I quit the Democrats a while back and I think I made the right decision

[Brian_Expat]

Here are the Democrats in a HUGE upsweep after Bush gets beaten down.

Now, they say they cannot pursue gay equality because it's "too unpopular." But they want to institute socialized health care, which is less popular than civil unions.

They want to increase taxes to balance the budget, which is an unpopular position.

But go to bat for us and basic freedom -- and risk a little popularity on THAT "tough decision?" No way, Jose.

Here's what Hillary Clinton said about gay marriage a couple of months ago:

My position is consistent. I support states making the decision. If you go the next step and say, 'But I want what is called marriage,' you're going to have a problem.

Very few Democrats spoke , because maybe you thought one way, which is that you want people out there speaking for us. We thought . . . force the Republicans out there, make them look like they're trying to enshrine discrimination in the Constitution.

Here's what Dick Cheney said in the 2000 VP debate:

I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions and that's appropriate. I don't think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area.

So six years, millions of gay votes, and tens of millions of dollars in gay campaign contributions later, we get Hillary Clinton mouthing Dick Cheney on gay issues while Democrats continue to insist we stay second-class citizens but push really hard for everything that THEY want.

I think I made the right decision.

[mike_c]

1. K&R-- dems need to stop the political triangulation....

eom

[brentspeak]

2. That's nice. So what are you doing here on DU?

[demnan]

3. Maybe you did

Because if you can't see health care as a problem, you aren't a Democrat. As for gay marriage, they can't stop it no matter what they do. My co-worker is gay and married in Canada last year. When they passed the anti-gay amendment in Virginia (my party, the Democrats worked against it, your party the Republicans worked for it) he didn't suddenly become unmarried. On the other hand, I have two brothers and a diabetic niece who do not have health care.

[Brian_Expat]

6. Your way or the highway, eh?

I chose the highway.

Incidentally, the Republicans made the same demands of their constituents who, for instance, didn't agree on anti-gay laws.

Look where that's gotten them.

[Kelvin Mace]

4. You put your finger

on yet one of MANY reasons Hilary is a poor choice for 2008.

We don't need anymore spineless, Vichy Democrats.

[trumad]

7. it's 2 L's Kevin....Hilary not. Hillary ....

[IndyOp]

22. Lol! It's KeLvin Mace -- not Kevin. Cute 'dropped L' problem there... (n/t)

:hi:

[trumad]

42. LOL

;-)

[trumad]

5. So how did you vote this last election?

[Brian_Expat]

8. A mixture

Democrats for federal office, Dems and independents for local office, and one Republican (who was a liberal running against an anti-gay conservative Democrat).

I voted mostly to get the Republicans out of power, not because I really believed in the Dem party, I have to say.

[trumad]

9. So you voted for something you didn't believe in...WOW

[Brian_Expat]

10. I didn't have a choice

And that's my core point.

Neither Democrats nor Republicans have given most Americans something to believe in. Which is why Democrats' insistence on my absolute loyalty, while they display -- at BEST -- contempt for gays which is just a little less than the Republicans, is so alien.

The Democrats are mistaken if they believe that a vote against Bush is a vote FOR their agenda -- including the anti-gay stuff or not embracing equality. If they expect gay people to take huge lumps for tax increases (which we might not agree with) or socialized medicine (which many of us don't agree with) while they sit and repeat Dick Cheney lines, they'll have another thing coming in two to four years.

Edit: I did consider not voting at all, or writing in candidates. There weren't many third-party candidates on the ballot.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Nice. And you make his point in spades.

Have you considered backing off and actually listening to the point he's trying to make?

[Brian_Expat]

14. Would you say the same thing to Cindy Sheehan. . .

. . . about the war?

Or Sarah Brady, about gun control?

Or Patricia Ireland, about abortion?

Or to the AARP about Social Security?

I doubt it.

Yet you're quite happy to say it to gay people -- who have been reliable Democrat voters, campaigners and contributors for over a decade now -- with precious little to show for it.

And yes, after spending money, time, etc. pushing for all your stuff, I don't think it's unreasonable to have my Constitutional rights respected -- and advocated -- by "my" party. The fact that they wouldn't do so tells me that it wasn't "my" party to begin with.

[LostinVA]

35. Great answer n/t

[sniffa]

20. um, that was my deciding factor in this past eLection

anyone against marriage in my state (masshoLe) did not get my vote, regardLess of their party affiLiation.

fuck them.

our state reps, and state senator for our city (quincy) aLL voted for the constitutionaL amendment writing descrimination into our state constitution; aLL 3 are democrats; aLL 3 ran unopposed; and aLL 3 got a write-in candidate from me - asshoLe.

to be fair however, one of our reps apparentLy had a change of heart, because he voted to recess the convention Last week - effectiveLy kiLLing the amendment.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

43. Who's full of shit?

Just because equal rights isn't one of your core issues doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't me someone else's.

