Top hospitals put unorthodox therapies into practice

[Celebration]

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/2008/01/09/embracing-alternative-care.html

"To be blunt, if my wife and I didn't think it was helping him, we wouldn't have continued with it," says Dan Polley. He's talking about Mikey, the Polleys' 2½-year-old in the next room, who was diagnosed with acute lymphocytic leukemia when he was 6 months old. Chemotherapy, radiation, and a bone marrow transplant have been crucial elements of Mikey's treatment. But the "it" his father speaks of is nothing like these aggressive, costly, and heavily researched exemplars of western care—it is a kind of touch therapy, from the camp of alternative medicine. Gentle and benign, "healing touch" is intended to rebalance the energy field that its practitioners believe surrounds the body and flows through it along defined pathways, affecting health when disrupted. Several times a week, therapist Lynne Morrison spends 20 minutes unblocking and smoothing Mikey's energy field, which energy healers like Morrison say they can feel and correct.

Before a recent session, Mikey was grouchy, drawing up his legs and issuing periodic yowls. His stomach hurt, said his father. But as the little boy nestled in his father's arms and Morrison moved her hands around his body, lightly resting them here and then there, his tenseness loosened and he quieted for a few minutes at a time. The Polleys believe that the therapy not only calms their son but is aiding his return to health.

The setting for the unorthodox therapy—an academic medical center—would have been startling just five or 10 years ago. Morrison is on the staff of Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago, a hard-nosed, tough-cases, research-oriented emblem of western medicine. It perennially ranks among America's premier hospitals and is the principal pediatric teaching hospital for Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine. And Mikey is only one of many children there receiving care that not long ago was called alternative medicine. Now it is more often called CAM, for complementary and alternative medicine, or integrative medicine, to avoid the loaded "alternative." The message the new labels are meant to convey is that the therapies more often go hand in hand with traditional medicine than substitute for it.

......................

"From where I sit," says Gaudet in the center's light-filled lobby, "if we could figure out a way to elicit a full therapeutic response to a placebo, that's not a bad thing—that's a good thing." She considers briefly, then smiles. "I'd call it an 'activated healing response,'" she says.

[Hydra]

1. Good

not all medicine comes in the form of a scalpel or poison.

[katsy]

2. Oh thank goodness.

At first glance, I thought they may have started waterboarding patients whose health wasn't improving.

[KatyaR]

3. There's something called the "TTouch" that is used on animals.

http://www.lindatellingtonjones.com/

I see now they're teaching it for use on humans. It makes total sense--why shouldn't we respond to touch?

I know that my dog is always more relaxed and less agitated after a good rubdown. She especially likes a good deep spine massage.

[Warpy]

47. It's why I always insist on staying with my kitty at the vet

I'm an old RN and tough as an old boot and my cat is a lot calmer when I'm there to help hold her for procedures.

I remember research years ago showing that blood pressure decreased in both humans and their dog or cat when they were engaged in a petting session. Touch is important.

It's been found that premature babies do much better if they're put on artificial sheepskin mattress covers than on smooth sheets. Just the tactile difference seems to calm them, decrease oxygen demand, and help them progress a little faster.

Light, nonthreatening touch can help build trust, just one of those tools we were taught how to use in nursing.

Plus, I've never seen a nervous preop patient able to stay awake after even the most perfunctory backrub.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Here in my neck of the woods

a patient had to have surgery, but was allergic to all the anesthetics. Luckily, one of the nurses on the staff was trained in acupuncture. He used this and the patient was able to undergo surgery and come through it with no complications.

It is wise to investigate methods that claim to work--wouldn't it be a shame to ignore a healing method and later find out it works?

[Orrex]

20. Hearsay

Citation, please. Your claim is provocative and extraordinary, and therefore it requires independent corroboration beyond the testimony of someone who believes in it but didn't actually witness it.


I know a guy who once said that he saw someone cut off his own head and reattach it.

Wouldn't it be a shame to ignore a method of height reduction and later find out that it works?


The shame is not in failing to support every crank theory that comes along; the shame is in allowing crank theories to steal funding from actual valid research.

Let the myriad proponents of Reiki, Therapeutic Touch, and acupuncture demonstrate that these actually work as claimed (i.e., by altering the "energy field" of the body). And then by all means let the research dollars flow into these areas of study. But until the underlying theory is corroborated, it would be grossly irresponsible to divert funding to these unsubstantiated practices.

[Celebration]

32. corroboration for something similar

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol13_2/poster3.html

[juno jones]

5. As a PT who worked ona limited budget in state hospitals (IL)

My mom would study things like Therapeutic touch, reiki, feldenkrais, craialsacral/myofacial release therapy,etc. She found that many 'behaviors', tics, etc that her patients would even be kept restrained for would disappear after these gentle therapies were applied. Most 'rocking' would diminish after simple stimulation of the inner ear. Simple touch, via light massage, had significant effect.

Human touch. As both a species and culture, we miss it so much.

Alternative medicine is not as good for acute situations (ie, broken leg), but I have been using alternatives for years to keep myself healthy (ie, no insurance) and IMO, they are the best for prevention and long-tern maintenance along with diet and activity.

[DemExpat]

6. Happy to hear this!

The last paragraph of the article says it well IMO:

From where I sit," says Gaudet in the center's light-filled lobby, "if we could figure out a way to elicit a full therapeutic response to a placebo, that's not a bad thing—that's a good thing." She considers briefly, then smiles. "I'd call it an 'activated healing response,'" she says.

