Is your sexual orientation a choice for you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

had you been in a country like iran would you be straight...hypothetically what would happen to you?

[wryter2000]

1. Where's "hell, no"?

If I check "are you out of your mind?" I can't check "no."

[Sapphocrat]

21. Where's "Fuck, no!"? n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. What the (censored) matter does it make? n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. i just want to know whether under less accepting circumstances

all of a sudden gays would be straight or straights gay..

there was an argument made in another thread about this...i wanted to know how people feel about it

[NMMNG]

50. ....

i just want to know whether under less accepting circumstances all of a sudden gays would be straight or straights gay..

I'd still be gay but I'd be single and celibate if at all possible. If I were forced to marry a man because of societal rules I might do so and deal or I might just find a way out.

[Deep13]

3. I don't think I chose it.

I never really had to think about it. In Iran I would still be straight.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. lol

its nice to not ever have to think about it.

[jonnyblitz]

6. the only choice i made was to come out of the closet.

In Iran I would probably be in the closet or dead or in prison.

[lvx35]

7. What does that even mean?

If I can choose to be with either women or men, that would automatically make my orientation "bisexual". So what specifically does this question address?

[Rob H.]

8. Not a choice for me

Although I have heard rumors about some sort of toaster I'm supposed to get if I switch teams. Hmm....

:P

[Sapphocrat]

22. Sorry, Rob...

The toaster is the lesbian prize. You'll have to ask one of the guys what they give away. ;)

[davidinalameda]

42. screw toasters

we give food processors

:bounce:

[Rob H.]

68. Sweet!

I don't have one of those! :)

[davidinalameda]

69. and none of this cheap Wal-Mart crap

we buy direct from Williams and Sonoma

[adamblast]

9. If I lived in Iran (or Utah, for that matter)...

...I'd probably be like the majority of gay men in those places. Married and living a double life--screwing up other people's lives because there's no way to live with self-respect and dignity as an openly gay man in those cultures.

[William769]

10. I'd like to know who the idiots are that voted yes.

:eyes:

[adamblast]

12. Huh? Are you saying...

...that they *couldn't* have chosen to be gay? Or *shouldn't* have chosen it?

Let's not hitch 100% of our "right to be gay" rationale on it being biological or a non-choice. If someone *wants* to be gay, let's let them do it, rather than calling them an idiot for it. It's not a *wrong* answer. :)

[William769]

13. I never have and never will consider it or believe it a choice.

Same with Heterosexuals.

[adamblast]

14. I've known too many political lesbians to say...

...that choice is never involved with being gay.

I do agree that most people, men particularly, seem to have a "natural orientation" detirmined before puberty.

[foreigncorrespondent]

17. Really?

Care to back that little claim up with verifiable proof? I happen to be a lesbian, and know there was no choice involved.

[mongo]

71. Have you ever slept with a man?

Have you ever known any lesbians that had previously slept with men?

Sexuality is a continuum.

[foreigncorrespondent]

76. Yes as a matter of fact!

I don't deny it, and have never tried to hide that part of my past.


I was in a relationship with a man for almost 15 years of my life. I had always had feelings for women, but due to social pressure I pushed those feelings aside to the point of making myself the worlds biggest homophobe. Something I am not proud of, but something I thought would help me get over what was happening to me when a woman would come close, or further touch me and try to pursue something more with me. After 15 years of living a straight life I realized straight is something I would never be. Sex with my male partner was never satisfying for me. And the relationship in general? Wasn't what I imagined being truly in love would be like. So after 15 years I sat him down and came out to him. He was the first I ever came out to. He understood, even though he was hurt. But realized a relationship with me would never amount to anything but hurt, because he wouldn't be able to give me exactly what I needed in life. And I would never be able to turn straight or even bisexual.

That was 7 (almost 8) years ago. For the last 6 (almost 7) years now, I have been with Sapphocrat. And to this day, and with 8,000 miles between us I can honestly say, I am finally fulfilled in my life. My life was meant to be one that I would spend with another woman. Can't deny how we are born.

