A message to my atheist friends.

[Danger Mouse]

I've given this a great deal of thought. At times, my reaction to the atheists on DU has ranged from irrational outrage and annoyance to acceptance and understanding. The outrage and annoyance are generally products of my being religious in the first place. Religion is a very emotional topic, and anger is the most common reaction when one's beliefs are challenged. Also, despite what the fundies claim, it's pretty easy to be a religious person in this country. You're insulated from having your faith questioned, because faith is so widely accepted, even expected.
I'm not an atheist, so I can't speak for them, but...it seems like it'd be hard to be an atheist in this country. I am constantly hearing right-wingers complaining about atheists being one of the major causes of the problems that exist in our society. The atheist is the bane of the self-righteous, who loathe people of different faith and despise people with no faith at all.
How many times have you been told you'd go to hell? How many times have you been mocked, insulted, pushed around? How many times has someone belittled you, tried to force their beliefs down your throat, and tried to persuade you that you needed to be saved? How many times have you felt that you were a minority in a sea of the religious multitudes?
I have seen that DU is a place where atheists can gather and share their opinions one another in a largely accepting environment. However, there are always religious folk, myself included, scouring the posts for the slightest hint of an offensive comment, and ready to jump all over the poster in droves. It doesn't matter whether the post was insulting or not, all that counts is perception. In all honesty, I've read very few postings on this forum that I'd consider to be genuine insults. Only one comes to mind at the moment. I DISAGREE with much of what I have read, but it does not constitute an attack on me personally, or my beliefs.
It merely constitutes a disagreement. Yet, here I was, coming out, guns blazing, ready to furiously shout down each and every perceived attack....how foolish I was!
Even here, on DU, where acceptance and tolerance are supposed to be the norms...atheists are still a minority, and are still mistreated. The possibility for discourse is hurt by the lack of trust between many of those who have faith and those who do not. Yet, it is those of us who have faith who constantly claim to be persecuted. We claim that the atheists are trying to take away Christmas, school prayer, and the ten commandments. We claim that the atheists are trying to secularize the country. We claim that atheists are pushing a gay agenda. We claim that God is not with us because of the atheists.
We wail, we tear our clothes, we gnash our teeth. We gather in our multi million dollar megachurches, we hear political screeds from insincere men stoking our fears, manipulating our desires. We fund them with our money, our sweat, our blood. We give them their vast political power, and they create our nightmares of hell and torment and evil atheists conspiring to unravel all that we hold dear.
America is in their grip, and despite our glorious victory on November 7th...they are not going away. Their power is lessened, but not obliterated. And while they hold so much power over the hearts and minds of people, and while people continute to remain willfully, stubbornly ignorant...the atheist will continue to be scorned for no reason other than that they chose not to believe.
The point of all this rambling is that I just wanted to express my support for all of you. I don't know your stories, or what caused you to choose not to believe, but I am interested in hearing them. If you decide to reply to this posting, why not tell me about it? I'm not interested in converting you, that's not my style...but I am interested in hearing what you have to say. I hope that this posting has been a respectful one, to my fellow faithful as well as to the atheists...and I hope that you have enjoyed reading it. This is my first attempt at posting anything on DU, so go easy on me :)

[Mythsaje]

1. For a first post, this is a hum-dinger...

I'm not an atheist, but in some ways I have more in common with one than with religious folk, particularly Fundies.

Great post and worth a rec and a kick.

[mike_c]

2. nice post....

I will say that it is very easy to be an atheist-- in fact, my views are pretty much the opposite of yours on that topic. I think it must be hard to NOT be an atheist. It would certainly be hard for me to not be an atheist-- pretty much impossible, I think.

[Danger Mouse]

4. Well...

that's not quite what I meant =)
I meant that it must be difficult to be an atheist in the sense that us religious people are such a pain in the ass when it comes to atheists!
Since you arrived at the conclusion that being an atheist was the only logical choice for you (otherwise, why would you be an atheist?), it's safe to assume that you are comfortable with that.
Therefore, it is not necessarily difficult to 'BE' an atheist...but to exist as one, maybe not as easy? Like I said in my post, I'm not one, so I can't relate as thoroughly as I'd like to be able to :)

[LynzM]

3. Thank you

This is a fantastic post. You hit on a lot of good points. I'm not in a place right now to write out my story, but I will share a short story.

We were discussion gay marriage on another board I'm on. There's a girl on there who's Catholic and believes gay marriage is wrong. She feels like it would be something she doesn't want her kids to be exposed to. Yet at the same time, she claims that it's unfair that they won't let the kids post the 10 commandments in school. There are times I felt like saying, during that discussion, "What if I don't want my kid exposed to the belief that nothing you do is wrong as long as you ask for forgiveness from the imaginary creature up in the sky?" I know, that's way harsh and I'm not mean enough to post it, but you're right that we are constantly exposed to something we don't believe in, and forced to try to explain it to our children.

Thanks for the great post. I may come back and share my story when I feel more coherant. :hi:

[Danger Mouse]

5. Thanks for sharing,

and I'd love to hear your story at some point! As for the Catholic lady, what is she so afraid of? I guess 'being exposed' to gays instantly turns your children gay! Uh oh! I like your response, though, and I don't find it mean. It's a very good point that many religious people lose sight of the fact that wrong is still wrong, no matter how they justify it! If I shot someone in the face, and asked for forgiveness from God, I still shot someone in the damn face! But anyway, thanks again!

[eallen]

6. Thank you!

That was a quite kind post.

Since you say you are curious, I will try to answer one question you ask: "I don't know your stories, or what caused you to choose not to believe." The answer is very simple. When it comes to factual matters, I don't know how one chooses to believe. My choice simply has no effect on factual issues outside myself. I could no more choose to believe that some religion is true, than I could choose to believe that Anastasia Romanova survived the Russian Revolution. Or, to use Bertrand Russell's famous example, that a teapot orbits the earth. I hope that helps.

[Danger Mouse]

8. It does.

Thank you =)
I happen to like this answer as well, but that's just me.

[lostnotforgotten]

7. Hi Hubbard, As One That Wavers Between Agnosticism and Atheism

Let me add a few comments;

1) I could care less if anyone wants to celebrate a special holy day (Christmas).

Just don't expect me to partake in those activities and don't belittle me for not seeing things your way.

2) I could care less if anyone wants to seek solace in a structure called a church once a week.

Just don't bring those beliefs back into the public discourse and then belittle me for pointing out that not everyone sees things your way.

So you see, I am not against anyone's faith, just don't impose your faith on me or on the important collective decisions that a multicultural society must make.

[Danger Mouse]

11. OK!

Well stated, thank you for your response =) Well, I hope you've come to realize, I have no interest on imposing my faith on anyone, or forcing our government to make decisions based solely on my faith, either!

[lostnotforgotten]

12. Hi Hubbard - I Never Had The Impression That You Did

I am just stating succinctly that I could never have an objection to anyone's faith as long as that faith stays with you and is not imposed on me.

[JonDirt]

9. I remember

An interview i read couple years back with bush 41 and he said atheists should not be american citizens. Thats about the only time i felt offended about anti-atheist rhetoric. I served in Iraq I fought for my country. well so did 41, but he has no right pres (at the time)or not.

[wryter2000]

114. Welcome to DU

:hi:

Thanks for your service. I hope you're home to stay.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. excellent first post!

You'll fit in just fine here. :)

I'm Agnostic. There might be, there might not be a 'God'. :shrug:

I certainly haven't seen anything that leads me to believe there is.

[JonDirt]

13. Can All atheists remember when they stopped believing?

I remember cause i was 11 and realized it didn't make sense i look back at myself than and say, wow.

[Danger Mouse]

15. Around that time...

I stopped believing as well...mostly because I was severely bitter and depressed. Then when I was at rock bottom, I got involved in Young Life, and started to believe again. They did a lot for me in a very difficult time.
Thanks for your response =)

[valerief]

31. I was around that age. It had been festering since I was 8. It was

all crazy talk to me. I was raised Catholic, so it was creepier than most religions.

[CrispyQ]

106. I was 9.

A turning moment for me was when I was about 9 in a Sunday school class. The teacher was telling us that you could reconcile the big bang theory with god because where did that inrush of hydrogen come from? "God!" she explained. I casually asked "Where did god come from?" & was promptly taken upstairs to the minister’s office where he gave me a lecture on faith. That was my last Sunday school class.

[Danger Mouse]

120. This story...

saddens me. Even in supposedly enlightened times, the question of a curious child is quickly suppressed. I'm a Sunday School teacher myself, and honestly, you have to be ready to answer a question like that. Just running to the minister and killing that spark of curiosity with a lecture is criminal.
There is a lot about religion that is purely unanswerable. To hide behind 'because God says so,' is just plain cowardly and immature.

[CrispyQ]

128. How would you have answered the question? --nt

[Danger Mouse]

130. I would say...

'I honestly don't know. I think that most believe that God has always been. But, I wonder that too sometimes. Where DID God come from? What do you think?'
I would want to hear what they have to say. I would not have a satisfactory answer to that question, but I would do my best to say what some people think, and encourage the child to offer their own thoughts or feelings.
Honestly, I'm just delighted when one of my kids contributes a thought or a concern. I couldn't imagine stifling a contribution like that.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. Raised atheist/agnostic, never an issue.

I was always curious about my believer friends though, and religion in general, but I never got the bearded old man in the sky myth.

[Danger Mouse]

119. Yeah, I'd say...

that's an interesting perspective.

[Zhade]

182. I never believed. Couldn't, no matter how hard I tried to deceive myself.

My brain simply doesn't believe in things for which there is no evidence.

[riderinthestorm]

14. I haven't posted in the R/T forum for a long while

so I'm taking it as serendipitous that while I was thumbing through the latest threads section, yours was at the top. I've avoided R/T like the plague and won't go back to check on any responses to my post but I will give you an answer since you (appear to want to) seem to want to listen.

I grew up in or near Wheaton, IL. I attended Wheaton Bible Church for many, many years and was a fundy through and through. I have read through the Bible more times than I can remember (make it at least 10 times and at one point in my life by age 18 I could quote you the entire New Testament by heart. Needless to say I was the Awana star student). I attended Wednesday pm, Sunday am, Sunday pm services plus daily devotionals, prayer meetings and bible study groups. The first question out of EVERYONE's mouth here in my part of town is "What church do you go to?" This defines who you are and what you believe.