Therapeutic human touch, non-invasive and non-toxic treatments, triggering a healing response....these are the focus of what true alternative medicine/healthcare is all about.

Good news to hear it is being practiced with love and care in top hospitals.

DemEx

[varkam]

7. Oh please. Reiki was debunked by a freaking high school student.

Don't tell me you adults can't figure out it's quackery.

[Celebration]

8. better write your complaints

And send them to Children's Hospital.

[varkam]

9. There are some hospitals getting into it - and it ain't because it's empirically validated.

A large part of it is about marketing, but hey, since I'm a merckenary and all, I guess it doesn't matter if it actually works right? Just so long as the hospitals make money...

Seriously though, Reiki touch therapy was debunked by a high school student during a science experiment. I find it hilarious that so many people think it's legit.

[Celebration]

10. some controversy about that

http://www.rationalmagic.com/RMS/rms-jamacrit.html

[varkam]

11. Overall, there's very little research

For a therapy modality to be empirically validated, there must be several studies that replicate similiar findings - and there's nothing like that for Reiki. There's a smattering of studies that show positive effects, more that show mixed results, and more that show negative results.

So, how is Reiki empirically validated?

I'm not saying that beyond a doubt there is no such thing as energy fields, only that (1) practitioners cannot identify them on the basis of touch alone, (2) there is not strong evidence to support the effectiveness of it, and (3) the motivations for many hospitals to get into the practice are many (in many cases it is individual nurses who start clinics), but financial motives are certainly among them.

[uppityperson]

22. Thank you for that article also.

It raises some of the questions I had about the study. I'd like to see the experiment done again.

[uppityperson]

17. What research are you talking about? serious question.

Disclaimer, I don't do Reiki, do physical manipulation/touch massage and am a nurse.

[Orrex]

19. Emily Rosa

An eleven-year-old girl successfully (and elegantly) demonstrated that the core tenet of a sham belief system doesn't work.

The conclusions: "Twenty-one experienced TT practitioners were unable to detect the investigator's "energy field." Their failure to substantiate TT's most fundamental claim is unrefuted evidence that the claims of TT are groundless and that further professional use is unjustified."

TT proponents have cried foul. How could an 11-year old (actually 9-years at the time of the Science Fair experiment) disprove a practice used by 100,000 people worldwide, including at least 43,000 health care professionals? TT is the only treatment for the "energy field disturbance" diagnosis recognized by the North American Nursing Diagnosis Association.

Of course Emily did not prove Therapeutic Touch does not work. She also did not prove that the Tooth Fairy does not leave money under pillows, or that pigs can't fly.

From The Newsletter of the North Texas Skeptics (emphasis mine)

Actually touch-based massage incorporating physical manipulation of the subject is entirely different and has been demonstrated empirically to be of great value.

Reiki, so-called "therapeutic touch," and other New Age "energy field"-based healing practices have never been empirically demonstrated to have any value beyond a dubious appeal to the placebo effect.

[uppityperson]

21. link they give goes nowhere. Here is link to abstract...

Interesting. I'd like to see more studies done. My interest goes back to my training/experience. I did an experiment with some people, similar to Emily's. Yes, can feel chakras and can touch close to body without touching it (my eyes closed) and feel differences, but it is not what I do since I'd rather actually touch people. To simplify, I can feel differences, but so what? But then I'm not very subtle, I've been told.

Thanks for the info. Bet it really irked some people. If it is used not to replace conventional therapy, seems to not do harm. But again, I've been told I'm not very subtle.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/279/13/1005

A Close Look at Therapeutic Touch

Linda Rosa, BSN, RN; Emily Rosa; Larry Sarner; Stephen Barrett, MD

JAMA. 1998;279:1005-1010.

Context.— Therapeutic Touch (TT) is a widely used nursing practice rooted in mysticism but alleged to have a scientific basis. Practitioners of TT claim to treat many medical conditions by using their hands to manipulate a "human energy field" perceptible above the patient's skin.

Objective.— To investigate whether TT practitioners can actually perceive a "human energy field."

Design.— Twenty-one practitioners with TT experience for from 1 to 27 years were tested under blinded conditions to determine whether they could correctly identify which of their hands was closest to the investigator's hand. Placement of the investigator's hand was determined by flipping a coin. Fourteen practitioners were tested 10 times each, and 7 practitioners were tested 20 times each.

Main Outcome Measure.— Practitioners of TT were asked to state whether the investigator's unseen hand hovered above their right hand or their left hand. To show the validity of TT theory, the practitioners should have been able to locate the investigator's hand 100% of the time. A score of 50% would be expected through chance alone...(more)

[Orrex]

23. Whoops--sorry about that

And thanks for the abstract.

I know many people who profess an ability to detect chakras in some way or other, but AFAIK no one to date has demonstrated this ability under controlled conditions.

[uppityperson]

24. Had a friend who showed me how, it bugged him I could

He was trying to do everything perfect and have this be his last incarnation. I told him by having this desire, he'd doomed himself to come back. Then there was the time he tried to figure out what trauma happened when he went to gradeschool to make his eyes go bad. If only he could figure it out, he could undo it and see perfectly. I advised him that he probably got his vision tested then for the first time. Ah, the good old days.

Actually I could feel a couple that he said weren't there (beyond the standard 7 or whatever). Turned out I was feeling his pancreas chakra, a minor one off to the side. But, I never could figure out what it was worth beyond bugging an old boyfriend.