[ThomCat]

18. "men particularly"

So does that mean that you think women do choose their sexuality?

:popcorn:
This should be good.

[foreigncorrespondent]

19. Yes I shall join you, Thom...

:popcorn:

[ThomCat]

20. Here, have a beer too.

:toast:

Popcorn can make you thirsty. :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

24. I just cracked out a bottle of wine. This might take awhile.

A nice Argentinean Cabernet.

DU needs a wine smiley.

:popcorn:

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. Ooooooo...

...which one, and what is it like?

[foreigncorrespondent]

26. Thank you Thom...

...my tongue was sticking to the roof of my mouth. ;)

:toast:

[adamblast]

25. No, I'd never make such a sweeping claim....

I would hazard to *guess* that women's sexual orientation may well be somewhat more fluid than men's, but wouldn't presume to know the cause. It's obviously quite a generalization. Why men seem a bit more hard-wired sexually, I have no idea: Not only are the sexes full of hormonal and biological differences, but socialization could just as easily play a factor.

Like sexual orientation itself, the truth may be that there's no single answer, only a host of possible factors that are unique with each person.

[ThomCat]

27. That seems to boil down to a belief

that women are more generally bisexual. Even if that were true (and I've seen no research or even anecdotal evidence of that) bisexuality is no more a choice than being straight or being a lesbian.

[adamblast]

32. I suspect it's less a matter of natural bisexualism than...

...than a difference in the way the sexes are encouraged to think about relationships. Boys and girls still get very different messages in this society about love and sex.

(I'd also hazard that the erection-response plays a part in making males more strictly visual--which cuts down on the *ambiguity* of eventual male self-labeling. But what do I know? Not much.)

[mongo]

72. Maybe we are all to some degree bisexual

Kinsey didn't find that many hard zeros or sixes in his studies.

[Zhade]

83. Wow, does my life ever prove your guess wrong!

I'm pansexual, used to think I was bisexual until I realized I don't care at all about gender - I can date straight through to trans, makes no difference to me if the person is right.

My attractions fluctuate constantly. Some days guys really turn me on; other days women. I never stop being attracted to both, but the focus shifts. It's probably hormonal.

So we guys are not NEARLY as hard-wired as you believe we are.

[Kerrytravelers]

74. Honey, bring that bag of popcorn and sit next to me!

:popcorn: :popcorn:


Are you a fan of Guinness?



Or would you like a light beer?




Bottoms up!

[Sapphocrat]

23. Honey, any woman who tells you she chose to be a lesbian...

...for "political" reasons or otherwise, is full of shit -- and bullshitting you.

[adamblast]

29. On the other hand....

...I've known maybe half-a-dozen "Anne Heche" types, who claim they are lesbian only to go back to men as soon as their one-and-only female relationship breaks up. "I don't fall in love with a gender; I fall in love with a *person*" is their typical response.

[ThomCat]

30. And that might definitely be true.

But that means they're bisexual. I'm bisexual, and while I favor men I have been known for fall for a woman. I'm currently dating a woman.

That still doesn't make sexuality a choice.

[Sapphocrat]

31. Those women are bisexual...

...and in complete denial about being bisexual.

As for Anne Heche, I'm not convinced she was even bisexual -- only an opportunist piggybacking on Ellen's career.

She's also completely psychotic, so find a better example. LOL

[adamblast]

33. Psychotic?

...I'm sure at least *one* of the dozens of people she claims are living inside her is perfectly sane! :D

[Sapphocrat]

35. Could be...

...but even if they're saying anything remotely sensible, I don't know anyone who can translate Celestian. LOL

[LostinVA]

34. Oh, this should be soooo good

:popcorn:

[mondo joe]

47. You may know women who chose a behavior, but not an orientation.

[readmoreoften]

52. What is a political lesbian? I'm political and I'm a lesbian.

What? Being a lesbian is some political act? Yeah, that's called fooling around in college until you realize that you're straight. That's not being a lesbian.