I can't say for certain what led me to begin questioning but most certainly it began with utter honesty: I NEVER heard the Holy Spirit, Jesus, God or any other entity whispering in my heart or speaking to me in any way shape or form. There just isn't any pretending otherwise. I spent too many years vainly waiting for "answers" that never came and the day I dropped the delusion that I "heard" anything was a red letter day for me. So I went on a quest: Buddhism, meditation, Unity, Native American drumming, aura classes - you name it, I'd try it. After another decade (wasted) searching, it finally occurred to me - it's all a big myth.

I will tell you, bar none, the day that I gave up on God was the most freeing, empowering day of my life. I shed religiosity, spirituality and the search for God and finally found internal peace.

That doesn't mean I have found peace externally however. I have been hounded by Christians every single stinking day of my life ever since here in Wheaton Il. I deeply resent beeing testified too, witnessed at, my kids' dragged to Awana without my consent, or my kids' being told that they are going to hell for having an atheist parent, withstanding daily lectures on the virtues of such-and-such a church, and/or just the general horror of a face to face contact with (gasp!) an atheist. I am now much less tolerant when I stumble upon a local fundraising car wash in the HS parking lot that I thought was being given by the local HS band but instead is sponsored by Campus Christians who want to proselytize. If they won't back off, they are told in no uncertain terms that in my opinion they believe in myths akin to Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. I now have no problem believing that most Christians are as brainwashed as those who believe in Bush - it's a fucking cult. In my part of the world it's a mandatory part of evangelical/charismatic christian church dogma to witness to a non-believer when you find them. I know I was one of them and would plough through my spiel when I could.

At the minumum, evangelicals/charismatics make it known that you are going to hell. That's not their opinion, "sorrowfully" enough - it's just God's word. Arrrgh!!! Even here on DU imho there isn't a whole lot of respect for atheists and what they go through/believe and how it can be very provoking.

Most Americans believe that I am to be less trusted than Hitler! It's beyond bizarre and into the land of Oz.

I appreciate your efforts but please know that the US in this day and age is so twisted religiously that some atheists like me are alienated to the point that even your effort to reach out can't bridge the gap. I will also stipulate that I am in a wierd location in the US and after many decades spent in Wheaton, I am reflexively hostile about religion. It's one of the many reasons I stopped posting on the R/T boards - I can't be polite anymore. I wish they would just leave me and mine and everyone else the fuck alone and keep religion out of public life altogether. I like to keep my equilibrium and flamewars are so unproductive! There's happiness elsewhere!

Welcome to DU and good luck on your quest to find true discussion. The R/T boards aren't the best place to test the waters with posting (imho). It's a very stubborn forum without a lot of open minds (I freely admit, I am one of them). Even GD is a better place if you really want some give and take.

Peace!

[Erika]

17. People created a God so they wouldn't die

That simple. They can't relate to no longer existing. They are way too narcissist for that. So they invent a mechanism that will allow them to live forever. On top of that, they develop a mechanism (Christ died so we may have eternal life)to erase their sins.

Talk about a lack of accountability. I was also raised religious. At times, I would love to believe religion isn't BS, but then reality comes into play.

Give me an atheist who believes he/she has only one chance to make life better for everyone anyday.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

93. Very wise... nt

[Danger Mouse]

18. This was an AWESOME reply...

Thanks so much for sharing this!

[Mythsaje]

29. Yeah, but if you post on THIS topic in GD

some mod quickly shifts it over here anyway. So you might as well post it here to begin with...

[comradebillyboy]

16. For all of us atheists, check out

Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

As an atheist, I would never vote for or in any way support Harold Ford whose religiosity I find totally offensive. I don't know why progressives hold him in such high regard. I feel the same way about Joe Lieberman.

[Erika]

19. The right wing theocrats of the GOP should be our first target

Such as those who won't allow birth control for women in the third world. Ford's impact is minimal.

[EvilAL]

20. I don't

believe in any religion. God spoke to all these different prophets and told them all different stuff? Doesn't make sense to me.
I can't tell you if there is a God or not, maybe there is, heaven would be kickass. Hell on the other hand. I can understand how it's been grained into peoples brains over the centuries to the point that it's just a way of life. Most people I know believe in God and Christmas and Easter. 90% of them only go to church for weddings and funerals. I don't believe those things actually happened. Could have been a guy named Jesus, but I don't see him coming back from the dead. That's one side of the story. The story I was told to believe in.
Had nothing to do with conforming or anything like that, trying to rebel or anything, just I realized it didn't make any sense, no proof other than a book that has been mistranslated a few times. I have pissed off my mother and others by not wanting my kids baptised. I was told a few times not to be so selfish, let them decide on their own what they believe when they are older. I just said well, who's deciding for them now? In the end they were baptized as I was the only one that opposed it, and that's the way it goes. Didn't really matter to me and I figured that by arguing with everyone about it I was just trying to push my shit on them because they'd always ask me "why this, why that.." and I'd have to answer them and try to explain the same things over and over. I don't get any shit over it though, nobody talks about it with me or anything. We had Jehovah's come over about a month ago and their talking point was the Iraq War. I told them quick at the door that it didn't effect me and they went into God's this and that right away. I told them, I don't believe any of that. They said things about the prophets and I mentioned Nostradamus and they said "Well who do you think gave him that power?" I said "No one, I don't believe that crap either." My girlfriend was doing the dishes and dropped a plate. hahah She believes in it but doesn't bug me, but knows I'll bring stuff up like that on a whim sometimes and freak everyone out.
All in all, around here it doesn't matter if I'm athiest, or agnostic or satanist. No one really goes to church, but they all believe it.

[Erika]

21. They can't face the fact when they die they are dead

All religions from Islam to Christianity claim this crutch.

[Danger Mouse]

35. I think it's more than just that.

I also think that man wanted to feel that he wasn't alone in the universe, and that his life had meaning.

[valerief]

49. I think it started as a way to explain stuff (science stuff) they couldn't

explain. Con men exploited it, and the rest is history.

[blue sky at night]

22. Nice Post....

as a person who has no doubts about our source, I too feel anger when an Atheist condemns. I am not going to go there however, because to forgive him or her helps me more than them. I don't seek anyones approval, and I don't want to judge, so I do not judge them, and try not to attack anyone. Funny, I saw a post on Huffington yesterday where so called liberals were bashing right wing christians...and that is not what I call liberal thinking, it's hypocritical. We should all chose our words carefully, and make sure we don't condemn someone else for what we ourselves are doing.

[Erika]

24. You just attacked

When has any athiest condemned Christians?

[blue sky at night]

26. I wont go there with you....

I guess you misread the part about my forgiving anyone who condemns another religion, I never said Christians either. peace out.

[Erika]

38. You used the condemn word first

In what context? Can you explain any atheists who condemned Christians? Just explain.

[wryter2000]

115. Not condemn

But I see "opiate of the masses" and "imaginary friend" posts all the time. They're extremely insulting. Just as I don't want religious people imposing their views on me, I don't want to impose my lack of faith on anyone else.

[Danger Mouse]

117. Thanks for saying this.

=) It bothers me as well.

[Dorian Gray]

156. Actually, I don't see a lot of condemnation.

But, there is a lot of belittling, which rubs me the wrong way. Oh, and the other poster spoke of all religions, not just Christians. I suspect that most atheists would find Hinduism or Paganism or Baha'i-ism as silly as they consider Christianity. Using particular language will offend some people.

[wickerwoman]

23. Thanks for your great post!

Why did I become an atheist?

I guess I've just never been very good at taking "Because I said so" as an answer. I like to ask questions and I was raised in an environment where that was encouraged rather than stifled. And so many of the answers offered by organized religion seem, to me anyway, to be facile and self-serving... like a kid caught in a lie who keeps spinning out more and more absurd lies to cover the original one. Why isn't it enough to say Jesus was a great thinker who had some good ideas? Why do we need to make him the son of God and born of a virgin who was immaculately conceived and whose body turns into biscuits and grape juice but only if you listen to some guy and give 10% of your salary and act now or you'll end up burning in eternal fire? It just seems like a racket to me.

And I've just never encountered a situation where I felt a need for faith in anything. I don't think I've been inordinately sheltered, but even in the toughest times, I've just never needed to believe in anything beyond my own experience. In fact, I find religious comfort in those times to be intrusive and patronizing.

What I find frustrating about religious threads is that I seem to offend Christians simply because I exist. The kind of thing that gets labelled "Christian bashing" on DU often seems so ridiculous. It's as ridiculous as calling something "ridiculous". By the very nature of who I am, I don't believe in God. So to me, I'm sorry, the Bible is fiction. But post that on DU and suddenly I'm being grossly disrespectful. Post that the Bible is mythical or a legend (nevermind that the story of Jesus' origins are largely cribbed from older myths and legends) and suddenly you're hateful and a bully, blah, blah, blah.

But anyway, I'm genuinely sorry if I've offended anyone's faith by not believing in it, but I found the OP so refreshing, and it's such a relief to find that we do have many opinions in common despite it all.

Peace.

[Erika]

25. Great post!

Atheists believe they have only their own conscience to hold them accountable and only one life time to do so.

It is a far cry from the religious spectrum who says they are so important they cannot die and God will forgive their sins. A big contrast.

[Danger Mouse]

37. You're right.

Your very existence offends many Christians. Just like the very existence of homosexuals offends many Christians. They cannot accept that which challenges their perceptions, that makes them think for themselves.

[Mythsaje]

27. My philosophy, in a nutshell

http://www.sajewilliams.com/philosophy.htm

[valerief]

28. There are more closeted atheists than closeted gay people.

Atheists can't let healthcare workers know they're atheists. Christian anger can be very scary. Of course, most Christians aren't like that, but too many are, so you have to play it safe.

[Mythsaje]

30. Atheists can't let healthcare workers know they're atheists?

Seriously?

When they ask me, I always say "other." :shrug: It saves a lot of explanation. And confusion on their part.

[valerief]

36. When they start talking about The Lord, I just smile and pretend

I agree with them, as they draw blood from my arm or have me in the stirrups or write out a prescription. I don't want their potential wrath against atheists to affect my healthcare. I can't tell right away which ones are the nutty ones and which ones are the nice ones.

[Mythsaje]

40. I have NEVER had a healthcare worker bring up

religion with me...

Not ONCE.

[Danger Mouse]

41. ...but that doesn't necessarily apply...

To others posting here. I'm sure many have been subjected to it.

[Mythsaje]

47. Where in the hell do you LIVE?

That's what I'm wondering.

I'm not saying that it hasn't happened to folks here, I'm just wondering where "Batshit Crazy Medical Center" happens to be located.

[valerief]

51. I used to live in Kentucky, Jesus Central. nt

[Mythsaje]

57. Well, there's your problem right there...

My ex--who despises everything Christian like no one else I've ever met--(and believe me, she has reason) lived in Kentucky for some years. She used to say Cumberland Gap and the falls were beautiful, but they could have the rest of the state.