Edited to add, I thought of it sort of like being blind and being able to sense objects if you moved slowly enough. I read "blink like me" when I was in 5/6 grade and played around with sibs, blindfolding each other and trying to walk as close to walls, utility poles, etc, as possible without bumping into them. I don't know if it was sound, temperature, extension of whatever's energy field (don't get me started on language and terminology in accuracies) but we got so we could stop short of things.

[Celebration]

25. you don't need to convince me

I can also tell if people have blocked chakras--either in person or by distance. I haven't tried a "blindfold" test. I am guessing that testing chakras is easier than the test above--at this point it seems like a piece of cake to me. I'm not sure that subtle energies fit into the scientific paradigm that easily. At the least it would take a lot of thought to create a valid scientific test. I used to be interested in doing all that, but I now think it is mostly a waste of time. I don't think much of anything would satisfy a debunker.

But, for those who want to spend their time and energy that way, go for it.

[TZ]

29. Please tell me the biology of a "chakra"

I would like to know what it is? How is this different from faith healing? Or waving a crystal over someone and pronouncing them cured? Can you say PLACEBO EFFECT?

[Celebration]

31. Emotion

We can all agree (I think) that emotion affects biology. Certainly there have been studies showing that negative thought processes, especially pessimism, are connected to heart disease, for instance. What is the biology of this? Do you know? Does anyone know, biologically speaking, how an emotion affects a condition? Probably not, but that doesn't stop the studies.

The chakra system is just a more detailed version of this. Which emotions affect which biological processes? It is a map, of sorts. Certainly the third chakra is directly on the solar plexus.

It is also directly related to acupuncture theory. Mainstream medicine would be well served to pay attention to all this, because blocked chakras can sometimes be directly related to disease processes. And, it is rather easy to "fix."

People who use martial arts learn how to strengthen their own body energetically, and weaken the opponent. This knowledge is in all sorts of disciplines. Even massage therapists are taught in their schools to never work on the body in a counter clockwise direction. In practice, energetic techniques are used in acupuncture, massage, and martial arts as well as in touch and energy field work.

[TZ]

53. So there was no emotion before western meds?

people died in droves in the past because of lack of emotion? Was the black plague due to people being unhappy?
Tell me the difference between your claims of chakra "healing" and Benny Hinn saying by praying and laying hands on someone the Power of God can heal you. There is no difference. Again there is a limited amount of placebo effect but your "explanations" are about as realistic as faith based healing. Thats what you are really a faith based healer.
And actually doctors do UNDERSTAND how emotions effect biology...but they also understand its only got a limiting effect. My own hematologist counsels me on keeping my stress levels down. However, I also take baby aspirin because there is a genuine stroke risk from my bone marrow producing too many platelets and my "emotions" have very little to do with that.
As for your claims that mainstream medicine doesn't pay attention to acupuncture..How wrong you are. I know plenty of professionals who think acupuncture is a good thing and recommend it as a therapy for CERTAIN people. But its not a cure all.
You bash pharmaceutical companies for not having good scientific basis for their meds, yet you talk about healing CANCER with this pseudoscientific tripe?!
I would like to know why all these new agers think their stuff is superior to western meds when the life spans and health of people have been greatly increased since the scientific method applied to health.
This chakra stuff is also akin to the old theory that infections were caused by demons! With about as much evidence for either!
I hope no hospital around me funds this stuff...Its as bad as I said above as the fundies who claim prayer heals all ills!

[Celebration]

77. emotions again

Sure, like I said, western doctors "do" understand the effect of emotions and stress. But they don't map it out, do they? Other than "stress" or "pessimism" what does mainstream medicine say about the details?

How does, for instance excessive anger affect the body, as compared to "complaining", "unyielding", "shyness", "feeling paralyzed", etc.? These may all be stressful, but the chakra and acupuncture system is just a lot more detailed. Many energetic therpists use acupuncture theory, and some use acupressure points to balance the meridians. A whole system called "Touch for Health" was developed to teach this, and many, not all, energetic therapists practice this. The meridian system, and the five element acupuncture theory has specific emotions attached to the five elements. I doubt if most mainstream medical practitioners have much knowledge of this.

If mainstream medicine looked into the details about which emotion affects which system, they would most likely find that emotions have a less limiting effect than they believe. Of course, it is limiting, because nobody would claim that negative emotions cause all disease. AFAIK, the black plague was caused by fleas and rats and the disease that they spread.

I have made no claims that this cures cancer, have I?

I have no problem with the scientific method. I think it is great that we have life saving antibiotics, etc.

I know absolutely nothing about what Benny Hinn does so I suggest that you talk to him if you have any questions about whatever it is that he does.

[uppityperson]

34. How about acupuncture? I undestand your skepitcism, have much myself.

I believe in biology, scientific testing, provable dissectable things. One of the problems I have with defining things like chakras is the terminology used is wrong. Too many times I have heard scientific terms used to explain things, used in improper ways. And too many times I have heard people claim unprovable things.

I can feel chakra points. I have never had any interest in manipulating them, trying to "cure" someone using them since that makes no sense to me, but can feel them as warmer points when holding my hand an inch or so over someone's skin. I'm a skeptic too.

[Celebration]

42. Sometimes the "warmer" areas

Represent an imbalance. Think "fire" element-- five element acupuncture terminology.............

I'm not an expert and I also detect imbalances an entirely different way. But I do know that people who are in balance are not supposed to have "hot spots." I, too, have at times felt the heat emanating from a person at a particular point (fire, fire). But as I recall the goal for a balanced body was not to have these big temperature differentials.

