regardless of how we felt about Byrd in life we will have a tough DU day today

[dsc]

Hope you all make it through. I wish the man and his family no ill will but seeing him lionized like Kennedy will not be pretty.

[hlthe2b]

1. Don't worry... there are several grave dancers focusing on

his misdeeds from 70 years ago, or positions held more recently, however misguided.... Any good he has done (and there has been considerable) will be ignored. We are a very discrete, good or bad judgmental community at times.

I'll go ahead and state that I will never be judged positively if seen through that unforgiving prism upon my passing. If truth were told, none of us would. :shrug:

[JohnnyLib2]

2. Well said.

Thank you.

[GodlessBiker]

3. But that implies that he should be judged by the same criteria by all...

Surely, those of us in communities he disparaged have the moral right to take umbrage with him because of what he did to us and our community. We can acknowledge the good, but still judge him based upon the criteria we select.

[hlthe2b]

4. Those disparaging are NOT acknowledging any good he may

have done. THAT is the difference. This moral absolutism is a very unpleasant aspect of our progressive community.

[dsc]

5. How is that any different from the people who are idolizing him?

I don't have a problem with mentioning his good qualities along with the bad, but I have a huge problem with mentioning his good qualities in absense of his bad ones.

[hlthe2b]

6. As mentioned... the truly mean posters are out there.. no worries.

If that is what you are seeking, you will be rewarded...? :shrug:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

8. Apparently, civility is not within your capacity.

I feel very very very sorry for you.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

10. I have said nothing unkind to you. This is inappropriate.

You know that.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

14. Very inappropriate joyebee12.

I am saddened by your attacks. I have never given you reason to do so.

[joeybee12]

15. A question is not an attack, don't act so self-rightous...would it?

Would it be different if Byrd was a racist or an anti-semite? No, he's ONLY a homphobe and that is different is what you're saying.

[hlthe2b]

16. Accusing me of adopting a caste system?

You really think THAT is not a personal attack? REALLY?

[joeybee12]

17. You have a thin skin...you really are trying to turn a question into an attack

when you won't answer the question...HOW is one bigotry different from another...if Byrd were still a racist, would ANYONE in the democratic Party care that he was against the Iraq War, would anyone sing his praises? he was a homophbe and nothing washes that away.

My last post on this...apparently the moderators seem to be condoing homophobia again.

[hlthe2b]

18. Byrd was a flawed human being... Some of his biases--racism--

he spent the majority of his life getting past and atoning for. With time, he might have come to the same conclusion regarding his views on homosexuality. The man showed he was capable of evolution in his views. That his very misguided views on homosexuality were fostered by the strong hold of his religious foundations, undoubtedly obstructed any change on that score. How should we view a person who may have held many honorable viewpoints and done much good in his lifetime, while simultaneously having held an unacceptable bias that most would denounce? Some argue that the one "bad" argues against any consideration of the good. That is for you to decide but I would hope you would do so and disagree in a way that respects others who might disagree as I would expect others to do with you. If that expectation marks me as having "thin skin", then so be it.

[LostinVA]

19. With time?! He was almost 100 and still a homophobe and anti-choice

He was also very against Affirmative Action, and his use of the word "nigger" in 2001 was quite shocking to me at the time, and still is.

He shouldn't be demonized, but he shouldn't be lionized, either. He WAS a bigot, not some paragon of tolerance and acceptance. The man was anti-war, and I give him that. But, as recently as this month, he "cut a deal" about DADT that will do nothing but delay and hurt non-discrimination for GLBT service members.

[hlthe2b]

20. You make valid points..

I know of no one that condones these stands. However, I do wonder how well any of us will stand up when compared to the rapidly changing viewpoints and social mores 60 or so years from now. I credit Byrd for at least trying to change.

BTW, he apologized for his use of the n-word in 2001. By that standard, my beloved grandmother, who to my knowledge never had an unkind word or action towards anyone in her lifetime, would be excoriated. She used terminology that was "acceptable" in her youth and had trouble not "slipping" in her 90s as time and acceptable norms marched forward. I remember my return from an early trip to Egypt and this dear woman who had never left this country (and possibly never even the state in which she lived) asked me timidly about the brown people--and were they like our.... (term deleted) Anyone reading that might assume her to be a horrible person and meaning great ill towards those she inquired. That was not the case. Reading Byrd's comment-apology in 2001, I draw the same conclusion.

[GodlessBiker]

11. It's not moral absolutism, it's a difference in moral priorities and tipping points.

We all make certain moral judgments, and we judge some violations of our own moral code as more serious than others. Moreover, the accumulation of judgments lead us to make overall moral conclusions about people, with each of us using a different calculus to make these conclusions.

I don't think it is inappropriate for members of the community(ies) who were disparaged by the late senator to employ a calculus that puts him in a bad light. The calculus of others may cause different conclusions, but that doesn't invalidate the conclusions reached by members of these communities.

[hlthe2b]

13. I can appreciate that GodlessBiker

Many of us have had friends or colleagues lost to HIV. The OP is not alone in recognizing that as a moral issue.

[Smashcut]

21. It's a little easier to "let it slide" when it wasn't your ox being gored, isn't it?

[hlthe2b]

23. Sort of like how some fail to be concerned when anti-choice pols

are lauded because of stances that are positive towards other personally held positions? Yes, I have been "gored" as well; yet I do attempt to view those serving many many years towards the majority of my democratic ideals-- in their totality-- even when they hold a view so counter to my very being.

[Smashcut]

24. You must be thinking of someone else

I have never, ever given a pass to an anti-choice pol. And I never will. Solidarity with women, here, always.

[Smashcut]

22. .

[MNBrewer]

25. Regardless, I admire his eloquent opposition to the Iraq war.

RIP