Jones vs Trinidad

[H2O Man]

FRIDAY - at Key West, Florida (ESPN2) - 10 rounds,
middleweights: Raymond Joval (37-4, 16 KOs)
vs. Tarvis Simms (21-0-1, 11 KOs); 10 rounds, junior
welterweights: Randall Bailey (35-6, 32 KOs) vs.
Anthony Mora (15-1, 10 KOs).


SATURDAY - at Dusseldorf, Germany - 12 rounds,
WBA heavyweight title: Ruslan Chagaev
(23-0-1, 17 KOs) vs. Matt Skelton (21-1, 18 KOs);
12 rounds, heavyweights: Taras Bidenko (24-2, 12 KOs)
vs. Cisse Salif (22-8-2, 20 KOs).


SATURDAY - New York (HBO PPV) - 12 rounds,
light heavyweights: Roy Jones Jr. (51-4, 38 KOs) vs.
Felix Trinidad (42-2, 35 KOs); 12 rounds, IBF light
middleweight title: Cory Spinks (36-4, 11 KOs) vs.
Verno Phillips (41-10-1, 21 KOs); 12 rounds, heavyweights:
Andrew Golota (40-6-1, 33 KOs) vs. Mike Mollo (19-1, 12 KOs);
12 rounds, light middleweights: Roman Karmazin
(36-2-1, 23 KOs) vs. Alex Bunema (28-5-2, 14 KOs);
10 rounds, junior welterweights: Devon Alexander
(13-0, 8 KOs) vs. Miguel Callist (24-6-1, 17 KOs).


This is a strange week for the sport of boxing. The ESPN FNF card is solid on paper, with two good fights. The heavyweight card scheduled in Germany is important, though it is overlooked by the American media. Chagaev is a talented, exciting fighter, and he is someone who could make US sports fans to take notice of the heavyweight division. The undercard includes two other heavyweight fights, not listed above, featuring four undefeated young heavyweights, all with high KO percentages. It is the type of card that would be popular in the US, but because the main event features a Russian "champion" defending against an English challenger, it is largely ignored.

Instead, there is a PPV Don King production that I think is wrong in so many ways: Roy Jones Jr versus Felix Tito Trinidad. Felix was a great fighter in his prime, and peaked in 1999 when he defeated Oscar de la Hoya. He was the best welterweight and jr. middleweight of his day. He could beat the B level middleweights, but could not handle the top level at that weight. He has lost 2 of his last 4 fights, and both were one-sided loses (B-Hop in '01, and Winky Wright in '05). He has not fought in over two and a half years.

He is moving up to fight at 170 pounds, against Roy Jones, Jr., who has lost 3 of his last 5 fights. Roy was a good middleweight and a great super middleweight and light heavyweight champion. He even moved up in weight and decisioned heavyweight journeyman contender John Ruiz in 2003, to win the WBA "title." In the past two years, Roy has defeated two relatively inexperienced contenders who posed no more risk to him that the round card girls.

Jones' career has three distinct phases: the first, where he fought against the best competition, and looked great; the second phase, after his friend Gerald McClellan was seriously injured in the ring against the larger Nigel Benn in '95, where Roy picked "safe" fights; and the fights since Ruiz, which only take away from his legend.

Roy has to be ranked in the top 10 of the greatest light heavyweights. But there is nothing that he can do now to add to his place in history. He should KO Tito in four rounds or less. It will be as meaningless as if he were to fight Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello next. And if by some freak chance he loses, that will also be insignificant in terms of his prior status.

This card shows that Don King will do anything for money.

[bigwillq]

1. Come on Tito!

:bounce:

I didn't know Tito was fighting..first time I heard about it was about 10 days ago. I use to love Tito. He is way past his prime though and I don't expect him to win although I will be rooting for him!

[cboy4]

2. Is Trinidad going to beat the hell out of Jerry Jones?

:bounce:

[IndianaJones]

3. the first phase of Jones career you speak of was the best fighter I have seen.

The later Jones has saddened me.