The fire element is the one that tends to become imbalanced easily, and it can have a bunch of different underlying causes.

I guess what I am saying is that I doubt if you can detect chakras by the temperature method on all chakras in all people that are balanced energetically. But if you are *really* sensitive, perhaps it is possible. I am hedging my bets here.

[TZ]

52. There is sound biology behind acupuncture.

Pressure points etc although many use pseudoscienctific terminology to describe it. I have NEVER heard any respectable medical personel (and I have been around tons of them, INCLUDING a world renowed biochemist/vaccinologist/epidemiologist) use the word "chakra" or any of this warmer points stuff. But its well known that the body has hot points..Goodness all you have to do is look at one of those heat sensitive images to know that!
And I have an issue with too many platelets in my blood..and on really baaaad days not only is my face bright red, but it practically radiates heat. How much of this warm spot stuff has to do with blood pooling or not circulationg correctly? Just like the people with poor circulation have cooler extremeities.

[uppityperson]

59. Language/terminology can get in the way of discussing things.

I try to not roll my eyes too obtrusively, sometimes, when people are trying to explain this stuff. Call them pressure points, accupuncture points, warm spots, chakras, all are part of the same and none of those terms describe exactly. I try to not try to obfuscate (I mean use too fancy confusing words to make me look Oh So Knowledgible) so use descriptions like to me they felt warm.

I also have an issue with people waving their hands in my face to fix whatever THEY think is wrong with me. Get the hell out of my face.

[Celebration]

64. Issues

A lot of people have issues with acupuncture needles too of course. It is not as if anyone is forcing someone to get acupuncture, though. I know people that can't stand the idea of massage, believe it or not. I love getting a massage, but there are some people who just don't want anyone they don't know to touch them.

[uppityperson]

68. I wan't clear. My issue is doing it without asking.

Whether I believe in it or not is beside the point. You don't do things to others without getting their permission. And yes, I've had people say they like their muscles being tight, or they couldn't stand being touched.

[Celebration]

70. well that is obvious

Some people are just rude, I guess. I have to admit nobody has waved their hands in front of my face without my permission. Well, my kids have of course, when they were small.

[Celebration]

63. Those who use five element acupuncture terminology

might say that you have a problem with too much fire. Too many platelets in the blood is what an MD would diagnose.

People in menopause get hot flashes sometimes, of course. An MD diagnoses that as menopausal hot flashes. An acupuncturist would look at the same condition and call it something like an overcharged liver meridian which is adding wood to the fire. So the MD would prescribe estrogen or something and the acupuncturist would quell the overcharged liver meridian, using needles in acupoints.

It is two completely different approaches to the same problem. Of course the terminology is different. I'm not sure why it would be expected that the terminolgy would be the same.

[mopinko]

61. this is for the parents, for sure.

i know children's, and they do plenty of things more for the parents than the kids. especially something like this where they can throw a bone without doing any real harm. except to the budget.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. Who the fuck cares?

It's not hurting anybody. It doesn't cost much. At the very least, it seems to generate a placebo effect. People are not using it in place of conventional medicine.

It's not like anybody's going to force you to undergo it. Why the fuss about people doing something that at the very least is harmless?

[BuddhaGirl]

13. Exactly!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[chicagomd]

14. Because it is not harmless

that hospitals are spending money on what amounts to placebo and a marketing gimmick when we are in the mist of a huge national health care crisis.

Children's can do this because they have a huge endowment and no matter how high costs go they should be able to survive. The issue from an economic perspective is that it sets a standard that smaller institutions feel they must follow to stay competitive. The difference is they must divert funds from other areas to pay for it. When the vast majority of Americans go to a hospital they don't go to Children's Memorial.

There is a much bigger picture here than a mother getting warm fuzzies because some quack is cleaning her kids aura.

[Celebration]

16. Warm fuzzies

If a mom gets warm fuzzies, don't you think that benefits the child? A mom or a child with less stress=better treatment in my book. Isn't that the same reason that hospitals spend money to have toys to play with, clowns visit, pay to get colorful murals on the wall? A sterile, unfeeling hospital is not conducive to healing, though many of these things cannot be easily measured. A good hospital listens to the patients, and listens to the patients' parents, and provides services that the customer feels is helpful. It is just like any business.

And anything that makes the hospital stay less stressful seems to me to be a great idea!!

[chicagomd]

30. Happy Moms = Happy babies, and

I agree with you that alternative "therapies" like Rekii are very similar to clowns, but that hardly justifies their expense and validating them in hospitals.

[Celebration]

33. Keep moms and babies happy

And figure out what techniques accomplish that goal. It could be listening to guitar players, it could be playing with toys, it could be interacting with a clown, it could be doing art therapy. Or, it could be healing touch. It could be massage. There is no reason not to study the outcomes of these various things through either patient satisfaction surveys, or outcomes such as hospitalization time for various procedures. In fact, it would be irresponsible for hospitals to offer these services without studying their efficacy in various outcomes (either patient satisfaction or pain levels or whatever).

Clearly, I agree, it is because patients like "warm fuzzies" and because warm fuzzies (happy patients) are associated with better outcomes that these types of services are offered in the first place.

[Orrex]

35. One should treat the adult like an adult

If the adult is told that some Reiki master (who has, presumably, written a check and taken the two-week course) is going to come in and align the kid's chakras, then whoever is spinning that yarn is guilty of deception or gross misrepresentation at the very least.

