The great Craig Biggio/Jeff Bagwell Hall of Fame Poll

[jandrok]

Ok, it's time to get opinion from baseball fans here on DU. The raw question: do Biggio or Bagwell have a chance to be voted into the Baseball HOF, or do these two players retire with great, but not HOF-worthy careers?

My biased opinion as a lifelong Astro's fan is a simple HELL YEAH! for both of them, but like I said, that's clearly a biased opinion. I need to get the story from baseball fans from other areas of the country. Give it to me straight, I can take an honest answer either way.

My reasons? They both have the numbers, they both have the years, and they both have always played the game the right way. The rap about no production in the playoffs was erased last year. They've been the face of Houston baseball during it's glory years, and I say that they're both bound for Cooperstown.

Whay say you?

[smiley_glad_hands]

1. Go Stro's......Wooohooooo!

Stro's fan that will follow the Nat'ls too (cuz I live in VA).

[tx_dem41]

2. I've been a 'Stros fan for 35 years, and I love both Bags and Biggio...

...but I don't think either gets in. Bags is closer to a borderline case, than Biggio. If he can hang on with two more decent years and throw in a World Series ring, then we can reopen the debate.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. I'm one of those who say hold on until they hang 'em up

Bagwell has some good numbers:

14 seasons:
Batting avergage: .297
Home Runs: 446
RBIs: 1510
Slugging Pct: .542

His chances look very good.

Biggio less so:

17 seasons:
Batting average: .286
Home Runs: 234
RBIs: 994

Those aren't HoF numbers.

[jandrok]

4. Biggio is very close to Ryne Sandberg's numbers....

Those ARE HOF numbers for a 2nd baseman. Keep in mind that Biggio played 2nd base for the majority of his career. His numbers compare very favorably to Sandberg's, and if he's in, then how do you keep Biggio out?

Sandberg:

Batting avg: 285

Homers: 282

RBI's: 1061

[LSdemocrat]

11. Actually Sandberg has not been elected to the hall

He's actually failed to get in the past two years.

[jandrok]

14. Wrong - Sandberg is in this year's class

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/includes/2005_Inductees/inductees_sandberg.htm

[PDittie]

6. Biggio is a HOF-er for the following reasons:

-- Biggio is the only player ever to be named to All Star teams both as a catcher (1991) and as a second baseman (1992).

-- In 1997 he became only the third player in major league history to go through an entire season (minimum 150 games) without hitting into a double play. Previously, only the Cubs' Augie Galan in 1935 and the Tigers' Dick McAuliffe in 1968 had avoided the twin killing for an entire season. Biggio played in more games than both, all 162.

-- Also in 1997, Biggio scored 146 runs, and in doing so scored more runs than anybody in the NL since the Phillies' Chuck Klein touched home 152 times way back in 1932.

-- Biggio joined Hall-of-Famer Tris Speaker in 1998 as the only members of the 50/50 club: having hit 50 doubles and having stolen 50 bases in a single season. In 1999, he became only the sixth player in major league history to have back-to-back 50 double seasons.

-- He has more than 2,500 career hits and four Gold Gloves. He has been on seven NL All-Star teams and holds the NL records for career leadoff home runs and number of times hit by a pitch.

-- He is one of five players -- with Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Paul Molitor and Rickey Henderson, HOF-ers all -- to record 2,400 hits, 200 homers, 500 doubles, 300 steals and 1,000 walks.

[smiley_glad_hands]

5. They should get in before the roiders.

As far as I'm concerned Bonds, McGuire,Giambi's,Conseco & Sosa should have aterisks by their name and Maris should still be considered the leader. IMHO

[PDittie]

7. I voted "Hell yeah", but

they won't be first-ballot inductees. They'll both have to wait a few years.

No way they don't get in, though. And they both deserve to.

[jandrok]

8. I really liked your reasoning for Biggio earlier in the thread....

And you may indeed be right. Neither may get in on the first ballot, BUT they both deserve to be inducted. Bagwell has a good shot at first-ballot if he can break the 500-homer barrier. He's at 446 now, with two years to play under his current contract, which he says he will honor. With that much time, 500 home runs is realistic.

Bidge has some eye-popping stats as you mentioned earlier, but he lacks the power numbers that seem to get voter's attention.

[PDittie]

9. People just don't appreciate

what Biggio has done in his career.

There's really been no other player like him for at least the past 60 or 70 years. He's a true throwback. Maybe Pete Rose...

And Charley Hustle's tribulations in getting in to the Hall (I'm one of those, obviously, who thinks he ought to already be there) are an example of why it will be tough for Bagwell and Biggio to get in. They will be -- indeed, are being -- judged on the basis of their playoff success (more specifically the lack thereof). Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Which raises the question of why gambling is a worse sin (as it relates to HOF entry) than drug or steroid use. Barry Bonds will be in Cooperstown; the same reporters who despise the guy will vote him in on the first ballot. He hasn't won a title -- yet. What would he have accomplished were it not for the body-altering substances he ingested over the years? Would 73 have happened had he not "creamed" and "cleared" his way to two extra hat sizes? Speculation, to be sure; still...

