A Suggestion for the Christians on the Board...

[Evoman]

I see plenty of posts on DU, asking atheists questions, or asking about atheist persecution, and I got to thinking something.

Now, there is no physical characteristic that all atheists share, so if you want to understand what atheist go through, why not just become an atheist? There is no better way of understanding what another person is going through, then to walk a mile in his shoes. So here is my challenge to all DU theists:

For two weeks, pretend that you are an atheist. If you really want to do this, here are some basic rules (feel free to suggest other rules or dispute these).

1)Anytime somebody asks you about your religion, you have to say "I am an atheist". Not only "I don't believe in god or in Jesus", but you have to specifically include that you are atheist.

2)Do not go to church for two weeks. If someone asks you why, you have to say that I don't believe in god anymore, I am an atheist.

3)Do not pray for two weeks. Whenever somebody wants to pray, don't join in. If you HAVE TO PRAY, do it when no one else can see you.

4)Since many of an atheists greatest obstacles are her friends and family, you have to keep up the charade in front of your friends and family.


Why not try it out? I double dog dare any of you to do this for two weeks. At the end, or while your doing it, post your experiences here. If atheists are not really persecuted, there is nothing to be afraid of, is there?

[Dhalgren]

1. Excellent suggestion! Bravo!

[Zhade]

47. And if one can't or won't try this, do this instead:

Make a shirt that reads, simply, "I like atheists." (I mean, no one here could possibly have a problem with that).

That might give even MORE insight into how 'liked' we are.

[skipos]

2. "I don't believe... in Jesus"

But don't most people agree that Jesus the person existed? Isn't the debate is wether he was the son of God or not?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

4. Some believe that the Biblical "Jesus" is based on multiple people.

[satya]

14. Some of us note the parallels between the Jesus figure & Horus (Egyptian god born centuries earlier)

Parallels between Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God

[Finder]

31. There is no proof of his existence...

as an actual person as portrayed in the NT. Most likely the deeds and sayings of many reformers of the first century were attributed to the name Jesus as well as many myths interwoven.

Unless someone actually researched early christianity they would most likely not know this.

That is why faith is so important, the facts do not support the theology.

[goclark]

3. Since I don't ask anyone to believe in Christianity

I can't take you up on your "dare."

I know hundreds of Christians that are not interested in changing the minds of non Christians.

I respect your right to believe, not believe in whatever.

The flip side of that is that I would hope that you would respect my views.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. This would be me, too.

The "challenge" is so innately dishonest for me that I could not do it. I can't pretend not to believe something I do believe.

[Evoman]

54. I respect you just fine. This has nothing to do with your christianity.

This idea was simply to meant to foster some understanding about what atheists in certain parts of the country go through. If your not interested in doing it, then don't.

I really didn't expect anyone to do it anyways.

[MindPilot]

5. To make the experiment effective since two weeks is a short time

Wear a "Friendly Neighborhood Atheist" t-shirt. Put a Darwin fish and a "Keep Church & State Separate" bumper sticker on your car. (Make sure your insurance covers vandalism)

Write a letter to you local paper supporting the removal of "under God" from the pledge. Be sure to sign your real name.

Then you'll get a little insight into what it might be like.

[TriMetFan]

10. "Keep Church & State Separate"

Well thats funny, because I have that sticker on my car and I'm devoted Franciscan Catholic. My kids go to Catholic School, I teach Sunday School and we are at our Church from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Sundays. I believe in Peace and helping others. I believe in "Keep Church & State Separate" just like so many other Catholics that I know. What I don't like is when others are not will to have a open mind about others.

[eagler]

6. I smpathize with you and it is not right however

within the confines of this website it certainly isn't unususl for Christians and Jews to be ridiculed. Bigotry has many faces and I fear that it is present in all of us. There are good and bad Christian, Jews ,and atheists, and all others.