If I'm ever in the South and happen to be injured or seriously ill, I'm gonna make them ship me HOME. Where there are SANE people running the hospitals.

[valerief]

62. They're infiltrating everywhere and growing with the faith-based

intiative buckos. Have a business, say Jesus, and get a money waterfall from Daddy Bush.

[Danger Mouse]

64. Like I said...they have too much power.

Far, far too much power.

[valerief]

70. Definitely. I don't care who's religious. I just want a real separation

of church and state. Once one religion "wins" in govt, everyone else loses.

[Mythsaje]

82. 90% of my friends are pagan...

Believe me, they don't get treated any better than atheists. My wife is one of those who DEMANDS respect, and gets it. Everyone knows she's a witch, even at work. And NO ONE cares.

[Danger Mouse]

170. Yeah...

The Constitution forbids the establishment of an official state religion. Not like the fundies care about that.

[valerief]

44. Lucky you. nt

[Erika]

42. LMAO A true posts about how the religious feel

about atheists. "Just be quiet, and they might not hang you".

[Danger Mouse]

46. I hope...

You've seen that I don't feel that way.

[Random_Australian]

165. Don't worry - everyone knows damn well your quite one of the nice guys.

But really, it never takes the entire majority of people to make life miserable.

Like the guy two posts up said - hard to tell off the bat whether someone's a normal or a loon (the other type of normal in some places in America by all accounts)

But no worries, I for one vouch that like many other posters here, while you get heated you are quite ok a person. :)

[EvilAL]

48. huh

I've been to the hospital many many times and never heard one thing about God or Jesus.

[Erika]

55. Our two hospitals are Episcopalian and Catholic

Both pushing religion.

[Mythsaje]

59. Even our Catholic Hospitals here don't do that...

My doctor is associated with St. Joe's Hospital. Never heard a religious word from anyone there, from the nurses to the physical therapists.

[Erika]

66. That's NOT how it is here anymore

At all. It changed with W's funds to religious organizations. It hadn't happened before.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

176. Yes, I was in a Catholic hospital for surgery in the 1960s, and

other than the fact that some of the nurses were nuns, no one mentioned religion to me. The nurse-nuns just came in and took my temperature and blood pressure and made small talk about the bright sunshine outside, just like regular nurses.

[skyblue]

196. Hope they respect your LIVING WILL!!!!

[Zhade]

183. But that's not really honest, I couldn't say that.

Atheism not being a religion whatsoever, I wouldn't feel okay saying that.

I think most doctors, unless fundamentalists, really do believe in 'do no harm', regardless of their patients' religious beliefs (or, in my case, lack of them).

[Erika]

34. True. Atheists feel they must be closeted

To "come out" means they subjct themselves to litmus tests held by both parties they will certainly fail. How sad. So much for a country that was supposed to be secular in its applications of the law.

[valerief]

39. Amen! (See how well I've learned to hide it?) nt

[Dorian Gray]

157. Why can't they tell healthcare workers that they're atheists?

I don't understand? I doubt that my doctor or nurse would give a crap what religion I am. As a matter of fact, it's never even come up. I would imagine that there are a number of NYC (where I live) who aren't particularly religious or give much thought to it.

[jgraz]

164. To a fundie, atheists are far more dangerous than homosexuals

In their twisted world, the gays will only molest their children. The atheists could say something to their children that will damn them to hell for all eternity.

[Danger Mouse]

172. Damn straight (har har)...

Fundies despise atheists. With a burning passion. A fundie wet dream is a hell packed with roasting muslims, gays, and atheists with a smattering of their least favorite liberals.
Even my reasonably liberal mother was complaining the other day about how 'the atheists' don't want prayer in schools.
I told her that I don't want prayer in school either!
If a kid wants to pray in school on their own time, then that's their choice. I've had conversations about God with some of the kids I work with before...only if they bring it up, because preaching isn't my style. Considering the shitty lives a lot of these kids have, the concept of a loving God is often very comforting to them.
However, religion is only an escape from the reality of the harsh world in which they live.
It can't take the place of the therapy they desparately need. In your face, L. Ron Hubbard!

[NMMNG]

190. Even some non-fundies feel that way

A friend of mine believes that a major reason kids these days are so horrible is because "atheist f*cks" like me got prayer taken out of schools ("They don't have the fear of God to keep them in line any more".) :eyes:

[Danger Mouse]

197. Yeah, sadly...

Ignorance will do a lot for ya. If you don't know anything about someone, it's easy to fear/hate them. Ya know?

[NMMNG]

199. Indeed

If you either don't know anything about them or if you've been filled with lies and stereotypes about them. :-(

[Kindigger]

32. My story

I've told this story many times, and it never fails to evoke a gasp of disbelief. I've had debilitating chronic pain for over 15 years. In February 2004 I made a last ditch effort to convince someone I was not in pain due to depression. I presented at the rheumatology clinic of a supposed top ten teaching hospital, where I was seen by the head of the department, who was also a professor at the college.
After telling him my symptoms etc. he asked, "Do you believe in Jesus?" After sitting with my mouth hanging open for several seconds I stuttered, "I believe such a person existed, and has had a major impact on the world." He clarified the question. "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior?" I replied that I didn't believe in such things, although I respect his impact; just as I respect Ghandi, Martin Luther King, the Buddha, Dali Lama etc.
He told me, "Until you accept Jesus as your savior, you'll never get any better." He dismissed me, and I left in tears. Two weeks later my neck finally collapsed, resulting in a three level fusion. My right hand is partially paralyzed due to the nerves being pinched in my neck for many years.
After surgery at another hospital, I went back to the patient representative, and told her the story. She looked at me like "and your problem is?" I obtained a copy of the visit report, and found I was diagnosed with "a hole in my soul".
I talked to several attorneys on the phone, but was told I had no case that was worth their time, as most of my other treatment was outside the statute of limitations. This was right after all *'s lawsuit reform.
I had noted when I'd visited their orthopedic and psychiatric clinics that the last question on the intake form was "are you a spiritual person?" I always answered yes, because I believe the Earth is sacred. Church isn't found in a manmade building, but in all living creatures.
We were Baptist, and my parents literally dragged five of us to church every Wednesday night, and Sunday morning for 12 years. My dad went everywhere with a Bible under his arm. I remember my grandpa's tall, lanky frame, dressed in a black suit, with a pin on the lapel that dangled past his knee; one hinged attachment for each year he'd attended the church. I remember three small girls painfully sleeping on sticky pink rollers every Saturday night. I remember our tear soaked faces as my mom hurriedly yanked them out of our hair the next morning. I wondered why we didn't have to be pretty the rest of the week. I wondered why memorizing the books of the Bible was more important than a report card.
I remember the Sunday morning when I finally said, "No, I'm not going anymore." After that day, nobody went again, not even my dad.
At school I learned the word "hypocrite", and was angry for a long time. I lost trust in anything my parents told me. Later in college, I minored in religion trying to understand what had happened to me.

[Danger Mouse]

33. Whoa.

Holy shit. Seriously. What the fuck is wrong with people?? Thanks so much for sharing your story with me!! I hope you have been doing alright considering all you went through.

[Kindigger]

50. Sometimes

its hard, and I AM depressed. I look at pictures of my grandbabies to know why I'm still here. I died of anoxic shock in 1998 (and came back to tell the tale :) I'm not afraid to die. It would be real easy if it weren't for those grandbabies.

[valerief]

43. Wow. Scary stuff. Get well. nt

[Mythsaje]

45. Holy crap (pun intended)...

Where in the HELL did you go to seek medical attention?

I can't IMAGINE a doctor here spouting that kind of crap. "A hole in your soul?" Seriously? That's just insane. I mean certifiable.

[valerief]

54. This is what America is like now. Gotta walk on eggshells. nt

[Mythsaje]

67. Not here, thankfully...

Even the religious hospitals walk on eggshells w/regards to that sort of thing.

[Kindigger]

61. Hospital

University of Iowa Hospital and Clinics, Iowa City, Iowa. I believe the county its located in is the bluest county in the state. Very diverse, progressive city. Strange huh?

[Erika]

52. Your post only touches the tip of the iceberg

as to why many of our eyes were opened and we are now atheists. Thanks for the post.

[Danger Mouse]

53. But...

What about you?

[Erika]

58. Huh? What about me? n/t

[Danger Mouse]

60. I wanted to hear...

your story, if you have one to tell =)

[Erika]

63. Will it suffice that my bro is a Mormon bishop and we have

Catholics in the family also? I'm always amused at family deaths. The Catholic priests cant and shake over the caskets and the Mormons slip on a shower cap.

[Danger Mouse]

65. Wow.

That suffices =) Half of my family is Catholic. Let's just...not go there. I have fond memories of my sister beating the shit out of one of my nephews screaming 'You son of a bitch!' at her son, apparently not realizing what she was saying.

[Mythsaje]

68. We went to my wife's grandmother's funeral

last spring...Against her wishes, her SON, who's some kind of bigwig in the Mormon Church, did a whole religious service and offended every single OTHER member of the family, from my agnostic Mother-In-Law to my pagan wife.

The last thing anyone in the family except him wanted was some religious service.

It was just weird.

[Erika]

69. Mormons like the God Plan Death Plan

They believe they will die and become Gods of their own planets. That is, the men. Women will only be called up to heaven if their husband so wishes it. It's his call. One heck of a way for Mormon men to keep their wives subservient and one reason why I could never vote for Romney.

[valerief]

71. Yeah, the pink underwear part doesn't really bother me. It's that

sci-fi and paternal stuff that weirds me out.

[Erika]

72. You mean baptism of the dead?

The Jews get mad at them every year for it. Amusing.

[valerief]

73. Ee-yew, I didn't even know about that. I gotta read up on these

Mormons. I think my understanding of them is limited to the South Park episode that explained Mormonism.

I did spend 3 weeks in Salt Lake City a few years ago on business, and a non-Mormon resident there told me her parents were social workers. They told her SLC had the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the country (this was late 90s) and that tons of Mormon women were tranquilized to the hilt. I also recall seeing lots of homeless people there. It reminded me of decades ago, when I'd see lots more homeless people living in the streets. I used to have to step over the winos when I walked to high school (really).

[Erika]

74. Salt Lake City suffers from an repressed society

The personal ads in their newspapers tells the story. Woman helper needed, etc. Yes, Mormon women are high (no pun intended) on the tranquilizer list. No birth control. Five kids in seven years (a personal case I know of) harms the female terribly. She suffers the brunt and he goes to Church proud of his machoism.