Honoring players like Bags and Bidge would go a long way toward setting the right example for younger players and kids and all that.

(Shit, I sound like a fucking family-values Republican now...)

[LSdemocrat]

10. As a Cardinals fan, I say let Bagwell in, Biggio would be a strech

Bagwell in his prime was a force to deal with over a long period of time, clearly a dominant player of the 1990's.

I just can't say the same of Biggio. I don't think I would ever call Biggio a dominant player. His chances are hurt since he's changed positions multiple times. While Biggio is an all around consistent very good/excellent player, that's not just enough to make it into the Hall of Fame. I'd honestly put him in the same class of players that will just miss the hall.

[jandrok]

12. I can appreciate that viewpoint, even if I politely disagree....

I know an awful lot of people who think along those same lines. But then I have to look at the whole career, and PDittie brought some really great stats to the table earlier in the thread that support Biggio as a statistical anomaly. Bidge does suffer somewhat from having switched positions three times in his career(with a move back to 2nd base now looking more likely this year), but overall the numbers are there. People keep looking for that ONE big defining statistic with Biggio, but if you look at ALL of his numbers in a historical context, he's done some amazing stuff.

Good to hear from a Cardinals fan. I have a real love/hate thing with you guys. On the one hand, I love the way your team plays and represents the game. Your club is rich in tradition and history, and your players are nothing but class acts. On the other hand, watching Jim Edmonds hit that walk-off in game 6 last year was pure HELL!!!! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!

I'll wish you guys a friendly "good luck" as we start Spring Training! Man, I can't wait for Opening Day!

[PDittie]

13. Why should changing positions hurt his chances?

Shouldn't that help his chances?

How many other players went to the All-Star game at catcher and 2nd base?

How many players went to the All-Star game at two different positions? (Let's eliminate outfield positions.)

Pete Rose? Who else? Go ahead; I'll wait...

How many guys in the 50/50 club again? And the other one's in the Hall, right?

Leads the National League in career leadoff HRs (only Rickey in the AL has more -- he's a HOF-er)and HBP.

He went an ENTIRE SEASON with hitting into a DP.

One of a group of six with his combined career stats, and all the others are in (or will be in)...

Just explain to me why you think Barry Bonds deserves it unquestioningly and Biggio doesn't. That "good, not great" argument doesn't hold water when you look at the numbers.

(See, this is the kind of disrespect I'm talkin' about. Apparently not even posting the information is enough. The little man faces bias. I think it can be overcome, but it's a shame there's even a debate.)

[jandrok]

15. kick (n/t)

[PDittie]

16. Biggio tied Ted Williams in career hits today

...and Biggio did so in 17 seasons, versus 19 for the Splendid Splinter:

If Craig Biggio gets hit and killed by a bus after the game today in Cincinnati, he can go to his reward satisfied that he tied Ted Williams at #63 on the Major League Baseball all-time career hit list.

<snip>

Biggio's single on Sunday gives him 2,654 base hits, which he's gathered during a 17-year career that likely will continue a year or two after this season. Williams played 19 seasons.

The fact Biggio started out as a catcher, moved to second base, then moved to the outfield, and now has returned to second base only adds to his impressive hitting resume'.

Other names you might recognize on the all-time hit list that are within Biggio's reach are: Nellie Fox (who ended his career with Houston), 2,663 hits; Luis Aparicio, 2,677; Billy Williams, 2,711; Rusty Staub (who started his career with Houston), 2716; Lou Gehrig, 2,721, and Babe Ruth, 2,873.

Banjo Jones

Still think he doesn't deserve the HOF?

[Dave Sund]

17. Bill James says Biggio's a sure-fire Hall of Famer

That's good enough for me. Unfortunately, Mr. James doesn't have a vote in HOF balloting.

[PDittie]

18. Bagwell, Biggio reach milestones in tonight's game

In the first inning of the Astros-Pirates game tonight at Minute Maid Park, Craig Biggio stole his 400th career base and Jeff Bagwell drew his 1,400th career walk.

Biggio is the second Astro to steal 400 bases. Biggio also joins Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, and Paul Molitor as the only players to reach all of the following milestones: 400 steals, 1,000 RBI, 225 home runs, 1,500 runs, 1,000 walks, 1,000 RBI, 2,600 hits, and 500 doubles.

Bagwell is the first Astro and the 24th player in MLB history to draw 1,400 walks. Bagwell also joins Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, and Barry Bonds as the only players to reach all of the following milestones: 1,400 walks, 400 home runs, 2,300 hits, 1,500 runs, 1,500 RBI, and 200 stolen bases.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3164719