Homeopathy in Perspective

[beam me up scottie]

In today's spam serving, along with the offers to make my breasts larger and penis bigger was an offer for homeopathic growth hormone. This miracle of modern medicine, so the advertisement says, will make me feel younger, give me more energy, "supercharge" my sex drive (should go well with the larger breasts and penis) and cause all sorts of vaguely worded benefits to come my way. They didn't promise me the winning numbers in the Powerball Lottery, but I thought that it might have been implied.

Being the scientific curmudgeon that I am, I thought that a few minutes with a calculator might be in order. The advertised elixer of youth claimed to be a 40C homeopathic dilution, which meant that the original human growth hormone solution had undergone 40 consecutive 100-fold dilutions (take one volume, dilute it to 100 volumes). This is equivalent to a dilution of one volume to 10^80 (10 to the 80th power) volumes - that's a one (1) with 80 zeros following it (to the left of the decimal place). For those who aren't up on their math, that's a REALLY big number.
*****

The fact is that the proponents of homeopathy have painted themselves into a corner. As long as they simply said "It works, we don't know how.", they were on fairly safe ground. Their claims still had no scientific merit, but they didn't give the real scientists an edge to pry against. Now that they have invested in this "memory of water" fantasy, trying to make it into a "science", they are out from under their rock and scurrying in the daylight.

I hold to no hope that the vast legions of the inilluminati are going to be at all persuaded by my little exercise. Ignorance is still the chief religion of the masses - as it has been since the dawn of time. However, if this can put a little sand in the gears, can cause one person wavering on the edge of the abyss to pull back, then it was worth all the time and effort.

Prometheus

http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2005/06/homeopathy-in-perspective.html

What do you think, DU scientists?

thanks to Moggie for discovering Prometheus' blog.

[neweurope]

1. I'm no scientist; I think that "growth hprmone" is bogus.

It also doesn't resemble anything else I read about homeopathy.

BUT statistics show that homeopathy works in veterinary medicine. Statistics are a scientific proof. Also I have two horses and have given them homeopathic medicine with excellent results.

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[salvorhardin]

9. Excuse me, but did I understand you correctly?

Because what you just said is "I find my pituitary gland to be bogus."

HGH (Human Growth Hormone) is a secretion of your anterior pituitary gland. It is, in fact, what your pituitary produces the most of.

HGH is responsible for making you grow during adolescence, it is responsible for calcium retention which builds stronger, denser bones, it is responsible for increasing muscle mass, as well as protein synthesis which helps organs all over your body to grow, it helps to stimulate your immune system and it also plays a big role in homeostasis, functioning as the opposite of insulin by increasing uptake of glucose in the liver.

Because of its' affect in increasing muscle mass it is widely abused and why you are unable to buy HGH over-the-counter. HGH abuse can lead to severe medical problems.

However, that doesn't stop the quacks from peddling their elixirs and tonics, which, you can almost be assured, contain NO HGH.

[neweurope]

19. Of course I don't think there's no growth hormone :)

I just think that what they are offering there is bogus.

-------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Celebration]

2. got me interested

Not knowledgeable about homeopathy particularly but you piqued my interest. Have you seen this study? Quite a p value.

Eur J Pediatr. 2005 Jul 27

Homeopathic treatment of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial.

Frei H, Everts R, von Ammon K, Kaufmann F, Walther D, Hsu-Schmitz SF, Collenberg M, Fuhrer K, Hassink R, Steinlin M, Thurneysen A.

Swiss Association of Homeopathic Physicians SAHP, Lucerne, Switzerland.

An increasing number of parents turn to homeopathy for treatment of their hyperactive child. Two publications, a randomised, partially blinded trial and a clinical observation study, conclude that homeopathy has positive effects in patients with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The aim of this study was to obtain scientific evidence of the effectiveness of homeopathy in ADHD. A total of 83 children aged 6-16 years, with ADHD diagnosed using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV criteria, were recruited. Prior to the randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover study, they were treated with individually prescribed homeopathic medications. 62 patients, who achieved an improvement of 50% in the Conners' Global Index (CGI), participated in the trial. Thirteen patients did not fulfill this eligibility criterion (CGI). The responders were split into two groups and received either verum for 6 weeks followed by placebo for 6 weeks (arm A), or vice-versa (arm B). At the beginning of the trial and after each crossover period, parents reported the CGI and patients underwent neuropsychological testing. The CGI rating was evaluated again at the end of each crossover period and twice in long-term follow-up. At entry to the crossover trial, cognitive performance such as visual global perception , impulsivity and divided attention, had improved significantly under open label treatment ( P<0.0001). During the crossover trial, CGI parent-ratings were significantly lower under verum (average 1.67 points) than under placebo ( P =0.0479). Long-term CGI improvement reached 12 points (63%, P <0.0001). Conclusion:The trial suggests scientific evidence of the effectiveness of homeopathy in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, particularly in the areas of behavioural and cognitive functions.

PMID: 16047154

[longship]

7. Fine, now repeat the test again...

For this test to be valid, it needs to pass statistical muster, but it must also be repeatable. I'm wondering what peers have said about these results or if somebody else has tried similar tests.

I just cannot believe that homeopathy has any validity beyond placebo effects. For one, the rules of extreme dilutions, used in chemistry labs for a long, long time, make the completely opposite claim to homeopathists. Either the chemists are wrong, or the homeopathists are wrong.

Furthermore, physicists have studied water in all its states and have never found this mysterious "memory" of which homeopathists speak. Physicists understanding goes as far as quantum effects and there is no basis for homeopathy--NONE!

I must presume that homeopathy is rubbish. One study does not say otherwise.

[neweurope]

20. As I said in my first post there are statistics that show that

it works. In veterenary medicine which I find interesting in so far as a placebo effect can be ruled out there.

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[greyl]

24. Let us look at them.

Post some links or whatever you have.