[valerief]

75. When I was there, my coworkers and I had to be shuttled all

over the city, because we had to leave our office building. Nearby some looney tune dude was shooting up a Mormon library. I don't recall if it was about religion or his girlfriend or both.

But, on a lighter note, the mountains are gorgeous.

[Danger Mouse]

78. I knew a mormon once...

Ran a channel on IRC. Thoroughly creepy and sexist. I guess their religion is even kookier than I thought. Ugh.

[Mythsaje]

80. It's a cult...

My wife's a "jack" Mormon. Baptised in the Tabernacle and everything. Turned her back and RAN (not walked) away. They didn't like letting her go. It took her ten years to get them to stop harassing her.

She's a full-blown witch these days. Totally non-Christian.

My family was all Mormon, but that was over by the time I came around. I don't think I ever heard the words "Jesus" or "God" in even my grandparents' house, except maybe as a part of a blasphemous outburst. Of course, the dice game most people know as "10,000" around here, my grandma and aunt used to call "Oh, Shit."

I grew up in a perfect family for a free-thinker. I got to explore all about religion growing up, attending whatever church I chose--visiting with whatever friend any given weekend.

I think I was 19 when I came to the conclusion that NO ONE knows anything more about God than anyone else. It's all conjecture, and the bible is guesswork put in writing. Didn't stop me from continuing my exploration, though it took me down different paths from there. Studied Buddhism, Paganism, Taoism, and came all the way back to "fuck if I know."

I'm not an atheist, nor do I consider myself agnostic. I DO believe in something greater than myself. I'm just not sure it has a "self" as we'd understand it.

http://www.sajewilliams.com/philosophy.htm

[Danger Mouse]

92. Thank you for this!

I obviously don't know very much about the Mormons, though they HAVE always seemed rather kooky to me. Like, really. I did study Scientology quite a bit, and found it to be an evil enterprise that sucks people dry of their money, and uses stupid celebrities (like Tom Cruise) to promote their empty agenda and pop psychology.

[neebob]

159. I was raised Mormon

but blew it off as soon as I was on my own, 1980ish. My mother still talks to me as if she doesn't know that. I've just been complaining about it in the atheists' group.

Here's my story, copied from an old post in that group:

I didn't become an atheist as much as I slowly realized I was one. I stopped believing in the man-god some time in my very early twenties. Until my late thirties, I clung to a desire to believe in something resembling a soul that was separate from the body and continued after death and a higher power or benevolent force that watched over me, keeping me out of the shit I tried to create for myself or at least causing it to work out.

Then, thanks to a similar kind of magical thinking, I got conned and stuck for two years in an abusive relationship. It was so awful and such a huge financial setback - in fact I was nearly ruined and am still paying for it, six years after it ended - that it took a few years to think through it. Just accepting that it had happened took a few months. Then I spent a couple of years obsessing about the guy and what was wrong with him and, more importantly, noticing how full of people just like him the world is.

Now it's just this random stupid thing that happened to me, because of magical thinking. It made me very skeptical, gave me a kind of common sense I didn't have before, and even shaped my politics. I'm much more of a flaming pinko liberal than I might have been had I not met this one sociopathic asshole.

I should add that I see no difference between him and GWB and his pals, no difference between what happened to me and what's happened to the country. No difference at all.

My dad died in April 2003, just as I was beginning to recognize his hand in my relationship history. Then I got into it with my mom and blamed her, too, for a while. Then I read Under the Banner of Heaven and realized the Mormon church is a cult and Joseph Smith was a common con man, not unlike the one who got me. That was a new way to think about it, beyond just not believing it. So the parents who had said I was gullible had not only fallen for a huge scam but taught me to be gullible, by modeling acceptance of that whole belief system. That, I think, is when I realized I'm an atheist and finally let go of the higher power/benevolent force idea.

So my path to atheism is a little different than most. It's hard for me to say what brought it on or when, because I always had doubts - even as a child.

[Danger Mouse]

171. That's a very interesting story =)

Thanks for the additional info about the mormon faith, too. I'd heard eerie stuff about them before.
Anyway, I'm glad that things (seem to) have stablized for you a bit.

[neebob]

173. Yes, I'm fine, thank you -

better, I think, in a lot of ways. Which is not to say I'm glad it happened or I'd do it again. Just that it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

I don't mean to suggest, either, that my death-sponge episode had all that much to do with my atheism. It just really helped to clear up my thinking, and not long afterward I realized I'm an atheist.

[neebob]

161. Here's an old thread about Mormon beliefs, if you're interested

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=80138#80302

[Gelliebeans]

139. Hey your wife

sounds like my husband. He has been an agnostic since we met. I am an atheist. He threw away the white shirt and tie when he was 17 and ran like hell.

My mother in law never misses an oppurtunity to send the missionaries out to our house though 15 years later. They come to the door asking for brother and sister XXXXX (referring to us) mind you I have never even stepped foot in the mormon church including our wedding that went over like a lead balloon on his side of the family.
I have chased these intruders off year after year but recently I mentioned my attorney was interested in me getting names and I haven't seen em in a while ;)

We also have a huge collection of ornamental jesus figures in the closet given to us from his relatives. :rofl:

I laugh now because if I didn't I would go batshit crazy :crazy:

[Danger Mouse]

146. Creepy...

Good that you can laugh about it...these people never give up. Like Jehovah's Witnesses, but crazier.
I actually like some of the JW beliefs (SOME)...so they're not ALL bad.

[neebob]

158. Mormons giving ornamental Jesus figures?

I was taught that crosses and statues of Jesus and what have you are graven images, and that's why we didn't have them in the Mormon church. Of course I was a kid, and I didn't think about the enormous white Jesus in the SL temple visitor's center or all the golden Moronis on the tops of temples until much later. Still, I can't say as I've ever seen a statue of Jesus in a Mormon home. Wall portraits, yes, but no statues.

Then again, I haven't had much exposure in the last 25 years. Perhaps Gordon B. Wrinckley decided it was okay to have ornamental Jesus figures.

[Gelliebeans]

163. I actually have one

We all got one for xmas one year.
All white porcelein jesus with children at his feet and if I recall there was a lamb also. (haven't pulled it from the closet in a long time)
It was actually purchased through a mormon store (unknown if it was an actual LDS gift shop)in Utah by MIL while she visited her "good" children, we are kiddingly referred to as the rebellous ones. hee hee ;)

Btw all her good children got knocked up before they got married and that godless liberal that her son married waited until after the wedding. Hypocrisy Alert**

I joke but like I said I have to or this would make me insane. They have calmed down somewhat as they have aged also too in their fervor of converting me figuring the rest of their children follow the teachings so they have a good batting average.


I also have a jesus beverage tray with handles (no, I am not kidding) :rofl:

[neebob]

167. It's possible I was misinformed (*irony*)

I don't recall who told me about the graven images. Because the church has laypeople with "callings" instead of regular clergy, different ideas fly around. Add the General Authorities' efforts to obscure and cover up the really embarrassing stuff and make the rest more presentable, and Mormons tend to to be a confused bunch.

My family was pretty normal and uninvolved in the church until we moved from Salt Lake to Arvada, Colorado, when I was 14. Then for some reason, I think to save their marriage, my parents jumped off the deep end - remarried in the temple and went to church every Sunday. It was weird enough for me at that particular age, and my dad being all mood disordered and controlling made it that much worse. I wouldn't say I was traumatized, but it added to my issues.

The period of involvement lasted five or six years, until we moved back to SLC in 1980 and my parents became Jack Mormons again. My dad never went back to church, and my mom only just did about a year ago. She's become insufferable, going on and on about church stuff as if she doesn't know I don't share her beliefs.

I may have to take her to task on it eventually, but we've had a lot of other conflict that remains unresolved to my satisfaction and it doesn't seem worth it right now.

[Gelliebeans]

168. No I think you are right about the images

especially regarding the LDS churches not adorning themselves with crosses. However that being said, all of these rules probably aren't cast in stone and quite possibly subject to whoever is in the seat in power on whether they will selectively enforce rules. You are so right about the past and covering up conflicting evidence. Look at the fight recently about DNA evidence bunking part of the origins of book of mormon and how they lost many converts so they have pushed onto South America to make up for it.
My MIL keeps herself so busy within the church with Relief Society and the library that she doesn't have much time to inflict guilt.
We moved an hour away on purpose. Not because we don't want to see them but it makes it let easy for them to stop by and proselytize.
I am sorry that you had to go through that as a kid, it was hard I am sure.

[neebob]

174. Thanks

The funny thing is I don't remember thinking much about it at the time. It was just the way things were. My family was pretty normal, really. It certainly could have been a lot worse, and because of that I struggle with how I feel about it now. And of course Mo-Mom insists that we were "just a normal, happy family" and I don't remember it the way it was. My late-arriving understanding clashes with her massively revised mental history.

Her current level of Mormotude seriously concerns me. Some of the things she says just bowl me over - and the lack of regard for my views. I worry that she's delusional.

So I understand how annoying it must be for you and your husband with the in-laws. I ran away from my family, too, although for different reasons. And now that my mom's gone back to church, I don't think I could take living nearby.

[Mythsaje]

79. Not sure Machoism is a word.

Machismo would probably be the one you're looking for. :D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

101. I'll stick up for them

by saying if they didn't have that belief they wouldn't be such an amazing resource for genealogists. A lot of Mormon genealogies are rather inflated, but they house enormous collections that can be searched.

[neebob]

160. Oh, stop it.

I'm having deja vu here. :)

[EvilAL]

56. That's

screwed up. The problem is it didn't stop with their family. It continues to grow. I Don't know religion's claims or faith more than the next type. Baptists always come up when it's something crazy though.

[CrispyQ]

109. "a hole in my soul"

Holy fucking shit. Will the human collective ever evolve?

I had to laugh at this comment: "I wondered why we didn't have to be pretty the rest of the week." ;)

[Danger Mouse]

121. That's a song...

by Aerosmith. One of the few that I like. The only cure to your condition is a hot injection of...Steven Tyler.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. If I had been hospital administratora, I would have revoked that

doctor's privileges. According to their Hippocratic Oath, doctors are supposed to treat all patients irrespective of their feelings toward them. At the very least, I would have reprimanded him and said, "The patient didn't ask for a chaplain, and by the way, you aren't one, so do your own job."

[NMMNG]

191. Despicable

Health care providers like that shouldn't be in the business--they're little more than faith healers. And to refuse treatment to someone because they are an atheist is incredibly unethical.

Yet some claim atheists don't face persecution. :eyes:

[frebrd]

76. K & R n/m

[Danger Mouse]

77. Thanks =)

Love the discussion this thread is fostering!

[Mythsaje]

81. It's a great thread, Elrond...

Definitely deserving of a place on the Greatest Page.