[Jamastiene]

64. So with women, it is a beat them to fit, paint them to match sort of

situation with you, huh? If you honestly think women choose it but men do not, you have got another thing coming.


:popcorn:

[terrya]

36. It gives the bigots exactly what they want.

THEY'RE the ones who loudly proclaim that it's just a "choice". And then when we demand full equality, then we get the "special rights" shit thrown in our faces.

Don't kid yourself, saying one's sexual orientation is a "choice" does have repercussions.

[adamblast]

38. Gay rights does not *depend* on gay being genetic....

...and that's a good thing, because there's unlikely to ever be anything concrete enough to call "proof" on the matter; science just isn't that simple, nor is human behavior.

Do athiests deserve equal rights? Do Jews deserve equal rights? These things are clear choices, and yet we believe they deserve equality--or at least, we should.

It is dangerous ground to say being gay is OK *BECAUSE* we didn't choose it. As our enemies often point out, there are a host of behaviors that we all rightly abhor which *may* have genetic underpinnings. Like war-mongering. :)

Being natural doesn't excuse *anything*. There's nothing more natural than rape and murder, for example, if you're going to use the animal kingdom as your guide.

Now as I have said, *I* certainly had no choice in the matter, and most people feel the same way. But what of it? That's not *why* I feel I deserve equality.

I deserve equality because there is nothing wrong with being gay. Because "being gay is wrong" has no good rationale behind it, only history. I contend I have a right to be gay, whether I chose it or not.

[NMMNG]

54. Atheism is not a choice

I didn't choose to lose my faith, and unless clear and convincing evidence of god(s) is presented to me I can never get it back. I can no sooner believe in god(s) by choice than I can believe in Santa or unicorns.

[Vorta]

41. I choose not to debate genetics with the fundies

Most of them are too ignorant to understand how a genetic trait could be perpetuated in the absence of reproduction by those in which it presents. They absolutely refuse to consider that it might be a beneficial trait, ie that tribes with this gene have "extra" adults to hunt, defend, do chores, or care for children.

I opt for the "it doesn't matter if it is or isn't" argument. If they re going to come to the table with scripture, I can come to the table with nothing more than the Constitution (and logic).

[readmoreoften]

59. I agree with that.

I didn't choose to be gay anymore than I chose to be good at academics and terrible at sports. I think the obsession homosexuality/transexuality having an "origin story" is a bad idea. Fuck them. They'll give me my rights and I don't have to give them reasons.

[Maven]

37. This is an argument advanced by hardcore social constructionists.

It is severely flawed.

[adamblast]

39. Which argument? n/t

[Maven]

46. Social constructionists often blather

that sexual identity is a social artifact. They begin from that faulty premise, and conclude that we should abandon the idea of minority status and instead push for rights solely as a matter of individual liberty for all.

It's crap.

[Jamastiene]

65. Me too. I am placing my bet on those

who do not own dictionaries or those who refuse to believe the truth. It is probably a mixture of both in reality though.

[William769]

66. Your being nicer with you comment than I ever could.

Thats why I left this thread. No matter what I try to write it would surly get deleted. does that tell you what I think of these type of people?

[terrya]

11. Emphatically NOT a choice.

Hell, I knew I liked boys in grade school....this was Decatur, Illinois, in Central Illinois in the 60's. Hardly the epitome of gay life.

If I was in Iran, I'd probably be beheaded or whatever the fuck they do to gay people over there.

[jonnyblitz]

16. they hang them. there are pictures on the internet, sadly. nt

[foreigncorrespondent]

15. The only choice I made...

...when Sapph and I were meeting in person for the first time was, what the fuck was I going to wear? LOL

[davidinalameda]

55. did you wear underwear

:bounce:

[foreigncorrespondent]

77. Oh the first date, yes!!!

Second date I went braless. Thought I had better have easy access to something for her. ;)

[ruggerson]

40. The only people who can choose

are bisexuals.

