Does anyone feel better or more agitated here?

[William769]

At the start & most of the day I felt better, but after reflecting now I'm just agitated.

[WillParkinson]

1. Recently quite agitated...

I stopped posting for a time until Skinner's thread. I thought things were going to be better so figured I would start posting again.

Say hello to the new boss. Same as the old boss.

[RKP5637]

2. Not sure anymore, it seems pretty sparse, like a lot of people have left or gone silent. n/t

[Heidi]

3. More agitated, more disappointed, less hopeful.

I believe "marriage equality NOW" should be the default position of a progressive community, and I'm extremely disappointed to see human rights being bandied about at DU as thought they're no more than strategy planks.

Also, and perhaps I'm a bigot myself for feeling this way, I don't believe DU is the place for bigots to be "brought around" to understanding that gay rights are human rights. As far as I'm concerned, bigots can have their epiphanies somewhere else and join the DU community once they're real progressives.

Edited for grammar.

[redwitch]

4. Ya know what?

I agree. Sigh.

[RKP5637]

5. +1000 +++ n/t

[Creideiki]

12. Your only mistake is in thinking this is a "progressive community".

It's really not.

It's just an ordinary Democratic Party community where the GLBT community is supposed to support everyone else and then hold their hat out to ask, "Please, sir. I'd like some...more."

[Heidi]

27. You may be right, and given what I've seen in Skinner's GD thread,

I may be in the wrong place. If someone came into my home and said some of the things I've seen posted in that thread, I'd ask them to leave. This "I've got _my_ rights so f*ck you" attitude makes my guts churn and my BP soar.

[QC]

35. This really was a progressive community at one time, though.

You are not the only person taken by surprise at the nasty turn DU took about three or four years ago.

This has always been a contentious place, but it hasn't always been a place where things like comparing Dan Choi to Veruca Salt and thanking people for their concern were considered the height of wit and intelligence.

For that, we needed the 2008 primary, when it was decided to throw out the rules and let 'er rip.

Most of the ugliness that we see now is the result of that terrible mistake, both in the hurt feelings that remain and in the sense of a few very loud people that they have the right to abuse anyone they please.

[Heidi]

37. I remember that DU used to be a lot different than it is now.

When I joined in 2004, there wasn't nearly as much mean spiritedness. I remember it feeling like a safe haven for like-minded people. I was a mod in LBN and GD during the primaries. The ugliness of that time something I never thought I'd see at DU; I remember logging in here every day with a sense of dread. I did the best I could as a mod, and I don't disagree with you that the primaries were the starting point for much of the mean spiritedness and abuse we see and experience at DU today. Too, I think that time brought a great many new members to DU -- including many whose main concern was getting the Republicans out of office, but not necessarily in advancing a genuinely progressive agenda.

I never in a million years would have ever thought I'd be one of those "old timers" posting about how much better DU used to be, but here I am, and there it is.

[MNBrewer]

38. It was an ugly primary

because it dragged lots of ugliness up from the depths of the Democratic Party's soul. The ugliness needs to be dealt with at some point, but right now it's just a festering cesspool of filth.

[QC]

39. Hostile takeovers are ugly. n/t

[MNBrewer]

41. You know, that's a very good way to put it, thanks! :)

[QC]

47. You're welcome! n/t

[Heidi]

42. There you go.

That's it exactly. The GLBT forum is about the only place on DU that reminds me of the "old" DU. I'm a 48-year-old straight woman, but this is where I find the most like-minded people in this community. No one in GLBT has ever demanded that I (after seven years at DU) prove my bona fides, or assumed I'm some rich b*tch because I'm an expat, or questioned my husband's right to post at DU because he's a "foreigner."

Thank you (all) for that.

[QC]

44. And thank you for being here!

This forum really is a refuge, isn't it?

[Heidi]

45. For me, it is.

Mostly, I've lurked in GLBT because it's where I can most easily find posts from like-minded people*, some of whom are longtime DU friends. I've not had a lot to add because much of what I have to say would just be preachin' to the choir. If I'm gonna preach, it's not gonna be to the faithful, if you know what I mean.

P.S. :hug:

*At the risk of leaving someone out, I've got to take that risk here in order to give props to xchrom, Pri, swimboy, Sapphocrat, Behind the Aegis, Jack Beck, Jamastiene, meegbear, Bluebear, dsc, yardwork, Will Parkinson, Ian David, Pab Sungenis, Lyric, pinto, Bluenorthwest, and Muserider. :yourock:

And just in case anyone trolls through here, takes this not necessarily all-inclusive list out of context and alerts: this isn't a callout. It's a heartfelt thank you.

[xiamiam]

40. i think it is mostly progressive with a few very vocal who browbeat if you are not in lockstep

the old du was filled with great wit which sometimes brightened by day..as well as activism..we were also more united against the repubs..now we are divided but that is not really our fault..it is the direction of the party and actions of its leaders which are the exact things we would have been united against before. Du used to be one of the most progressive sites on the web..not the case any longer but I dont think that's because of the undercurrent..
I think the crux is "progressive ideals and supporting democratic candidates" line in the rules section. There was a time when those things were not mutually exclusive.