[neweurope]

26. If I find any without it taking too much time. I got the information

from my vet. My vet - doctor of veterinary medicine and certainly no sharlatan but am very respected man - believes in homepathy and uses it a lot. With great success as I can testify.

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[greyl]

28. Can you add some detail to your testimony please?

You can take as much time as necessary.
This isn't a phone conversation. :)

[neweurope]

31. I can only take the time I have and am willing to take :))

My horse once had quite a heavy liver damage. Both my vet AND the veterinarians at the Universitiy Clinic in Gießen treated him with homeopathy and he got well really quick. Both horses have had coughs which have been treated with homeopathy and got well really fast. The older one has arthrosis and gets - not on a regular basis, only when he's showing that he's really stiff and hurting - treated with homeopathic medicine. Whenever he gets the medicine he gets better really fast. The woman who owned him before us gave him chemicals for years - also prescribed by vets - and nothing worked (which is the reason she sold the old boy to us).

I'm sorry I can't drag my vet in here. You'll just have to believe me that he says veterinary statistics show it works. Or don't believe it, whatever :) I'm using it both on the animals and myself with excellent results, that's all that matters to me. And I'm no sucker for esoteric stuff. I tried Bachblüten (don't know the English term, hope you know what I mean) and they most certainly DO NOT work, neither on the horses nor on myself. Homeopathy does, though.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[neweurope]

41. Trying to find those statistics (couldn't come up with

anything quickly and if I did find them I'd probably have to translate them) I found some other interesting facts, though: Both in Switzerland and in Austria doctors - both veterinary and human medicin - use homeopathy even much more than in Germany. The Universitiy for Veterinary Medicin in Vienna offers a regular lecture on "veterinary medicine for animals" (don't know the correct word - animals in agriculture is what is meant; cattle, swine, poultry and the like).

In Switzerland in April they had the third International Workshop for Homeopathy in Veterinary medicine. Vets came from France, Great Britain, Switzerland, Hungary and Germany.
There it was claimed that homeopathy could even help with the Foot-and-mouth desease. Advantages are generally seen in the lack of resistance building and residues in the meat. German homeopath Dr. Achim Schütte declared that homeopathy for animals works even with tumors in the first stadium and psychological disturbances.

I also found out that Germany is planning a course of studies "Dr. Med. Vet. specialised in homeopathy". Now that should at least set critics to think; they want to do this even though the pharma industry has as big an influence in Germany as in the USA.

I'm not trying to convince anybody that homeopathy works - I frankly don't care what others think. I'm just trying to share my experiences.

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Ian David]

55. This message contains the vibrational memory of me not giving the finger

Not necessarily to you, but just in general.

[Kali]

13. Why ADHD kids?

Why not study folks with better documentable condiditons - colds or flu or skin rashes. My experience with a diagnosis of ADHD (especially in this country - maybe different in Europe) is if you get a suggestion from a public school to have a kid tested, he WILL be diagnosed. I doubt if any kid hauled to the local "expert" ever gets called normal.

I reread the excerpt and see I missed "diagnosed using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV criteria"

Doesn't change my point, but I would be curious what exactly those criteria are.

[greyl]

18. ! Here's a link to one source for that article :)

To help place it in context.

"Friends,
Here's another positive study that is worthy of your attention.
If you or anyone you know wants the most comprehensive and up-to-date
body of information on formal clinical studies using homeopathic medicine,
the best source is still my e-book, "Homeopathic Family Medicine." You can
read SIX free chapters from my website, or you can purchase a one-time
download or obtain a 2-year subscription.


Eur J Pediatr. 2005 Jul 27"
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=62115#post62115

[beam me up scottie]

59. ROFL! Good work.

Funny how those "missing" links always lead back to the Quack-house.
:rofl:

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. What do you use as a placebo in homeopathy?

It is distilled water, shaken distilled water, or what?

[moggie]

51. Product labelling

I think all medicines and nutritional supplements should be required by law to list their active ingredients on the packaging. Trouble is, what would the label say on homeopathic remedies?

[dwckabal]

3. this is one instance where the refrain

"what's the harm?" is actually correct. If you are using homeopathic remedies (and I use the term loosely), you're drinking water, plain and simple.

The only harm I can see would be on the user's purse or wallet, and that to the tune of $200 million in 1996.

That's some high-priced water, suckers!

[beam me up scottie]

8. That is true.

As far as pseudo-scientific remedies, this one is quite harmless.
Unless people use it instead of asking a physician's advise for an illness, of course.

[undergroundpanther]

12. One thing about homeopathy

They say other than dilutions the water needs to be pure..Well open a lid on a vial in the office to deposit it on those little sugar pills and all sorts of mold,dust, microbes and anything else in the air will taint the solution.And whatever PPM of remedy is in there there is also PPM of unidentified stuff that may counteract it's purpose.Distilled water when exposed to the environs quickly stops being distilled water.
Also the texts used to diagnose for homeopathy are very alchemical.

You got types of people and the remedies are applied by type and a constellation of symptoms associated by types in the like cures like"tradition" that dates back to Paracelsus and Spagyrics.
Spagyrics to me at least has an adequate amount of substances in it to make a difference.(mostly alcohol I think)

Some ancient medicines were helpful and after all pharmacology of today got it's start from herbal treatments and home remedies,from trial and error and medicine people who got advice from the plants themselves.. others were frauds. Homeopathy got an air of legitimacy and escaped the snake oil salesman crackdowns in the early days of the FDA because a US senator was all into it.

When you criticize homeopathy the true believers get pretty angry because you doubt their religion.Like any other fundie.