[Evoman]

51. Okay, but I wasn't talking about DU.

I meant pretend your Atheist out in the real world....lol..DU is nothing like the "real world".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. 1) Because it would be a lie, and I don't want to lie to my friends and

family just to prove a point or experiment, and

2) It would be like coming on to DU and saying "I may have been posting here since February 2001, but I'm actually a Republican."

Would you spend two weeks telling all your atheist friends that you had become a Christian?

A former colleague of mine actually did have a conversion experience and joined a mainstream liberal denomination. The reaction from her atheist friends was that she'd lost her mind or that she was committing an act that was unworthy of her.

It cuts both ways.

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. I agree. As a Unitarian Universalist I have seen it go both ways...

and neither way is particularly pretty.

[Dorian Gray]

30. I agree with Lydia...

I can't pretend to be an atheist, as it would be dishonest to do so.

As for the reactions from people I know, most wouldn't care. My mother isn't religious, so she wouldn't care. My father would be upset, as he's religious. My father in law wouldn't care. My mother-in-law would be horrified at the prospect, even though the last time she went to church was our wedding two years ago. She is the most critical of non-Catholics in our life, which is quite hypocritical.

I doubt any of my friends would much care, as those who are Catholic are not particularly religious. Some of my business associates might be concerned about me, as I do a lot of work with Catholic charities in New York City, but for the most part they would think it was my business.

The most upset of everyone would be my husband, and he is deeply and faithfully religious. He's honestly spiritual, and he'd be upset for my sake if I suddenly stopped believing.

I understand that there is a lot of difficulty with friends and family in coming out that you are an atheist. I know people are judgemental all the time. It is a sad state of affairs, and it sucks that some relationships might be tested because of that.

[Bill McBlueState]

8. one possible problem

I think of the Christians I used to hang out with, and I remember that in their minds, even pretending to be an atheist for any length of time would likely put them in danger of hell.

[ellacott]

9. Sometimes people just want to ask the question

If someone were a Christian they wouldn't deny their religion just because they have questions about atheism.

I have questions about skydiving. That doesn't mean I should go jump out of a plane. It might be wise to gather as much information before making that kind of decision.

Many Christians feel they can not deny Jesus, God or their Christianity even if it's just for a couple of weeks.

[jgraz]

11. there is no physical characteristic that all atheists share

So, these horns are just me then?

[exlrrp]

12. And your point is.........?

I used to be an atheist. they say there are no atheists in foxholes but I was one, as confirmed an atheist as there could be.
and now I feel different due to a lot of things I consider proof. And you have The Final And Absolute Word because.......?
I don't wear my religion on my sleeve, its a personal issue, I don't push it on anyone. I believe in the complete seperation of church and state. Why should I follow your agenda just to prove some stupid point? Are your trying to get me to see through atheists eyes because of....??--been there, done that, didn't like it--too boring and restrictive. Consider the Epitaph For An Atheist: "Aint this a bitch? all dressed up and no place to go"
If you don't like Christians just say so

[BlueEyedSon]

16. Man, if you have real objective, observable proof lets have it!

[Hissyspit]

18. Too boring????

Oh, brother...

[trotsky]

21. Boring and restrictive? Atheism??

:wtf:

[Goblinmonger]

22. Where did he intimate at all

that he did not like Christians? How do you even get that out of his post. He is just starting a thread in response to the "atheists aren't oppressed" threads that keep popping up.

If I was to gleen anything about hatred, it would be that you, for some reason, have some hatred for atheists. Your Epitaph kinda rides that offensive fence. And please let me know how atheism was "too boring and restrictive." Were our rules too much for you to follow? Was the dogma to Puritanical for you? I don't quite get either the boring or restrictive nature of something that is simply just a non-belief in any gods. Perhaps you have some issues you want to work through. As much as this is the Arena, we can listen well, too.

[sui generis]

23. sorry - that's a one way street

a real atheist might come back around to appreciating the philosophy of a faith, but to "discovering evidence" - I have to question the veracity and motive of your statement.

An atheist may soften enough to view the world through a particular philosophy, but never a believer.

