I'm designing my kitchen! And I'd like to know what you love and hate about yours.

[Gregorian]

I'm the architect. I can do whatever I want.

I just picked up an indoor charbroiler off of Craigslist for a steal. So that will be a new thing for me.

But I'm mostly asking about what you wish you had done or had done differently about your kitchen layout. Things like the rangetop being on the island. I've already decided to have my oven separate from the range.

Things like the size of the island. Placement of things.

I really want to do this right. It's a hell of a lot of work. No matter what it's going to be a real thrill doing this.

[hippywife]

1. You are so lucky!!

The one thing I love about the kitchen of a friend that I wish I had done is there is one corner of her counter top that is all bread board. It's her baking corner where she can knead bread and do all kinds of things with dough to make yummy breads and pastries. I wish I had thought of doing something like that.

[Gregorian]

5. Good idea.

I'd love to know more about what that entails.

I had something like that in my last house. I found myself baking a lot.

[hippywife]

24. Wish I had more details for you.

But she has a very large island with a cooktop and the counters surround it on three sides. All counters including the island, are granite, I believe. Except the corner next to the wall oven. It is all wood, both sides of the corner, I believe, between the wall oven and the fridge. Then the sink is in the opposite corner on the other side of the fridge with windows over both sides of that corner. The dishwasher is under the counter as it continues away from the sink.

Lots of cabinets both above and below, including the island.

I hope that makes sense for you.

[Tesha]

2. Appliance thoughts...

We definitely went with a separate cooktop and ovens because
we had very specific ideas about each of those appliances.

Cooktop: A DCS (now Fisher & Paykel) 36" gas cooktop with an
integrated grill. This is a great cooktop. If we could have fit
a 48" cooktop, we'd have added the griddle, but in the 36"
model (which was the largest we could practically fit), we
could choose a fifth burner, a grill, or a griddle, and we
definitely made the right choice with the grill; we use it a
lot. Also, the four cooking burners range down to a very low
heat (which we use a lot more than we ever use "full throttle),
so you probably want to consider that in any cooktop or range
that you choose.

One caveat: The grill needs a hell of an exhaust fan. They ask
for 1200 CFM hood and we couldn't manage that. But our 750
CFM unit does okay on everything but the smokiest food (lamb,
chicken); on those, we get some "smoke spillage" off the
edges of the hood.

Ovens: We chose two Gaggenau electric ovens. The upper oven
is a steam/convection oven that's plumbed-in to its water
supply and the drain. It can cook at a variety of automatically-
controlled humidity settings and that makes for a very flexible
environment for bread rising, slow-cooking meat, and the like.
It's a relatively small oven so it's very quick to heat and its
stainless steel interior chamber is relatively easy to clean,
especially after a run at warm temperatures and 100% humidity.

The lower oven is a 30" convection oven with a built-in rotisserie
and broiling capability. We use that oven to full effect as well.
For that oven, we also bought the optional pizza stone and
pizza stone heater. Aside from making great pizza, the stone
also makes good bread. This oven is self-cleaning (pyrolytic).

(We also managed to get both Gags at very attractive prices.
The steam oven was bought as a demo unit (about $1000 off)
and the conventional oven was bought at Home Depot (Expo)
because their computer had the price for this model $1000
wrong. And yes, we told them several times that the price was
wrong and they agreed that the price was wrong, but the
computer said what it said and who were they to argue with
the computer, so they were quite happy to sell it to us at the
erroneous price.)

All in all, these three appliances give us a much-wider range of
excellent cooking choices than any integrated range, even a
dual-fuel range. We wouldn't change a thing.

One note: We're not nearly as impressed with the latest Gag
ovens; they've changed several critical features of both the
steam and convection ovens and we might not choose these
again. (The new models use LCD displays; our old models were
the last ones that used vacuum-fluorescent displays.)

Tesha

[Gregorian]

6. Steam ovens. I'll have to look into that.

I already just picked up a Viking 6 burner rangetop. I think it's going to be rather nice.

I've been eyeing the Wolf L series ovens. But I'll have to do more looking at the Gagg's.