I tried homeopathy and it did nothing in fact it made me worse (As it is supposed to do) but it never let up,they say you must endure it for as long as you can or it will not work and you will have to start all over again..This is NOT a cure it's is a placebo touted as a cure that you must believe in, because inadvertently you take a risk to do homeopathy and the"purity" it requires.. You invest the belief in it with pain and suffering and hope..until either your illness resolves itself,which makes you assume it was the mysterious miracle of homeopathy you give up because you cannot endure the cure.. or you die...Well I stopped homeopathy when my depression threatened me with suicidal impulses beyond just thoughts.

For me homeopathy is dangerous and fraudulent and it offers hope where there is no basis for it in any rational sense or observable sense. It is a kind of faith.. and like any faith misapplied with good intentions even,it can in fact endanger you.Belief in a cure is not a cure.Cures are cures.And cures can demonstrate why and how they work.Prozac Manufacturers cannot demonstrate to me adequately how prozac works to counteract depression,it is a poorly understood thing,taking a potent SSRI because it appears to help we don't know why is a faith to me,silimar as one might have for homeopathy except an SSRI IS a substance in a concentration enough to cause an effect that can be measured what that effect is is up for debate....and I really doubt we are supposed to have faith in big pharma companiesand believe they are honest they are like smarmy snake oil salesmen too..but sometimes they DO do something..that WORKS and can show HOW....I am not a strict allopathic in my thinking here..I see value in alternative medicines and therapies that DO work,and all options should be studied ijnvestigated and subjected to HONEST seeking and sceptical proofs. I also understand the power of placebo,auto-suggestion and faith and I understand as well how this stuff can appear to help and it can get you hurt too..All I can say is for ANY medicine any therapy alternative or traditional..BUYER BEWARE and educate yourself on all sides of a theory before you decide..and don't let hope or faith blind you to reality.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

[salvorhardin]

14. Very reasoned post UP

Well said.

One note about SSRIs though. The problem is that we still don't really know what depression is, let alone what causes it. As with obesity, there are many components to depression. "It's hard work."

With SSRIs what we're doing is is the equivalent of trying to boost a weak radio signal. The SSRIs inhibit the reuptake of serotonin by the monoamine transporters allowing neurons to in the brain to fire more easily. But, it isn't just the serotonin neurotransmitters in play and that's why the newer drugs affect more than just serotonin reuptake. It's thought that if we can find the right combination, then depression can be greatly reduced. It's ironic that we understand more about human cognition than we do human emotion which is arguably the more primitive of the two, but we're slowly getting there and the SSRIs do help many people. They're just not for everyone.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Wow, UP- excellent post.

It's interesting to hear it from the perspective of someone who's actually used it.
Especially the fact that you WANTED it to work.

Faith is what's required, you nailed it.

Thanks for posting about your experience.

[undergroundpanther]

17. What gets me is

I had to clean my system of "Interferences" which meant stop my adderall,stop my Trazodone. Sop my Eczema medicine.Don't drink Caffeine sodas or even take Motrin for the headaches I was warned I would surely encounter that occured years ago...

Damn I had no clue at the time the RISK I was taking for this leap of faith.

I was sick of taking adderall I feared it because I had heard of people dying from it, it is amphetamine salts after all and it is illegal and a drug that is sold to addicts.So in a fit of fear and a desire to be healthy I risked it all.


I took homeopathy for about 6 months.

I had a hell of a time. I fell into depression,I had PSTD symptoms come up,I endured it all..My eczema was itching up a storm anxiety made me sweat and I was losing it...on faith.. waiting until the some day day it would all stop and the "toxins" and healing promises I got,from the homeopath would do it's mysterious thing and I would be healthier than ever before..It never did it's thing ,and I went back on my meds and back to therapy when I realized I was contemplating how to drink a bottle of ammonia,should I use orange juice or cranberry to mask the taste?

I called a suicide line. And the next day got help and said Fuck Homeopathy.

And I bet there are other stories like mine from people too ashamed to admit they too were suckered by hope.

Hmm maybe someone should start up a Fuck homeopathy page where people could white in testimonials to say how it DIDN'T help.Like the homeopathy pages have all those glowing reports..
You can learn from failure as you do from success I think.
If faith ,fear or desperation or a clever salesman doesn't get in the way first.

[beam me up scottie]

27. It takes a really big person to share their experiences.

I know it can't be easy but if you help de-program even one person, or stop another before they get on the train, you'll have made a difference.

So much for their argument "What's the harm?"

[neweurope]

25. More and more doctors in Germany prescribe homeopathic medicine

in not-so-dangerous cases. I have been taking it for years and it works. I would never, for instance, buy a cold medicine that wasn't homeopathic. All that heavy chemial stuff is totally unneccesary there (I'm not talking of a real flu).
You might argue: placebo effect. Fine with me if placebos work and I don't have to take chemicals.

BUT I've been treating my horses with homepathic medicine and there a placebo effect certainly is to be ruled out. Also in Germany veterenary statistics show that it works on animals. Statistics are scientific proof - even if they cannot show WHY it works.

--------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[WoodrowFan]

42. that's nice to know

I'm glad all the gulliable and quacks aren't on this side of the Atlantic. They seem to exist in Europe too.

bye bye.

[neweurope]

49. You seem not to have read my post. But that's fine with me.

Go ahead and poison yourself with all that chemical stuff. I'm not really here to convince anybody, you know; I don't care what others do and think. I just wanted to share my experience.

---------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. How do you rule out a placebo effect?

Have you been treating some of your ill horses with distilled water, or some alternative substance, while treating others with the homeopathic medicine? Or do you think that your horses are unaware of your presence and your general care of them?

[neweurope]

57. In Europe - mainly in France, Switzerland, Austria,

Hungary and Germany - veterinarians have been working with homeopathy for quite a while. MAYBE - though I doubt it - with my own horses there just MIGHT be a placebo affect - (they see that I care and that makes them feel better). I doubt it, though; 1.) I ALWAYS care for them and love them whether they are sick or no, 2.) as I said in one of my other posts one horse had a bad liver damage at one time and was - at the University Clinic in Gießen - treated with homeopathy. My tender loving care certainly could not have cured that :) Same with the arthrosis of the other one: loving him isn't enough. Whenever he gets his homeopathic medicine though he certainly gets better.