[uppityperson]

14. Yup.

[Maven]

16. WORD

[enigmatic]

24. I agree completely

:hug:

[justiceischeap]

6. I love a good "fight" and I like being able to name names

but I don't think much is going to change. I think all we can do is to continue to try and educate the uneducated. I used to work for a non-profit that was all about converting folks to their way of thinking but if you worked there and wasn't what they wanted you to be, they treated you poorly. Instead of working from the inside to change their minds, they, IMO, squandered the opportunity to reach people. I think if we throw our hands up in the air, we're doing the same thing.

There are people that want to be and can be reached. That said, the usual troublemakers probably won't change or be TS'd. As much as they'll never admit it, there is also going to be people on DU that never see equality as a necessary issue because they only see it as "gay marriage." I think that's our fault for not framing it correctly. I think we should be talking more about whole equality instead of just that one issue.

Who knows, though, maybe I'm wrong. :shrug:

[William769]

8. I'm not sure how to respond to your post, I'll have to think about it for awhile.

I will say this for now though, I feel some people don't want to change. It's that felling of superiority over another group of people.

[justiceischeap]

9. I totally agree that some folks on DU don't want to change

and will always, always stir the pot because they get off on the drama. But I've seen some folks in that thread say they learned something about how our community has been treated on DU. If nothing comes from that thread, those few that have "seen the light" are worth it.

As for the rest of my post, I appreciate you taking the time to think over a response. Good dialogue should always be well thought out. :)

[RKP5637]

10. I think it's an ingrained human trait, the need to

have "that felling of superiority over another group of people." So, given the norm of American culture, it's accepted and applauded by many to bash this group. Going back in history Americans have always bashed one group or another and felt good about it ... it happens in all cultures and IMO is an ingrained human trait, the need to have "that felling of superiority over another group of people."

Hopefully in time it will subside and the bigots will learn. In many ways it's far better than it used to be decades ago.

In general, the human species is very immature. Just looking at all of the violence and suppression in the world, how can one conclude otherwise. Not too long ago in this country we would have been probably stoned/hung/burned at the stake. America is a very violent country in many ways.

[BillStein]

46. I wonder if it is ingrained

it seems to be ubiquitous, a worldwide phenomenon... Northern Italians disdain for Sicilians, Arabs v. Persians, Moslems v. Hindus, Irish Catholics v. Anglicans....I had a teacher once who felt that all societies depend on shared hatred of the "other", and that it is all learned behavior. I honestly don't know.

When I was a kid, it was communists and their agents in America, loosely defined as anyone who didn't conform. Nixon, of course, raised it to an art form with his "Silent Majority" paradigm.

Now it seems that we are the "other". I agree that it will probably change over time- someone else will become the dominant Other- illegal immigrants, probably. I only hope I have the courage to fight for their rights as hard as I have for my own.

It's disheartening when the people we want to think of as allies display their own bigotry. So now, as a day has passed since I said I was "agitated", all I feel is saddened.

[RKP5637]

48. I was thinking about what you said. Probably some of it is survival of

the species stuff, sort of distrust for survival ... but I bet a lot of it's learned behavior. I often notice how little kids often seem to all get along, but as they grow older they are taught either directly or by observation those who they should hate, be bigoted about, etc. Much as you were saying when young it was the communists, etc.

[Ninga]

7. Here's the deal - if I'm not agitated - I've got my head in the sand - avoiding.

[BillStein]

11. just agitated

Not more or less- just agitated-

[QC]

13. I'm waiting to see if anything actually changes.

If this exchange was meant to discuss the problem and solutions, then great.

If it's just the equivalent of Dad sending the kids out into the back yard with boxing gloves to "get it out of their system," then it was a waste of time.

[DURHAM D]

50. I think the point was as you stated in your last sentence.

The objective was to let us get it all out of our system and then vote for Obama.

IOWs - while we were talking about our fundamental rights - others (some paid) are only interested in the re-election of Obama.

For them it was all political strategy - it had/has nothing to do with our lives. They just don't care..

[xchrom]

15. Me. But because I was called priveleged based on my race in this forum by an 'lgbtiq' person.

I have lost housing.
I have been fired.
I have physically been assaulted, & threatened because of being a gay man.

It gets uglier - with family members of my beloved dead lover.

I'm fuckin PISSED!

[QC]

19. Is it a new incarnation of Political Tiger?

Remember how he claimed to be a gay person of color but then, one drunken night, got his sockpuppets mixed up and outed himself as a straight white guy, much to the consternation of his fan club, who had been using him to attack the hateful gays for months?

Ah, the human comedy.

[ruggerson]

21. That's when he told us the touching story of "Verna" I believe

[QC]

22. I believe you are correct.

I am told that he hangs out now at the Proctor & Gamble site.

Do you suppose he took Boomerang Diddle over there with him?

[ruggerson]

25. Good ole lovable Verna

He told us some long ridiculous, sentimental tale about her without realizing he was caricaturing her as a down home racist of the first order.