[Danger Mouse]

91. Thank you =)

When I first came to the R/T forum, I significantly overreacted to the postings of atheists, and bascially acted like a dick. After reflection, I came to realize how stupid I had been.
I wanted to create this discussion...so all of us could share our pain, our thoughts, our perspectives, apart from judgement and condemnation and preaching.

[snot]

83. I can't believe in any god whose main requirement of me is that I believe in

her.

When I was 16, I realized that the whole idea of god made no sense, and that faith in god was inconsistent with my beliefs about methods for finding truth in every other area of life.

Lacking faith in a deity is at once among the most difficult deficiencies one can suffer and as easy as breathing.

I lack religious faith but am nonetheless a good person, honest, hard-working, charitable, etc. -- because I believe we can make the world a better place, and I for one have got nothing better to do.

I think we need purposes and goals in order to feel our lives have meaning; and what more interesting, challenging, and fulfilling endeavor could we possibly undertake, than to try to make the world better?

Having a god to order me to do this would not be helpful to me personally.

Most of the religious principles I've encountered that I could possibly accept are consistent with this endeavor; e.g., love thy neighbor, honor your parents, do not kill, do not steal, etc.

The religious principles that I cannot accept are inconsistent with my view of what will make the world better--of what is helpful: god hates fags, slavery of nonbelievers is ok, killing is ok if in a religious cause, etc.

I do not mean to set my own view up as an authority for anyone else. But I believe we each have a responsibility to ourselves and one another to try to figure out as honestly as possible what's really helpful and what isn't.

I've also noticed that the original or main prophet of most established religions seems to have been a genuinely, even radically inspired person, and that after that person died, there ensued a power struggle, often resulting in rather harsh elaborations of doctrine which were deployed by religious bureaucrats more in an effort to consolidate their own power than to actually help anyone.

If we all concentrated our attention and efforts and actually accomplished the few things every great prophet has agreed on -- to end killing, compulsion by force, theft and plunder; to protect and help children and the poor, weak, and elderly -- maybe then we should spend some time debating whether I will go to hell for my lack of faith, or whether women should cover their "ornaments", or whether god hates fags. Until then . . .

I personally believe we could not recognize the divine but for the fact that we partake in it to whatever extent it can be said to exist; and for some folks like me, it might be just as well for us to assume that we are it, that there likely isn't any "higher power" who's going to bail us out, but rather it's up to us to make things better for ourselves and our heirs.

What I wish I had a god for is to simply have someone authoritative who would love me no matter what, forgive me no matter what, and relieve me from the very heavy burdens of deciding what is right and wrong and how to run my life. But what would be the point of existence, if there were a god who had all of that under control, and all I had to do is obey?

I realize theologians could argue endlessly with most everything I've said; but their arguments haven't convinced me yet.

[Danger Mouse]

90. This idea has bothered me lately...

I have been concerned that many Christians (perhaps even myself, though I am unsure) are motivated to do good more out of a fear of hell than an honest desire to do good deeds.
I don't buy the idea that if you don't believe in the right sect or denomination, you've got a one-way ticket to hell. It's ridiculous, arrogant, and capricious to suggest such a thing. I'd love to see how the fundies justify this, too, that only THEIR sect is right, and all the others are populated by misguided hell-bound heathens.
If God is as forgiving and loving as I believe that he MUST be if religion is to make any sense whatsoever, then who (or even if) you worshipped shouldn't matter.
What matters is what's in your heart.
Also, hell is an entirely absurd concept. What kind of loving God would create and maintain such a thing for His beloved children?
I have yet to think of a single person that I found odious enough to deserve the horrors of an eternity of tortures far beyond that which the mind of man can comprehend. Even monsters like Hitler or Stalin or Bush (I do rank Bush as a monster =P), are not deserving of that.
Thanks for your thoughts, by the way. =)

[snot]

175. Thanks, I like your thoughts, too. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

178. I don't believe in hell, either

Years ago in Oregon, there was a cult leader who beat his 8-year-old daughter to death because "she was bad." Commentators asked sadly, "What could an 8-year-old do to deserve the death penalty?"

That's how I feel about the concept of hell. Eternity is a very long time, and what can a measly human being do to deserve eternal punishment? The Roman Catholic concept of purgatory actually makes more sense.

Nor do I believe in punishment after death for non-believers. In fact, most of the mainstream Christians have de facto rejected this old notion. It's impossible to hold that belief in a multicultural world, unless you make God out to be a sadist.

I'm currently involved in an Episcopal study course in Bible and theology for lay people (EFM), and we're going through the Old Testament at this point. It's fascinating to see how the concept of monotheism evolved in Judaism, from a point of view of "We each have our own gods," to "There is only one."

[Danger Mouse]

187. Indeed...

But Purgatory is only for Catholics...all non-Catholics still get a front row ticket to the hot seat =)
The Jehovah's Witnesses, interestingly enough, don't believe in Hell at all. Using biblical evidence, they argue that people who don't go to Heaven don't go to Hell, they simply die forever. They believe that God is love, and would not do something so horrible to his children as send them to Hell. 'Second death' deprives you of the joy of being in Heaven, but without the eternity of brutal torture.
I've come to find this belief much more...acceptable to my spirit. As infuriating as Witnesses can be, I think they have the right idea there.
As I've said before, I can't imagine WHAT could be horrible enough to deserve something as odious as Hell. I guess it's a neat thing to threaten people with, but then you get people like me, who get waaaay too paranoid about it, and it partially spoils their religious outlook.

[barbtries]

84. faith is not dependent upon belief in a cognizant gawd or

subscription to one or other brand of religion. (i won't even spend more than this sentence discussing how many people's faith has been destroyed by religion)

"faith" is not limited to a judeo-christian monotheistic supreme being i.e. "god." i suppose you could call me an atheist - what i do believe regarding a cognizant god is that people made gawd up as opposed to the other way around.

that does not preclude my having faith, and i do have faith - since my daughter was murdered i have found it necessary to nurture whatever faith i could muster in order to even contemplate going on and living, in a vital sense. my daughter reinvested me with faith with a catalogue of phenomena that continues to grow more than five years after her death.

bekah has made miracles happen...though honestly much of the phenomena (i call it the Bekah Church of Wonder Catalogue of Unexplained Phenomena and Incredible Small World Stories) is as arguable as getting the chills out of the blue, hearing a special song on the radio.

the thing about spiritual beliefs is that we all must choose our own. thank GAWD you don't want to proselytize me because that crap really pisses me off: it is fundamentally disrespectful. Our five senses tell us one thing - but inside...a spirit yearns after eternity. Others are skeptical of the existence of a lasting soul.

Anti-dogma from the Bekah Church of Wonder

we choose our beliefs and i'm happy to find someone who although religious is smart enough and secure enough to respect that. thanks

8-30-96(which incidentally explains Bales Law as it applies to Life, Death, Time and Religion)

The sermon i delivered at Bekah's grave on 07-06-02

[Danger Mouse]

89. Wow...

I'm lost for words. Thank you for sharing what you have been through.
I'd like to think that the most important thing of all, for everybody, is love.

[eridani]

85. I do spirituality and ethics, but not faith

It's pretty clear that for the majority, faith is closely entangled with both of those things. I think that on a political board, the focus should be on ethics. If you actually look at the behavior of people, it is clear that good behavior is not linked with any particular faith, or lack thereof. There is no such thing as an ethically privileged epistemology.

Why I lost my faith--I actually followed through on a pledge to read the Bible cover to cover, thus coming in contact with all the stuff they never mentioned in Sunday school. Not only do I not worship Entities who cheerlead for mass murder and rape, I wouldn't even consider inviting them over to my house for dinner. This was in adolescence--in adulthood I've come to see the record of spiritual progress in the Bible, the change in the conception of God as an ethnic partisan mass murderer to a universal deity who'd just like everybody to be ethical and to get along (Book of Jonah). And Jesus, the ultimate advocate for universal ethics then just gets transformed into another tribal totem to justify different ethics for "us" and "them."

[Danger Mouse]

88. It's not hard...

To find unpleasant stuff in the bible. I teach sunday school, and sometimes when I'm preparing a lesson, I'll take a little detour to some of the wackier Old Testament passages...it can be pretty sick and disturbing in places. Last week I was reading about the systematic slaughter of the family of Ahab down to the last man, woman, and child. AMEN!
That's why I could never understand why someone would think that the bible could be interpreted literally!

[eridani]

153. Then you have moral standards about what is appropriate for kids--

--which are shared widely by believers and non-believers alike. Where did they come from? By definition, certainly not from the Bible.

[Danger Mouse]

155. Seriously...

at one point, this Israeli king encounters a procession of mourners who are off to mourn someone's death. He finds out that they are the family of somebody that he doesn't like, so he has them all killed!
Something tells me that reading the Old Testament gives Pat Robertson a massive hard-on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. We've just covered some fascinating material about how the

Bible was put together. A lot of the "slaughter the enemies" stuff was put together during the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE) and is not contemporary with the supposed events at all. The priests and scribes became concerned that the exiles would lose their identity in a foreign country and so added "solidarity building" material to the scriptures.

In fact, a lot of modern scholars believe that the Israelites just migrated back into Canaan in several small groups and mixed with the local population a lot more than the post-Exilic writers would like to admit. Hence the recurrent complaints about Israelites "following other gods."

[Danger Mouse]

188. I was reading in a...

book about Biblical terms, from quite awhile ago, 25-30 years at least. It seemed to be published by religious types considering the way some of the definitions were worded. It explained the origins of a lot of stories and terms. One thing it mentioned is that the Christian concept of Hell was likely taken from similar beliefs held by Persians at the time (New Testament period)...I don't think they believed in Hell in Old Testament times, but I could be wrong.
It's interesting (if scary) stuff, isn't it?
The Bible itself isn't carved out of stone, considering the fact that the varying translations and interpretations can greatly affect they way you view your faith.

[Evoman]

86. Thank you for your support.

Its 4:24 am right now, and I'm about to go to bed soon, so I will reply to your post again tommorow morning (lol..or afternoon, if I sleep in).

Don't expect congeniality in this forum, and you won't be disappointed, hehe. I started a post about atheist stories (very non-confrontational) and it turned into a big flame war right away somehow (if I remember, it was because of an accusation that atheists have faith). It had to be locked. That experience really made me cynical to the whole "I just want to understand you" bit.

I'm not commenting on your post specifically, however. I appreciate you wanting to open a dialog. Lets hope things don't get carried away with passive aggressive crap ;)

[Danger Mouse]

87. Thanks!

So far, things have gone well...knock on wood!