Far more important, though, is the experience European veterinarians have had with the successful homeopathic treatment of large animal herds - professional pig or cattler breeders and the like. With those poor animals a placebo affect most certainly is to be ruled out.

As my own vet (who would loose his customers very quickly if he weren't successful and who always tries homeopathic medicines before he tries chemicals) told me there are statistics; things have certainly been compared (not giving anything, giving chemicals, giving homeopathic medicine) in the veterinarian field and the statistics show that it works even though they don't know why. Says he so please don't ask me to show you the statistics :)

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[neweurope]

21. Hm. Maybe, maybe not... among horse people in Germany

Homeopathy was quite the rage some years ago. Everybody had to try it - even on perfectly healthy horses. A woman I knew gave some homeopathic stuff that was supposed to be good for the liver to her perfectly healthy stallion which promptly aquired a damage to the liver.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[beam me up scottie]

30. New term: Quackpologist

Nothing like a good dose of reality to bring them out of the woodwork...

[rman]

62. Unless you have a terminal illness that can be fixed with traditional

medicine, which you don't take because you believe in homeopathy.

[Kali]

4. Homeopathy is bogus, illogical and I don't believe it

but I have been treated for a couple of illnesses three times and damn if I didn't get better real fast. very strange vododoo.

and I concur - it seems to be effective in veterinary medicine as well.

Again, I am THE queen of skeptics on shit like this but my limited annecdotal encounters with it worked. WTF????

[Digit]

5. Careful...you will make the pharmaceutical gods angry...eom

[firefox]

6. It has only been called alternative health for a 100 years

A hundred years ago, almost all health care was homeopathic. Now all of a sudden it is alternative.

We are a fascist country and we all suffer from fascist medicine especially the way it controls the conversation on health and health care.

Gall bladder surgery is a $5 billion industry that might be all but wiped out with natural remedies if medical fascism had not replaced true scientific inquiry. I have read several accounts today at CureZone of people curing their gallstones with gold coin grass- http://tinyurl.com/7ab42

Anyway, the FDA and NIH are just extensions of the medical establishment. What the pill companies want is a disease that can last decades like high cholesterol and I have read enough on the statin drugs to question that path. Statin drugs came from research on the old remedy of red yeast rice.

Now I mention this so that you might read one thing on Vitamin C. Heart disease is the number one killer in America and there are those that say it is a type of scurvy on the heart, much the same way that lack of vitamin C in the body caused scurvy. Now why can we not get some serious studies on this when the NIH has a $28 billion budget?

It was Linus Pauling that made the claims that mega-dosing with Vitamin C and a proper dose of lystine could prevent and cure heart disease. So why the hell do we not have true research on the question? Well, the answer is medical fascism.

The establishment does not care to answer questions. Like why does the US have the most osteoporosis when we consume as much calcium as any country. How about researching magnesium or just asking Finland what they did to solve their problem. They added magnesium to the drinking water and the problem was solved.

Of course trans-fats are a no-brainer for people taking an active course with their health. Trans-fats are plain bad news, but the government did nothing as people clogged their arteries with these unnatural substances.

Anyway, read this on Vitamin C and adjust your thinking accordingly- http://www.worldofmolecules.com/antioxidants/vitaminc.htm

[beam me up scottie]

10. "Fascist health care" ?

"scurvy on the heart" ?

"mega-dosing with Vitamin C and a proper dose of lystine could prevent and cure heart disease" ?

Please tell me you're joking.

[firefox]

11. Not joking one bit

And like I say, why does the government not seek the answer?

Here is a list of the top 177 alternative health websites as ranked by Alexa- http://curezone.com/websites.asp

Mercola.com is #1 and it has 50,000 pages including a great description on fats- http://www.mercola.com/article/omega3.htm

There are all kinds of things circulating on home remedies. It is hard to chose a path with so much out there. But from my reading Americans are greatly deficient on omega-3 fatty acids and magnesium. Just read on the importance of magnesium and the sources of it in our diet. And you can read some of the research articles here of what a shortage of omega-3 can cause- http://www.newstarget.com/omega-3.html

And if you don't understand medical fascism, just think of this. The most nutritious of foods with the best ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 EFAs is hempseed oil and you cannot grow hemp in this country and the DEA tried issuing a "final report" that would have banned it from import if it had one THC molecule in it, even though hempseed had special exemption.

Do you know what the Edmonton protocol is for curing type 1 diabetes and that it is not approved in the US? And why can Stevia not have the word sweetener on it when it is 300 times sweeter than sugar?

[Desertrose]

16. you're right- big pharma is not a joke....

more like medical fascism...I agree firefox.

Look at what some chemical "improvements" have given us...high fructose corn syrup fpr example. Its in practically everything....


Consumption of soft drinks and high-fructose corn syrup linked to obesity and diabetes

New research published in the United States that followed 50,000 U.S. nurses reveals those who drank just one serving of soda or fruit punch a day gained weight more quickly than those who drank less than one soda a month. Those who drank more also had an 80% increased risk of developing Type 2 diabetes. This risk, by the way, was associated with those who drank drinks sweetened with either sugar or high-fructose corn syrup.
http://www.newstarget.com/003002.html


This one is interesting....

American Diabetes Association peddling nutritional nonsense while accepting money from manufacturer of candy and sodas
Jun 1, 2005 PT by Jessica Fraser

The American Diabetes Association (ADA) recently announced a three-year, multi-million dollar alliance with Cadbury Schweppes Americas Beverages (CSAB) to help combat obesity and diabetes in America by stressing the importance of making smart nutritional choices.

The release does not state, however, that the CSAB will be permitted to use the ADA logo on its diet soft drink products in exchange for this multi-million
http://www.newstarget.com/008164.html


How about this??

