GLBTs, How Would You Describe Yourself?

[Placebo]

I guess you could say I'm all over the map. I have my seriously gayer than gay moments, and other times where you'd (probably) never know. :D

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Other

Although I could be considered "femme" or even "all over the map," I doubt there is a single person who couldn't figure out I am gay, unless they are really stupid, naive, or just oblivious! :)

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. I don't relate to any of the categories....

I consider them to be roles that we are assigned... stereotypes, if you will... by the larger society that many of us unthinkingly buy into.

[foreigncorrespondent]

3. Other!

I'm pretty much femme. And really unless I tell you I am a lesbian, you would have no idea I am a lesbian.

I do however like to do butch things like camp and fish and stuff. Yes I have gone fishing in the past with my makeup on. LOL

[Boomer]

4. Other

I'm neither butch nor femme -- I missed out on most gender qualities of any distinction. Not athletic, not mechanically inclined, not domestic or maternal, not stylish.

I grew up as a genderless book worm and in middle age morphed into a genderless computer nerd.

My partner, on the other hand, is BOTH butch and femme. She does light carpentry, gardens, cooks, cleans, loves football, drives a truck, nurtures animals and people, plays music, and used to be a first-class machinist, training which she acquired after earning a Fine Arts degree for painting.

Which begs the question of why she needs me around, but fortunately she seems to like the arrangement!

[6000eliot]

5. Butch

I'm masculine, but not a drill sergeant.

[UncleSepp]

6. Pretty gosh darn butch, but in a different way

Hm, as I sit here typing my last post before bed, in a tie (double Windsor knot) a crisp dress shirt with nice cuff links (not my favorite, but the blue stone goes with the tie), my suit jacket with the coordinating silk pocket square thrown over the back of the chair... how do I answer this? :-D

I like hair pomade that smells of bay rum and having my neck and sideburns shaved with a straight razor in a barber shop. I like to wear a silver ring with a square stone, a panama hat with a grosgrain band, and one day I *will* own a pair of sock garters! I will!

I'm a refined butch. Fancy butch. I wanna dance the tango and I wanna lead butch. Yes, I can shoot a gun and change a tire and I've got every intention of installing my own kitchen faucet in a week or so, but such totally practical things never strike me as being masculine until someone points it out. Neither is changing a baby diaper or distinguishing cream from eggshell from candlelight particularly feminine in my book. Jeans and boots, fatigues and short hair, none of those seem gender-specific either - when those are appropriate, what else would one wear?

It's those trappings and behaviors which have no function at all outside of announcing one's gender which draw me the most, and which I enjoy the most. They're like the fancy feathers on a peacock that let you know you're not looking at a peahen! So I put on my suit and raise up my crest and let the world see my gorgeous colors. Here I am, take it or leave it.

Hey, maybe I was wrong. I'm neither butch nor femme - I'm fabulous :-)

[readmoreoften]

22. hell, you sound hot!

I like a butch who knows how to dress. My boyfriend is a no-op trannyboy who considers himself light-in-the-loafers because he likes show tunes and can put together a wardrobe... but he only likes girls.

Well, I'm a femme, a red-lipstick, platform shoes, dyed hair, eye-make-up drag queen of a woman. But now that I'm 34, I'm more of a suit jacket with platform shoes type, slightly more reserved but equally fabulous.

Anyway. You sound hot to me!

[UncleSepp]

30. Why, thank you! You've made my day :-D

[xchrom]

7. muscle mary?

i have a 6 pak -- nice pecs -- gorgeous arms{if i say so myself} -- broad shoulders narrow hips --

not especially butch

love doing housework - and love to garden.

hate electronics, anything to do with the car other than drive it.
not especially fond of hammers and nails -- though i have to use them all the time.

in short -- a BIG FAG!

[tjwmason]

13. Are you trying to get us all to swoon?

[ropi]

40. :swoon:

catch me... get the salts...

oh..that was my uber femme 19th century moment!

[swimmernsecretsea]

16. I don't believe you...

Post a photo so I'll be convinced.

[libnnc]

8. to use an old, old lesbian term

I guess I'm "kiki" which means neither really butch nor really femme.

As I understand it, back in the day when butch/femme roles dictated everything in lesbian bar culture, "kikis" were looked down on. They couldn't be pegged. I guess I fit that category.

I'm sort of butch looking (short blond hair, no make-up, I live in jeans and sweatshirts) but I'm quite femme around the house. I despise anything remotely associated with yard work. I'm frightened of power tools. I love to cook. I'm an alpha female in the kitchen.