[H2O Man]

4. I think he

could be listed in the top 10 light heavyweight greats.

[IndianaJones]

5. I think your analysis is right on...you could see how much he avoided...

any risk. He often talked about not wanting to get injured. Ironic that it lead to some vicous knockouts by subpar competition.

[H2O Man]

6. Right.

Two guys who should never be considered in the same class as Roy. He hurt himself by moving up to fight John Ruiz. It's one thing to beat a slow heavyweight contender who averaged 14 punches a round in many fights. It's quite another to then try to drop back down to light heavyweight. It robbed him of some of the things that had made him a superior fighter.

I think that one can give serious consideration to how Roy would have fought the very best light heavyweights: Ezzard Charles (who didn't win the title due to circumstances beyond his control), Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Harold Johnson, and Bob Foster. The two fellows who beat Roy could best be viewed as sparring partners for those guys.

[Awsi Dooger]

18. He certainly was a helluva lot better than merely a top 10 light heavy

In fact, that's laughable, IMO. For years Jones had by far the best rounds won to rounds fought ratio in boxing history. And it wasn't even close. I worked for a stats company and we kept track of it. It was something like 10-15% better than any major boxer in history, through Jones' prime. But naturally the mainstream media never mentioned it. It was scary how few rounds he lost, even during the early part of his career when he was fighting every logical opponent including Hopkins and Toney.

I attended Jones/Toney in '94 at the MGM and it was scary dominance. The late losses have tarnished Jones' reputation but the fighter I saw that night was the best I've ever seen in person, and I've been to dozens of mega fights in Las Vegas since the mid '80s.

And light heavy wasn't even Jones' best weight class. He was really a bloated super middleweight. If the competition had been top notch in that weight class he would have stayed there and been even more dominant. Jones always sacrificed height and reach and natural size of frame at light heavy. But even against the other light heavys mentioned I'd take Jones in his prime and love my chances. He simply had far superior athletic ability to those guys, and that's a huge trump card in athletics. Styles are nice; fun to speculate about; but give me the better athlete and a guy who never got hit and I'll come out far ahead long term, even in so-called upsets.

Jones was a speed fighter who got old. Nothing mysterious about it. The mid 30s kill speed. I remember Sugar Ray Leonard saying he wasn't worried about coming out of a long "retirement" to fight Hagler. "Not at 30. At 35, I'd worry." He was exactly right, then he ignored his own astute handicapping by sticking around too long for occasional bouts.

I hoped Jones would be the rare athlete to retire early, but there's so little chance of that. He never should have taken the rematch against Tarver, who had natural advantages over him and was a late bloomer. There was no reason for Jones to take the rematch. That's what always bugged me. He clearly defeated Tarver in the first meeting. Judge it round by round as Boxer A against Boxer B and Jones wins with only moderate dispute, maybe 7-5 or even 8-4. It only gained notoriety and controversy because it was Jones' most competitive fight in more than a decade.

Last night was more or less what I expected. Old speed fighters don't knock out anybody with heart and ability so a Jones decision was the logical result. What I remember about Jones/Trinidad is it was supposed to happen about 6 years ago, before Hopkins destroyed Trinidad. They already had Jones/Trinidad odds in Las Vegas before the loss to Hopkins. An "if it goes within 12 months" type of wager. I gave -150 (ratio of 15 to win 10) on Jones and it felt like grand theft. But then the Trinidad loss to Hopkins eliminated the fight and I had to wait nearly a year for a mere refund.

[TroubleMan]

7. I'm watching the Senior Boxing League tonight.

I'd be very surprised if Roy Jones loses. However, both are washed up at this point, so who knows?

[H2O Man]

8. Roy has been active,

Tito has been off a long time. He has only had three fights since September '01. He has slowed down, and Roy has always had fast hands and foot movement. But, most important, Tito has never beat a top middleweight.

Still, Tito has always had a curious confidence he could take Roy, ever since hebeat Oscar.

These are two warriors I really enjoyed in their primes. Sad that they are still getting into the ring.