[QC]

26. Well, just because Verna's a virulent racist don't mean she ain't no nice person.

Now if you'll pardon me, I need to skeedaddle on out to the ceemint pond and whomp up a mess o' possum gizzards.

Weeeeeeeeeee-doggie!

[Prism]

32. I love that you remember her name

For a time, I thought I'd hallucinated that thread, where he talked about how much he loved his co-worker who wouldn't hire black people. It was so . . . strange. I could easily see some kind of cocktails being involved there.

[Bluebear]

29. Oh yes, I was sent a nastygram from the moderators re: "Political Tiger"

Threatened with suspension, the whole shebang, for seeing through that phony.

Hey diddle diddle.

[QC]

30. Well, his duplicity finally boomeranged on him. n/t

[William769]

34. ...

:hug:

[CreekDog]

17. more because now i know how quickly DU can deal with a moderator

and how swiftly and clearly they can take action.

provided they think it's serious enough to warrant the action.

and what's serious enough? therein lies the rub.

[Lex]

20. yes, they can move swiftly when so inclined . . .

[FreeState]

18. More of the same unfortunateley.

You can't expect users to change, it has to come from the top down.

[enigmatic]

23. Haven't been on DU since the Mending Fences thread

By chance I read DU yesterday and saw the thread in GD and spent the night reading it; I guess nothing ever did change. And after reading the thread, I doubt it will.

You will never lose me as an ally, ever. I'll always stand w/ you to fight for the rights I have as a straight man, and I'll never stop, or compromise.

[Heidi]

28. :thumbsup:

:hug:

[Prism]

31. Strangely better

Because there was an excellent, clarifying post by Lyric that really crystallized thoughts and questions I'd been toying around with in my head for a long time that never progressed much further than amorphous.

It went something along the lines of "How can people be so dismissive of gay people, bait them, brow beat them, taunt them, denigrate them, and mock them without being homophobic? How are the ones who always have nasty things to say about people like Dan Choi not raging bigots?" Homophobia seemed the obvious term. And yet the people who do that insist to the last they are not.

Then Lyric talked about how people can support equality in theory, in rhetoric, but they will never pay any cost for it. Not political, not personal. They will risk nothing. They will never stick their necks out. They will never actually be there in flesh - only in a shadowy, intangible, unusable spirit.

And that made me realize. Wait, these aren't homophobes.

These are ASSHOLES.

And assholes are much easier to deal with once you've identified them. Somehow, you don't take it so personally. "Wait, you're not a homophobe, you're just a rotten human being."

I don't know why, but that's calmed me right down. So this is the kind of place that approves of assholes galloping all over threads. So be it. Not the kind of site I'd want to run, but it's not my digs. Let them have that reputation for this site if they're so desperate to protect it - which they clearly seem to be.

It seems like a simple realization, but it took Lyric to really make it click for me.

[mitchtv]

33. a combination of things

sad, and a little distressed that I can't keep up. Delighted to see all the people I admire come out for the occasion. the usual list supporters seemed quieter by and large.

[MNBrewer]

36. I would call how I feel now "alienated" rather than agitated.

That thread Skinner started is alienating in my view. I have no desire to participate in it. It's also made it clear that I am not a Democrat (I'm a democrat). The Democratic Party does not stand for equality under the law, it's just that simple. It stands for something ever so slightly to the left of the status quo, and while that is moving rightward, the net result is a rightward drift for the party.

[DURHAM D]

51. I don't think the recent battles have anything to do with the Democratic Party -

it is only about the Committee to Re-Elect Obama.

Don't let Obama and his worshipers drive you from the party - yet.

[One_Life_To_Give]

43. Too early to tell IMO

People don't change their beliefs immediately when confronted. They dig in and defend. Later they may (or may not) digest what has been said and alter their views.

[Zorra]

49. I feel better, and more hopeful.

I think Skinner's thread had an overall generally positive impact, and gained our community several more staunch allies. I believe that the thread helped to increase, to some degree, depending on the individual, the understanding of the depth of the injustice of our situation in the hearts and minds of our already very aware and concerned progressive non-LGBT brothers and sisters.

Yes, we encountered some of the same old garbage that we've been dealing with all of our lives, but realistically, it was only a few posters that were spewing slime -- they just had a lot of posts in the thread.

I truly believe that there were a lot of positives, in many different realms, that came out of that thread.

There were several very clear, profound, and very insightful posts made there that could not help but make a positive impact on any thinking, feeling person that read them, some of them written by non-GLBT DUers.

I really believe it was a step or two forward for us.

Now I gotta get ready for Pride in the Pines!

Wooo-hooo!:bounce:
:grouphug:

[Chovexani]

52. I cut back on DU a long time ago

And seriously, I miss a ton of people, but at the end of the day my blood pressure thanks me.

[QC]

55. Do you remember what a comfort this place was in the early days?

The Coup made it seem like the world had been knocked out from under us, and I was living in a very conservative area. When I found DU in the spring of 2001 I found a refuge.

Now, well, it's more like high school--bullies and cheerleaders all over the damn place.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

54. I'm still here.