There's too many choices! :)

[Tesha]

3. Layout, counter, and island thoughts

Because we didn't want to do a lot of re-plumbing, we left the
sink in the same general place ("under the window, of course")
and the cooker in the same general place (where we could manage
adding an exhaust fan duct).

But we did rip out a wall and move the 'fridge. This removed a
sort of "mud corridor" and gave that space (and its door) to the
kitchen. This also greatly improved the flow into the kitchen
from the garage entry and we created an island in the place where
one would walk in from the garage and dump the groceries.
We don't have the traditional sink, stove, fridge "triangle", but
it definitely works for us.

One thing we did spend a lot of time with was the height of the
countertops. I'm relatively short, so we arranged for the cabinets
to be mounted as low as possible. The "ruling height" was how the
sink and its integrated drainboard nested in with the dishwasher.
We cheated a bit and the drainboard compresses the insulation on
the top of the dishwasher a bit. The kitchen floor also slopes a
bit so we had to take that into consideration as we set "the ruling
height".

Our island is the same way: because there's no plumbing to consider,
the island is set even lower. It makes a very nice "prep surface"
for me and Mr. Tesha can work at it sitting on our adjustable-
height bar stools (IKEA "Vitamins"). The island was constructed
with a big overhang on two sides allowing us to eat at it as
well, and even though we didn't really plan it as an "eat in kitchen",
when we have the family over, they seem to gravitate to the island
whenever possible.

Tesha

[Gregorian]

8. I like that low counter idea.

I've been wondering about what height they should be set at. I'm tempted to go lower with mine.

I've already decided I want my counters to be something like 32 inches deep. I did that on a previous kitchen I owned. Everyone thought I was nuts, but I liked it.

I also like the island as more than just an island idea. I may make mine bigger than presently planned.

I can't wait!

[Tesha]

4. Cabinetry

Some might say we "went cheap" on the cabinetry: it's all
from IKEA. But we spent a lot of time mulling over exactly
what would be stored where and IKEA's approach to cabinetry
(where you buy a shell and then populate it entirely as you
like with drawers, pull-out trays, doors, and the like) was
very suited to our plans.

Mr. Tesha also customized a lot of the cabinetry. For example,
the cooktop cabinet was cut-down to accommodate our
relatively-deep DCS cooktop while still providing two quite-
deep, full width drawers for pots and pans below the cooktop.
The oven cabinet had a lot of work done to it to accommodate
the two ovens while still providing maximum drawer and storage
space. And the sink cabinet needed a lot of work to accommodate
our sink with its integrated drainboard. Again, IKEA's very-flexible
approach was a big aid in all of this. (The catalog really doesn't
make clear just how flexible things are; they show you certain
types of cabinets in pre-configured arrangements, but in fact,
almost everything is ultimately bought "ala-carte" so there's a
lot more freedom than is implied in the catalog.)

It's also "mutable" after the fact. Because the whole thing is
modular, if we want to make changes (and we have, at least
a little bit), changes can easily be accommodated ex-post-facto.

And all of IKEAs stuff carries a very nice 25 year warranty.
So all-in-all, we don't feel like we went "cheap", even though
we didn't pay a lot for our cabinetry.

Tesha

[Gregorian]

9. I'm building my own cabinets.

I still haven't decided how to approach it. In one house I remodeled, I had opaque plexiglass sliding doors. I was very lucky to get to see a house my neighbor built, last week. Right on the ocean bluff of Mendocino. The owner had just finished a $200k kitchen remodel. I didn't like the remodel, but the cabinets were outrageous. All stainless. It's hard to decide with so many variations of possibility.

In the event that I decide to slim down my own efforts, I'll remember the Ikea idea. Thanks!

[Tesha]

11. Something you might consider is what Model Railroaders call "kit bashing"".

What that means is that you buy a kit (or several), but don't put it
together the way that was originally intended. Instead, you take the
kit as "a set of parts" and use them to do your own customized thing.

We treated a lot of the IKEA bits-and-pieces in exactly this way.

And if you, for example, wanted to build your own cabinets but
didn't want to construct a zillion tongue-and-groove drawers, you
could build your own shells, doors, and drawer-fronts, but use the
IKEA drawer interiors and mechanisms.