And quite submissive in the sack too. :evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

37. Lesbian History/'Kikis'/Identity

Actually, according to pretty much the only lesbian ethnography of the time (Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold), a 'kiki' was a person who was SOMETIMES butch and SOMETIMES femme. It didn't mean someone who was 'a little of both'. It meant something akin to a 'flip flopper'. Being either butch OR femme was socially akin to being 'who you REALLY are' back then. Gender blurring was similar to how many gay and lesbian people characterized bisexuals in the 80s (and unfortunately, this demeaning idea persists). They were considered 'on the fence'...folks who couldn't 'make up their minds' or 'be their true selves.'

My opinion is that kikis were villianized then for the same reason that bisexuals are sometimes villianized now: a cohesive sense of community identity in a hostile world (by the way I'm not EXCUSING prejudice, just offering a possible explanation.) In a butch/femme world, it was threatening for your femme girlfriend to leave you and become a butch. Your masculinity might be questioned (and it was already SO questioned by the outside world because you were a female, that it being questioned within the community was tough to bear). Also, when someone's girlfriend 'switched teams' they expressed the feeling of having been lied to. These days, this is a common complaint that lesbians have when their bisexual lovers leave them for men. (I'm not saying this is RIGHT, I'm just saying I've heard women say this. Many times when our bisexual lovers leave us for men, we say "oh, they were straight all along" instead of saying... hey maybe they're not interested in US PERSONALLY anymore.)

Up until the 70s-80s, the lesbian community defined their queerness by gender as much as same-biological sex attraction. So in the 1930's and 40's a 'lesbian' was by definition a masculine female or an invert. Many of the women interviewed from this time period made statements such as "a lesbian and her girlfriend" with the express meaning that the feminine counterpart was NOT a lesbian. By the 1940s this was being argued, where some women felt that both butches and femmes were lesbians, while others thought it was absurd: only the masculine woman was a lesbian. By the 1950s, both parties identified as either butch lesbians or femme lesbians.

But in our 'enlightened' (I'm being sarcastic) scientific age we identify ourselves by our bodies and not our genders and we think that this means progress. I'm very skeptical when people say 'I'm just me' because... well DUH. People who are butches and femmes are no less themselves, they just have a particular orientation. It would be offensive to gay/lesbian people if pansexuals said, "I'm not gay or straight, I'm just me!" Another similar lament is "Why do we need labels?" I'm sure there are many labels these lamenters hold dear...such as 'gay', 'male', 'woman', 'assistant manager', 'mother', 'son', or 'liberal'.

I'm not a strict social constructionist nor am I an essentialist. I think that identity formation is a combination of an innate sense of self and one's place in the world with the options that are given.

Thanks for allowing me to rant. No insults intended. If you have a word for your gender, I'll be happy to refer to you in a way that pleases you.

[FreepFryer]

9. Your scale perpetuates homophobic stereotypes. (n/t)

[Boomer]

10. Where there's smoke?

Political ideology should not deny the reality of people's lives.

Yes, gender stereotypes can be affectations assumed by individuals at times when they are considered to be "trendy" or the expected standard of conformity for gay culture. But for others, this gender dysphoria is anything but arbitrary -- it is bone-deep rather than a suit of colors.

I'm a plain vanilla androgynous lesbian, but I respect those women who truly feel "butch" or "femme" and who delight in those roles, which feel natural to them.

[FreepFryer]

11. That axis is one of many. This poll only rates on that stereotype.

I never argued that 'butch/femme' doesn't exist. It's just not the totality of choices.

Right now, there are 3 'other' and 10 'all over the map' responses, out of 23 total. So more than half the responses here admittedly reject that as the sole axis.

You're right - where there's smoke...

Point taken?

[xchrom]

12. lol -- this is just about fun ...

nothing serious here -- if this plays into your sense of yourself -- that's on you.

[FreepFryer]

14. "Blue, Blue/Red, Red/Blue, Red and Other" does not describe the rainbow.

Fun or not, the original poster said:

"How Would You Describe Yourself?
I have my seriously gayer than gay moments, and other times where you'd (probably) never know.

The whole point is that 'gayer' does not equal more 'femme'.

And of course it's about ourselves - that's the title... "How Would You Describe Yourself".

[xchrom]

15. well then try having a giggle at your own expense.

there's no need to lecture someone in a thread that obviously not serious.

i'll take a backseat to no one re: language and being p.c....
but there are moments to let your hair down and not take yourself seriously.

i mean one of the perks about being a minority is not only do we live irony -- we can create irony.

[FreepFryer]

19. I've got a good sense of humor, and this thread is not overtly humorous.

I pointed out what I pointed out because it's correct, not because I'm too stolid to recognize 'funny'.

The premise of this thread isn't funny, it's just insipid. There's a difference.