Now then. There are other reasons besides personal principle to become an atheist or a true believer, none of them noble. I would suggest that some people just enjoy belonging to an exclusive club, either side, and others enjoy the feeling of being persecuted.

In your case, it sounds like you've found the grass greener a couple of times, but that's just reading between the lines of your last paragraph.

[Finder]

29. Agree. n/t

[Finder]

27. What is a "confirmed atheist"? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

28. Dude

you haven't been invited to the confirmation ritual yet? You are SO missing out. I won't ruin the surprise, but just let me tell you it involves a lot of christian-baby blood.

[papau]

44. Well said, exlrrp - but as you can see the picked on but tolerant atheists on DU don't

want you to say how you feel without their commenting on how wrong you are to feel that way, or to suggest you really don;t feel that way.

Your statement "If you don't like Christians just say so" seems to not lack for atheists wishing to say so, indeed to ridicule - and indeed to quote all the standard albeit disproved in my view atheist old chestnuts as if they were speaking truth.

At one time I thought discussion was possible - but as you can see - the attitude of the athiests toward the religious - the 94% of the US population that is not atheist per the Harris poll of a couple of weeks ago - does not even rise to the level of "tolerance."

Perhaps the OP might be interested in doing his stunt in reverse - and try posting in the DU religious forum for 2 weeks as a religious person, just so he can see how the world of DU - a democratic party/liberal/progressive site - operates if any dare discuss their religious feelings, or note that the vast majority of folks here are religious - or dares to say atheists are incorrect.

The preferred religious post in the DU Religion/Theology forum is no post. Pointing out error is pointless, as cut and paste from the 1000's of atheist sites just continues - seems that there is a need to post atheist thoughts on a political site - talk about single issue folks - I hope they actually work for the party at some point in time.

It is much like the problem Buzzflash http://www.buzzflash.com/ is having with the LaRouche "political posters" - "In Case You Do Not Know Much About the LaRouche Cult that is Trying to Hijack BuzzFlash.net with Stories That Support Its Bizarre, Anti-Semitic Claims, There are Three Stories an Alert Reader Placed on BuzzFlash.net. One of the .Net Abusers Gave up the Ghost and Invited LaRouchians and Believers that the CIA Killed JFK and RFK and that Israel was Behind 9/11 to His Website. We're Zapping Articles of the Spammers and Those Who Have Threatened to Leave the Site, But Won't." - Of course DU is atheist friendly, not that being so is a bad thing, and there is no need for anyone to leave. Indeed the other forums have only the occasional anti-religion diatribe, and serve as excellent areas to learn and exchange political information.

In any case exllrp, I liked your post.

[Evoman]

49. The OP (me) spent the better part of 2 years pretending to be

Christian, so that he could fit in with his friends and his friends Youth Group.

[Random_Australian]

55. I thought I might just drop in and call bullshit.

1) "Your statement "If you don't like Christians just say so" seems to not lack for atheists wishing to say so, indeed to ridicule - and indeed to quote all the standard albeit disproved in my view atheist old chestnuts as if they were speaking truth."

Find a post of mine where I throw out standard and disproved atheist old chestnuts.

Go on.

You make the claim, you gotta back yourself up, after all.


2) "the attitude of the athiests toward the religious - the 94% of the US population that is not atheist per the Harris poll of a couple of weeks ago - does not even rise to the level of "tolerance.""

Let me rephrase what I just heard. Because what I heard sounded a lot like

"atheists are evil reprehensible scum. They also assume things about people based on their membership to a group"

But really, I talk all the time with theists of all kinds. All of a sudden, after talking, asking and answering questions, cheering and helping out, all of a sudden I can't even tolerate people who believe in God. In other words, you're real mean.

3) "Perhaps the OP might be interested in doing his stunt in reverse - and try posting in the DU religious forum for 2 weeks as a religious person, just so he can see how the world of DU - a democratic party/liberal/progressive site - operates if any dare discuss their religious feelings, or note that the vast majority of folks here are religious - or dares to say atheists are incorrect."

