A question for Christian DUers...

[StraightDope]

Seriously, Christians, tell me this. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he knows in advance if a soul the He creates is going to Heaven or Hell, right?

And if he knows that he is creating tens of billions of souls that are going to be eternally damned, then God cannot be infinite love as is promulgated by Christianity.

I know what you're going to say, "God gives us Free Will!"

If that is the case, then God has no power of my actions, and thus is not omnipotent, and by definition, is not God. Or, by extension, the Christian God doesn't exist.

What would be the Christian response to this line of reasoning?

[lukasahero]

1. Actually, what I'm going to say is: see you in the R&T forum where this belongs.

:hi:

[havocmom]

2. yep

[CGrantt57]

3. Your definitions are not quite right.

Omniscient means "all knowing."

Omnipotent means "all powerful."

Omnipresent means "all over the place."

Now, God could be omniscient in the sense of sequential time, but not necessarily pre-cognitive knowledge. The two can be mutually exclusive.

God is omnipotent. That does not necessarily mean, however, that God chooses to use said powers.

Lastly, you do have free will and my exercise it in any fashion you'd like. God, by the same token, can exercise free will and let you in, or not.

See?

Regards,

[StraightDope]

7. Wait a second here...

First of all, here is "omniscient" defined:

om‧nis‧cient  /ɒmˈnɪʃənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

–noun 2. an omniscient being.

3. the Omniscient, God.

Complete or unlimited knowledge. Complete implies that linear time is not a factor here. Thus, God would indeed know prior to your creation if you were destined for Heaven or Hell.

If God does have the power to compel my actions, then free will is just an illusion. God would have knowingly created me only to be damned to hellfire and what have you. Doesn't sound like a loving God to me.

[CGrantt57]

19. Nope...nope...nope.....

There is another word for what you're talking about. That word is "prescient."

pre‧science  /ˈprɛʃəns, -iəns, ˈpriʃəns, -ʃiəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge; foresight.

Nowhere do I find any mention of God's Prescience.

You could make the argument that God is prescient, but, only then would your argument work.

I don't buy it, however. I think more along the lines of Spinoza's God.

Regards,

[Chulanowa]

28. So God doesn't know what he's going to do next?

I tell you, it really would explain the Old Testament...

I avoid the whole issue easy enough. Gods are provincial, far from omni-anything.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. You are right. God restrains 'himself' from forcing us to do things, but he

could force us if He wanted to. That's how I've always understood it.

Personally I don't believe anyone is eternally damned, so the first section of your statement doesn't apply to vision of God.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Shhhh. Just pray, brother.

[Syncronaut Seven]

6. Your going to Hell friend, Eternal damnation!

See you there! :evilgrin:

I understand true progressives have a special place at Satan's table.

Did you hear that marvelous "This American Life" on public radio this weekend?

Love it! B-)

[seabeyond]

8. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent

how/why god send self to hell. i think this alone allows hell to not be. i believe the hel that is talked about is hell on earth in how we live and the choices we make and what we create, but i believe we all are and become one in the end. now how god judges sees knows wants is all his own and certainly different from simple man. we can looka t a person and judge to be evil but since god is a part of and know the heart, what we may see as evil he may see as pain, ergo love...

a person may need to walk a certain way (free will) to receive ultimate lesson and we may see it as bad when universally it is the best. that is why judgement is not in play, we cannot unravel and know divine plan

[William769]

9. Answer.

Since you seem to be all knowing, why ask the question?

[StraightDope]

13. Well, that's a rather smart-ass reply.

Does it make you feel superior to attribute erroeous motivations to others?

[gratuitous]

10. And what if Grace really is true, or God really is love?

There are a couple of books I would recommend to you, by two authors named Gulley and Mulholland. The first is called "If Grace is True" and the second (you're probably way ahead of me) "If God is Love." They take a serious look at these questions and come up with some provocative answers, which probably can't admit to fair treatment on an internet message board. I recommend both books if you're serious about receiving an answer.

But if this is merely an attempt at Christian bashing, you may safely ignore this response and go about your life, secure in the knowledge that you whipped the believers' asses again. Congratulations.

[StraightDope]

12. No, I actually want to know how Christian theology reconciles the disparities...

I'll look into these works, time permitting. Hopefully, the local library has copies, because money is very tight right now. Thanks for passing along the info! :hi:

[EstimatedProphet]

11. It is debatable that Christ talked about people going to Hell

Hell as a punishment was really brought about by the Roman Catholic church in the Middle Ages. So, a true follower of Christ would likely not see the world the way you describe anyway.

[Euphen]

30. In the New Testament Jesus talks about hell quite a bit.

By that time belief in hell was pretty common among Jews.

[ileus]

14. God is the Devil: he's a republican right???

[Redbear]

15. I think the general response would be that "infinite love" in this context

means beyond man's capacity to understand, as opposed to all-encompassing.

Many christians do not agree with the concept of God as infinite love. Not coincidentally, those christians are the ones that most often talk about people being condemned to hell.

[rsmith6621]

16. Popcorn....Get Your Popcorn....

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Zebedeo]

17. God gives us Free Will

You already knew the answer. Maybe God wrote it on your heart. :)

"If that is the case, then God has no power of my actions, and thus is not omnipotent, and by definition, is not God."