[xchrom]

20. lol -- thanks for proving my point.

[FreepFryer]

21. And likewise thanks for proving mine.

You can't just explain away idiotic perpetuation of stereotypes by saying it's all in fun.

Racists did a lot of that too. Remember Amos and Andy? Those actors were black but they took their cues from whites.

We should be doing the same, not buying into the hostility of the stereotypes.

You're not being ironic, you're being flippant. Think up a good joke, you may see a different response.

[readmoreoften]

23. Why do people get offended when people identify as

butch or femme?

I think it's interesting that GLBT people who have a different gender configuration, or who are a-gender think it's okay to call butch and femme 'stupid stereotypes.' They happen to be ways of being that have endured for thousands of years, cross-culturally in myriad ways even though they are currently politically incorrect.

I'm a femme and I was pretty much laughed out of gay bars for years for not getting in lock-step with the genderless sporty dyke crew. I don't have a problem with the existence of people with other genders (including attempts at being agender) so I personally don't take crap from anyone in the gay community.

I'm here. I'm femme. Get frikkin used to it.

[FreepFryer]

24. Again, you completely misstate me. Butch/femme is real, but it's not all.

There are no other axes in the poll, and 'other' is basically half the people answering.

Need I say it five times?

[readmoreoften]

25. I'm not misstating you at all.

You said that butch/femme is a homophobic stereotype. Butch/femme is not a stereotype. In fact, we are definitely the minority in the gay community today. Find names for your own gender and assert it if you want to feel represented. Lesbians with mullets and gay men in short-shorts are stereotypes. Butches and femmes are two types people who have a long history in the gay community. There's a difference.

[FreepFryer]

27. No I didn't. I said this poll without other valid options reinforces it.

Butch/femme is real.

It's not all there is.

This poll does not reflect that except with an 'all' or 'other'.

A minority or not, it's a stereotype.

As an example, one extremely offensive question that many straight people ask about homosexual relationships: "Which one is the woman in your relationship and which is the man" assumes and reinforces that stereotype.

As does this poll.

[Boomer]

45. The other valid options are not codified

Butch/femme -- for both historical and psychological reasons -- is a widely recognized profile for gay men and women, both within and without the subculture.

I consider butch and femme to be types, rather than stereotypes. They are an entrenched part of my cultural history and one which I, personally, find fascinating. I don't give a damn that straight people ask stupid questions based on their crude, uninformed perceptions of those roles. I'm not going to change my reality to suit them, or deny the prominent role that butch/femme relationships have played in the formation of the most visible parts of the gay community.

Yes, there are many more options that being butch or femme, but they aren't as easily named. The poll offers the general terms "All over the map" and "Other", both of which invite clarification of other options that are too diverse or diffuse to warrant a handy tagline. These answers are personal, biographical, because they don't fit in a named category that has meaning to the rest of us.

Perhaps, in time, other gay gender roles may develop and assume prominence in our culture. Maybe they won't. The emergence of cultural icons is not a process that can be controlled by individuals or by political policy. In the meantime, regardless of whether it describes a particular individual, the butch/femme dichotomy has a strong presence in gay history.

Some people don't like that fact, others do.

I'm in the latter category, myself. I think the butch/femme dynamic has enormous romantic and erotic appeal, much more so than the vanilla demeanor that I have assumed. Which does make me wonder, at times, if I have conformed to the politically-driven stereotypes of my own era, namely an almost sex-less androgyny.

[readmoreoften]

46. thanks, great post! n/t

[sundog]

31. everyone seems to get offended by something

:eyes:

someone once got their panties knotted up cause I said something about "femme straight guys"... um :wtf:

no matter what opinion you express, you'll end up stepping on someone's toes

meh... the only thing that seems to be accepted are posts relishing our victimization

[BR_Parkway]

33. Probably why the ReThugs have an easier time creating

concensus - they find it much easier to think alike, dress alike, not-tattoo themselves alike, get similar jobs, buy similar houses, and hate the same groups.

Why hate? Simple - they can't help but look around at their boringness and wonder, every once in a while, what they are missing.


<on edit> Voted Other - I don't fit neatly into any of the categories - It took me almost 30 years to be comfortable defining myself as ME, and now that I have, I like it and I'll stick with it.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

29. Agree

Why be butch- or femme-acting... Why not just be YOU-acting?

Edited to add:

"Anyone can be gay -- it's no accomplishment -- but only I can be me." --Ned Rorem

[readmoreoften]

47. Where did YOU create YOU and why do YOU look so much

like everyone else? I mean, once again, being butch or femme does not mean you're not an individual with individual style and sensibilities. Butch/femme eroticism has had a longer history in the lesbian community than ANYTHING else. Most of the people I know who claim to be so 'individual' look like every other damn androgenous person I've ever seen. I find it so hard to believe that every non-butch/femme person out there is designing their own clothing to reflect their inner relationship with their body and sexuality in such a unique way that it never possibly be expressed by anyone else.