OH REALLY? REALLY? YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?

HOW SURE ARE YOU ABOUT THAT?

PEEK-A-BOO!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=79553&mesg_id=79553

Try and tell me atheists stop people from talking about their religion now. Go on, I dare you.

4) "The preferred religious post in the DU Religion/Theology forum is no post. Pointing out error is pointless, as cut and paste from the 1000's of atheist sites just continues "

You've said this before. I've called you on it before, and I do again now - post something that was copy-pasted! Go on, I dare you! I mean with thousands of atheists sites bieng used, it shouldn't be hard. Not hard at all.

5) "talk about single issue folks - I hope they actually work for the party at some point in time."

Ah, the return of "atheists are evil scum and they don't respect other ways of thinking". Did you just assault someone with an outsize paintbrush? Because that looks a lot like a broadbrush attack to me.

:)

Here we go!

:D

[NMMNG]

71. Oh please!

You're one to speak of tolerance. You can't post one sentence here without your seething hatred of atheists showing through.

If you want tolerance, try showing some.

[beam me up scottie]

73. I just love the hypocrisy of R/T's only known plagiarist jeering at atheists who "cut and paste"!

:rofl:

[Zhade]

78. Yep - caught at least TWICE, lied about it, got called on it by the mods.

Some people are so blind they can't even see their own hypocrisy - like him.

[Evoman]

50. Huh? Where did that come from?

I didn't think I said anything offensive if my OP to deserve your reply. And I don't exactly why your accusing me of not liking christians....my gf is a christian, as are most of my friends.

[valerief]

15. I like the idea, but I don't think you can convince any of the flock to

take you up on the dare. Fear of god, I suspect.

[TriMetFan]

20. Well I did try this once long ago.

But like most Catholics I do think that Science is a big part of life and that God made all of it for us to learn from. Do I care if a fellow American doesn't believe in God? No! That is their right. Would I like the Church having more of a say in every day life? No! Do I try in make/convert others to become Franciscan Catholics? No! Do I care if you are white, black or some color in between? No!

The sad thing is that people like "Rev" Roberts and "Rev." Falwell have missed things up. That it is why I think it is important to fight for Separation of Church and State!

[valerief]

24. Yes, but I think the orig poster's idea was to do and see what it

FELT like, to see how people in America react to atheists, to test out the bigotry.

I agree with you that separation of church and state is necessary for a free country, and I hope to experience it before I die.

I think others would be interested to know the details about your experiment.

Most atheists know that most religious people are decent and tolerant. However, I think many religious people would be surprised to learn how many people are intolerant of atheism in America and take it as a personal affront.

[TriMetFan]

58. Will it was very simple for me....

I just turn my back on God because I just could not understand why "God" would hate me just because I was a lesbian. So I just said to hell with with all Religion. So this was not a experiment with me, it was more I just stopped believing in God. That was when I was 16. By the time my Partner and I were in our mid 30's and expecting our first child, we became Franciscan Catholics. Which was a very big and huge step for us. But with the help of our Priest, we learn that who we were was not up to us but God. Our Priest also helped us understand that Religion could be used for evil by those like Roberts and Farewell. I also do understand intolerance. That is why I believe in The Separation of Church and State. I don't care if some-one is a Atheists. That is their right. I just don't like intolerance. And this cuts both ways.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. No, fear of being considered crazy and/or dishonest

I don't worry about insulting God. God is big enough to take it.

But let's look at it this way.

Suppose, for example, that there was something that loomed very large in your life, something that you considered an important part of your identity.

Let's just say that it's something like your sexual orientation.

Now imagine yourself declaring that after all these years, you've decided that you're (the opposite of what you really are).

How would your friends and family react--especially after you told them that it was all a big joke two weeks later. They would be angry for getting them all stirred up over nothing.

For example, for those of you who are atheists, how would your atheist friends react if you told them that you had become Christian, but then two weeks later admitted that it wasn't true after all?