God does have the ability to control your actions, due to His omnipotence. He simply chooses not to exercise that ability, because He prefers that you be given the ability to exercise your own Free Will. You can either accept Him or reject Him.

So your suggestion that Free Will negates the omnipotence of God is simply wrong.

Now, you might ask: "Why doesn't God make everyone do the right thing?" Because if He did, then doing the right thing would have no meaning. It is only when it comes as the result of a personal free choice that it is meaningful.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Your opening statement summarizes Calvinist theology

According to Calvin, whose theology was followed by the Puritans, God knew whether everyone was going to heaven or hell, and there was nothing you could do about it. You were either in or out, period. This was referred to as the doctrine of predestination. Its most harmful side effect was that people either assumed that they were one of the heaven-bound "elect" and could therefore do no wrong, or they feared that they were one of the damned and spent their lives in continual emotional anguish.

It also encouraged the American folk belief that rich people are favored by God.

On the whole, though, the extent to which people have free will and God has power is one of the major theological controversies and has been going for at least 2,000 years.

I'm not going to solve it for you.

My personal belief is that there's a mixture of fate and free will. We basically have free will, but there are times when, for God's larger purposes, we are pushed into a certain direction. However, we still have the option to accept or refuse that cosmic hint.

It is like a wise parent who knows when to let go and let the child make their own mistakes.

[Goblinmonger]

20. I think you are just a little off the mark of Calvinism

I'm not having a huge fit here, cut the thought of Calvin (see "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God") was not that god just KNEW whether you were going to hell or not but that god just decided on a whim. Nothing we did had any play in it. God might just "wake up" in the morning feeling a bit cheekish and toss me in the fires of hell.

The Calvinist, though they thought that actions had no bearing on your eternal reward, did think that how you acted was an indication of which way you were headed. Which made the witch trials all the easier. People freely gave up their friends, because if they were friends with someone who was a witch and protected them, it was a sign that you were destined for hell.

Tricky little bastard, that Calvinist god.

[bryant69]

21. If God has infinite love and infinite power how come things suck?

It depends on what the purpose of this life is. If the purpose is simply to create a bunch of dolts, watch them suffer and reward some of them with heaven and punish some of them with hell, well yeah, that's a cruel God.

But there are other opinions on what the purpose of life is.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[kiahzero]

22. Do you believe that an eternity of suffering for a though crime is just?

The doctrine of Hell has serious problems regardless of what the purpose of life is.

[bryant69]

24. I don't believe in a traditional hell, i.e. a realm of eternal torment

Bryant

[berniew]

23. A quick response

I haven't signed in DU for a long time but I saw this post and decided a reply was in order...

1) Yes according to the orthodox (small 'o') view God knows in advance everything that will come to pass.

2) The problem with a statement like 'infinite love' is it is hard to know what is meant by that statement. If you are saying that God loves all people equally with no distinction, then no - God is not 'infinite love.'

3) No one *really believes in free will. We all believe in free agency. The difference is that for the will to be truly 'free' it would have to be conditioned or affected by nothing at all.


The answer is first to understand the question correctly, and then second to realize that even though God knows what is going to happen in advance - that doesn't mean that He is coercing anyone into do anything against their wished.

[Sola Scriptura]

25. response

Personally, such questions are like asking how God designed the universe. He is infinite and we are finite. Man can never understand the secret counsel of God. What is is more important is to accept the grace offered through faith in Christ. In the end, whether we are in Christ or apart from Christ is all that will matter.

[jgraz]

26. You're looking for a "Christian" response to reasoning?

Good luck. Christianity is not about reason, it's about denying it.

Point out an inconvenient part of the doctrine? "Well, I don't believe in that bit"
Point out that many people believe that bit? "They aren't true followers of Christ"
Back them into a corner with logic? "God is infinite, we cannot hope to understand"

Seriously, accept their faith or don't, but trying to apply a rational argument is a losing proposition.

[More Than A Feeling]

27. Soren Kierkegaard? Is that you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard#Kierkegaard.27s_thought

I wouldn't say he's mainstream, but what you have said is by no means an unheard of position for a Christian theologian to take.

[jgraz]

29. Ha -- no, but thanks for the association!

[struggle4progress]

31. What's the point of the question? What would you expect to do with an answer?

I'm asking simply as a practical matter. Presumably one asks questions because the answer is important for some reason or other. But I don't see what practical use could be made of any answer to your question.

[knitter4democracy]

32. Wow, there's a lot of anger there.

You need a hug and a cup of tea.

:hug:

My usual response is that I'm not God and don't have all the answers. I know that's not good enough for you tonight, but that's the best I can offer. I haven't read the Book of Life, so I can't say who-all's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell. I haven't been to Heaven and interviewed God for the local paper, so I can't say what His answer would be. What we have, the Bible, is sadly imperfect since people were the ones who wrote it. All we can lean on is love and mercy.

:hug:

[JerseygirlCT]

33. My response? I don't believe any of God's creation will be

sent to hell.

All those who wish it will join God. Period.

Which will undoubtedly piss some people off, lol. But I think a loving God loves in a way so much bigger than we humans comprehend.