I could no more choose to be straight than I could choose to sprout wings.

And to pretend that some people *do* choose is a very destructive, fallacious premise that only serves to embolden the religious rightwing.

[davidinalameda]

43. thank you

why would anyone even start a thread like this

it's offensive

[mitchtv]

45. I can't speak for anyone else but me

there was never any choice, in fact i chose to be straight, then bisexual neither "took". Attracted to men from earliest memories, and I suspect most Gay men are the same, Although, there could be contrarian gays who can chose to be so.

[Zhade]

84. I take issue with that.

I'm pansexual, which might as well be bisexual, and I don't 'choose' which gender(s) I'm attracted to.

[donheld]

101. "I'm pansexual"

Pans turn you on? :shrug: :silly:

[TaleWgnDg]

44. Sexual orientation is immutable. That is, unchangeable. Hence,

.

Sexual orientation is immutable. That is, unchangeable. Hence, it is not a choice, not a preference.

And, once scientific evidence backs that up, gays will be protected in law across America. Tis as simple as that. Which is why, btw, the unChristian rightwingnuts want to cast sexual orientation as a "preference" thus "changeable" emboldened in law if they can.

As for any country that allows discrimination -- and worse -- against GLBTs such as Islamic countries who do not separate Church and State, of course GLBTs will be forced to not reveal who they are or their sexual orientation, to the point of denying their sexual orientation activity including marrying opposite sex partners. Why raise an eyebrow to this?

.

[mongo]

73. Sexuality is a continuum

Not some genetic straight/gay switch.

That doesn't mean that you will chose who you will be sexually attracted to, but who you act on it with is a choice.

The biggest danger to fundies is for society to accept that people are naturally bisexual.

[election_2004]

86. Speak for yourself

Many people are indeed bisexual (to varying degrees), but I can assure you I am a 100% homosexual male! And damn proud of it!

[Raster]

48. Science has discovered what causes homosexuality....

Tracklights, white wine and quiche.

[readmoreoften]

53. Only in men, my friend, only in men.

FOr us it's all tofu and toolbelts, good buddy.

[Raster]

56. and Birkenstocks. Damn!! I knew that.

How you doing, Luv? I'm a gay man married to a lovely bisexual woman. Dearest of friends. When we go to Lowes I head for the garden section or kitchen wares. Michelle heads for power tools. It's all good.

[readmoreoften]

60. No birkenstocks in my household. Lots of tattoos, hair products, power tools.

We have a drill press too.

[NMMNG]

49. It's definitely a choice

I was verbally, psychologically and physically tortured by my peers my entire childhood. As a result I became addicted to being treated like sh*t by people. That's why I decided to become a lesbian, because I heard how much discrimination they face, and how likely I was to face more abuse and even the possibility of murder. Just for more sh*ts and giggles I decided to be an atheist too, since they're the least trusted people in America. :sarcasm:

[readmoreoften]

51. I'm innately a dyke as far as I can tell. But if I could choose it, I would.

I hate that stupid meme "Of course they can't choose it! Who would choose to be gay??!!" Even if I wasn't "born" gay I would still choose it if I could. I'm luckier in love than most straight people I know. Okay, okay, I'm luckier in love than ALL straight people I know.

[Raster]

57. After my glib, flip, white wine comment, I thought I'd add the real McCoy

I am Gay. I was born Gay. From the time I can remember playing with my male cousin(s) at age four and five, I was attracted to him(them). I was not attracted to my female cousin. The only choice I ever had was how I dealt with it.

[cboy4]

58. NOT a choice, of course. And since I'm preaching to the choir:

I miss my T.V. family, dammit!
I LOVED the Queer As Folk baby!

Not sure why this thread prompted this reaction!

