Stanley Cup stops at PNC Park

[Upton]

The pregame ceremony honoring the Penguins and featuring coach Dan Bylsma along with 16 players, drew 27,565 fans to today's Pirates/Tigers game, including almost 6000 walkups.... needless to say almost unheard of at attention starved PNC Park.

Furthermore, the crowd for the 3 game series with Detroit totaled 77,345, pushing Pittsburgh up past the Marlins and dropping 3 time defending champion Florida into it's accustomed position of last place in MLB attendance.

[SteelPenguin]

1. Lotta Detroit fans

Lots of people drove down from Michigan and in from Ohio who are Tigers fans to come to the games for the weekend.

The walkups were hockey fans though.

[Upton]

2. Then that helps explain

the unusually high weekend attendance figures. The Pirates averaged some 25,782 per game for the 3 game series...unusually high for the Pirates.

Obviously the combination of the Stanley Cup on Sunday, plus Detroit fans and giving stuff away helped boost those figures.

[SteelPenguin]

3. The weather was also nice

Pirates attendance varys signficantly with the weather because it's something people do when it's nice out (on par with going to a park, or for a bike ride) and those people will also buy tickets online generally so they're not considered 'walkups' even if they bought them earlier that day.

But yeah. Tigers fans, Stanley Cup, Nice weather = good numbers. I think there may have been fireworks on Friday night too. Those always get bigger numbers.

[cboy4]

5. So serious question .. Do you think it's only the Pirates attendance that

varies "significantly" with weather, or do people in other cities have the option of going to the park or bike riding?

I mean here, people also have the option of heading over to the wine country and going to the ocean.

Anyway, just bringing it up, because I hear the weather thrown around a lot when it's not exactly toasty at the start of most Giants (and even A's) games.

[SteelPenguin]

7. I think it's universal, but...

...you see it more in low attendance teams.

For instance with competitive teams, lets say the Red Sox because I lived in Boston for awhile and I'm familiar with that team and town dynamic, weather doesn't come into play as much. Most games will be sold out no matter what, and if people are going to go to a game they plan it ahead of time. When tickets go on sale, they look up the games they want to go to, purchase tickets and then go. if it's cold and blustery they go. They have tickets already. If it's hot, they complain, but they go, etc. Weather really doesn't come into play because they're forced to purchase tickets far in advance.

For middle ring teams, ones where they sell well, but don't sell out consistently, you'll see some spike from good weather. People will see it's a nice day, and check to see if there are tickets available and they'll get them online or whatever that day, or a day or two in advance. Families won't typically just 'pop in' for game on a lark though, becuase the game sell out enough that they try it and get burned soon enough by not having tickets available and never try again to pop in on the game. However you'll see a slight spike because of good weather.

For bad teams, teams that never sell out (or rarely sell out) you'll see a much more pronounced spike in good weather. Both for the same thing as the middle ring teams of people checking out teh game because the weather is nice, but also people with families or just looking for something to do. Weeknight games generally won't see huge spikes, but weekends will get massive ones 1/3 to 1/4 of the attendance higher, simply from good weather. "What shoudl we do today? Go for a bike ride? Go to the zoo? Hey are the Pirates in town?"

I guarantee on a nice day in Boston nobody says "Hey what should we do today, go for a bike ride? go to the zoo? hey are the red sox in town?"

At least not families without season tickets.

So it's not that people don't have other options on nice days in other places, it's that they don't consider the ball game one of those activities. It's a competitive sporting event in a place like Boston, and one where you're kinda crazy to expect to get walkup tickets. In places like Pittsburgh though, it's seen precisely AS that, not a competitive team, but a thing to do on par with any other activity in the region.

Does that make sense?

[cboy4]

10. The problem is the Cubs skew that argument ..

For the most part, I understand what you're saying, but ChiCub fans come no matter what .. rain or shine because they're either incredibly loyal or just plain insane.

Or both..


So while I understand what you're arguing ..

The Giants have been horrible over the past few years .. game time temperature is usually in the 50's, with fog and the wind chill in the 40's.

However:


2004.....3,256,858
(AVE)40,208

2005.....3,181,023
(AVE)39,271

2006.....3,129,785
(AVE)38,639

2007.....3,223,217
(AVE)39,792

2008.....2,863,837
(AVE) 35,356

[SteelPenguin]

11. It takes more than a few years of bad

If the Giants hadn't broken .500 in 17 years I absolutely guarantee you those numbers would be lower. It's just time. Being bad for a few years will drop the numbers, and the Giants HAVE dropped about 5k per game in attendance from when they were in the league series a few years ago.