[Hissyspit]

17. Also, if you run for public office, say on TV and in print ads that you are an atheist

See how far you get...

[cosmik debris]

19. Remember proportionality

Putting a Darwin fish on your car may get you a taste of the dark side, but the persecution is usually proportional to the distance you stick your head out of the closet.

For example, I filed suit in Federal Court to prevent the DoD from requiring civilian employees to attend religious services on government property on the clock. I got my ass kicked so hard I had to leave town. Eight years later I returned to my home to find a lot of people who don't forgive or forget.

So your little symbolic gestures may give some insight, but to get the full effect you really need to push the envelope. You will find that the push-back is proportional.

[Democrats_win]

25. Problem in US is wingnut religion. Also it is wrong to ask us to give up religion.

I don't think that atheists would have any problems with Christians who follow the Bible. The turn-the-other cheek Christians or the "My kingdom is not of this world" Christians are the ones I'm talking about. Yet the wingnuts use the Bible to manipulate people into following their un-Christian ways. That's where athiests and Christians have common ground.

Note, what you are asking is the same thing that wingnuts ask some Christians: to give up our religion. In particular gay Christians. The author of "Wicked," Gregory Maguire, wrote a short story, "The Honorary Shepards" in which the gay characters said that they refuse to give up their religion to intolerant "christians." He mentions the "West Side Story" song, "Somewhere" there's a place for us. Whether athiest, Christian or gay, no American should give up their place in our nation or our religion.

[cosmik debris]

26. Huh? Please explain

"That's where atheists and Christians have common ground."

I don't want to jump to conclusions. That is an open-ended statement.

[trotsky]

32. "Christians who follow the Bible"

You do realize that Jerry Falwell considers himself one of those, right? And he thinks you don't follow it, and/or that you manipulate it.

Do you follow the part where it says you shouldn't be yoked with a non-believer?

What about the part where it says you shouldn't let a witch live?

[bryant69]

33. What exactly is one to learn from this experience?

Or I mean what would be your hope?

It also seems like it would be hard to perform this experiment without really pissing off your family and friends. Unless you decided, in fact, to become an atheist at the end of it I suppose.

Bryant

[Finder]

34. Why should anyone be pissed off by the personal beliefs...

or non-belief of a loved one or friend?

[bryant69]

35. Because if you are Christian and you walk away from your faith

You are not going to Heaven anymore. Particularly if you openly reject your religion. So your family and friends (assuming they shared you faith) would feel compelled to save you - would be stressed out about your decision to turn away from your God and their God.

To come back two weeks later and say "Hey it was all a sham. I never really lost my faith.", well I know how I'd react.

Bryant

[Finder]

36. And that does not seem irrational to you? n/t

[bryant69]

37. No it doesn't.

For all the respect we are supposed to give the atheist position, a little respect coming the other way wouldn't be a bad thing now and again.

If one's opinion is that there is no afterlife where one is judged based on ones action, it probably seems irrational to be concerned about the judgement of God. If on the other hand one believes that God holds us accountable for what we do, well, than it's only natural to be concerned with those who turn away from God.

Bryant

[Finder]

38. Respect is earned...

but that said, what about the respect from your family and friends...if they are pissed at you, do they still respect you?

[bryant69]

39. Let me run this out for you since you are having a hard time getting it

Step one - I deny my faith and declare myself an atheist
Family and Friends Reaction - Concern for me that I am pissing away my chance at heaven, and hurt that I am rejecting our shared culture. The Concern is noble; the hurt not as much. You might add in some guilt there too both because of my choice and also because of their reaction to my choice.

Step two - After Two weeks I reveal to my family and friends that it was all an experiment.
Family and Friends Reaction - Pissed off because I played with thier feelings by pretending to be an atheist - because they felt concern and hurt and possible guilt because of my choice.

Bryant

[Finder]

41. Well you would prob not go back...

after seeing things from an atheist pov.lol

[Goblinmonger]

59. You don't think there is a respect problem

with a group of people that will damn another group of people to an eternity of hell not because they are evil and do evil things, but just because they don't believe in your variety of god?

