NBA: East vs West

[lazarus]

The biggest problem in the NBA this year, as it was last year, is the chasm in quality between East and West.

Only two East teams would qualify for the playoffs if they were in the West.

Only 4 Eastern teams have a .500 or better record against the West.
Only 5 Western teams have a losing record against the East.

Something's gotta be done.

I also think this has been going on for a long, long time. Think about it. When Jordan retired the first time, a Western team won both championships. Since Jordan retired, only one Eastern team has won a championship, and that was in large part due to a complete meltdown by the Lakers.

I think the mindset in the East during the Jordan years was "playing for second place", and they haven't recovered from that. Also, the East is so wide open virtually anyone can make the playoffs (with a losing record, even) and possibly the Finals. So teams aren't willing to wait and build; they see the possible revenue from a playoff run and jump for it. Coaches and GMs who can't make the playoffs in the East are fired.

So they all settle for mediocrity. Last year, 4 teams at or below .500 made the playoffs in the East. Two teams at or below .500 weren't able to make the playoffs in the West. (One of them, Utah, would have been tied with Miami for 4th place. A non-playoff team in the West would have tied for a homecourt slot in the East.)

Owners and fans in the East need to realise that a slow rebuilding is necessary. That's the only way to avoid things like what Isaiah Thomas is doing to the Knicks. That franchise won't be any good for at least 4 or 5 more years, if not longer.

Look at the coaching changes in the East. Not a single coach in the East had his job 18 months ago, IIRC.

Compare that with teams out West. Jerry Sloan. Gregg Popovich. Rick Adelman. Flip Saunders.

Consistency helps. The coach is coaching out of fear, trying to squeeze one more win regardless of what it does to his players.

A key example of this: Flashback to the 2000 playoffs. Grant Hill and Tim Duncan are both injured. Popovich refuses to allow Duncan to play again, even though Duncan was a free agent and we could win without him. Detroit (can't remember the coach right now) let Grant Hill play on an injured ankle. 5 operations and nearly 5 years later, Grant Hill is playing again, but not quite at the same level. Tim Duncan has two MVPs and a ring in the same time frame.

Popovich knew he'd still have a job even if they went out in the playoffs. Doug Collins (I just looked it up) was a first year coach with no job security.

Player continuity is improving (note the quality teams always bring back a core of good players, instead of constantly shifting pieces around one star). But coaching continuity needs to improve as well.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. it all comes down to drafting and luck

1997 - Spurs got the first pick - Tim Duncan
1997 - 76ers got the second pick - Keith Van Horn

1998 - Mavs draft Robert Traylor with their first pick
1998 - Bucks draft Dirk Novitski with their first pick

the two teams trade, and the rest is history

1999 - Raptors have the 5th pick in the draft - take Jonathan Bender
1999 - The Jazz, 19 picks later, take Andrei Kirilenko

2000 - Celtics, with the 11th pick, take Jerome Moiso
2000 - Sonics, six picks later, take Desmon Mason

2001 - Wizards got the first pick - took Kwame Brown
2001 - Bulls had the 2nd and 4th picks - took Chandler and Curry

2002 - Rockets got the first pick - Yao Ming
2002 - Bulls got the second pick - Jay Williams

2003 - Detroit got the second pick - Darko Milicic
2003 - Nuggets got the third pick - Carmello Anthony

[lazarus]

2. So, for that past 15 years

the East has been unlucky?

I think they've been horribly mismanaged and miscoached.

the GMs are the ones who pick the draft. Just look at what San Antonio has done. Other than the Duncan pick, here's the core of the team:

Tony Parker: Drafted late first round
Manu Ginobili: Second round
Rasho Nesterovic: free agent signing
Malik Rose: free agent signing, originally late draft
Devin Brown: undrafted, signed as a free agent
Beno Udrih: late first round.

the picks are there. Who's fault is it when the Eastern GMs don't make the right picks?

Not a single player besides Duncan is a lottery pick.

In 2001, Washington passed up Pau Gasol to take Kwame Brown.
Philly picked Jerry Stackhouse ahead of Kevin Garnett (Granted, three other teams passed on him, too)

Milwaukee picks Glenn Robinson instead of Jason Kidd or Grant Hill.

Just a series of horrible decisions. Coaches don't need to be fired, GMs do.

[catzies]

3. But Andrei had to stay in Russia and play out his contract

And 24th was one of the better 1st round picks they had in a generation, order-wise. Making the playoffs for a generation meant the Jazz were never in the lottery. They never had a chance at that kind of talent. And luck? Fuggedabout it.

I'm pretty sure we waited for AK two years, at least. Don't make me look it up in my Media Guides.


on edit: AK was the 24th pick in '99, showed up to play in the '01-'02 season. Thank you, Media Guide.

[lazarus]

6. Same with Manu

We drafted him back in '99, 2 years to get him.

We drafted Luis Scola (another Argentine player) a couple of years ago; he'll be joining the Spurs next year replacing Robert Horry. Great big man.

[WilliamPitt]

4. East = death

This is why I haven't bothered with the NBA for 6 years. Win the Eastern title, and get destroyed by the team from the West. Last year's championship was a shocker, simply because an Eastern team got one.

[lazarus]

7. helped that the soap opera in LA fell apart

That's the only reason Detroit won.

I think David Stern should just fire all the GMs in the East.

[FrankBooth]

5. And the sad thing is the West is down too

Definitely stronger than the East, but not what it was 2 or 3 years ago.

[kaitykaity]

8. I'm sorry to say, but the NBA as a sport has seen

better days.