The politics of sugar: why your government lies to you about this disease-promoting ingredient
Jul 21, 2005 PT by Dani Veracity

Most people know about the massive sugar intake in the United States. Despite the warnings of dental and healthcare professionals, the average American consumes 150 pounds of sugar per year. However, not everyone knows about the hand the sugar industry, or "Big Sugar," has in nutrition guidelines set by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations. Fewer still know of sugar companies' stronghold on U.S. import taxes, which puts $1 billion in excess profits into the pockets of American sugar barons.

Obesity claims more lives and drains more of the healthcare budget than smoking. Obesity is linked to diabetes, arthritis, heart disease, stroke and certain cancers. It inflates healthcare costs by 36 percent and medication costs by 77 percent. Not only are people suffering from the negative effects of sugar; they're paying big money to be treated for these debilitating diseases that result from it.


_______

Maybe this is why I question the motives and agenda of some of the things we are told is "truth".....

on edit --how does this compare to homeopathy that supposedly puts a mere $200 million in someone's pockets? Individual manufacturers I suppose. But then again its that much less big pharma gets to put in their coffers......greed? just could be....

[firefox]

22. Medical fascism is real alright

Just look at the Medicare bill of 2003 that was written by the health care industry and passed by their loyal servants in Congress. They made it illegal to negotiate price on their pills.

Alternative health care is not one book of information. But reading through what everyone has to say, I have come to use Stevia instead of sugar. I have learned that cinnamon helps curb the desire to consume sugar. I have adopted drinking lemonade and eating the remaining lemon. I have come to an appreciation of clean water and now drink distilled water.

I bought some castor oil. It was Edgar Cayce that made the castor oil pack famous in alternative health. When I applied it under my arms it caused a few little blisters of liquid on my arm, like something was trying to get away from it. It also cleared up some bumps under my arm. And just last week, I read that it has omega-3 EFA.

My diet has changed to eat more raw foods. I eat fresh pineapple and coconut and if I ever want to fry anything I will use olive oil or coconut oil. I eat flaxseed with a spoon and use hempseed oil on vegetables. That is how alternative health care has changed me.

I believe in ozone therapies and it is a great topic since the government acts like ozone is a pollutant and many people believe it is a cure for many illnesses including cancer. But when people add ozone to the air they breath and the water they drink, it sure makes it look like it is not the pollutant the government makes it out to be.

And I take vitamin C and lystine. Boy am I out there.

[Desertrose]

34. I think you are on to something foxfire...good for you :)

I feel the more natural foods you can eat the better.... and water...just drink water. I have people tell me they never drink water!!! Only sodas or coffe or sweetened beverages. Our bodies were made to run on water, right? lots of fresh water. Ever try to run a car without oil? Not too good, huh?

Since when did the elderly need thousands of $$ worth of meds just to exist? Since when do we have to have a pill for just about every damn function of the human body...acid reflux, headaches, depression, social anxiety, herpes, yeat infections, incontinence, constipation, erectile dysfunction, diabetic tests and on and on . Does anyone ever listen to those ads on TV for meds/drugs? How bout those side effects??


Its insane. we're so into our chemically changed foods and pills that we don't know what normal health is anymore. and the sad part is, almost everyone under the age of 50, probably doens't even remember when we didn't overmedicate and refine our foods. I think we were much healthier for it.

How the hell did we get to this point? It wasn't by using alternative medicine thats for damn sure...it was (big greedy) corporations hand in hand with the govt....scientific advancements used for gain by a few in power.....and some still don't want to see it.

....sad thing is how many accept this as normal and good.

[undergroundpanther]

23. Big pharmacy is no joke

I agree.. But Homeopathy faith and superstition is NOT an adequate alternative either .We have to do better and keep all forms of greed and fraud and faith practitioners be they big or small from preying on the suffering desperate and sick people..Period.We will never find what helps as long as hope costs money and help costs money and the buyer must always beware of "helpful hands" offering cures and therapies while picking pockets and exploiting hope even when the buyer is disgusted,confused,scared, desperate and suffering..

[Desertrose]

29. I agree that there are all forms of fraud and I hate to see

anyone taken advantage of...

I disagree that homeopathy is faith & superstition but I also agree that it is not for everyone. Just as our incredible array of pharma/meds may not always be beneficial to everyone.

Perhaps if our medical system was affordable people would be so desperate and make poor (health) choices.

Perhaps if our healthcare offered choices that are "alternative" that more people would be helped...would feel more comfortable with the choices available.

Perhaps if the corporations were not more important than individuals and they genuinely wanted people to be healthy, they wouldn't sell crap and call it food.

I am not so sure it it the faith practioners that cause so many of our health problems in the first place. Do you go to a practioner because you are healthy?? or because you already have a problem....did the medical profession fail somehow...through lack of accessability or affordability?

I'm not sure the blame is being put in the right place here. Easy to blame alternative med when maybe its not what is causing the problems...maybe they are trying to fix the problems.....:shrug;

[undergroundpanther]

33. Well

I had to have faith in homeopathy to endure what looked like a worsening of symptoms . I had to believe that somehow it would work.Why else endure suffering on a what if?

Also considering the water is contaminated by other substances by time it is on sugar pills sitting in an envelope at home until you take the dose..why would I have to not drink caffeine, not take motrin for a headache if the homeopathic water is not pure already?

What difference does it make than these "purity" requirements? Water remembers it is water with contaminants in it too or does it only work with contaminants from the homeopaths rarefied office space?,apparently water remembers itself in polluted lakes so it should remember itself if I take motrin too right?
So what's up with the "purity" game?
Mythology surrounding purity is one way cults use to reinforce "faith.
I was told if I took 1 motrin a months worth of homeopathy work would be shot.And crazy enough this lady was an RN. A PSYCH Nurse!