[William769]

67. Your not the only one!

:cry:

[nofurylike]

61. it was like that here. they tortured us; murdered, gang-raped/

gang-sodomized, with impunity (called us "freebies"!!); battered us, took our children and homes and jobs away; banished us from emergency shelters...
electroshocked lobotomized 'aversion therapied'(aka, poisoned and other tortures)

well, once it was no longer a capital crime, as in, execution, not that very long before some still living now.

(not even to mention those 'fortunate enough' to :sarcasm: 'only' have their inheritances robbed away)

that is WHY queers were willing to die and WORSE, to be out and change it. and WHY it is so DEVASTATING and HORRIFYING to see things crashing backwards so shockingly fast.

thank you for asking


peace and solidarity, always!

[nofurylike]

62. interesting pertinent statement:

A. Rich:
"Heterosexuality has been both forcibly and subliminally imposed on women, yet everywhere women have resisted it, often at the cost of physical torture, imprisonment, psychosurgery, social ostracism, and extreme poverty... 'Compulsory heterosexuality' was named as one of the 'crimes against women' by the Brussels Tribunal on Crimes against Women in 1976."

(of course, i recognize similar happened to men too)

http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500compulsoryhet.htm

[nofurylike]

63. and, no, not choice. born dyke. and happy to be, eom

[Vorta]

70. Is being fabulous a choice? Remember when everyone was fabulous?

[Kerrytravelers]

75. I don't remember choosing to be straight, so how can I logically think anyone would

choose to be gay? It seems to me to be a completely natural thing.


And if- and I did say a big if- being LGBT were somehow a choice, conscious or not, I'm still endlessly curious how it is #1, my business and #2 inherently wrong.

[FernBell]

78. Well, OF COURSE it's a choice!!!

I CHOOSE to follow my natural sexual impulses! No closet, no denial. I CHOOSE to be ME!!!

[baby_mouse]

79. No.

And the idea that it's a choice is irrelevant anyway.

[election_2004]

80. No, I've never been attracted to women

Why should I try to live a lie, and potentially hurt another female human being by trying to form a false relationship with a person of the opposite sex?

[Crim_n al]

81. It stinks that it matters whether or not it is a choice.

Love, sex, physical attraction, they are all wonderful.

And, so long as adults are not involving children, it's nobody's fucking business who another
person feels these things for.

The fact that we have to show we don't have a choice to have a chance of being accepted is just
proof of what an pruriently intrusive, controlling society we live in.

[election_2004]

85. Also, how does anyone "prove" that it is or isn't a choice....?

The issue seems to be a Catch 22.

If the scientific community discovers a "gay gene" or some other biological/chemical/environmental cause for homosexuality, the wingnuts will insist that it's the government's responsibility to "cure" us.

If we are unable to "prove" that it isn't our choice, then we're accused of wanting "special rights" for "choosing to be different."

[NMMNG]

87. Bingo

We're screwed either way as long as some choose to see being GLBT as wrong/bad/flawed/inferior/deviant/etc. It will not be until it is seen as just another facet of normal human sexuality that we will be truly safe and privy to the equal rights we deserve.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

82. No

It says a lot to me that social conservatives consider sexual orientation to be a "choice." Like they're choosing to repress their urges due to some religious brainwashing.

[bluedawg12]

88. The politics of the very, very private-sexuality

I have known those who are gay from birth and find it is as “un-natural” to be straight as a straight person would find it to be gay.

I have known those who are heterosexual from birth and credibly claim to have have no gay urges. I believe them.

I have known bisexuals, some who are serial bi-sexuals, and some who have gone from straight to gay relationships permanently.

This is, after all, the politicization of love and sexuality by the radical bigoted self- righteous and very selfish right. Selfish because it’s our way or no way at all.

To even speak of human sexual behavior in terms of politics and rights and bigotry is merely a mind boggling indicator of the dark times in which we live.