[cosmik debris]

94. When I went to college (Back in the Dark Ages)

I took a course in Old Testament Religion at 9:00 am followed by a course in Greek and Roman Mythology at 10:00am. The next semester I took New Testament Religion at 9:00 am and The Works of Ovid at 10:00 am. After those two semesters, it was clear to me that the only difference between theology and mythology was the subjective interpretation.

[Danger Mouse]

96. Zappa fan...good to see =)

What college did you go to, if you don't mind me asking?

[cosmik debris]

98. Baylor University

B.A. in Latin Literature

[rman]

95. this atheist doesn't feel he's in a minority, nor does he feel mistreated.

[Danger Mouse]

97. I'm glad to hear that.

=)

[Random_Australian]

166. This one doesn't either - he's in Australia where loons are known well

for what they are.

[Wheezy]

99. Interesting post

I'm Christian. In the past several years as the religious right and fundies stepped up their generalizations and sweeping attacks against so-called non-believers, I have found myself identifying more with athiests and those whose religions or faiths are in the minority in this country. I would go so far as to say that my unwillingness to go along with the fundie screed has branded me a non-believer by my own religion.

Many of those in the spotlight/media who call themselves Christians have turned their backs on the very teachings of Christ, who stood for acceptance, love, and non-judgment of fellow humans. (I would say Tony Campolo is the exception to this rule -- but he's not in the media nearly enough).

The irony is overwhelming.

[Danger Mouse]

125. It saddens and confuses me.

I just don't get it. I don't understand how they can call themselves Christians. I try so hard to understand, but it only makes my head hurt.
Honestly...I don't think I've ever encountered a hateful atheist. But hateful Christians...far too many.

[Wheezy]

133. Personally, I think the hatred stems from fear. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

144. Yeah, I think you're right.

Fear is generally the basis for hate...we tend to fear that which we don't understand. And the fundies don't understand atheists or homosexuals...they don't fit into their little jesus-filled fantasy world of lilywhite christian hypocrites singing hymns to the almighty while laughing at the dirty sinners twisiting in hell's fiery pits.
They fear. They hate. And they call it God's love.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

180. I think it stems from the fact that among the fundies, there is no formal

vetting of candidates for the ministry, nor is there any required training, nor is there any type of standard theological education for the members.

It is therefore easy for a charlatan type to declare himself a minister, start a storefront church, gather a flock of previously unchurched people, and preach any damned thing he pleases. If he's obsessed with his own repressed homosexual inclinations or declaring war on "heathens," he'll cherry pick Biblical passages that support his views, and his religiously illiterate congregation won't know any better.

In the mainstream church, by contrast, clergy have to have a four-year college degree before they go to three years of seminary, complete with internship-like posts in real parishes. For the members, there's the standard lectionary, i.e. a three-year cycle of lessons to be read aloud during the services, so that you hear a broad range of Biblical passages and can't skip over anything.

[JerseygirlCT]

150. I do agree! nt

[tbyg52]

100. In my case,

it's not a "choice," any more than being gay is a "choice." I have been a freethinker (my current term of choice, subject to change) since I was old enough to know what it meant--somewhere around age seven, I believe. I think it had a lot to do with being a voracious reader and getting my hands on what I regard as the "right" books.

You are very right about the social consequences. Thank you for your comments.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

102. Part of navigating through society

is knowing when to shut up and when to share. There are groups I share things with and groups I don't. The challenge is figuring out which is which.

An example: when my dad died, he lived for 11 days without hydration because of his living will. That, to some people, is murder. I only discuss that situation with people I trust because I don't want to get into it.

Basically, it is nobody's business whether you are an atheist or not.

[OnionPatch]

103. I have been on both sides

I was raised Methodist, then in my early twenties, I rejected all things religious for many of the reasons you will hear atheists voice here at DU. I considered myself atheist for many years. Then I had several things "happen" that made me rethink the possibility that there may be something more to life (and death) than meets the eye and as I researched the metaphysical, I regained a belief in the "divine." But having been on both sides of the aisle, I can understand the frustration an atheist has toward the religious, especially those that feel they must convert everyone else. I think this perspective has left me much less touchy about religion. Although I consider myself a liberal and unconventional Christian, I never feel offense when I read the Christian jokes, in fact, I laugh at them myself. :shrug: I guess I never see them as aimed at me, I see them as aimed at those kind of religious people who are judgmental, intolerant and unable to think for themselves, ie; right wing Christians. I can honestly say that over the years, I've only read one or two "religious" posts here at DU that I found offensive. They insinuated that anyone who has any spiritual belief at all is indulging in fairy tales. Even then, I saw those posts as only an individual opinion and one that they had a right to voice. If it were up to me, atheism would be as socially acceptable as any religious belief.

[immoderate]

105. What do you mean by spiritual beliefs?

I, as an atheist, have what I would call strong spiritual beliefs, that is, a sense of wonder and awe at the beauty and harmony of nature and the universe.

However, if you are referring to super beings, with magical powers, what can an atheist do besides regard these as fairy tales? Does calling them something else make a difference? Is ignoring them while holding that opinion less offensive?

--IMM

[OnionPatch]

116. I understand what you're saying

I guess I probably used the wrong word in the post above. I understand your meaning of the word spiritual because the "wonder and awe at the beauty and harmony of nature and the universe" was also my source of spiritualism during my athiest years. That hasn't really changed for me. What differs with my beliefs now vs. then is the idea that there is such a thing as a soul, some source of undetected individual energy that may exist beyond death and even in some other realms. Call it a fairy tale if you like. But you can't prove there isn't more than meets the eye anymore than I can prove there is. I see no reason to be at each other over it. :shrug:

[immoderate]

136. Well, if we are "at each other..."

this thread would be the limits of our adversity, as I'm pretty sure we'd have little that's important to argue about in other forums. Yes, I would put it on a par with fairy tales, but you don't have to. I usually try not to use that terminology here, but you mentioned it first.

Getting back to your original statement, as to what may give offense. Let's see if I can abstract that. Someone says they believe in X, which is "undetected" and "may exist," and is not necessary to explain observed phenomena. Moreover, if it does exist, it challenges what we already have ready explanations for. I'd say another observer could hardly be called offensive for doubting it. Yet, that is the mild retribution one encounters in a friendly, accepting place such as DU. The consequences outside are more dire.

As to your statement, "But you can't prove there isn't more than meets the eye anymore than I can prove there is." Which is more likely, that something for which there is no evidence does exist, or it doesn't? Substitute (with apologies to Dawkins) unicorns, celestial teapots, or flying spaghetti monsters. I can't prove those don't exist either. Should you be offended if I call unicorns a fairy tale? So it's that reasoning I'm calling foul on, and that would be the end, except people get offended if I do.

Here's why it could be important. Do you live any differently now that you have a soul, than when you didn't? For instance, are you ready to provoke the rapture? There are those who are. I don't think you are one of them. :) But how do you show them it's not coming?

--IMM

[OnionPatch]

151. Well, I think you're preaching to the choir in a way

with me. I think you have the right to think some religious beliefs are fairy tales. To be honest, I think a lot of religious beliefs are fairy tales, too. And I share your frustration with the fundamentalists Christians. I don't believe in rapture and I don't want to live their fairy tale, either. I think it's an outrage the way they assume we should all live according to their particular beliefs. Believe me, they would probably just as well string me up if they knew what my Christian beliefs and scripture interpretations are. At the very least they would think I was a heathen. Sometimes I think I should maybe not call myself a Christian, but what does one call oneself when their main moral philosophy is based on the teachings of Christ? :shrug:

I do have to argue that the difference between believing in some sort of soul or energy or life force that transcends the physical realm is not quite the same as believing in unicorns. There are more than a few respected people, even scientists who believe there could be a soul. Plenty of people have had things like near death experiences and I've had some experiences myself that seem hard to explain, so at least there is some evidence for my belief. I don't think anyone has found any evidence of the existance of unicorns or celestial teapots. Not yet, anyway. :)

[immoderate]

152. Don't forget the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

:)

BTW, I too believe in the teachings of Christ, and I got them right from the horse's mouth, my Jewish mother.

--IMM

[OnionPatch]

154. The flying spaghetti monster, I have actually seen!

But that's a whole other story involving a drunken father at dinner time......:)

[immoderate]

104. I'm a Jewish atheist.

I grew up in a neighborhood where most of the fathers were WWII era vets and very liberal in their religious views. We were Jewish and sent for religious training, but that was mostly to satisfy family obligations.

I remember, as an adolescent, playing with my friends in a wooded area we liked, in a place called "the comfortable tree" and comparing notes about what things were real, and what things were imaginary. For us, god was like fairies, ghosts, angels, etc., as something that was made up.

One of my favorite books, as a child, was a book of bible stories. I read it many times. Loved that book. I never thought that any of it was actually true. It seemed like fantasy from the time I was old enough to have such concepts. BTW, my mother always maintained she believed in god. My father would only say, "Nobody knows." Both were active in our very liberal reform synagogue. I was required to attend occasionally, but belief was not a requirement. I got out of that as soon as I was old enough to assert myself. In the neighborhood, I did have contact with orthodox Jews, who closely resemble fundy Christians. I just regarded them as irrational.

As far as morality goes, my parents, actually mostly my mother, did the right thing there, appealing to my rational sense. My mother got across most effectively the two notions that form my moral sense, the golden rule, and the uniqueness of life, by explaining the logic of it. That took very well with me.

In short, I never believed in god. It never made any sense to me. I regard application of faith as an aspect of personality. It seems clear to me, (and this is what gets me in trouble around here,) that god, to most liberals, is an expression of what they want god to be, and not any assessment of reality. It's quite clear that around here, theists have more control of god than god does of them. And then they get resentful of the suggestion that god is a figment of their imagination.

I accept the fact that people's beliefs will differ, and nobody has everything right, so I get along with anybody who can accept that concept.

--IMM

[Danger Mouse]

126. Well, I think that...

Everyone shapes their faith to suit themselves. God is in the eye of the beholder, because everyone sees God differently. For the fundie, they have been taught that God is hateful, cruel, harsh, and brutal, and this is the vision they adopt, and their belief system is tailored to match that view of God.
At night I speak with God in my mind. It's more of an interior dialogue than anything else. I express my concerns and desires in my mind, and if there's someone listening, then that makes it all the more worthwhile. Just something I derive comfort from.
I would've not too long ago gotten insulted at the suggestion that God is a figment of my imagination...
but not anymore. I understand now, what you mean.
You could very well be right about that as well. Please, don't be afraid to express those thoughts here...if anyone attacks you for saying it, I'll have your back.

[immoderate]

135. Thanks. Thanks for your understanding.

Where others take offense, you are acknowledging the consistency I am trying to put into my reasoning. And my aim is not to offend, so I'm glad you see that.