A full disclaimer must be given, along the lines of "to date, no studies have shown any real value in TT or Reiki beyond placebo, but we think that it may help the child to feel better in this case." Then let the parent make an informed decision.

But if any claim is made about energy healing, then the proponent had better be able to back it up with hard data.

This isn't a matter of using Santa Claus to preserve a child's sense of wonder; this is a case of deceiving a parent with false hope when the parent is most vulnerable and least able to assess a claim critically, especially a claim made by the hospital nominally seeking to provide the best possible care for the child.

[Celebration]

36. it is all about relaxation

releasing endorphins, etc. Should such disclaimers also be given re: chaplains, art therapy, music therapy, etc.? I'm not sure why that should be done. If there is any placebo effect to any of these things, it seems like enhancing that would be a good idea. There is no way any reiki practitioner is going to claim anything other than "reiki helps relax the patient, and stress relief is positively associated with good health outcomes." Anyway, the doctors can oversee the so called "claims" made. But it is pretty silly to come in with disclaimers about a harmless modality. The disclaimers need to be made about strong medication that is used, which could be harmful.

[Orrex]

37. It's all about the framing

If the TT practitioner makes any claim at all about healing or "energy movement" or some equivalent, then the practitioner must disclaim that these statements are not backed by evidence.

If the TT practitioner is claiming only to be helping in the reduction of stress, then that's fine. But as soon as any claim is made that the practitioner is administrating a healing technique, then the disclaimer must be used. Even if the claim is couched in touchy-feelie pleasantries like "this will allow your body to heal itself," then the disclaimer must apply.

But as long as the practitioner sticks to what can be verified (eg., that some recipients feel some relief after a therapy session) then no falsehood is being perpetrated.

[Celebration]

38. I know what they say to patients

And it is all about stress relief, or, at the most, keeping the body in balance. Everyone knows "balance" from mental health jargon, so that is how the patient relates to "balance." Of course, the reiki practitioner learns other techniques, beyond what they actually say to patients. And people can look up "therapeutic touch" or "reiki" on the internet if they want to. But no reiki practitioner, and no therapeutic touch practitioner is going to make medical claims in a medical setting unless the doctors explicitly say it is okay to do that.

[varkam]

15. Because there's supposed to be some sort of benefit to treatment.

There's no risk to homeopathy, either, but that doesn't mean that it's a good treatment. With all treatments you have to take into account the risks versus the benefits. If there's no benefit, then why take the treatment in the first place?

Also, there's the fact that it does cost money - and maybe not even just a little. Would you be willing to shell out cash for a treatment that does zilch for an actual disease?

[Crunchy Frog]

41. Really, in general I would say that's true, certainly in cases of treatment

that involve the ingestion of toxic substances or surgery or anything invasive, but I would say not so much so in the case of something that has no potential to do any harm, and that has such a low cost as this does.

At the very least, there is a benefit to the warm personal contact. And as I said, you're free not to have it if you don't want it. I really don't see what the problem is.

[varkam]

43. So you're saying that it is rare that any medicinal treatment has any benefit whatsoever?

Is that what you're saying?

[Crunchy Frog]

44. No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I am saying that when you have a treatment that is extremely inexpensive to administer and that has no possibility of adverse effects, then the burden to prove its efficacy is much less than if it were expensive and/or had the possibility of harmful effects, ie, if it were a drug or a surgery. More necessary to prove an actual benefit when there is a clear or potential cost.

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, and hope this one is easier to understand.

[varkam]

45. Ah, I misunderstood.

Thanks for the reply.

Here's the problem, though: in a setting that you're dealing with sick patients, it could also be construed as unethical to provide treatments (at the expense of validated treatments) that don't actually do anything - thereby doing nothing to stem the course of illness. That's one of my major objections to any sort of therapy that either (a) hasn't been proven or (b) has been repeatedly debunked (such as homeopathy).

Generally speaking, the maxim that benefits should outweigh the risks is correct - though I think that there are also other factors that should weight in (such as asking if there is any benefit at all).

[Crunchy Frog]

46. I would agree with you if it looked like this was replacing recognized therapies

but that's not the impression I'm getting. It looks like at the very least, it provides some warm human contact and helps with relaxatation, and in general my impression is that those things are believed to have some therapeutic value. In any event, I don't believe it's doing any harm, and to the extent that it gives people more of a "warm fuzzy" feeling about their hospital experience, probably actually enhances compliance with the course of treatment and maybe makes people slightly less likely to sue (since apparenly lawsuits are somewhat correlated with people's feelings about their interactions with caregivers).

At any rate, I think there are probably much worse things going on in our health care system that we could be getting upset about.

[varkam]

48. I don't think it matters if it is replacing recognized therapies.

But rather, the question you should ask is if it will draw people away from validated treatments. While human contact and such can help with subjective feeling, it will not do anything if there is some sort of bonafide disorder present. For example, "warm human contact" will not help someone whose appendix has burst. Also, I'm sure that such treatments cost more than a little bit of money. Most (if not all) insurance carriers probably don't cover Reiki (since -- surprise -- it's not a validated treatment) and so any cost will likely be out of pocket. It's probably going to cost more than your averge co-pay. That being the case, it sure would be nice to know that it is actually doing something.

Besides, I think there are mor effective ways to integrate a more basic humanity into healthcare rather than bringing in pseudoscientific disciplines (e.g. a greater focus on bed-side manner, which many med schools are starting to do, is a nice start).

I'm not saying that there aren't worse things going on that we should also get upset about, but that still doesn't mean that hospitals engaging in this sort of thing shouldn't raise our ire.

