Is it better to say we are no different than anyone else?

[Paradoxical]

Or would it be wiser, and possibly ethically sound, to concede to the differences between the heteronormative way of life and the way of life that most, if not all, GLBT members would like to live.

That is, a life that could be tangibly more genuine and healthy than the society currently in existence.

I'm been reading a lot of literature on queer liberation. And one of the main points of focus is on the likelihood that GLBT members are naturally rebellious because they are considered abject by society. By rebellious, I do not mean the stereotypical response of sexually promiscuous. I mean rebellious as in we ask more from our government and community. We don't feed in to the dysfunctional nature of current society.

The conclusions from such claims are somewhat fuzzy. Do we try to form our own culture that coincides with the heternormative one? Should we declare ourselves superior?

This is all assuming that the queer liberation theories are somewhat accurate. Which I'm inclined to believe from personal experience. But I'm very young. So my beliefs might suffer from the brightness of immaturity.

But what say you guys? Should we be jumping on board with the "We are all one" crowd or declaring our uniqueness as a counter to the heteronormative world?

[ZombieHorde]

1. People are both individuals and part of a whole. So I think you should do both. nt

[xfundy]

2. "we ask more from our government and community." ??

Like what? We ask for nothing other than to be left alone like everyone else, and maybe, pretty please, to not get bullied to the point of suicide or beaten to death just for being ourselves.

Everyone, regardless of who, is unique. Almost seven billion unique people are alive today. We are not part of a hive nor borg.

I didn't vote in the poll, as I found the questions absurd (nothing personal, just my opinion).

X

[JackBeck]

3. It's cultural blindness to lump everyone into the 'we are all one' type of crowd.

It reminds me of when well-meaning liberals say, "I don't see color." By stating that everyone is the same, we lose the opportunity to educate ourselves on what makes each of us unique. And that should be a life-long process, but needs to begin with the desire to want to do so. I also think those who strive for a more heteronormative world contribute to further oppression because they leave behind the many sub-cultures that make-up our community.

Within any larger, more monolithic look at group association, individual characteristics get lost, stereotypes (be they positive or negative) are formed and attributed to everyone within that group. We definitely have a 'culture' in the LGBT community, but it tends to be dominated by a face that is white and male. Just look at the recent Out Power 50 list.

But then there are also state and local laws that clearly relegate all members of the community to second class citizens. Where I part ways with queer activists is their desire to tear down institutions that are the building blocks to our society and culture. I see nothing wrong with, or for that matter assimilationist, the desire to get married, for instance. To me, it's quite radical to demand marriage equality. So, I voted for both.

[Zorra]

4. A paradox: As far as I know, *everyone is an individual*...

Does that mean we are in a way all the same, yet different, at the same time?
:shrug:
I am just me. I am LBGT. I have little control over what or how others think of me if I just always be myself.

I want equal rights under the law. No more or less than heterosexual* persons have.

That is my main agenda, politically, as far as my self-identity and as a human being is concerned. And, my agenda as far as our community goes, is the same.

Personally, I would like to assimilate into culture/society and have my sexual preference/self-identity not be viewed as some "issue". But I think that we will always naturally have a somewhat distinct culture, because of who we are fundamentally attracted to.

IMO, the first major step right now toward greater assimilation is gaining complete equal rights under the law. People in general will gradually get used to us marrying, being in the military, displaying affection in public, etc: and most of the other unnecessary baggage we have put on us now will fade with time once equal rights are esablished.

One problem is that we will always be vilified by RW fundie bigots, I doubt this will ever go away, and there are lot of them. They will always be dangerous to safety, equality, liberty, and freedom for everyone on the planet, but particularly for us.

It will be mainly the RW "true believers" that will continue to actively attempt to keep us from being equal under the law and gaining acceptance, they will never accept us under the "we are one" umbrella even if whichever their respective deity is appeared to them directly and told them to stop hating.

Sorry, can't answer your question(s) directly, because the situation is pretty complex and I don't think it is possible to answer within either/or parameters.

This is my general perspective, for what it's worth.
:hi:

[mitchtv]

5. didn't vote

we are all citizens in that sense we are the same,

[closeupready]

6. Depends on the issue.

I do not feel that gay people are just like people who aren't gay, but in matters where we differ, there is nothing objectively good or bad about that.

And in areas where we are just like heterosexuals, that can be a bad thing. For example, with regard to PDA's, I think heterosexuals are every bit as fucked up as gay people are by the dichotomous demand of society with regard to sexuality and sexual expression, as in, why does it seem like heterosexuals feel this CONSTANT NEED to shove their fondling each other's bodies and genitals in my face out in public right on the street, on the subway, etc., whereas gay people publicly behave toward their romantic partners like buddies? In both cases, it strikes me that these are hallmarks of those who either have a NEED to exploit an unfair social advantage or avoid a disadvantage, i.e., those who are somewhat mentally ill, or who have mental hang-ups about themselves.