[bryant69]

60. That's a non-sequiter

and not worth answering.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

62. How is that a non-sequiter [sic] ?

You say there needs to be respect coming from atheists. Then, in your next post downthread, you say this about telling your family you are an "atheist":

Concern for me that I am pissing away my chance at heaven, and hurt that I am rejecting our shared culture.

I then call you on your attitude that all atheists, regardless of what they do or type of person they are, are "pissing away" their chance at heaven. If my responding to something you said is a "non-sequiter" then the "non-sequiter" was committed by you and not me. Mine is a direct response.

[bryant69]

64. Whatever

If you walk away from your religion, no matter the reason, you are presumably going to suffere some sort of consequence. IN the Christian Faith (most of them anyway), the consequence is felt in the afterlife.

Obviously if you are Atheist you have little to worry about as there's no afterlife for you to be punished in.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

65. That's a chicken shit response and you know it.

Of course I'm not worried about the afterlife. I'm worm food. What I am talking about is YOUR religion's attitude to those that don't follow the SPECIFIC rules of that sect. It seems to me to be pretty disrespectful to banish to hell all that don't follow the specific dogma regardless of that person's actions. Your religion is doing that.

[bryant69]

66. My particular religion doesn't teach a hell

And many of the ones who do believe in hell would put me there right along with you.

But yeah most religions reward you for following the dictates of that religion. And those that punish, punish you for failing to follow the dictates of that religion.

I suppose I should note that those who believe in hell, believe that it is God who makes the call not the membors of the faith.

Bryant

[Realityhack]

77. stupid question

if your religion doesn't beleive in a 'hell' what is the place other than 'heaven' that your family would be so conserned you might end up in called?

[Zhade]

67. Sounds like you're scared to examine the question.

NT!

[bryant69]

75. That's not accurate, but if it helps you to believe it, go right ahead.

[Realityhack]

76. Thats actualy prity much the point.

The whole point of the excersise is to see how much preasure is put on atheists not to be atheistic and how quickly people will treat you diffrently based on it. Perhapse even refusing to speak to you any more etc.

BTW if you family and friends would be horribly upset after you explained to them that you where trying to see what it was like to walk in someone elses shoes than I am sorry for you.

I guess you don't have to run the experiment to know what happens.

[Evoman]

52. Well, you could tell your friends and family at the end of two weeks

that you did it in order to understand what it was like to be a member of a minority group. If they are a tolerant bunch, they should forgive you right? Part of the point of my "little exercise" is to gauge what the family of an atheist would do if he came out. Imagine the reaction of your friends...now imagine that you were no longer christian FOR REAL, and you get a small taste of what many people here have been through.

[bryant69]

56. Seems like a lot of effort to go through to find out

something that's pretty obvious to start with.

Let me make another observation; wouldn't most families and friends have more or less the same reaction if I walked in and said "Ive decided that Buddhism is the way to go." For some groups even joining a different Christian Faith would be definate no - no. My point being it seems like the experience of being rejected by your kith and kin for changing your mind on religious matters isn't unique to Atheists.

Bryant

[Name removed]

57. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cyborg_jim]

40. I've often wondered what it would be like to try the opposite

[Evoman]

61. Do it.

Its eye-opening for sure...the things I heard when people thought I was one of their own. I had a christian at Youth group say something about "dirty spics" because he assumed we were all white and christian. They would talk about hating gays all the time. They would talk about hating Native Americans as well.

I sort of physically assaulted one of the assholes who said "dirty spic". Its one of the things that led me to leave that youth group (I wasn't at all christian...pretended to be, but didn't believe in that stuff at all, but I liked hanging out with kids that didn't do drugs or drink so much...to bad they were jerks).

[cyborg_jim]

70. Might be a bit different for me

Since I'm a UKer. Although living in London I am more than aware of of the nutters. Oh, and my college is next to a LDS church and I had a lovely time telling someone who was trying to covert me why they were wrong.