Given how little support we get from Dems, a caucus from both sides of the isle that supports our equal rights is an attractive option. What do you have to offer that's better?

Yes, there are other issues. GLBT have a history of juggling issues to try to support a wide range of progressive issues. It's the narrow minded straight people who insist that somehow our equal rights don't fit into the limited number of issues they can possibly support.
:eyes:

[Lasher]

15. Well at least you voted

I'm not going to give absolute loyalty to anyone. I prefer instead to think and wish more people would do the same.

The Democratic party, overall, is and will continue to be more supportive of equal rights than Republicans. Just watch and see how many times anti-gay legislation comes up in Congress over the next 2 years. Or go tell the Freepers what you think we should do to support equal rights and see how much respect you get from them.

We can't exclude any one of our principles, not equal rights and not enhancing social programs, because we are a big tent, a caolition. Most of us, hopefully, have similar beliefs, but they will never be identical. There has to be at least a little of something for everyone.

But if support for equal rights is the only Democratic principle with which you agree, you might find better rapport with the Log Cabin Republicans.

[Brian_Expat]

16. False choice

You're arguing for a binary choice -- that if I don't support every element of the Democrats' schemes, I must be a Republican.

I don't support either party's primary planks. Which means that if I decide to consistently support a party, it's because they're going to bat for gays.

Not "being less bad than the Republicans," (which isn't hard to do).

And if the answer the Democrats dish out on gay issues is "if you don't like it, leave," then people will do that.

The Republicans told their libertarian and moderate voters the same thing when they complained about the Patriot Act, the war, the anti-gay stuff, etc. The Republican moderate and libertarian voters took them up on it -- they left -- and the results of their decision to leave were plain to see in last week's election results.

[Buzz Clik]

12. Great post.

I truly hope that the DU is not a reflection of the Democrats in general because, as you can see from some of the comments you've received, a lot of vocal contributors do not embody the ideals of the Democratic Party. Hillary made her comments in an effort to gain support from a broader base -- understandable but not quite forgivable.

The intolerance toward even slightly different opinions and concepts here at DU is shocking to me.

Trying to get the attention and commitment from our national leaders is frustrating and borders on unacceptable.

[trumad]

24. Uh lets see...guy can't stand dems. guy post on a forum clearly for Dems

yeah I wonder why he receives negative comments.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. You got that right

I've been accused of being a "one issue" advocate, but equal standing before the law is an extremely important issue, one that would cost very little for the Democratic leaders to support. I can only conclude that their outright refusal to support equal marriage and their support of Jim Crow, separate and entirely unequal "civil unions" is rooted in bigotry. And I have other things to do than deal with the bigotry of others.

[Brian_Expat]

18. That was my take too

And judging from the reception I've received, it wasn't a bad decision to make.

[bowens43]

19. If you're a one issue voter, you won't be happy anywhere.

[Brian_Expat]

21. I'm not a one-issue voter

I'm a voter who demands that my vote be earned -- and who especially demands that my support be earned.

And the undying protection of the Constitutional rights of every citizen of this country -- popular or unpopular -- isn't just a "single" issue, it's the ONLY issue.

In fact, I think that anyone who disagrees with that is unAmerican.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. You may as well give up

In my experience, the vast majority of DUers feel that they own us, lock, stock and barrel. If we don't smile and dance for them and greet them with "Yes, Massah", they get all self-righteous and pissy.

[sniffa]

30. uh-oh

you're gonna get the trumad wrath.

[Dhalgren]

23. I agree with you, but in a broader sense. The problem with the

Democratic Party, and maybe with our system as a whole, is that the population and the issues concerning it are divided into "interest groups" and dealt with as separate entities. They are not. All of the issues we hold near and dear are, in actuality, the same, single issue. Complete and un-infringed equality for all citizens, total health care coverage for all citizens, the stopping of wars for profit or conquest, the adherence to universal human rights, access to complete educational opportunities for every citizen who can take advantage of them, peace, freedom, the complete and un-infringed reproductive rights for every woman, a living wage, an end to poverty, the protection of our planet and our environment, and the list goes on. This is one principle, this is democracy. Few of our politicians can make this case (I think Dennis Kucinich does an excellent job of doing just that), but we have to make the determination, ourselves, that we must have this all, not because it is good for one or another interest group, but because it is good for all.

