original language, rather than a shoddy translation. Why is that "bullshit?"

For the record, the main author at OCRT is Agnostic, and the other primary members are an Atheist, a Wiccan, a non-denominational Christian, and a Zen Buddhist. In my years of reading various essays on the website, my impression is that they are sincere, but YMMV.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Anyone can use religious texts to support their beliefs.

Which is one reason why I don't accept the No True Christian fallacy.

I'm not inclined to believe contemporary liberal interpretors.

Thousands of years of history can't be neutralized by a well meaning group of people.

[kiahzero]

70. I've gone to normative statements, not declarative.

I'm not saying "No True Christian" believes that those passages refer to homosexuality (they quite obviously do), I'm saying that Christians shouldn't believe those passages refer to homosexuality, because analyzing the original text would indicate that they do not.

[beam me up scottie]

74. No, I didn't mean you were using the NTS fallacy.

I just used it to illustrate the difference between fundamentalist and liberal interpretations.

And like I said, their contemporary analysis is no more credible than any other.

Actually it's less so.

[bobbolink]

47. CLERGY CONDEMN CALL TO BAN GAY MARRIAGE

Rocky Mountain News, Sept 25, 2006
by Julie Poppen

Rev. Michael Morran on Sunday used a makeshift pulpit in front of the state Capitol to condemn a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriage.

Standing in front of a sign reading "People of Faith Standing on the Side of Love", with flowers strewn at his feet, Morran joined other clergy in denouncing Amendment 43 on November's ballot.

"I believe homophobia, and not homosexuality, is the sin," said Morran, minister of the First Unitarian Society of Denver. "Marry 'em all; let God sort it out."

Colorado Clergy for Equality in Marriage and The Interfaith Alliance of Colorado, sponsors of the small rally, represent about 125 clergy, organizers said. "Love is a sacred institution, MOrran said. "It falls under the purview of communities of faith, not the government."

Much more of supportive words. Unfortunately, the 4 paragraph rule prohibits typing more of it. It's ALL GOOD.

[greyl]

49. You should say "some clergy" ;)

link?

[bobbolink]

71. why "should" I say some clergy?

I'm not the writer--as I WROTE VERY CLEARLY, it's from the Rocky Mountain news.

I typed from the clipping.

You're free to look it up, that's why I gave the date and the reporter.

[greyl]

82. Because it's not "all" clergy.

I winked. I was referring to post #3.

[beam me up scottie]

56. ROFLMAO!!!

One fucking article?

That's all you've got?

Okay, you win.

That proves religion has nothing to do with homophobia.



Oops, my bad.

I forgot, we've already posted DOZENS of examples showing the opposite is true, both in this thread and the other one.

Religious Beliefs Underpin Opposition to Homosexuality

Opposition to gay marriage has increased since the summer and a narrow majority of Americans also oppose allowing gays and lesbians to enter legal agreements that fall short of marriage. Moreover, despite the overall rise in tolerance toward gays since the 1980s, many Americans remain highly critical of homosexuals and religious belief is a major factor in these attitudes.

A 55% majority believes it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, and that view is much more prevalent among those who have a high level of religious commitment (76%). About half of all Americans have an unfavorable opinion of gay men (50%) and lesbians (48%), but highly religious people are much more likely to hold negative views.

Religiosity is clearly a factor in the recent rise in opposition to gay marriage. Overall, nearly six-in-ten Americans (59%) oppose gay marriage, up from 53% in July. But those with a high level of religious commitment now oppose gay marriage by more than six-to-one (80%-12%), a significant shift since July (71%-21%). The public is somewhat more supportive of legal agreements for gays that provide many of the same benefits of marriage; still, a 51% majority also opposes this step.

A new national survey of 1,515 adults, conducted Oct. 15-19 by the Pew Research Center for The People & The Press and the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life finds that homosexuality in general not merely the contentious issue of gay marriage is a major topic in churches and other houses of worship. In fact, clergy are nearly as likely to address homosexuality from the pulpit as they are to speak out about abortion or prayer in school, say people who attend church regularly.

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=37

I'm tempted to let you enjoy life in Oblivia, but I've got my reputation to worry about.

Being an immoral whackjob atheist is hard work.

[bobbolink]

72. go ahead and shit on it then, and complain that nobody loves you!

Sounds so similar to the RW fundies, crying that they're so persecuted.

I'm done.

Go head, blame everyone and dump shit on everything that's offered to you.

I no longer give a flying fuck.

[beam me up scottie]

73. My, such language!

Don't you know swearing makes the baby Jesus cry?

And just look at what you did to Fluffy:







Besides, Jesus loves me

this I know

because the buy bull tells me so

[Bluebear]

75. LOL! He's a Unitarian! Other religions call HIM a heretic.

Try this one on:

WAUSAU — The bishop of the Diocese of Madison has ordered his priests to play during weekend Masses a recorded homily from him urging the faithful to vote “yes” on a proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

Same-sex marriage will cause the collapse of the family and “society in due time,” Bishop Robert Morlino warns in his homily. “There is no right to redefine marriage.”

The homily is just one of many efforts religious leaders are making to get followers to the polls Tuesday and sway their votes on the amendment.


http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=8887

[beam me up scottie]

76. You're just upset because nobody loves you.

How dare you turn this around and use it to prove your point? :spank:

[Bluebear]

78. Quiet you, or I'll pull back my support of you and your ilk!

Don't shit on me! :crazy:

[beam me up scottie]

79. No! Anything but that!

Who would throw me off the bus?

[NMMNG]

81. Hey, I have an article too!

Baptists to pass homosexuality policy

GREENSBORO -- Delegates gathering this week at the Baptist State Convention are expected to approve a policy that would prohibit membership for churches or affiliate groups that endorse homosexuality.

The policy, proposed by the convention's board of directors earlier this year, would forbid churches from ordaining gay clergy, making public statements supporting homosexuality or accepting openly gay churchgoers as members.



snip

"We seem to agree on this issue," said the Rev. Stan Welch, president of the 1.2-million-member group, whose 4,080 churches fund the convention's $38 million mission-focused budget. "It's an overwhelming majority time after time. We view it as a biblical precedence of right and wrong."

snip
http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=129857

[TheJollyNihilist]

80. Organized Religion is a waste of time, but...

...arguing it should be "banned" is a little crazy I think. That's authoritarianism gone berserk.

[and-justice-for-all]

84. Anything Non-conformist is Hated by the Church. nt