Given my previous anti-religious stances with my friends they'd probably be quite taken aback if I went fundamental on their asses. Which could be entertaining I suppose. :evilgrin:

[Danger Mouse]

80. Wow...

The youth groups I hung around were much nicer than that! Sleaze congregates pretty much anywhere, I suppose.

[struggle4progress]

42. Been there. Done that. Called myself an atheist for years.

Frankly, if you want to know things I've said that have gotten unpleasant reactions from members of the public, I'd rank calling myself an atheist fairly low on the list. In my experience:

In racist communities, saying that there is no such thing as race will get bad reactions. In a lot of homophobic communities, saying that gays deserve the same rights as anyone will produce accusations that you are gay, and failing to further clarify your sexual orientation may then produce weeks of name-calling. In culturally homogeneous communities that want their religion public, arguing (on religious grounds, say) against school prayer and school Bible reading will produce more of a reaction than declared atheism

[papau]

45. Very True n/t

n/t

[Alpharetta]

46. Ha Ha, #2 and #3 are easy!

2)Do not go to church for two weeks. If someone asks you why, you have to say that I don't believe in god anymore, I am an atheist.

3)Do not pray for two weeks. Whenever somebody wants to pray, don't join in. If you HAVE TO PRAY, do it when no one else can see you.

Not going to church is easy for most of us Christians. We can always find reasons not to go -- clothes wrong, too tense, someone at church made me mad, etc.

And not praying for 2 weeks? Hell there's some members at my church who I'm pretty sure haven't prayed in years!

:)

[Ron Green]

48. I was an atheist for 10 years and never experienced one instance of "persecution."

I don't see how doing this exercise would show anything.

:shrug:

[Evoman]

53. Its really a matter of where you live and how "out" you are.

How did you act when you were atheist? Again, the nice thing about being atheist is that you don't look different than anyone else, so its really not an issue unless you assert your an atheist. I bet you somebody living in the church belt would have a different experience than someone living in San Franscisco.

Since you have been an atheist, maybe you can share your story with us....tell us about your experiences as an atheist.

[Ron Green]

63. Since I had had a fairly concrete idea of "God" as a child

(I grew up in a fairly liberal church but in a VERY conservative small town in East Texas), I rejected most of that early exposure as I grew through my 20's and 30's. By the time I hit 40 I was pretty much convinced that, absent corporeal evidence for the existence of God, there is no such being. I had learned enough psychology to know that what passes for "mystical" experiences can be explained in terms of very early impressions, modified by brain chemistry and so forth. To live my life believing in things that cannot be rationally explained or proved seemed to me a shabby cop-out, especially since so many religious people around me were clearly hypocritical in their faith, or simply fooling themselves.

As I continued to study, reflect and simply live life, though, I slowly allowed back into my world view the accumulated "wisdom of the elders," acknowledging that along with the centuries of religion's fear and enmity are centuries of useful knowledge and thought, and my job as an adult in this tradition is not to reject everything, but to discover what is good and find my own way within it. As I have mentioned to you elsewhere, I consider the spiritual aspect of a human being to be equally important as the mental function and the physical embodiment, forming one part of a "trinity," if you will, that is mirrored by society's division into Church, State and Market. And our job is not to reject any of these institutions even if we could, but to make them always better and based in love rather than fear.

Anyway, about the time I turned 50 I figured out that connecting with a "higher self," whether through meditation, breathing, physical exertion or whatever, was essentially the foundation of prayer, without the supplication that had always been associated in my mind with it. A prayer of "Thanks" became my habit, rather than "Please," as I gained enough maturity to appreciate the riches of my life. The amazing thing is that, as I started to connect to a spiritual "realm" in a regular fashion, my life starting working much better than it ever had during my time of denial of such a realm. I started to understand God as something beyond personality, beyond needs or wishes or actions, and saw more clearly that religions had always been both to enslave people and to teach them, and any thinking person had to make the "hero's journey," returning home after slaying the demons of fear and ignorance. My atheism had allowed me to slay those demons, but the final step (I should say the most recent step) for me has been to return home to God, seeing him for the first time. (I use "him" out of convention, but of course there's no gender to the eternal and infinite.)