[Crunchy Frog]

49. Well, you're free to have your ire raised by anything you want.

I'll save mine for things that I think are more deserving. :)

[varkam]

50. I have more than enough to go around

:P

[Celebration]

51. seems to me that it IS a marketing thing

I don't see a thing wrong with it. If patients would rather have therapeutic touch done for a half hour instead of talk with a chaplain for a half hour, then it might be better to hire a therapeutic touch practitioner than another chaplain.

I wish hospitals tried to satisfy customers more. When they do make an effort, they should be applauded.

[varkam]

60. But chaplains don't play doctor.

IOW, chaplains don't make medical claims about how their services work or what their services can do.

How about spending that money on more research, or attracting more nurses so they don't have to work such long shifts, or hiring more docs?

[Celebration]

62. Energetic therapists

will follow their employer's direction on what they say about the modality. In general therapeutic touch is "promoted" in a medical setting as being to relieve stress.

[varkam]

66. Then what differentiates...

so-called energetic therapists from massage therapists or meditation training, etc etc? Also, if these energetic therapists are an independent field of practice, then why are they taking their lead from hospital administration as to what they can and cannot claim to cure? Of course, that only applies in hospital settings as there are plenty of freelance energetic therapists out there that do not work for a hospital.

What training, by the way, is required to become an energetic therapist?

[Celebration]

67. all energetic therapists are different

There is no one size fits all. Some do entirely different things from others. Of course one accepts the constraints of the employer, so nobody would make claims that the employer felt uncomfortable with. That is a no brainer.

There is no licensing for energetic therapists in most states. However, in some states there are requirements of various sorts. I don't have the information on which states require training or how much, if they require licensing. If you are interested I suggest that you consult your state government.

[uppityperson]

69. I can answer some of that. It depends. More...;

Training differs for massage therapists and energy therapists in different states (not 1 universal training/licensure). Some places you need no training or license. Seriously. Others you need 500-1000 hours of class and payfor/pass a licensing exam to be a MT, some bit more for accupuncture, but usually none for energy work.

Massage therapists can do energy work, but their main focus is working with muscles to improve function and health by variety of rubbing, poking, pulling, etc. Many insurance companies pay for a certain amount of massage for medical conditions. WA L&I has found that the combination of chiropractic adjustments and massage therapy works best to treat on the job back injuries, to heal the person and keep them from reinjuring themselves. Better than conventional muscle relaxants and lying on the floor until it feels better, or physical therapy. (disclaimer, I'm a registered nurse for over 20 yrs, licensed massage therapist 8, do a lot of injury treatment massages). Some massage therapist do relaxation massages, which also can stimulate the immune system (yes, research is being done on that, go to AMTA website for more info. American Massage Therapy Association.).

There are Therapeutic Touch and Reiki classes available, and I think you need to do a certain amount, get to a certain level, have been "certified" to say you are a Reiki person, but anyone can do it without certification also. Buyer beware. Check out the person's education and experience before seeing them.

[varkam]

71. I guess the question I meant to ask is:

What does the training consist of?

[uppityperson]

72. Here in WA it's a 500 hour program from massage therapists

It includes what amounts to a college level anatomy/physiology course (1 quarter or semester, not a whole yr course), kinesiology, bunch of massage ed, some eastern philosophies of body work, hot/cold applications, some pathology (contraindications, how to work with different health conditions) and a bunch of clinical practical experience. I can't speak much about Therapeutic Touch or Reiki since I've not done more than an intro to class, but am under the impression that Reiki has to go to classes, workshops, a bunch of clinical practice, but I'd have to check online to find out what.

I believe Hawaii has a 1000 hour requirement, other states have none or the 500 hour thing is fairly common for massage therapists. WA split out animal massage therapy recently (have to get a LMP license, then can take animal massage and get licensed). Problem I see with licensing bodywork is that encompasses so much, such a wide variety from Reiki to physical massage. I have heard some people who do Reiki be upset that they have to get a Massage Therapist license in WA, since most of what they do involves no body manipulation. I'd like to see it split out, will probably happen in the future.

When I started nursing, each state had its own licensure. I could apply for and get reciprocity in other states except CA and NY which had their own tests. Now there is a national test, and it's easy to transfer between states. Someday that may happen for massage therapy. Oh yes, the type of massage I do is massage therapy. I don't call it anything fancy, and it's not "oooo, a massage parlor" type of deal but medical massage, promoting health and function.

http://www.amtamassage.org/ has more. For energy work, I'd have to do research to find out what training is needed. I think it is more you can't call yourself a Reiki practitioner unless you go through some training program, and it is self regulated rather than by the state like other health care licensing is.

[TZ]

56. Well how about taking money that funds studies on "warm fuzzies"

and invest it in underfunded areas of medical research! There isn't enough funding for rare medical conditions but we can spend money on touch therapy? Sheesh. If they can get private investment for some of this nonsense fine..But with hospitals struggling to stay afloat, why should they pay flim flam artists who have limited benefit? Do you think hospitals should pay for more faith healers as well? There is similar "benefits" to the healing power of prayer. But somehow the new ageing group doesn't seem to see the parallels....

[Orrex]

18. If it adds even a penny to the cost of my insurance, even indirectly

Then it's outright fraud and theft. End of story. Don't tell me about placebo-based wishful thinking; if a hospital charges more than actual cost for a sugar pill, then that's theft too.