Why do the purity crap ? Especially if it makes me suffer more and I begin to feel like some self flagellating wannabe saint?
Oh I forgot..I'm supposed to have faith in the mysteries of homeopathy not in allopathic impure motrin which I already know will stop a headache in about 20 minutes...

[Celebration]

45. I think I read somewhere

(well this thread is so far off science I see no harm in this reference)

that different homeopathic companies have different success rates, and the difference is far greater than between remedies. Now THAT would be interesting. At this point, since I have no further information, it is also unverified.

I tried homeopathy once when my wholistic doctor semi insisted. No it didn't work for me.

However, to determine whether homeopathy works or not, it is important to go by evidence rather than personal experience (per scientific protocol).

It bothers me not that we do not have a clear scientific explanation for the mechanism. Semmelweis had no explanation of the mechanism for why washing hands before surgery worked. Many lives would have been saved if that had been adopted before the germ theory of disease was discovered.

I would definitely try to stay away from impure water of any kind.

I really hate all the restrictions some place around taking homeopathy. I think they say no coffee, no mint toothpaste (some of them anyway).

There are all sorts of controversies raging WITHIN homeopathy. I am not totally familiar with them--classical vs. non-classical, etc.

[firefox]

36. Hey, I believe in science

Science is what answers the questions on human health. The problem is that the science is corrupted by money and more importantly concentrations of wealth.

Look where we are with studying the cannabinoids. It wasn't even until the 1990s that science told us we mammals have cannabinoid receptors. It is only in the last month or so that I have heard mention of CB3 receptors and there may even be a fourth one. Science will tell, but it is politics that stopped this valuable research.

The cannabinoids are going to be our next aspirin. They will surely play a part in dealing with inflammation issues. It is inflammation of the heart that is more telling than any stupid cholesterol test in predicting a heart attack or a stroke. It is also inflammation of the liver that triggers diabetes and there have been articles by the medical community on possible cannabinoid medicines.

Anyway, it is politics or medical fasism that have stopped the most medicinal plant in history from serving mankind. Science should be able to improve on raw cannabis, but it should have been there for the people anyway. For three years I read almost every word that went up at cannabisnews.com and I heard plenty of people vent on the government for letting their mother die an excrutiating death from Crohn's disease, knowing that cannabis would at least help. It helps fight inflammation and has proven pain killing properties and we know how it inhibits pain, but does the government do research. Hell no. They start demonizing pot and then they demonize smoking and then they demonize their critics that call them corrupt and criminals themselves.

In the discussion of alternative health, essential oils are an important area of study. But all I want to say about them is that some you can put on your skin and some you need to breath. One website had a message up that it could no longer sell a plain old atomizer because the FDA called it an unproven medical device.

I know there are people out to make a profit selling stuff on the Internet and that people could spend lots of money on something that won't help them. Usually they turn to alternative health care because conventional health care does nothing for them and they do not want the final curtain. But I am sure that people that are fighting their way to a healthier truth would welcome government research that answered some of their basic questions.

[undergroundpanther]

38. Hey I agree with your post!

Faith and science shuld not mix any more than fraud and science or fraud and faith.

[greyl]

32. Was corn syrup marketed as medicine?

What's the name of the Japanese company that invented it?

You might consider creating a new & different thread to discuss what you've posted. You might not.

[undergroundpanther]

35. Corn syrup

Sucks a cheap ass sweetner that hurts people..And it's on the market until ooops hush until it hurts enough people to take it OFF the market.Just like Aspartame,Like Splenda..Like Vioxx and like the Orgone generator.

[firefox]

39. Sweeteners tell a story

If you read about honey, you have some that say it is alright and some that say it is regurgitated spit meant for bees. There is not anything written is stone.

Have you ever read any at CureZone.com? They have forums on everything.

[greyl]

37. neither is big homeopathy

These Companies Make Money From Homeopathic Remedies

Some things to remember about the manufacturers and/or marketers of homeopathic "remedies" compared to manufacturers and/or marketers of conventional pharmacolgy:

Homeopathic manufacturers don't have to prove that their product is safe--no expense for animal trials or follow-up

Homeopathic manufacturers don't have to prove that their product is effective--no expense for large controlled double-blind studies, or follow-up of patients

Homeopathic manufacturers have minimal expenses for precursors active ingredients

Companies who are members of the American Association of Homeopathic Pharmacists include:

Bioforce, USA
http://www.bioforceusa.com/aboutbioforce.html
437 Route 295
Chatham, NY 12037

Bioforce is a Swiss company was founded in 1963 by Dr. Alfred Vogel to market the remedies he had been producing for his naturopathic practice. It is now a multinational, with 12 subsidiary and partner companies and over 600 employees worldwide.


Botanical Laboratories, Inc. (Natra-Bio)
http://www.botlab.com/
1441 West Smith Road
Ferndale, WA 98248

Botanical Laboratories, Inc. (BLI) is a fully operational pharmaceutical manufacturer of oral and topical dose forms of over-the-counter homeopathic, herbal and food supplement products, with 79 employees. BLI claims to have ongoing HMO and physician studies.

more...
http://www.objectivethought.com/articles/homeopathy.html

200 million?

[undergroundpanther]

40. Homeopathy wasen't safe

for me See my post #17

Also conventional medicine did it's share of harm to me too.And it wasen't just financial burdens.

[Ian David]

43. This is satire, yes? n/t

[beam me up scottie]

48. No, check out that site!

The amount of ignorance and lies is staggering.

[Ian David]

53. Nobody is that stupid. It's satire. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

56. I wish nobody was that stupid.

But then, where would we get most of the contestants for the Darwin Award?

Evolution isn't happening fast enough.

[HuckleB]

44. Homeopathy has always been "alternative."

Or do you not know what homeopathy is?

Questions and Answers About Homeopathy
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. Have you any evidence for "almost all health care was homeopathic"?