[Scottybeamer70]

7. As a much older gay man,

I remember when being gay was also being unique. There seemed to be a bit of pride
in being different than the straights. I have never considered myself equal to
straights, and really don't understand all the marriage thing (except for the
money differences.) I've never marched, never proclaimed my sexuality to complete
strangers, so I guess I don't fit into too many categories that are thrown around
these days. I'm just me.....always have been........see no point in trying to be
like straight people because I would never succeed in that attempt. I don't hide
my sexuality, but neither do I announce it to the world. It's my life, not anyone
else's. Come to think of it, there are some gay people I don't like either!!
Telling me that I am "family" just doesn't appeal to me in the least.
Just my personal thoughts........

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. It's a complicated question.

Glen Greenwald made a related provocative comment a while back that we talked about here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x176093


I think we form our own culture because we *have* to. Not necessarily because it's politically wise or logical. It develops because it meets a need.

Not for everyone, of course. But for many.


>>>Should we be jumping on board with the "We are all one" crowd or declaring our uniqueness as a counter to the heteronormative world?>>>

We'll need to do both, to some degree. And a lot of us don't really feel completely at home in *either* world. On one level, enmeshing oneself in gay subculture has the paradoxical effect of strengthening the sanctions that alienated us from the heteronormative world to begin with.


I think fate has decreed that we will always have a relationship with both worlds. To some degree we're all assimilationists and we're all separatists.

[Creideiki]

9. What is a "heteronormative lifestyle"?

Far as I know, there isn't any group lifestyle. There are individual lives. There are straight people who cheat on monogamous partners, swing, etc., and gay people who do not cheat on monogamous partners and like raising kids, living in suburban neighborhoods, and gardening or painting.

Then others of us who like computer games, gardening, dogs, and classical music.

Then others of us who like pop music, monogamy, cats, and volunteering at the LGBT center.

When we try to boil everyone down to a "lifestyle", we're lying--there's no monolithic lifestyle for any community. My parents like camping, gardening and woodworking. My aunt and uncle like hunting, playing cards, and raising horses. It's insane to assume that anyone should need to conform their life to anyone else's expectations based on sexual orientation.

Why should anyone be denied the full ability and protection of law to live the life that they choose?

[stevenleser]

10. "naturally rebellious because they are considered abject by society."

I think you are asking a number of questions. To the one I noted in the subject, I think if you have a Democracy that allows everyone to protest, but has one or more groups of people that are descriminated against and/or denied other basic rights, all of those groups will become naturally rebellious for the duration of the time that their rights are being denied and for a short time afterwards.

I think this is true of the African American community in the US, I think this is true of the Latino community in the US, and I think this is somewhat true of Jews worldwide. These groups have a higher than average sense and tendency toward activism which can be termed as rebellious or a desire to change the status quo.

I see the LGBT community the same way. You really have no choice but to become a more highly energized community in terms of activism if you are a discriminatd against group and want to change things.

As to some of your other questions. In addition to activism in discriminated against groups, you also tend to get elements within those groups that asserts superiority. The Black Muslims under Elijah Muhammad and to an extent under Farrakhan assert black superiority. There are certainly elements in the Jewish community that also assert superiority.

I'm not sure that the elements that assert superiority are helpful in terms of the fight for equal rights. If anything, they probably make things harder,

[marginlized]

11. Defining Terms

“concede to the differences between the heteronormative way of life and the way of life that most, if not all, GLBT members would like to live.”

Aside from what you mean by “heteronormative” - Ozzie and Harriet, or Ozzy Osborn? - how do you define the life that GLBT people would like to live?

Something tangibly more genuine and healthy?

And then you go on to suggest, in essence, that we’re asking for a lot. And here I thought in their last round of Federal Budget negotiations that the Republicans were asking for a HELL OF A LOT MORE from their Government and Community than ANY glbt person. All we’re asking for, for example, is the right to marry. That’s not gonna cost BILLIONS in lost revenue, ‘cause KOCH Bros. Inc., et al, want to keep their taxes low.

Friend, get a clue. Your conclusions aren’t what’s “fuzzy” here. Maybe it’s all that “theory” you’ve been reading. Perhaps you could offer a reference or two as to whose theory you refer to. That way, we could glean some hints as to what your theories suggest.

Again that “tangibly more genuine and healthy” something you have in mind is what? And if your answer goes anywhere near something like freedom from housing and employment discrimination aka ENDA, how is that - at all - even slightly more than the status quo that the rest of Society already has?

[w8liftinglady]

12. It's a combo of both... we are both alike and different... we are human

Do we need to become active in areas of inequality(marriage,benefits)? Absolutley. But,just like every GLBT doesn't fit into some preconceived box, neither must we allow ourselves to be presented as anything but what we are.
I am a happy bi mother of three boys who dresses like she feels at the moment.I don't feel the need to fit into a mold.I am in solidarity with however any lgbt does feel,however.If it feels right, do it.