People there still believe they can compete, hope to be good, think the management wants to win.

If the Giants don't break .500 for another 15 years those people will not be there. The kids growing up with a great team won't be fans anymore. The people won't bother going down to a game when it's foggy.

Belief. Hope. Dreams. Call it cheesy, but that's what will still fill seats when a team is bad. The belief that the team actually CAN turn it around. That they really are just that one peice away from winning 2 of 3 and getting into the Series. Each game matters. It's about the team. It's about competition.

It takes awhile for that to die in people. Heck there still are probably 10k people per game in Pittsburgh who still believe it. Maybe more.

I think it's you who always posts about that great new pitcher for the Giants? Imagine if he were to get traded this year for jack shit prospects. What if one of those propects actually turned out good and then next year, or the year after they traded him away for jack. What if another one got better, and a year from them the Giants didn't offer him a contract and he went to play for the Yankees. Repeat that for 15 years along with losing seasons.

A few bad years won't stop people from believing. Nearly 2 decades of systematic non-competition will.

[SteelPenguin]

12. Also attendance wise...

San Francisco Giants

Year | Final Record | Final Standing | Average Attendance | Attendance Rank
2009 | 34-28 | 2 | 34,505
2008 | 72-90 | 4 | 35,356 | 7th of 16
2007 | 71-91 | 5 | 39,793 | 5th of 16
2006 | 76-85 | 3 | 38,646 | 4th of 16
2005 | 75-87 | 3 | 39,272 | 3rd of 16
2004 | 91-71 | 2 | 39,718 | 3rd of 16
2003 | 100-61| 1 | 40,307 | 1st of 16 | Lost LDS (3-1)
2002 | 95-66 | 2 | 40,163 | 1st of 16 | Lost WS (4-3)
2001 | 90-72 | 2 | 40,888 | 1st of 16
2000 | 97-65 | 1 | 40,973 | 2nd of 16 | Lost LDS (3-1) | 1st Year in PacBell/SBC/ATT
1999 | 86-76 | 2 | 25,659 | 10th of 16
1998 | 89-74 | 2 | 23,770 | 10th of 16
1997 | 90-72 | 1 | 20,875 | 11th of 14 | Lost LDS (3-0)
1996 | 68-94 | 4 | 17,243 | 13th of 14
1995 | 67-77 | 4 | 17,243 | 12th of 14

Even going back to 89 and their appearance in that world series the attendance was only an average of 25k putting them 5th of 12 teams rank wise.

Three years of a good team from 97-99 improved the attendance of the Giants from a paltry 17k to a whopping 25k. Then they got lucky with a combination of a brand new, and admittedly great, ballpark along with a continued good team. For 8 years the team finished first or second in the division and competed for the top spot maintaining their good numbers, but even after a few years, the numbers started to dip. Where they were best in attendance from 2001 through 2003 in the NL, they've now dipped to fifth, and so far this year even with appearnaces of a better team, the numbers are down.

Honestly when I look at the San Fran numbers, I see a town that had similar drawing of the Pirates, even without a good team, and they simply managed to combine a great team, with a brand new top of the line stadium, which did well to buoy their numbers for a few years. I don't, however, believe that those numbers would hold were the team to play below .500 ball for 5 more years, much less 15.

[cboy4]

14. Nah, you have to throw the Candlestick Park attendance figures out of the

window for a number of reasons -- and I'm absolutely not trying to talk down to you because a lot of people don't take this information into account!

But first of all, did you ever see a "baseball game" there -- especially one at night??



If you did, then I won't have to explain the Indian Summer phenomenon!

Yea, it's generally warmer going to 49er games in September!

That's the big joke around here .... how everyone can't wait until football season so it will warm up.

**Also, the Giants came close to moving to St. Petersburg, FL in the early 1990's. Never forget the evening when I was a kid, as the Tampa-St Pete news crews gathered at Candlestick Park during he game (I think it was against Houston) to report the "good news." :eyes:

So that affected attendance, up and after. People weren't going to support a team that was leaving!

