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Fighter jet "chaff" may be killing Valley lightening (Phoenix)

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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:43 PM
Original message
Fighter jet "chaff" may be killing Valley lightening (Phoenix)
I got this email from a friend at NAU and as I love to watch our very "electrical" monsoons here in N AZ, I found this article pretty interesting.



MILITARY CHAFF MAY BE KILLING VALLEY LIGHTNING
FIBERS SHORT OUT BOLTS, EXPERTS SAY


Hair-thin fibers released by military jets to evade radar during aerial war
games in southern Arizona may be shorting out spectacular monsoon lightning over Phoenix.

Researchers say the fibers, called chaff, float above the state for up to a
day, forming huge clouds seen only by weather radar and preventing the huge buildup of energy needed to produce lightning.

Routinely released by fighter jets during war games at the Barry M. Goldwater Range, 65 miles southeast of Phoenix, the chaff consists of hair-thin strands of aluminum-coated fiberglass.


Researchers in Arizona have been looking at the chaff-lightning connection
since at least 1990. They took special notice of a strange storm that swept
out of the south and into the Valley on Aug. 20, 1993. The storm pummeled the Valley with heavy rain, hail and powerful winds. There was even a report of a funnel cloud.

But there was almost no lightning.

And lightning almost always comes with strong summer storms in Arizona. But this storm packed just one cloud-to-ground lightning strike. A normal storm of that magnitude could have been expected to produce 35 such bolts, according to Tucson research meteorologist Robert Maddox.

Maddox said he and his colleagues have been perplexed for years over weather records indicating that Phoenix has an unusually low number of lightning strikes for the number of strong monsoon thunderstorms that pass through in July and August.

Maddox took a serious look at the military war games after examining studies conducted 30 years ago by scientists in Boulder, Colo., who experimented with dumping chaff directly into developing thunderstorms.

Maddox, whose research is ongoing, published a study in 1997, and his
colleagues documented 11 potent Valley summer storms from 1995 to 1998 that produced no lightning.

He said that so far, researchers have been focusing on the Valley because it's a "natural laboratory." Summer wind currents blow chaff clear across the Valley, settling out at about the McDowell Mountains.


According to a September 1998 report issued by the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, there were 237,975 bundles of chaff released in 1997 during war games at the Goldwater range. There are approximately 2 million fibers per bundle.

http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad-98-219.htm

"I think he makes a pretty good case that it is indeed chaff that is causing
the lack of lightning for certain days here in Phoenix," said Randy Cerveny, a geography professor at Arizona State University who specializes in storm
meteorology and Arizona monsoons.

Philip Krider, professor of atmospheric sciences at the University of Arizona,
also is familiar with Maddox's research.

"Looks to me like it's happening," Krider said.

Cerveny said lightning does have beneficial aspects, such as splitting
nitrogen molecules from oxygen molecules and fixing the nitrogen into the
soil.

"This is a major, natural way the earth gets fertilized," Cerveny said.

Cerveny said lightning also corrects an imbalance between positive charges at ground level and negative charges in the cloud. He said there are also studies examining the correlation between lightning strikes and rainfall.

"Right now, we don't know all the ramifications when there's an absence of
lightning," Cerveny said.

https://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/Library/Rfchaff/Docs/military.html


By Thomas Ropp, The Arizona Republic, MILITARY CHAFF MAY BE KILLING VALLEY LIGHTNING\FIBERS SHORT OUT BOLTS, EXPERTS SAY., The Arizona Republic, 07-04-1999, pp A1.



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chalky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm a little concerned about where these "hair-thin strands of
aluminum-coated fiberglass" that "float above the state for up to a
day, forming huge clouds seen only by weather radar" finally end up.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. no kidding....I know what you mean
from the GAO report...
http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad-98-219.htm

Concern about the potential effects of chaff continues to be an issue
and has been expressed mainly by citizens and various public interest
groups. In addition, some DOD research on the effects of chaff has
expressed concerns and recommended further research. Most of the
public concerns center around its effects on human health and the
environment, including the potential for chaff particles to be
inhaled or ingested and chaff's effects on land, water, plants, and
animals.

---


Not withstanding DOD's actions, some concerns continue to be raised by
the public and federal agencies about the potentially harmful or
undesirable effects of chaff on the environment. Also, some of DOD's
studies cite additional areas where questions have been raised about
the unintended effects of chaff. DOD has not systematically followed
up on these questions or on the recommendations in these reports to
determine whether they merit additional review. Lastly, DOD
continues to retain lead-based chaff in its inventory even though
this type of chaff has not been manufactured since 1987 and is
reportedly no longer in use.




from the report, looks like they are planning to use even more....