I want total and complete equality for GLBT, not for that segment of society, but for the whole society. So, before some of the Mandarins come on and tell me I am naive, let me say that I do agree with you and I hope that this Party will begin at some point to understand that the old politics of dividing groups against each other and having them fight over scraps is the real "principles" that brought us to the place we are, now, as a nation.

[Liberal Veteran]

25. We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

Right now, I'm MUCH MORE concerned about the nearly 3000 dead American servicemen and the tens of thousands of innocent civilians that have died because of the republican party.

If that means I have to wait a little longer to get married, at least I'll be alive. A pity the same can't be said for those who came home in a body bag.

[The Count]

31. Excellent post! Lives are a priority. Elections as well, as without them

nothing else is to be realized. War, torture - my non-negotiable issues.
It's not that ANY CIVIL RIGHT (including gays' right to marry) is any less valuable to me, but dead people cannot have rights, and without voting rights all this discussion would be moot.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. you say some of the most touching and sensible things on this board.

:hug:

[dubykc]

27. I fully agree with your points about the equal right of gays...

but which party in existence today support equal rights, gay or otherwise, more than the Democratic Party?

Personally I think it better to stay with the party and work within it to steer the party toward your ultimate goals.

I am in California and worked very hard to defeat Prop22 a few years ago which would have banned all gay marriages, and I continue to work toward fixing the huge double standard that exists when it come to the rights of gay couples and eliminating the separate but incredibly unequal "civil unions" term as it currently exists.

Fixing this inequality will be a long hard road, but, in my opinion, one that is well worth the battle, and I still feel the Democratic Party is the best choice to get the changes made.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Pat Robertson pointed out that conservatives will lose over this issue.

However, timing is everything. Remember Hillary and Bill tried to do both, push gay rights and universal health in the first two years of Bill's first term and because of it, Newt Gingrich sweeped in this horrible period in our history. Please don't forget that, because there's a lesson in there about timing. So push, but don't push so that the conservatives can take your momentum and turn it around against you.

As for timing, it looks like support for universal health is here. People know that something needs to be done.

[Tyo]

29. Not much choice right now

The Dems as a party will continue to put us on on the back burner until every other issue that's important to them has been addressed. Having said that. those "other" issues are also important to me. For that reason I'll support the party of benign neglect rather than the party that wants to kick the shit out of us. Doesn't mean I don't wish we had better options though.

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. If you build it, they will come

If we want better options, we need to create those options ourselves.

[Tyo]

36. Careful there cowboy

You're starting to sound like one of those uppity queers. I'll be you flaunt too, don't you?

Seriously, I'm not very experienced in activism. Okay, not at all experienced. What sorts of things do you have in mind?

[TechBear_Seattle]

37. If I said anything more, the post would be deleted and I would likely get banned

The moderators of DU aren't exactly open-minded when it comes to pointing out the shortcomings of the Democratic Party, much less comments supporting an alternative. :eyes:

[trumad]

39. The alternative? What the Green Party?

This is what we got albeit not perfect...BUT GOD DAMN it, we just wrestled control from a monster and people are pissed because it aint happening fast enough.

[saracat]

34. I haven't made a decision to leave but they are treating choice the same way

and then are wondering why women stay home and don't vote! I really just don't get this.The traditional constituencies are being shunted aside in order to make political capital.I really do understand your point. But I wish you would come back and pressure them into changing their approach. Gay issues have a much better chance with Dems than anyone else. And BTW they accuse me of being a one issue voter as well.But I think basic human rights and dignity for all people IS the issue.All the other issues stem from the fact that as a nation we are lacking that respect.

[trumad]

40. Gay issues have a much better chance with Dems--EXACTLY

Oh but the OP says us Dems are bad...bad...tax raisers.

For fucks sake.

[jonnyblitz]

38. I don't blame you. I mostly hold my nose when I vote Dem.

they are a tad bit more tolerable than the GOP but just barely.

[trumad]

41. I'm a Dem and you're saying I'm "a tad bit more tolerable than the GOP"

is that what you're saying?

[jonnyblitz]

44. are you a politician? do i get to vote for you?

jesus christ!!! you need to get a grip!!!

[sniffa]

47. the way you're acting here, no you're not

you're fucking worse. at Least i know where they stand.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. cos ofcourse republicans are SO MUCH BETTER FOR US

:eyes:

[TechBear_Seattle]

48. Why should me and mine have to make a decision between...

... those who want to kill us outright, and those who would rather ignore us until we are dead from neglect?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wickerman]

50. locking

locking

While the original post was on the margins of a violation of DU rules (Working against Dem candidates) we decided to let it go for a bit. Unfortunately, it's now turned for the worse and it needs locked.