As a matter of fact, I think we have it all covered. I already alluded to the notion that god is a unique and personal way that each individual deals with the mystery of the universe. So while it might be fodder for intellectual jousting, it's not a concern in dealing with people. We get along just fine.

--IMM

[Danger Mouse]

143. You are welcome...

and thank you for giving me a chance to reach that understanding. Cause when I first came to DU, that understanding wasn't there.
Before this, my contact with atheists had been minimal...aside from having dated...well, a few, lol. I guess I attract them =P
I've learned a lot from those of you willing to teach and willing to listen.

[CrispyQ]

108. My 2¢

I believe that the existence or non-existence of god is irrelevant for the following reasons:

1. I don't need my ethics spelled out for me by a 'supreme' being, a priest, or any other being for that matter. I know what is right & what is wrong. Even if a person chooses a 'pre-defined' ethical code, if you believe in free will, it comes down to each moment & will you follow the code you have chosen or not?

2. I don't need the motivation of reward or the fear of punishment to do what's right. I choose to do what's right because it's the right thing to do. If I choose not to do what's right it's because I sold out my ethics; I lowered my standards. Only I can deal with that.

3. The question of life after death is irrelevant as well. The only moment that matters is THIS ONE!

Many people who believe in god, do not follow god’s code of conduct, yet they think they are morally superior to those of us who define and follow our own code. This is probably the single most annoying thing about many Christians -- that atheists are immoral simply because we don't believe, yet many of them behave reprehensibly, yet tout their superior morality over us. :eyes:

Fortunately, I do not see much of that on DU.

Great screen name, btw!! :rofl:

[Danger Mouse]

124. Glad you liked it =)

It is a partial expression of my nerdiness and my loathing of Scientology, one of the more vile pseudo-religions out there.
My response to you.
1.) Everyone compiles their own view of what is right and wrong to them. For many religious types, their 'code' is dictated for them, and hypocrisy comes into play when they insincerely demand compliance to their code, while not practicing their own morals.
2.) Right on.
3.) Again, people are far too motivated by this. The promise of heaven or the fear of hell. I am guilty of this as well...I have a terrible fear of hell...terrible enough that it is one of the two things that keeps me connected to my faith. The other is my love of being a Sunday school teacher. BUT I don't do good things (on those rare occasions that I do do them) because of a fear of hell...that fear is completely irrational. And I don't know how to get away from it.

[Zhade]

184. "it is one of the two things that keeps me connected to my faith"

Pardon my surely uncomfortable question, but...isn't that a form of spiritual terrorism being supposedly carried out by your god?

Unfathomable to me that anyone would worship a being that would torture them for eternity if they step out of line.

I know it'll probably sound hollow, but - no offense intended whatsoever. It's just that if the god of the bible turned out to be real, there's no way I'd worship him; he's at best an asshole, according to his own alleged deeds and words as described in the bible.

[Danger Mouse]

189. No offense taken.

It's not necessarily an uncomfortable question, as it is one that I wonder myself. I wouldn't blame God for the 'spiritual terrorism' as you call it, and it's a very nifty phrase. I don't think God wants me to feel this way. If God DID want me to feel this way, then God wouldn't be worth believing in, because that's pretty sadistic.
I blame those who overemphasize Hellfire and brimstone, and those who have pushed the focus of religion onto eternal damnation rather than God's love. Unfortunately, that has deeply affected me in all sorts of ways. I think the constant threats of Hell were designed by religious leaders to keep people in line, because it's easier to control people through fear than through happy thoughts. Religious leaders still use this tool, and it perverts the central themes of a religion that is supposedly about love and tolerance. Instead it becomes small-mindedness, paranoia, hatred, intolerance, arrogance, and hypocrisy.
I think evil is purely man's creation, and that 'the Devil' is merely a scapegoat, meant to absolve men of the evil that they do.
Thank you for asking that question, though. I could go on and on about this issue forever...yet, I don't think I could discuss the issue with too many religious types. Not very many at all. I've considered bringing it up with my pastor, but I worry that she'd react badly and tell me I couldn't teach Sunday school anymore (because I'm not willing to tell the kids that God's going to roast them in the fires of Hell if they ever think of being another religion)...and I'm not really the confrontational type. Even talking about it with my mom wasn't too helpful, since she wanted to know 'what's supposed to happen to all of the bad people then?'
Is it really that impossible to be an open-minded Christian that believes in love and understanding, above all else?
In this...I feel alone, at times. Sigh.

[YankeyMCC]

110. I've told my story a couple of times

Here and in the A/A forum. You might like to take a look in there for many personal stories.

Thanks for the post btw. I will make one comment, for me and from what I've heard from others, it really isn't a choice to not believe. No more than it is a choice to not believe the sky is yellow. Belief in supernatural gods just doesn't exist in us.

[Finder]

111. Good post...I don't think most atheists choose...

not to believe. We do choose the label though.

I was once a believer and my path to atheism was slow but well researched. Of course I stopped off at the agnostic station and the deist station along the way...(we share the same parking lot.)lol

I do respect everyone's right to believe what they want. However, if those beliefs are imposed into politics, public policy, my children's education, or on me personally they best be backed up by facts.

[wryter2000]

112. Agnostic here

Thanks for your kind words. Frankly, I've seen many posts on DU (and in the religion forum, for pity's sake) that are utterly and truly insulting to people of faith. I used to try to fight them but finally gave up.

For many years, I didn't know whether I was an atheist or agnostic. I can't bring myself to believe in the supernatural. I've never seen any credible evidence of miracles, resurrection, or life after death. What finally convinced me I'm an agnostic is that I realize that I can't know everything. There are things that are demonstrably true that can't be proved by the scientific method. Aesthetics and ethics are two areas that aren't accessible to science, no matter how many silly arguments sociobiologists put forward. You can't prove by measuring the words that Shakespeare was a great writer, but I don't think there's an atheist alive who'd disagree that he was a great writer.

I finally decided that it's arrogant to assume I possess universal truth on this subject, so I consider myself an agnostic.

[Evoman]

118. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you maybe an atheist.....

" I can't bring myself to believe in the supernatural"

Is a statement of BELIEF

"I realize that I can't know everything"

Is a statement of KNOWLEDGE.

Agnostic means that we simply can't know. Atheism means we don't believe in god. The two words cover completely different concept. I think that many people who call themselves agnostic may be in fact Agnostic Atheist or Weak Atheists. I used to call myself agnostic too but I realize, that on top of not knowing if there was a god, I didn't really think there was one either. Think of it in terms of probability...if you lean anyway else (i.e I BELIEVE there is less than 50 chance or more than 50 percent chance that god exists), you are not really purely agnostic.

I'm not sure if this this is what you believe, however, so I will let you define yourself as you will.

[wryter2000]

132. What's in a name?

:) It doesn't really matter to me. I'm just unwilling to say that I'm sure there's no God.

[Zhade]

185. Only strong atheists say they're sure, so you'd be safe calling yourself an atheist...

...since most of don't state that we're sure there are no gods.

Myself, I'm an agnostic atheist, which fully represents my views on the matter.

[wryter2000]

113. I forgot

My own pet peeve is getting blamed every time someone does something loathsome. Certain types blame all kinds of horrible behavior on the supposed lack of religion in our society. If they hear about some creep being cruel to animals, they'll scream "This is what happens when you take God out of the schools" or some such idiocy. They never even ask if the person who did the cruelty is a Christian or not. They just assume.

I usually tell them calmly that I'm an agnostic and I'll stack my ethics up against anyone else's.

Then, there's "If you don't believe in God, why do you treat others with kindness?" To that, I answer, "Because my parents brought me up to be a good person." Puh-leeeeze.

[Danger Mouse]

122. Ah yes...

The narrow-minded viewpoint that only religion can bring about a person that is moral. THIS sickens me. Such arrogance. A lot of the people who believe this only show any sort of kindness or consideration to others because they fear the scorch of hell's flames. They have no right to stick their nose up in the air. When an atheist does good, it's because they realize that it's the right thing to do, period. They don't need the old man in the sky to tell them that.
Christians should do good works just for the sake of doing them. You don't need religion to be a good person.

[KaptBunnyPants]

123. I was raised in an Atheist family, but struggled with Christianity for most of my life.

But my parents never really pushed me much in that direction. My mother, (an atheist), worried that without a proper Christian moral background I would become callous and uncaring, or perhaps worst of all, a Republican. She would always tell me to ask What Would Jesus Do, (and this was at least a decade before that became popular), although her Jesus was much different from the one I would encounter later in life. I went to church a few times with my grand parents, and was converted to Christianity by friends from school.

I wanted to believe so much. I wanted to find the hope, strength, and comfort that other Christians found from their faith, but no matter how hard I tried, it just seemed wrong to me. There were numerous little issues that bothered me, and one great big huge issue which I could never find a way around. I was raised in Texas, and the only "real" religion in my community was a hard line Protestant faith which required a simultaneous belief in God as omniscient and in Hell. I could never combine those two thoughts in a satisfying way; If God knew what I would do before I was ever created, and God created me as I am and placed me in my circumstances, in what possible way do I have free will? The same people would tell me that God has a plan for all people, no one can violate God's will, and that God forces all those people who were damned at creation to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. Even if I could save myself, this idea was so morally hideous to me that it poisoned the well of religion for me. Christians would tell me that I am wrong, and that I have free will, but would be unable to explain how I could have free will in a universe with a single creator who has foreknowledge of the future, which is required for Biblical prophecy.

Even though other faiths, even other Christian faiths, don't have this apparent logical error in their morality, my experience has made it difficult to open myself up to them. Once I made the decision to not be a part of this group, I began to realize how terrifying it is to have your fellow countrymen denounce you as evil and Satanic. John Hagee runs his Church not far from where I live, and he became the face of Christianity to me, even though I know that's not entirely fair to other Christians. My life and politics were shaped by a revulsion to his movement, and seeing him break bread with the president is just another reminder of how "mainstream" his brand of Christianity really is. If there is a God, why does it allow men such as this to represent it on this Earth?

[Danger Mouse]

127. I don't know...

I just don't know.
The very idea of hell itself is terrible, too terrible for me to accept...and yet I fear it...with the irrational trembling fear of a child.
This is what religion can do to you, and I wonder if this is what God wants of me...to be so afraid of an eternity of horrible tortures for every little bad thing I did in life, every little mistake.
I just want to understand why, but I'm so afraid to speak out, because of how I fear people will react to it. Whenever I've suggested that there's not a hell, most Christians have gotten PISSED at me.
But I can't believe in hell, I just can't. It's too awful. It's too evil. It is a place created by hate, not love, so how could a loving God have anything to do with it?
Is it crazy for me to fear something that I cannot accept or believe?

