Re: to the Quit Fighting letter (prop 8)

[Dragonbreathp9d]

Let me premise this by saying a sincere thank you to those of you, both gay and straight, who led the push against Prop 8. I also think it is important not to point fingers at certain groups of people who supported Prop 8, we all know how powerful the pull of the pulpit can be. However, this is not the time to stop fighting.
This is going to be an ongoing war of ideology that can only be won by ongoing marches and demonstrations. When Gandhi was jailed and worse laws were imposed against the people of India, he did not stop walking. When Martin Luther King was met by brutality, dogs and hoses, he did not stop walking. This is a civil rights issue very close to this straight man's heart, and I will never stop walking, never stop fighting, never stop trying to spread understanding and love, even though I'm walking uphill against the gravity and weight of hatred.
It is going to take another little lawyer from India, another unknown Preacher from the south, another voice of solidarity to bring gay, straight, atheist, agnostic, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu, black, white, brown, and everyone else in this magnanimous country together in support of equality. Its going to take perseverance, and possibly even civil disobedience. Some of us may reap the negative seeds of hatred planted by the opposition, we may be beaten by the ignorance of an insecure police force, but know, that there is no greater thing in this world to sacrifice for than equality.
We will overcome, we just elected our first African American to president, one day we will have a woman, and one day, we just may be celebrating our first GLBT president.
But we must keep walking.

[keepCAblue]

1. K&R....n/t

[Christa]

2. K & R nt

[Jamastiene]

3. K&R

And when anyone is violent toward us, our best bet is to do like Ghandi did and do like the marchers in the civil rights movement did; remain peaceful.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

4. Oh, and I'm going to try to host a rally

here in Denton so people up here dont have to go all the way down to Dallas on the 15th

[Duncan Grant]

5. It's been requested that gays stop using the civil rights movement as a model.

I think we can substitute Feminism and the women's rights movement and be better off anyway.

The Black experience and the gay experience are not the same thing. And it offends the Black community for gays to draw a comparison.

So, let's respect their wishes and stop looking to the civil rights movement. Blacks and gays need to have some serious dialog before that part of their culture becomes a part of our culture.

My deepest appreciation for your post! I agree completely. k&r

[intheflow]

6. I don't even like referring to GLBT struggles as civil rights.

They're human rights. It goes way beyond "civility."

[Duncan Grant]

7. How true. How true.

With that philosophy our capacity expands; it will refuse to contract. :thumbsup:

[intheflow]

9. And in addition to women's rights, etc.,

I wish we could adopt in toto the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights as an amendment to our Constitution. Because of it, for instance, all democratic member countries that have been created since the UNUDHR was written have the right to organize labor unions written into their constitutions. Wouldn't that be great if union organizing was a right to be protected from union busting? It also addresses marriage in such a way that it does not exclude same-sex couples from marrying. See my journal entry for the relevant excerpt. :hi:

[Duncan Grant]

10. Another great incentive!

I'm glad I stuck around this afternoon. :D

[shireen]

8. so right! nt

[foxfeet]

11. I agree. The term "Human Rights" cuts right to the basic truth.

It is an inalienable human right to give and receive love in consensual relationships. This is not something the government bestows. (Although I can't help but wonder how long it will be until we're accused of appropriating a term that "only can apply to starving children in Darfur or in Romanian orphanages.") The tangible results of government-granted benefits will follow. I'm also willing to avoid using the term "civil rights" if many AA folks find that offensive, PROVIDED those same people stop describing GLBT folks as having made a "choice."

[mitchtv]

12. Fat chance

:eyes:

[foxfeet]

13. You're probably right.

Ok, you ARE right.

[Maat]

14. Baloney!

It IS a civil rights movement - and refers to a legal concept. Also, the same legal concept, equal protection of the law, is used in both types of court precedent (caselaw). So, I will continue to compare it to prior civil rights movements. If someone doesn't like it ... tough! I don't care what they like or dislike.

A 'human rights' movement is fine also, but NO ONE, or no group, owns the term 'civil rights movement.'

[mitchtv]

15. doesn't that make you an R word?

Kidding of course

[Maat]

16. HeeHee.

You got me. What's the 'R' word?

Oh .... Geez, are people hauling that out? Pathetic.

(I know you're just teasing, Mitchtv.)

[mondo joe]

17. Fuck that. I can't pretend civil rights are not civil rights.

And we're not to blame for the bigotry of others.

[WillParkinson]

21. No. Sorry. Uh-uh.

I look at it like the Holocaust where some Jews were trying to get any reference to gays and lesbians, gypsies, etc taken out of memorials because the Holocaust was a Jewish thing.

Black people do NOT have a corner on struggles to get dignity. And the fact that they want gays and lesbians to stop pointing to them in their struggle shows how selfish groups can be about maintaining the martyrdom.

[The Brethren]

18. Well stated.

However, my gut tells me to go back in history involving battles over equality and progress and apply not only the peaceful and steady lessons learned, but also the ones that involved passion and effective use of anger. Such as in the case of an event within our community; Stonewall.

History shows that progress has been made by many approaches. I also feel, especially at this time, that it's important to point fingers at who supported Prop. 8, such as part of their supporters were Dems. It's important to know exactly who your enemies and who your allies are. And right now, some of our worst enemies are fellow Democrats, which is infuriating.

I also believe it's important to realize that not only do we share the prejudice, hatred, and struggles as other minorities, as well as women's rights, and so on, but also that gay people are the bottom of the barrel as far as many people are concerned. We are the most vile, threatening, and hated among all groups....except "terrorists". We can even be hated....to death, by own families. To many Americans, we are still subhuman to them. I mention this because the real issue going on with "marriage" amendments and the prejudice towards us, isn't really about marriages. It's an underlining desire of our enemies to literally make us disappear all together anyway they can.

[foxfeet]

19. Hence my willingness to use the term "Human Rights."

"I also believe it's important to realize that not only do we share the prejudice, hatred, and struggles as other minorities, as well as women's rights, and so on, but also that gay people are the bottom of the barrel as far as many people are concerned. We are the most vile, threatening, and hated among all groups....except "terrorists". We can even be hated....to death, by own families. To many Americans, we are still subhuman to them. I mention this because the real issue going on with "marriage" amendments and the prejudice towards us, isn't really about marriages. It's an underlining desire of our enemies to literally make us disappear all together anyway they can."

It's still way deeper than marriage rights.

[The Brethren]

20. Agreed. I like your use of "Human Rights".

Good point regarding it. I hadn't thought of it like that before, but you're right.

I think there's a false, paper-thin impression that we're so much accepted in our society. And we are certainly accepted much more then before - a lot more then when I was growing up. But I think the battle is going to get worse before it improves. A lot worse. Because by demanding legal marriages, us "butt-boys" are stepping out of that tiny area that homophobes will "tolerate" us to use. That's the cross road we're at: stay quiet and make no waves, least of all demand anything, thus be tolerated, or make a lot of noise til there are changes.