I hope you will let us know what happens, and what you think of the undercard and main event.

[sandnsea]

9. Has Jones always been that loopy?

I don't remember him being so... out there. What was that rant after the fight?

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

11. I didn't buy it.

I saw some end-of-the-round reports, but didn't see Roy. What was he saying?

I used to have a lot of respect for him .... not just his skills in the ring, but because he seemed like a good guy. But decisioning Tito at this point has to be viewed as unimpressive.

[sandnsea]

13. It was wild, in my mind

I'm used to him having a bit of bravado, but not wild. His face looked very tight, gaunt, to me. And he was really really loud, he's 169 lb heavy weight and it is the power of God, and on and on. It's just not what I remember of him. I didn't watch the fight closely. My husband said Tito needs to go back to middleweight. He's never been a big Jones fan, I don't know why. He likes underdogs. We split the cost of the fight up, we could never afford it otherwise.

[H2O Man]

16. Tito

has not been at the top level since moving up from jr middleweight. He has beat one C grade middleweight (Joppy) and a B- grade jr middleweigh who moved up unsuccessfully (Mayorga). Since 1999, he has fought about twice as much as Roberto Duran, and retired twice as often. Jones deserves no more credit for beating Tito than he would for getting a decision over Duran. What is really a shame is that a parasite like Don King can sell things like this .... though I must admit that as the afternoon turned to evening, I was thinking about watching it.

I hope they both retire. Roy seems to think he can fight Joe Calzaghe, which is as delusional as Tito believing he'd beat Roy. There is an ugly side to the sport.

It looks like Oscar plans a tune-up on HBO in May, then a return match with Floyd. I think he should fight Cotto. Oscar could beat Cotto, in my opinion. I think he'd TKO Cotto in 8 rounds.

[TroubleMan]

10. Tito's power did not translate at all to this weight.

Jones was walking right through him. Jones was blocking a large majority of Trinidad's punches, but those that did get through didn't phase him a bit. After the 4th round it looked like Jones could have KO'd him and anytime, but he basically refused to crank up the heat for more than a minute or two at a time.

To be fair Trinidad looked fresh and determined, but it was in a hopeless effort. First of all a guy like Roy Jones is a horrible style match up for him, even with all other things being equal. Add to that he was just too small and too slow to do anything at all to Jones. Jones had a considerable hand speed advantage, and it was obvious during the 30 seconds to one minute of every round he decided to use it.

On the undercard I got to see the old Foul Pole again. Golota actually out-gutted his opponent tonight, which is extremely surprising. He also fought a smart game. Golota's body shots had Mollo completely gassed in the 6th round, and Mollo never caught his second wind. Mollo was game too and was running pure heart for 5-6 rounds. I don't know how he stayed standing. Golota's left eye was completely closed for about half the fight, but unlike the Golota in previous years, he didn't call it quits or low blow himself into a DQ. It's funny that the commentators are saying that Golota might actually have a shot at one of the "titles" - how weak can the heavyweight division get? The old Foul Pole still has a good jab, good power, and a pretty good chin, so with him actually not fouling or quitting....you never know.

[H2O Man]

12. Golota

was usually his own worst enemy. He beat Chris Byrd, but was given a draw. (Not that Byrd had a real "title.")

Roy should have TKOed Tito. It's too bad either is still fighting. I think Tommy Hearns could come back and KO Roy.

[TroubleMan]

14. Roy could have KO'd Tito.....it seems he chose not to.

I don't know if he was just playing extra safe, trying to get in some rounds, or what. He could have moved in for the kill at anytime, but it seems he just didn't want to.

[H2O Man]

15. He reportedly

entered the fight with a sore left arm, which reduced his ability to throw hard left hooks. I'm curious if that fits with what you saw? If true, it could explain his failure to go after Tito as he should have. Of course, Roy has become known for playing it safe.

[TroubleMan]

17. That sounds about right.

He only fought in 30 second to two minute spurts - enough to show he was a better fighter and enough to win rounds. If he was injured somewhat I could see that.