[KaptBunnyPants]

131. If it's crazy, then you'd have to lock me away too.

I never stopped being fearful that somehow, on a level I just don't understand, I am wrong and will pay for my willfulness dearly. But then, since most of my family and many of my friends would be in Hell, I'm not sure how much I could really enjoy heaven.

[Danger Mouse]

140. One of my best friends in this world...

would be in Hell, too...and I wouldn't want to be in heaven without her. Thank you for saying this, though...it feels SO much better to know that I am not alone in feeling this way...

[Mythsaje]

134. Hell has ALWAYS been a major stumbling block for me...

It makes no sense. "I'm going to punish you forever for mistakes you made during the brief span of time you were crawling around on the Earth."

How does that make sense? That's not a deity--that's a psychopath.

Besides, why would an omniscient, omnipotent being require the worship of what, to "him," would be a bunch of ants? Sounds like "God" has a serious self-esteem issue.

[immoderate]

137. And he's got a Taser...

:evilgrin:

--IMM

[Danger Mouse]

141. And also...

God and Jesus love you, and their love is unconditional...but they can and will still sentence you and your loved ones to an eternity of brutal tortures for a laundry lists of various reasons from the ridiculous to the just plain cruel.
If I stopped believing that God was all-loving and all-forgiving, then I would not be able to be a Christian anymore, without being further mired in self-loathing than I already tend to be.

[skyblue]

194. More Hell Stumbling blocks -- What about Dogs who lick their

units and hump virtually everything will they go to hell ? Will their owners who don't punish the dogs go to hell, or will they allow them to do so with impugnity for both? (IE some religions have associated sex with evil). And aren't there other animals which share the same activities and why does the creator have so many examples of such creations if this act by his/her creations are so evil?

[Danger Mouse]

198. All dogs go to heaven.

Even the gay ones and the ones voiced by Burt Reynolds.

[Danger Mouse]

129. About atheism as a 'choice'...

I misspoke here. I don't necessarily think any faith, or lack of it, is a choice per se.
It just is. It can change, certainly, but not by choice so much as a shift in the way you see the world.
If you believe in the supernatural, then you would be more inclined to develop and maintain some form of religious beliefs. If you do not, then you would not be likely to have any sort of faith.
There are variations and nuances to this, of course, but this covers a lot of it.

[immoderate]

138. Excellent point.

Some people are materialist as in "what you see is what you get." Others conceptualize a universe with a mysterious, unseen underworld. Where does this come from? I see it as coming from the same place that make one prefer vanilla to chocolate, or stripes to polka dots. Chaos? Complexity? Randomness? Aesthetics? :shrug:

--IMM

[Danger Mouse]

142. I had heard...

not too long ago...about a theory that the entire universe was a holographic projection of some kind.
I love stuff like this. I just love the vast unknown that is our universe...there's so little we understand, and so much to explore...the vastness of it all makes me realize just how insignificant we really are in the grand cosmic scheme! Man is a tiny blip in a vast universe that is large beyond all imagining...and yet we are so self-important, so arrogant to claim that it all was created for us, that it all exists for us. What there is, just IS...and it will still be after the last of us has gone.
If there is a God, then He created all of this not for us, but because He damn well felt like it.

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Can I just attempt a little clarification, though

I don't think any of the Christians at DU are the ones guilty of all you mention in this paragraph:

"Even here, on DU, where acceptance and tolerance are supposed to be the norms...atheists are still a minority, and are still mistreated. The possibility for discourse is hurt by the lack of trust between many of those who have faith and those who do not. Yet, it is those of us who have faith who constantly claim to be persecuted. We claim that the atheists are trying to take away Christmas, school prayer, and the ten commandments. We claim that the atheists are trying to secularize the country. We claim that atheists are pushing a gay agenda. We claim that God is not with us because of the atheists.
We wail, we tear our clothes, we gnash our teeth. We gather in our multi million dollar megachurches, we hear political screeds from insincere men stoking our fears, manipulating our desires. We fund them with our money, our sweat, our blood. We give them their vast political power, and they create our nightmares of hell and torment and evil atheists conspiring to unravel all that we hold dear.
America is in their grip, and despite our glorious victory on November 7th...they are not going away. Their power is lessened, but not obliterated. And while they hold so much power over the hearts and minds of people, and while people continute to remain willfully, stubbornly ignorant...the atheist will continue to be scorned for no reason other than that they chose not to believe."

I don't claim to be persecuted in this country. I don't think anyone's trying to take away Christmas (as if that is even possible), I'm all for high and strong walls separating church and state. The country IS secular, and thankfully so. If atheists are pushing for gay rights, they have an ally in me. And I think God is with all of us.

I may have, at one time, wailed or gnashed my teeth. I believe that might have been after the "elections" in 2000 or 2004 -- or perhaps both. I've never attended a megachurch, and have no interest in doing so.

I'm very interested in tolerance and respect for differing viewpoints. I support the right of our religious folks as well as our atheists to make their own informed choices as to what they believe. I don't require anyone to share my beliefs, and have never tried to persuade anyone to do so.

In short, I don't think there's anyone here (or at least that I've seen) attempting to persecute atheists. But I do understand why in the "real world", that would feel to be the case. But writing off an entire segment of people doesn't help the cause of understanding, you know?

[Danger Mouse]

147. Not quite on that level.

Nor do I think all Christians are like that. Obviously, I don't think I am.
I don't think that atheists are 'persecuted' here, per se, but it's hard for them to say anything, a lot of the times, without a bunch of our faithful posters jumping all over them in outrage.
I know, because I have been one of them in past times.
The country is secular, but a lot of powerful people are trying to change that, and they are a threat to EVERYONE who doesn't share their very narrow set of views.
I stated some examples of ridiculous views, because that's what they are: ridiculous. And to hear some fundies talk, they seem to think that it is EXACTLY what atheists are planning...to steal away their precious religious holidays. You ever see how bent out of shape people get over being wished 'happy holidays?'
It's all so very crazy.

[JerseygirlCT]

148. Oh I agree with that!

Suddenly tolerance and kindness are some sort of marks of evil. (Imagine that wishing someone a happy holiday would be so terrible?) And yes, I know there are some loud and dangerous people eager to dismantle the protections of our Constitution and bend the country to their wishes for theocracy. Believe me, even as a believer, I'll be over with the atheists fighting that one. And we'll have plenty of company, thankfully.

I'm just extremely uncomfortable being boxed in with the people who believe as those you mentioned do. I assume you are, too. But I've seen attempts to muddy the waters between believers in general and fundamentalist theocratists and it's always disturbing to me in the extreme.

I'm actually glad to read your post and your comments. Any bridge-building is a good thing to me and I admire your doing just that!

[Danger Mouse]

149. Indeed...

I don't like being lumped together with them, either. It's an upsetting feeling, to think that people perceive me as having anything in common with those types other than a label.

[readmoreoften]

162. Thanks Elrond. I hope this post gives you some insight into this atheist mind:

I have no beef with DUers or anyone that believes in any narrative or "origin story" for who we are what we are. I only get offended when religious people interfere with my health and safety (by tacitly supporting hate crimes or denying my partner and I jobs and health insurance). I only fight the ones who are a threat to my life or the lives of the ones I love. When someone's belief in the origin of human life competes with my right to thrive and survive, I have no choice but to fight them because they are my enemy whether conscious or unconscious of how they are harming me. I view fundamentalist christians as a danger to my life, not as bad people.

Moderate and liberal christians--why would I have a problem with them? Their beliefs about the origin of the world and my place in it isn't threatening at all. I do, however, get really disappointed when they take the side of the fundamentalists who want me dead or harmed or beaten down (emotionally or physically). I feel abandoned. I feel lied to, to a degree, when liberal christians take their side. At that moment, I am not angry at the liberal christian's religion at all, but I'm angry at their allegiance to people who hate me.

I am an atheist. I never believed in God as a child. It didn't make a lick of sense to me. After a traumatic experience I did start to believe in God for a few years, but it was more like a mild form of psychosis, like obsessive-compulsive disorder. I wanted to believe that there was some force that really loved me out there. After I came out of the closet, I realized that the so-called beliefs I had were really just a sort of group psychotic high that I enjoyed. I realized that the whole "belief" thing was unhealthy for me.

I am a soft atheist now-- as I was for my younger years. The notion of "god" is not one that concerns me. I don't consider myself a rigorous scientific empiricist and I admit that there are things I don't know. I kind of enjoy the mystery and try to keep my mind open to learning new things about the world. But the Judeo-Christian and Islamic god seems profoundly bizarre to me personally. I have no relation to it as an origin story. It doesn't make sense to me and I don't like its ethics (slavery, stoning, crucifixion, obsession with sex as "sin"--particularly sexual women). There are also scientific ideas that strike me as misguided or at least incredibly impoverished (evolutionary psychologists who insist that all men are rapists because of the biology of the scorpion beetle, or gender scientists who claim that lesbians have shorter forefingers than straight women, or people who try to reduce "love" to biological processes).

But in the end, I don't care what people believe so long as it doesn't result in my disenfranchisement from the world (including death). I'm not a big fan of belief though. Belief means that you refuse to question any further. There are things that I believe in-- that I refuse to question, but they are few and far between.

Thanks for a great post. Thanks for taking the time to understand.

[Danger Mouse]

169. It does =)

Thanks a lot!
I would NEVER side with fundies on the issue of homosexuality. I think it's entirely ridiculous for them to get all bent out of shape over it. And their snobbish 'love the sinner, hate the sin' line is a steaming load. That's one reason I was cheering Rick Santorum's downfall...his homophobic views disgusted me to no end, especially coming out of the mouth of a U.S. Senator.
Homosexuals are still treated like garbage a lot of the time in this country, and it infuriates me.

[Zhade]

181. One slight correction: it's not a choice to not believe.

I simply CAN'T believe in things for which there is no evidence.

[Danger Mouse]

186. I addressed that point...

in an above post 'about atheism as a choice' =)
Briefly, I don't think any belief, or lack of beliefs, is a choice per se.

[NMMNG]

192. Excellent first post

I'm sorry it's too late for me to give it a recommendation.

[beam me up scottie]

193. Thank you, Elrond.

Sorry I'm late to the party, and what a wonderful first post it was.

I'll say it again, I'm glad that I met you and DU is a better place since you became a member.

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

195. Well, thanks =)

Again. :blush: I'm glad I met you too, and I'm glad I started posting on DU after years of lurking =P
I learned a lot from you. That may sound silly...but I did.
Thank you.