The players are spoiled brats who act like babies when
they don't get their way. It seems like the whole league
has started to pattern itself on the Rasheed Wallace model
of player behavior.

That fight with the Detroit players and the fans earlier
this season said all that needs to be said about the health
of the sport itself.

Not even the romance of a Kobe-Shaq showdwon on Christmas
Day has any pizzazz anymore.

[lazarus]

9. Nah

It's just a few of them.

Entire teams go the whole season without any problems like this. It's just a few malcontents that make the rest of the league look bad.

Things were much worse just before Bird and Magic entered the league. I remember when the Finals were tape delayed and shown at night after the local news!

As for the fight earlier, that was a "perfect storm" of events that had a bunch of people to blame. Any of a number of things could have happened to prevent it, and none of them did.

One incident isn't enough.

The league does need to make a couple of changes. Alter the focus of the league from questionable superstars like Kobe and Garnett (who has punched teammates in practise). Focus more on the good, "boring" players. Or even the good exciting players. Lebron is a good start.

Arenas need to alter their practises. Stop with the constant drumbeat of noise. I went to a game recently, and there wasn't a single second that didn't have noise or activity of some kind.

I've read a theory that this contributed to the Brawl. Constant input like that can help egg on the mob mentality by pulling you out of yourself and getting you focused on everything around you.

At a game, the instant a timeout is called, cheerleaders (dancers, actually) hit the floor with pounding music. Between quarters, you have contests and dot races and crap. Entertainment at halftime. Then more of the same.

All the while vendors are hawking beer. Maybe if you had to get up and go get your $7 beer, you wouldn't drink so much, but they'll bring it right to you.

Then they're stunned that drunken fans act rowdy. :eyes:

[kaitykaity]

10. Kevin Garnett was at one time one of my favorite players

strangely enough. He did an interview with Tim Duncan on
NBC during the playoffs one year about their respective pets.

Int to TD: What do you do on the offseason?
TD: Play with my dogs.
Int: What kind of dogs?
TD: I have two golden retrievers.
KG: (Laughs). Those aren't dogs.
Int: And you have?
KG: I have nine dogs. Three doberman pinchers, two pit bulls,
and four mastiffs.
TD: Don't run out of meat, man.

lol.

I've been suffering with this current form of NBA malaise for a
long time thanks to Rasheed, and I think pretty soon there are going
to be more people out there like me than like you. You after all
still are a fan of one of the teams of "good guys."

It isn't just one incident. You think that Rasheed throwing
a towel in Arvydas Sabonis' face didn't make it's way onto all
of the lowlight reels?

Or even though the charges got dropped against Kobe that the
debauchery of the lifestyles of most of these players didn't leak
out for the buying public to see?

Slightly OT:

I'm also thinking about the Nascar phenomenon. You know,
where white people would rather go and sit and watch weird-looking
cars go around and around in a circle really fast? These "folks"
watch Nascar so they can be with their "own kind" and not have to
watch black people do anything or be around black people for any
reason.

It's really quite startling when you look at it from that
perspective.

[lazarus]

11. I dunno

I do think race has something to do with it, in a way, except...

White folks didn't have a problem with Tiger Woods, and ratings went up.

Maybe it's the hip-hop style that the NBA decided to adopt a while back. They thought they were getting Will Smith and LL Cool J, but they forgot they were getting Suge and Snoop and the whole east coast/west coast gangsta thing, too.

It's also changing with the influx of foreign players. Oddly enough, that's another one the Spurs are leading in. 7 foreign players, 4 of them starters. Only one other team has as many foreigners on the roster.

I think it may be cultural rather than racial, though. After all, baseball players are even richer, and nobody doubts they have a party lifestyle. And now MLB is embroiled in a drug scandal that could taint every record over the past 10 years.

But the NBA is in bigger trouble because of a brawl? What's up with that?

[kaitykaity]

12. Cultural, racial, what's the difference?

Tiger is an interesting anomaly, that's for sure. There's
a huge difference between this kid who's Asian, Native American,
black, and white in a sport that's lily white and who shakes
things up and a bunch of guys who could give a rat's ass about
what the fans think just so long as an owner "cuts the check."
(Yep, that would be a Rahseed-ism.)

It definitely does have something do with the hip-hop style.
It's "urban" and definitely cuts out people who don't get it.
(Like me for instance. I love rap-rock because of the metal
crunch, but I can't listen to more than a few minutes of rap
at a time. It all sounds the same to me.)

You need to start another thread about the MLB steriods deal.
I'd have a few things to say about it, but that's a whole
'nother argument to have.

:evilgrin:

[lazarus]

13. big difference, actually

cultural has nothing to do with race. I don't mind the hip-hop music, for instance. Some rap I really like. I don't have a problem with anybody's race at all.

But I don't like the culture of hip-hop. Whether it's whites or blacks or asians, I just don't like it. I don't mind it, that much. IOW, I don't actively dislike it. It's just not a culture I'm fond of.

I hate mariachi bands, too. :D

[kaitykaity]

14. You could differentiate it that way and be right I suppose.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that that culture
came out of urban, African American populations. The white,
Asian, whoevers just came along for the ride.

I don't have a problem with anybody's race either. But for people
who do, the culture and the attitude of the players as a great
excuse to wallow in it.

It's kind of like criticizing Israel. Seems like you can't utter
a word of criticism of Israeli policy and not be accused of being
anti-Semitic...

[lazarus]

15. I just posted this area of discussion in a different thread, btw

:hi:

[kaitykaity]

16. Okay. Fine.

Thread? Link?

BRAT!

[lazarus]

17. d'oh!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=215x2063