But if we're in the mood to applaud hospitals for offering debunked and medically worthless pseudo-treatments, then I have a few proposals I'll need to send to these over-funded and poorly-informed houses of healing.

[Celebration]

26. I feel that way about pharmaceutical advertising

LOL I wonder how much that has affected my insurance premiums. Inventing conditions to market pills just doesn't fit into my mindset. I'm not falling into that trap, and why should I have higher insurance premiums for people that do?

Hospitals spend money to have nice murals on the walls and other aesthetic things, and they hire chaplains to counsel with the patients and their families. Do you object to these niceties because they might add to your insurance bill indirectly?

[Orrex]

27. FWIW, I find the preponderance of pharmaceutical ads distasteful

I don't have the data in front of me, but I've read that the advertising budgets of pharmaceutical companies have grown considerably, largely in step with profits. That doesn't mean that the relevant drugs don't work or that there's anything necessarily wrong with advertising, but it troubles me nonetheless. If increased revenues lead to more research into treatments and cures, then one can hardly object, I should think. But if not...


I'm not convinced that companies are "inventing conditions" as much as they are vastly increasing public awareness of them, for good or ill (in the same way that autism is dubiously held to be more common now than years ago).

It's not about mindset, either; it's about empirically demonstrable conditions and the methods that have been approved for treatment. By endorsing any form of "energy healing," insurance companies are subsidizing an industry whose core tenets have never ever been demonstrated to exist at all, much less proven to function as advertised, Andrew Weil notwithstanding.

Hospitals spend money to have nice murals on the walls and other aesthetic things, and they hire chaplains to counsel with the patients and their families. Do you object to these niceties because they might add to your insurance bill indirectly?

Nope, because these are not put forth as curative measures, by the hospital or otherwise. But proponents of Reiki and TT espouse it as a nigh-miraculous cure for all manner of things, without a shred of hard evidence. For this reason the subsidizing of "energy healing" is questionable in the way that the funding of murals and chaplains is not.

[Celebration]

28. fair enough

But I seriously doubt that energy practitioners are adding to your insurance bill. If the hospitals weren't spending a tiny bit of extra money for that, it would go into some other marketing device. It is most likely instead of extra chaplains or art therapists or whatever. It is just one of many techniques that interest hospitals because patients seem to derive some benefit--probably the basis of this is various surveys, and marketing just *loves* to use patient satisfaction surveys. Generally they would pit something like massage, therapeutic touch, art therapy, chaplain time, etc., against each other and see what their market desires. If they are trending towards therapeutic touch, it is because of patient satisfaction surveys. I doubt if there are any studies showing that chaplains are effective in speeding healing either.

Whether the practitioners of these various methods claim various things is really separate from the issue of patient satisfaction. If patients really want therapeutic touch over chaplain time, it would be unfair to penalize them just because of claims or non-claims by the practitioners.

[Orrex]

39. Again, it's all in the framing

If a chaplain is on the hospital payroll then I suppose that his/her salary is paid in part through insurance subsidies. I guess that I have to learn to live with this, because skeptical atheists are in the micro-minority in this society, and society isn't going to dismiss its speakers-for-the-divine any time soon, alas. But if the chaplain charges an hourly fee, or a fee-per-prayer (or whatever), then that's a practice that should be abolished immediately.

Likewise, if a hospital wants to keep a TT practitioner on staff, then I suppose that I can't do much about that, either, when all is said and done, as long as the practitioner doesn't charge a "per usage" fee for each laying on of hands. TT practitioners can serve as a sort of generic counselor, because pretty much anyone willing to spend time with a patient can fill that role. But once a statement is made about special healing abilities or energy senses, then that's where we get into unsubstantiated claims that should likewise be abolished.

[Celebration]

40. well, it is not as if energy practitioners are stupid

They won't make any claims that are not allowed by the hospitals and doctors. In the meantime, though, it behooves hospitals to do surveys and other kinds of tests to figure out the costs/benefits of providing these services. Thus, efficacy of these things as measured by different outcomes should be studied, in order that hospitals use their resources wisely.

I would prefer published studies, because if any of these things end up making hospital stays shorter, (whether it be massage, art therapy, therapeutic touch, or clowns) the insurance companies should have that information as well. If it turns out that in a randomized trial of a certain type of condition and patient, that any of these things help a patient get out of the hospital more quickly, then insurance companies need to evaluate if paying for these services could actually save everyone health care dollars, in addition to giving the patients the warm fuzzies.

[TZ]

55. FYI....

The bugets for advertising isn't quite what people think. Alot of pharmas have to spend MUCH MORE money on actual employees. This is a HIGHLY competitive field!! Finding scientists with the right background can be incredibly difficult as well. I have had companies FIGHT OVER ME (which benefited me salary wise) because of my extensive background. People in my field are rarely unemployed for long these days..Although sometimes you have to be willing to move where the job is. As an example of how competitive this field is, and how the pay has to reflect this is the fact that my salary is now getting close to triple what it was when I started 10 years ago.