And does that mean 'homeopathic' as in 'small doses of what would cause the symptoms when taken in large doses', or as in 'diluted billions of times so that there won't be any molecules of the poison left at all'?

[moggie]

50. Linus Pauling

He claimed that mega doses of vitamin C could prevent cancer, though I believe the Pauling Institute which he founded no longer claims this. Tell me, what did Pauling die of?

Ok, you want research. Here's some:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

A dispute between Pauling and Arthur Robinson, Ph.D., gives additional evidence of Pauling's defense of vitamin C megadosage was less than honest. Robinson, a former student and long-time associate of Pauling, helped found the institute and became its first president. According to an investigative report by James Lowell, Ph.D., in Nutrition Forum newsletter, Robinson's own research led him to conclude in 1978 that the high doses (5-10 grams per day) of vitamin C being recommended by Pauling might actually promote some types of cancer in mice. Robinson told Lowell, for example, that animals fed quantities equivalent to Pauling's recommendations contracted skin cancer almost twice as frequently as the control group and that only doses of vitamin C that were nearly lethal had any protective effect. Shortly after reporting this to Pauling, Robinson was asked to resign from the institute, his experimental animals were killed, his scientific data were impounded, and some of the previous research results were destroyed. Pauling also declared publicly that Robinson's research was "amateurish" and inadequate. Robinson responded by suing the Institute and its trustees. In 1983, the suit was settled out of court for $575,000. In an interview quoted in Nature, Pauling said that the settlement "represented no more than compensation for loss of office and the cost of Robinson's legal fees." However, the court-approved agreement states that $425,000 of the settlement was for slander and libel.

That's a very interesting article.

[Ian David]

54. He died of cancer. But without Vitamin C, he would have burst into flame

It is a well-documented scientific fact that large doses of Vitamin C is 100% effective in preventing spontaneous human combustion.

It also keeps you from being turned into a vampire or werewolf. (And gives you a +3 on saving-throws vs petrification).

[onager]

58. The best comment ever on homeopathic medicine...

...was in an article I read on James Randi's site, IIRC.

One of the quacks in the homeo-biz actually made the comment: "We had to stop doing those double-blind tests. They just don't work with homeopathic medicines."

:rofl:

Something isn't working, all right. And if you can't figure out what it is, I've got an exciting Homeopathic Universal Breast/Penis Enlarger for you.

And anyone who wants to rant about "Big Pharma" should visit one of the homeopathic trade shows some time. Or do you really think the Big Homeo companies put on those shindigs for free, out of their obligation to suffering humanity?

Jebus. When it came to calculating the birth rate among a certain segment of society, P.T. Barnum was an optimist.

[Ian David]

60. Let's invent a homeopathic pill to "support healthy heterosexual impulses"

We can market it to those ex-gay groups.

I won't go into what the ingredients would be...

[Dora]

61. Homeopathy user here.

There are quacks in all lines of work, whether it's medicine or politics. Not all presidents are GWB, and not all homeopathic remedies are snake oil.

I use Boiron homeopathic remedies, and have been for several years. I've used them for motion sickness, eyestrain, muscle soreness, and the flu. I'm not drinking water, and yes, I believe they help me.

Five arnica pellets under the tongue before heavy yardwork helps prevent soreness afterwards. I swear by it. And if you miss the pre-emptive dosing, arnica gel rubbed onto aching muscles reduces the stiffness and inflammation, FAST. My husband is a drummer, and his hands and wrists get sore after three hours playing brushes on a snare and high hat. Arnica helps him more than ibuprofen does. Even my grandmother uses arnica, with her physician's approval.

A friend of mine had cosmetic surgery three years ago, and her surgeon PRESCRIBED arnica for her to take before and after surgery to aid with healing.

My son is teething, and 10-20 minutes after I rub his gums with Hyland's homeopathic teething gel, he relaxes and becomes much happier.

I'm sure there are others in the DU community who use homeopathic remedies with success. WE DON'T DESERVE YOUR SCORN.

If someone is chronically ill, or suffers a syndrome of illnesses, nobody in their right mind would endorse stopping all meds cold turkey and pursuing a homeopathic solution. That's just foolish; it's like blaming the bicycle industry because you gave up your car in order to ride a recumbent bicycle and then got into an accident because you didn't know how to ride it. If the car was working for you in the first place, then why'd you give it up? Likewise, if you're seriously ill, you shouldn't screw around with your health by listening to the first homeopath in the yellow pages.

[neweurope]

64. Thanks; was getting the feeling I was all alone here.

Aren't all these scientifically minded people so great... I'm certainly no esoteric but I believe in homeopathy too, for me and my animals. My SO who never believed in homeopathy has seen himself forced to say that it helps his horse (of course he still says it doesn't help HIM - but then he's never tried it *g*).

The earth was round for quite some time while scientists insisted it were round. And when they finally - surprise! - found out it was round they could not say why it was round for quite a while. Round it was nevertheless.

I really don't care if people on this thread can be convinced. They're determined not to be, anyway. What galls me though is their scorn, as you have pointed out, and the fact that nobody said as much as : Really? Now that's interesting... As I said above veterinarians in Europe are using it increasingly often. They are responsible for the health of expensive sports horses or for whole cattle herds and would loose their income very quickly if they could not cure the animals entrusted to them. Which is no scientific proof, of course - but it should make some people at least think that maybe, just maybe there is something to it even if it cannot be proven yet.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Desertrose]

68. You're not alone...some just have very loud voices

and like to shout over everyone to try to prove their pov is the only one.

I think it is pretty interesting about the animals and homeopathy. As you mentioned previously...where is the placebo affect there?

I have used Flower Essences on myself,my family & pets for years and have had great results.

[Dora]

70. Thanks for the endorsement

Scofflaws are everywhere. Since I've joined DU I've been saddened to discover that being "liberal" doesn't necessarily mean "open to other ideas."