And course, the Giants compete against those rat-bastard favorite step-kids .. the Oakland A's, so

And, the AAA A's and Giants play not too far away, so.......everyone competing for the same fan base. I don't think the Pirates are in the same position.

Not making excuse .. just pointing out some factors!

[SteelPenguin]

15. No I'm familiar with it

It's obvious that a better park, also closer into town and far more accessible (when I lived in San Fran earlier in the decade I drove by it every day going to work), increased attendance. I'm also familiar with San Francisco micro climates stuff.

However would real fans attend even with it being cold? Believe me it's damn cold to go see a baseball game at night in alot of the Northeast as well, even well into the summer time. May and June games, not to mention September and October that drop really low. The cold isn't a factor in October Red Sox attendance.

As far as the A's affecting attendance, the population is alot higher too. The combined San Fran / Oakland population is twice Pittsburgh's metro population.

That said you can't throw it out. It's just part of the equation. It shows that the new park heavily increased attendance, but all new stadiums show a bounce. Both Pittsburgh and San Francisco showed around a 50% boost to attendance with a new park. It's just how it is. The San Fran numbers were higher because simultaneously they were sporting a great team.

Honestly you can throw stuff out there, weather, population, quality fandom, stadiums...they all play a factor...But the biggest one is how good a team is OVER TIME. If a team finishes either in the playoffs, or fighting for a playoff spot at the end of the year then next year, in general attendance will go up, or stay the same. If they finish below .500 then population will go down or stay the same.

Over time if you finish below .500 long enough you'll lose more and more and more. There is a floor for each market, what that is varys again based on population and the like, but when it comes down to it the giants had a few bad years and lost 13% of their attendance. After just a couple bad years.

If they played like that for 15 years I guarantee you the attendance would be lucky to break 20k, and people would be saying "What do you want to do today? I dunno are the Giants in town?"

It's just how it is.

[SteelPenguin]

13. Oh and the Cubs...

The Cubs have been in 4 division series in the past decade, and their team at least seems to try and put a team to win on the field payroll wise. When the Cubs sucked in the 70's and into the begining of the 80's they even hit 9k in average attendance there in 81.

[cboy4]

4. I was wondering why they drew so-so crowds. Although it's important to

point out that it was indeed cap night on Friday:




And Honus Wangner 1909 figurine day on Saturday:



But good for the Pirates. Anything to draw happiness to an otherwise unbelievably dreary atmosphere at the home of the Pirates.

[Capt. America]

6. Its a shame that the Pirates do not have better attendance, because I've been to PNC

and it is a great ballpark. Probably in the Top 5 of all of baseball.

With the Steelers and the Penguins both winning championships in a small market it only reminds the people of Pittsburgh how little the Pirates organization thinks about putting a winning (they haven't sniffed .500 in like 17 YEARS)product on the field, let alone a championship level team.

The people of Pittsburgh actually have the right idea, which I wish the Browns fans would learn, if your ownership team refuses to put a quality product on the field, YOU SHOULD THEN REFUSE TO SPEND MONEY ON THE TEAM. If the Browns fans show up for bad teams and bad management there is no incentive for them to change because they are still cashing the checks. Hit them in the wallet.

[SteelPenguin]

9. The people here have totally given up on the team

The joke around town has been "A Lombardi Trophy, a Stanley Cup, and the Pirates might even finish above .500 this year." followed by a laugh.

Pittsburgh has never been a huge baseball town, but at the same time they'd support the team if it were even mildly competitive. As it is most people have completely given up. You can't earnestly try and support a team for almost 2 decades without a whiff of the team caring about being competitive. Nobody can.

It's a AAA feeder team in all but name now.

But it's still fun to go to games. It's a great park.

[SteelPenguin]

8. That's what it was...cap night

I knew there was some promotion going on. They do something for most weekend games. Next weekend I think the entire team minus the starting pitcher is going to be working the gates welcoming people to the game, plus a full fireworks show from Zambelli...

I considered taking my son to his first ballgame on Friday because it was cap night, now that I'm reminded of this, but it quickly went out the window when Game 7 got scheduled.

However just because it's empty don't think it's dreary at PNC park. Oh sure the more makes it better, but on a nice day, with 15k people there and good weather it's a nice time. Beautufil comfortable park, nice field, got a game in front of you to watch, cold beer in your hand, a Pittsburgh only Pirmanti sandwich in the other....

good times.