Also..forgive me but you brought up a point which REALLY irks me, so this is for the benefits of others...Pharmas are NOT inventing conditions! There are many that people hear about when a new drug comes out to treat it (like fibromyalgia for example) and never hear about otherwise. Although there was a time when some physicians thought this condition was not real, thats fallen by the wayside mostly, but I think the lag time between hearing about it in the MSM makes people think its just another "scam" to sell meds which is not true.
In fact..the opposite is true. Big Pharma does not pay ENOUGH attention to the rare (often referred to as orphan diseases) conditions. I have a rare blood disorder, that i have alluded to here. Its called Essential Thromobcythemia FWIW. I doubt anyone but a medical professional would know what this is (too many platelets a bone marrow misfunction). Last time I checked it effects about 1:200,000 people. I know from my research that the amount of places doing research in this area is very limited (AFAIK its mostly Johns Hopkins, Dana Farber Cancer Inst., and the University of Chicago) with no Pharma wanting to invest in a disease that so few people have. So enough with this imaginary disease crap. It's just not true.
And its also why I HATE this chakra stuff. How much money is being funnelled into this kind of research when people with conditions like mine have to go BEGGING for funding!!?
:rant:

[Evoman]

58. Incidentally, what sort of degree do you have to have to get into your line of work?

I'm just asking because I need a job, but my specialty is genetics and evolution (with some training in micro). I have a BSc in Biochemistry and a MSc in Biology. Unfortunately, there isn't much work right now in the field in Canada (and I don't want to move to Toronto..blech) and I am loath to move down to the states.

[TZ]

74. I only have a BS degree..

However, my work experience is the equivalent of a Master's. Too bad you don't want to go to the states. Seattle has a booming biotech industry, not to mention So. Cal.
Have you thought about whatever's Canadas equivalent of the CDC is? Sounds like you have the ideal background to deal with drug resistant infections....

[Evoman]

75. I might have to...move to the states or Ontario.

Right now I'm sort of holding out for a position in Forensics....

[Celebration]

76. I feel for you

Have you ever had lipoprotein a levels done? I actually have an acquaintance with this condition and she is on a ton of different medications. She went to Mayo in Minnesota for some reason, and they did lipoprotein a levels and they were through the roof. The doctors here had not done that test. She had had several small strokes in a row, and had been hospitalized for each one of them.

When I found out that she was on statin drugs, I gave her some information about coenzyme Q10, and she got permission from the local doctor to take it, along with her several drugs to thin the blood, etc.

After having had the several minor strokes in a row, they suddenly stopped. The next time she went to Mayo they did repeat lipoprotein a and it was zero. They were completely shocked and asked her what she was doing different. She mentioned the COQ10 and at that point (five years ago or so) the Mayo doctors hadn't heard of it. She has not had any repeat strokes.

There are Medline studies showing that Coenzyme Q10 lowers lipoprotein a levels. I have no idea, of course, if high lipoprotein a levels are connected to the condition in general, or if it was particular to her. I do know that lipoprotein a levels are supposed to be zero.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10077397?ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Anyway, you have my best wishes dealing with the condition.

[TZ]

54. Actually pharamaceutical advertising isn't nearly as pricey

As the freakin research and 10 YEARS of clinical trials that goes into making sure medicine is safe and effective.
Did you know that many pharmaceuticals go over seas to do their testing because the regulation in Europe/Asia is CHEAPER (and in some ways, lighter) than the US? Its not advertising thats raising your premiums. Its hospitals having to settle malpractice claims and how expensive it genuinely is to use this advanced technology (CAT scans, MRI's etc) that we are so blessed to have.
Too many insurance companies/hospitals want to treat health care as a business, and it this point you can't..not without quickly going out of business..

[Celebration]

78. Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

This deserves its own thread, methinks.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.htm

ScienceDaily (Jan. 7, 2008) — A new study by two York University researchers estimates the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spends almost twice as much on promotion as it does on research and development, contrary to the industry’s claim.

The researchers’ estimate is based on the systematic collection of data directly from the industry and doctors during 2004, which shows the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spent 24.4% of the sales dollar on promotion, versus 13.4% for research and development, as a percentage of US domestic sales of US$235.4 billion.

The research is co-authored by PhD candidate Marc-André Gagnon, who led the study with Joel Lexchin, a long-time researcher of pharmaceutical promotion, Toronto physician, and Associate Chair of York’s School of Health Policy & Management in the Faculty of Health.

“In our paper, we make the case for the need for a new estimate of promotional expenditures by the U.S. pharmaceutical industry,” says Gagnon. “We then explain how we used proprietary databases to construct a revised estimate and finally, we compare our results with those from other data sources to argue in favor of changing the priorities of the industry.”

[TZ]

57. Touch therapy in a setting where MRSA and other highly infectious diseasesa are rampant?

Could be a recipe for disaster. Especially for someone undergoing chemo who has had their immune system devastated.
Getting the medical staff to have adequate hygiene can be difficult enough! I would wonder if these reiki practitioners had adequate training in this area. I would highly doubt it!
There is a reason that hospitals are referred to as "sterile". They HAVE TO BE. If anything this practice should be limited to outpatient treatment. Otherwise, this is just another potential vector for the spread of disease.

[Celebration]

65. Children's Hospital

Surely they know all about the possible spread of MRSA and take adequate measures with all their personnel.

[uppityperson]

73. Anyone working there would be trained in health and safety measures.

Hospitals are not sterile. Far from it. Some equipment is, but hospitals are in no way sterile. Anyone working at Children's Hospital would be well trained in preventing passing on things. Besides, they don't touch the patient anyway.

[cosmik debris]

80. Who would believe that?

Most of the people who frequent this forum don't believe that health care professionals have the training or ethics to treat their patients. Why would they believe that a homeopathic therapist would have better training or ethics than real health care professionals?

I suspect that it is because there beliefs are rooted in dreams rather than reality.

[Evoman]

79. Get with the program. Those magic healing powers KILLS bacteria.

The heat from their energy quantum soul does what antibiotics can't.