Although I don't attend any kind of church or meeting, I still hold that religion has a useful purpose in keeping the "id" of the marketplace in check. I used to think the hapless people standing out in the rain near the "adult shop" with their "Porn hurts everyone" signs were just stupid; now I appreciate their commitment to balancing the extreme market sector that harbors drugs, gambling, pornography and other pleasures of the flesh. The Church has a duty not only to help the less fortunate, it has a duty to remind us what we should and should not do, and I'm less threatened by this than I am by corporate propaganda.


To answer your original question, though, I found that during the time I was atheist I never found myself at a disadvantage because of it. I would gladly argue with evangelists or proselytizers, pretty successfully (I think) destroying their myths and ideas about how their belief system could work for me. I was no longer living in the extreme fundy town where I grew up, so I didn't really have to stay "in the closet."

[jpwhite]

69. heart of the matter

This was a nice idea but it doesn't address the heart of the matter. The biggest problem with our friends on the right (fundamentalists) is that they insist that their way is the only way. If they really understood that Buddha taught many of the same things Jesus taught but 500 years earlier, maybe they would open up their eyes. Or how about the fact that the old testment advocates slavery, and the killing of innocent women and children in the name of God. Is this something that a modern Christian would do? Of course not, but it's constantly crammed down a conservative Christian's throat that the bible is perfect and that it's the word of God. That's a shame.

We as progressives should speak up when someone (aka a fundamentalist) tries to push their religion on someone. Maybe if enough of us spoke up, this problem wouldn't be as bad as it is.

James
[e-mail]

[and-justice-for-all]

72. The only thing I experience the most...

..Is an odd look, a "Really?" and the cold shoulder from co-workers. I dont get fucked with because I will chew their face off.

[hfojvt]

74. I was an atheist for several years

probably from the age of 18 to about 27. I did not tell most of my family, except for my little sister.

Pretending to be an atheist for a couple weeks is not going to be the same thing though because
a) all the GOD-BS is not going to annoy you like it might annoy a real atheist (swearing on the Bible, In God we trust, God bless America, etc.) and
b) you will not react the same to atheist bashing that you might see or hear.

[Exiled in America]

79. I did it for six months. :)

Though I'm sad to say it really wasn't a big deal of any kind.

And I live in Idaho, reddest of red states. People asked me why I didn't go to church or why I didn't pray at certain events or when other people were praying for meals and I said either a) because I'm not a religious person or b) because I don't believe in god. A few people asked me some more questions, no one cared much at all. No one fought with me, and I suffered no negative repercussions. Of course, I didn't go into it with a martyr complex or looking to pick a fight.

Atheists talking about being persecuted is about as hyperbolic as Christians talking about being persecuted. Both groups (I am a part of neither) should stop using such ridiculous language especially in the face of REAL persecution around the world.

I should clarify and say that for six months I specifically asked questions about my non-religiosity with the answers I gave above. However, I walked away from organized religion years ago, and I no long discuss any kind of religious issues with anyone around me. Most friends assume I'm either atheist or agnostic.

[Danger Mouse]

81. An interesting suggestion...

...but I'm a Sunday school teacher. It would really mess things up if I said suddenly, 'can't do it anymore, i'm an atheist now!' then two weeks later said 'Just kidding.'
I guess most of all, I think it would hurt/confuse the kids...which I would never want to do.
In any case, I like the 'If you HAVE TO PRAY' line, lol...I wonder how many Christians honestly do pray? I'd wager not that many. I only pray at night, before I go to sleep, and in that case, it's much more conversational.
I don't like formal prayer as a means of communication. If God's listening, why can't I just talk to him? I like it better that way, and stupid as it may sounds, I find that much more comforting than prayer.