Having said this, the concept that human sexual behavior is a continuum, as is most of human behavior, the radical bigoted hate mongering right have introduced into the public debate the concept that tolerance for gays is a false concept because being gay is, in their mind, an abnormal state that does not deserve tolerance. In short, being gay, for the rabid right,is wrong and society should exhort gays to change because after all, it is a choice.

Never mind that, in this spectrum of gay-straight and bi-behavior, everyone is doing what they are actually capable of doing at the moment, and are acting on something highly private and very intrinsic to themselves.

If you listen carefully to the media spokesman for the homophobic right, they always speak in terms such as: hate the sin not the sinner.

Also, carefully choosing phrases to cloak their rabid homophobia, RW h-phobes also separate out “being gay,” from “gay behavior.” In this scenario, they seem to accept that being gay is intrinsic and the upshot of this form attempted domination is simply: if you are gay don’t act on your nature. Kind of contradicts the idea that being gay is optional doesn’t it?

As some have pointed out in this thread, why accept the idea that being in a gay relationship, or acting on gay sexuality is wrong in the first place? It is offensive to even have to defend who you are, how you feel and whom you feel about.

I agree- to a certain extent.

But for those who do choose to go into a public arena, friends, family, the media, the class room, to discuss this issue it is prudent to know the score and the common arguments and the best rebuttals.

So my thoughts:

Sexuality is intrinsic, in the sense of who one is attracted to. It is non-negotiable. It simply “is.”

Given that there are only two sexes, we have one of three options, gay, straight or bi.

To those who say, if being gay is accepted, then so should polygamy.
- Not the same argument. Polygamy is still a choice between two sexes, therefore, intrinsic.
How many of sexual partners of the chosen gender, one takes, is a social construct, as is living in a collective, a kibbutz, or a single family ranch in the suburbs.

To those who say (like the former public employee, Rick Satanorum), if being gay is accepted, then so should marrying your donkey or pet dog be accepted.
Again, human sexuality is a choice between humans of either of the two sexes. Male or female partner.
The discussion is not about human and animal sexuality.
This is a RW h’phobe argument meant to shock the busy public and is always good for a sound bite.

Real progress will be when some day, there won't need to be any discussions justiyfing who we love or why, and that love between consenting adults should be encouraged and supported and nurtured, as it is good for society and social stability. Face it, gays will always be with us.

[Zealot]

89. totally a choice

My sexual orientation is a choice to me but I think that it may not be in other people's cases. It has alot to do with the way you were raised by your parents and I think it might have something to do with genetics but I don't know about that one.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

90. Are you gay or straight? And when did you make this decision? nt

[Sapphocrat]

91. Wow, I hope you get de-programmed soon.

That kind of thinking will poison your brain.

[Jamastiene]

92. You honestly believe any parents would raise their kids to be gay?

Please elaborate. I am not sure I am understanding you.

[mondo joe]

93. Please tell how and when you made your choice.

Thank you.

[Kerrytravelers]

95. I don't remember choosing to be straight, so how can I logically think anyone would

I think it bears repeating because I can't believe I just read this on DU.


Pssst. Were you ever sent to one of those "re-education" camps by a mom and dad in denial of simply biology?

[Midlodemocrat]

96. Okey, dokey. This straight PhD in psych says that your sexual

orientation is about as much of a 'choice' as your eye color.

Sorry to burst your bubble dude. :eyes:

[foreigncorrespondent]

97. Your name speaks volumes about you. N/T

[Bluebear]

98. Welcome to DU and you're full of shit.

:hi:

[NMMNG]

99. Your post makes no sense

You say it's "totally a choice". Then you say It has alot to do with the way you were raised by your parents and I think it might have something to do with genetics


So which is it? A choice? The result of your upbringing? Something genetic? :crazy:

[nofurylike]

100. you lgbtqi? why not answer posts to you? eom

[donheld]

102. Yea right

:eyes:

[IntravenousDemilo]

94. No, and I'm amazed that anyone in DU would suggest such a thing.

Have you got a link to that other thread?

[donheld]

103. NO! it's not a choice!

get real.