Are leathermen not being themselves? Are sporty dykes not being themselves? Are hippy, androgenous dykes not being themselves? Are circuit boys not being themselves? Are Abercrombie and Fitch wearing gays so damn 'themselves'? Well, then why aren't butches and femmes also THEMSELVES.

I'm a person who lives in a community with a history and I'm not ashamed of our history. I'm proud of the butches and femmes who struggled to survive before me.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

48. I agree...

It's a much simpler issue when all you consider are appearances and what one wears.

Myself (YMMV), I reject limiting labels of definition. Not only are they insufficient to describe the complex person who is Me, but they serve as a mechanism by which straight people can easily and safely compartmentalize us, taking their perception of gays and lesbians further and further away from us being just fellow human beings. Not only others, but our own "brothers" and "sisters" obviously find it easier to snub other gay subcultures when they can so easily be identified (if you don't believe this, just try going to a "leather bar" in the "wrong" costume and see how accepting the regulars are).

I'm also with you in being proud (and in my case also grateful) of those stuggling before us; the only other difference is that I would describe them simply as people and not try to pigeonhole them as butch or femme.

That said, I would not try to move anybody's perception of who they are; I only mean to offer a point for thoughtful consideration. If that's not someone's bag, then by no means do they have any responsibility to think about it.

Paraphrasing a bumpersticker that stuck in my mind years ago: "I live, I love, I work, I pay taxes, I vote. WHAT 'gay lifestyle'?"

[davidinalameda]

17. fabulous!

what else

:party:

[xchrom]

26. i agree -- you are fabulous!

can i have your autograph?:yourock:

[davidinalameda]

28. If I must!

what I do for the little people

[Zhade]

18. I say all over the map (I'm bi)...

...but my close friends ALL say I'm a woman.

I'd make an UGLY woman.

[terrya]

32. Pretty much all over the map.

Kinda butch sometimes, kinda femme other times. :-)

[radfringe]

34. soft butch

I guess is the closest term..

I live in jeans, t-shirts. Couldn't pay me enough to wear a dress - but I will throw on some makeup/ "do up my hair" and wear a nice suit if it's necessary

I took over doing the housework and do most of the cooking mainly because heavy duty yard work sets off my fibramyalgia -- but I still do some yard work, gardening

I have a workshop with powertools and do my best at attempting "do-it-yourself" home repairs

I like fishing and have attempted to teach my partner how to fish (Kind of frustrating because she expects to catch a fish the nano-second the bait hits the water)

[Misunderestimator]

35. And I bet you have to bait her hooks too?

:) I know I do that to whoever I fish with.

[radfringe]

39. lol -- yes

and take the fish off too

she's a bit of a "moosh" when it comes to critters -- she'll walk away for a moment while I bait the hook

sometimes the "imp" in me comes out and I'll do a stage whisper in a high pitched voice as I put the worm on the hook -- "help me help me...nooooooooooo"


reminds me of a time when I took my little sister fishing -- I baited the hook, cast out the line, set the hook when she had a bite, reeled in the fish (10" yellow perch), took it off the hook, and carried it home -- when we got into the house -- my sister says to our father "Look what I caught"... :eyes:

[Deja Q]

36. An individual loathing labels.

Amongst other things.

[readmoreoften]

38. so is it wrong to ask if you're gay? n/t

[election_2004]

41. Somewhat femme

Some people can tell (that I'm gay) right away, others can't.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Butch, basically.

:hi:

[kweerwolf]

43. The only thing I could pick was 'other'

As a big, bearded guy, I used to identify as part of the "bear" movement. (For the uninitiated, 'bears' are the self-loathing branch of the gay community, but without the political aspirations of the Log Cabins. They also tend to carry their psuedo-masculinity to the extreme ... almost to the point of making it a pathology.)

My favorite line when one of these 'bears' questioned whether I was butch enough to be a bear was: "Oh honey! I'm more of a man than you'll ever be and more of a women than you could ever imagine being in your secret drag fantasies!" :evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

44. that is so hilarious

i actually produced a bear porn a few years back even though i'm a lesbian. a few of my bear friends stopped being bears because there was a lot of pressure on them to eschew their punk/tattoo sensibilities. i think bears are cute, though (in a totally nonsexual way).

[FuzzyDicePHL]

49. Nicely put

Bears are just another exclusionary gay sub-group. And you're so right about "pseudo-masculinity." I call them "male impersonators."