"The continuous stream technique, called saturation chaff, may be used
by aircraft to cover a large area. By 2005 or 2006, the Army also
plans to use saturation chaff to mask vehicle and troop movements."

Hmmmmmm....
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. My jaw dropped at that too. Then I checked it out.
This article is from 2000.

"Chaff drifts to the Earth’s surface over and downwind of areas of dispersal. Concern over the environmental and human-health effects of chaff caused Nevada Sen. Harry Reid to ask the Government Accounting Office to assess its impact. Its report, delivered in 1998, has now been followed by a report from a select panel of independent scientists organized by the Naval Research Laboratory during 1999. Like the GAO, the Select Panel concludes that the health and environmental effects of chaff are minimal to non-existent.

The report of the Navy’s Select Panel is of special significance. These eight scientists and doctors found no evidence for environmental effects of chaff, even considering several worst-case scenarios of its release to the environment. Recognizing that the chemical composition of chaff is very similar to that of desert dust, the panel found that natural emissions of desert dust dwarf the presence of chaff particles in the atmosphere.

Chaff particles are very large — much larger than the 10-micron particles that can be inhaled and cause health effects. Even if all chaff used by the military were fragmented to particles of 2.5-micron diameter, the average concentration of chaff in the air over Nevada would always be less than 0.05 micrograms in a cubic meter. Current U.S air quality standards allow 15 micrograms of 2.5-micron particles per cubic meter, and the concentrations in the rural West are frequently above 2 ug/m3.

The Select Panel found no potential for health problems in either humans or animals due to inhaled or ingested chaff particles.


(not that I have total faith in a Navy Select Panel)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Navy Select Panel
Like the 911 commission?

You gotta wonder with this type thing. Or does anyone doubt that this was "spun"?

http://www.navy.al.wpafb.af.mil/degradablechaff.html

Although chaff is comprised of relatively innocuous materials and the possibility of ingestion of chaff by a human is extremely remote, a second component of this study focused on the bioavailability of aluminum over an eight day oral dosing period. Male Fischer 344 rats were dosed with three different concentrations of standard (nondegradable) chaff and three degradable chaff forms currently under consideration as replacements of the standard chaff. No animals at any dose level died prematurely as a result of ingestion of chaff. Blood aluminum levels from animals dosed with chaff were compared to blood levels taken from control animals dosed with aluminum hydroxide, a common component of several commercially available antacids. The results show that aluminum derived from chaff is only slightly (18 to 43%) more bioavailable than aluminum hydroxide. These results further suggest that chaff, if ingested, would not present a health risk to humans. Likewise, chaff in its intact form is too large to be inhaled by humans.

Our continuing work on the toxicology of the Navy's new degradable chaff countermeasure has expanded to include a set of degradable plastics to be used in conjunction with chaff. Used in combination, these revolutionary new components will further the Navy's outstanding history of efforts at pollution prevention, while still fulfilling the vital role of combat flight training. The Laboratory is using novel approaches to assessing the potential toxicity of the new chaff forms and plastics, including a physiologically-based extraction test (PBET) and incorporating experimental exposure systems for both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. This work is sponsored by the Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division.


Just a couple of thoughts-- they compare it to Pepto Bismol ingestion (I mean we ALL love to ingest those ingredients, right?) Then they call an 18 to 43% difference "slightly"????

So if it is so nontoxic can someone tell me WHY THEY ARE BOTHERING TO LOOK INTO DEGRADABLE PLASTICS?
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. They are insane
Think weaponized asbestos,

Not to fear, we won't see the victims for twenty or thirty years.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. So what ELSE are they "releasing" up there?
If this chaff is important militarily, it's a certainty that the government will be exploring ways to keep it aloft longer. Perhaps the answer lies in the generation of some sort of artificial cloud cover. Say, something that resembles cirrus clouds?

It is also interesting to note that the so-called "Chemtrail Crazies" have been claiming for years that aluminum (among other things) is being released into the sky by jet aircraft.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

dbt
Committee On Noticing Spray Programs Involving Real Aircraft Calculated Yearly

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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. chaff is basically ...
highly reflective material that airplanes and ships can deploy that forms a huge blotch of video on radar in which the airplane or ship can hide to elude radar-guided munitions fired at them. Their concern is that it stay aloft long enough for them to get the hell out of dodge.

I don't understand why they are firing chaff if they are not under attack unless it's just to familiarize pilots with the characteristics. I had no idea they were using it for shits and grins.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dwckabal Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Please keep your discussion in the scientific realm--n/t
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. a forum nanny, eh?
Please keep YOUR remarks in the scientific realm.
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dwckabal Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Whatever THAT is SUPPOSED to MEAN...
:wtf:
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