And the rudeness, the mockery, the disparaging language some of us use and direct at other DUers... it's truly embarassing.

[Desertrose]

65. Thanks, Dora...a reasonable post

I like Boiron too. Also have had good results with NatraBio Arnica rub for sore muscles & sprains.

I think Hylands & B&T are also great.

it makes sense to me to try the least invasive, least harmful, lowest dose of anything to help the body start to heal itself...which is all any medicine ever does..allopathic or homeopathic.

...and I do agree wholeheartedly with your statement "WE DON'T DESERVE YOUR SCORN".

[Dora]

69. Thanks!

It's nice to see that others in this thread are actually attempting to have a dialogue based on opinion and belief, rather than simply cutting and pasting text and calling it an argument.

[beam me up scottie]

63. If you want to see what kind people peddle this stuff,

go to the CureZone website and have a look around.

That has to be, hands down, the most unethical "medical" site I have ever seen.

The amount of propaganda, dangerous misinformation, paranoia and lies
is staggering.

Well, we were wondering where all of these idiotic theories were coming from...

Check out some of the topics:
********************************************************
VACCINES LINK TO MASSIVE RISE IN AUTISTIC CHILDREN By David Icke

THE VACCINE MAFIA OR THE VACCINE CIA?

VACCINATION: THE SILENT GENOCIDE

Vaccines that kill children? Geoff Metcalf interviews mandated-immunization opponent Michael Belkin. worldnetdaily

AIDS is not Infectious

Do Killer Microbes Cause Breast Cancer?
Suppressed and Forgotten Research Could Hold the Key to a Cure for this Dread Disease

Astrological take on 911

Self-Healing Via Urine Therapy Etc.!

Bad Cholesterol: A Myth and a Fraud!

My husband's full recovery from lung tumor and massive heart attack without drugs/chemo/surgery

The Coffee Enema for Liver Detoxification

My Personal Experience, Healing Multiple Sclerosis


And much much more to feed the hysteria and paranoia of the gullible.

[beam me up scottie]

66. "Why does anyone believe homeopathy works?"

Why does anyone believe homeopathy works?

Before attempting to explain why so many people believe homeopathy works, let me first defend the claim that homeopathic remedies are ineffective. There have been several reviews of various studies of the effectiveness of homeopathic treatments and not one of these reviews concludes that there is good evidence for any homeopathic remedy (HR) being effective. Homeopaths have had over 200 years to demonstrate their wares and have failed to do so. Sure, there are single studies that have found statistically significant differences between groups treated with an HR and control groups, but none of these have been replicated or they have been marred by methodological faults. Two hundred years and we're still waiting for proof! Having an open mind is one thing; waiting forever for evidence is more akin to wishful thinking.

A review of the reviews of homeopathic studies has been done by Terence Hines (2003: 360-362). He reviewed Taylor et al. (2000), Wagner (1997), Sampson and London (1995), Kleijen, Knipschild, and ter Riet (1991), and Hill and Doyon (1990). More than one hundred studies have failed to come to any definitive positive conclusions about homeopathic potions. Ramey (2000) notes that

Homeopathy has been the subject of at least 12 scientific reviews, including meta-analytic studies, published since the mid-1980s.... the findings are remarkably consistent:....homeopathic "remedies" are not effective.

Nevertheless, homeopathy will always have its advocates, despite the lack of proof that its remedies are effective. Why? One reason is the prevalence of a misunderstanding of the causes of disease and how the human body deals with disease. Hahnemann was able to attract followers because he appeared to be a healer compared to those who were cutting veins or using poisonous purgatives to balance humors. More of his patients may have survived and recovered not because he healed them but because he didn't infect them or kill them by draining out needed blood or weaken them with strong poisons. Hahnemann's medicines were essentially nothing more than common liquids and were unlikely to cause harm in themselves. He didn't have to have too many patients survive and get better to look impressive compared to his competitors. If there is any positive effect on health it is not due to the homeopathic remedy, which is inert, but to the body's own natural curative mechanisms or to the belief of the patient (the placebo effect) or to the effect the manner of the homeopath has on the patient.
*****

Yet, despite the fact that of the hundreds of studies that have been done on homeopathic remedies the vast majority have found no value in the remedies, some defenders of homeopathy insist not only that homeopathic remedies work but they claim they know how they work. It seems, however, that scientists like Jacques Benveniste, who claim to know how homeopathy works, have put the cart before the horse. Benveniste claims to have proven that homeopathic remedies work by altering the structure of water, thereby allowing the water to retain a "memory" of the structure of the homeopathic substance that has been diluted out of existence (Nature Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818, 30th June, 1988).* (Benveniste even claims that a homeopathic solution's biological activity can be digitally recorded, stored on a hard drive, sent over the Internet, and transferred to water at the receiving end. He was a successful biologist working in a state-run lab until he started making such claims, which have cost him his status and reputation as a reputable scientist. He is now considered by his critics (such as James Randi) to be another Blondlot.) Since homeopathic remedies don't work, there is no need for a theory as to how they work. What there is need of is an explanation for why so many people are satisfied with their homeopath despite all the evidence that homeopathic remedies are ineffective.

http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

[Desertrose]

67. This is the SCIENCE forum,not Skeptic,Science & Pseudoscience forum..

Why don't you move your debunking and all your skepdic.com links there??

Isn't that why you have that forum?? ...to debunk to your hearts content??

[Dora]

71. Hear, hear!!!

:thumbsup:

[Kraklen]

72. debunking false hypotheses is part of science.

I believe there's a room where homeopathy can be discussed without worrying about people showing up with facts.

[beam me up scottie]

73. The author of the article in the op is a SCIENTIST, dear.

Scientists normally use SCIENCE to debunk pseudo-science.

Got a problem with that?

[Skinner]

74. Locking

No threads about pseudoscience permitted. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x10346