Tesha

[randr]

58. I have designed and built many custom kitchens

From very restricted budgets to the max. I all cases I have designed and built the cabinets for both cost basis and design freedom.
Lay out your floor plan in modular fashion remembering all appliances and drawer hardware are at 3" intervals.
I develop the general layout and use pre-built boxes. One supplier is cabparts.com and I am sure there are more. These companies supply boxes in many different materials and ship them to you for assembly. Most systems require only a screw driver and a few clamps.
Once the boxes are arranged you need to decide on style of doors and/or face frames. Many cabinet suppliers also build Eurostyle doors and drawer boxes of all styles, materials, and colors. I buy my boxes from uniquedrawerboxes.com. Very user friendly site that makes sure you consider all options. They also provide hardware selections with the orders.
Once the boxes are assembled and installed you have the freedom to proceed with whatever options you choose for the actual appearance of your kitchen.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing your progress.

[Gregorian]

78. Thanks!

This is really helpful stuff, especially knowing you've got some experience.

The only kitchen cabinets I built from scratch were in an Eichler. He was good at designing simple, easy to construct stuff. I just modified his design. But to start from scratch, I was a bit nervous. So this idea of partially started cabinetry is a big relief.

Edit- I see Cabparts only sells to businesses. After trying the page that does a quote, I think I'll just build from scratch. Way too much money. I've got the time. But I would like to do what you said, if it's cost effective.

[randr]

88. Good luck Gregorian

You certainly have a bit of info here to choose from. My choice of pre-cut cabinets is cost effective for me as the costs of labor can run as much or more than materials. When you are doing a project yourself it changes the equation. I would still recommend that you check out one of these systems as the assemble time, installation, pre-drilled holes for all shelving and hardware give you more economical choices.
I also am a big fan of melamine interior walls for there durability and cleanliness.
Again, good luck. I look forward to your posting of your progress.

[jgraz]

84. Have you considered not having cabinets?

Personally, I hate them. My kitchen redesign rips out the cabinets and replaces them with open shelves. No more "easter egg hunts" looking for where your spouse put the cardamom.

I also don't plan to have many installed countertops. Many of the work surfaces will be antique or custom pieces of furniture. It's not only cheaper than custom counters, it's a great old-school Mediterranean look that gives you a lot of configurability.

Just my $0.02. I learned to cook in commercial kitchens, so I probably have a different aesthetic sense than most home cooks.

[Lars39]

86. I like the idea of not having cabinets, but how do you keep the flour dust

out of everything? I somehow manage to get it everywhere. :D

[NJCher]

72. wow, thank you

for that tip. I need a customized cabinet like that but never thought of Ikea.

I've been going through headaches with the local cabinet making company.

One small problem, though--do they come with no finish? because I'm planning on antiquing mine.


Cher

[Tesha]

7. General flow

With regard to the overall "flow" in or kitchen, I spent *A LOT* of
time (several years) pondering out exactly how the new kitchen would
be arranged. I'd bounce ideas off Mr. Tesha and he'd often agree, but
occasionally tell me "No, we can't do that because of xxx, but how about
we do this instead?"

Over time, it all settled down. (Deciding to remove that wall "broke free"
a lot of ideas and enabled a lot of the good stuff that finally happened.)

Basically, there are four main "areas" in our kitchen:

o Food storage

o General cooking

o Clean-up

o Baking

The food storage takes place all on one wall and contains the fridge,
two pantry cabinets, a bread storage area, and the microwave oven
(so instant foods go from the fridge to the microwave to our mouths
without ever leaving this area ;) ).

The cooking area has the cooktop, toaster oven, a cabinet with all
the spices, oils, and the like and all the measuring tools, and the
cabinets with the various tools such as the blender, food processor,
etc. Most of the daily cookware (pots and pans) live in two big drawers
directly below the cooktop.

Between the cooking and clean-up areas are the cabinets that
hold all the dishware and glassware (with a few small exceptions).

And clean-up has the sink, dishwasher, and the cleaning tools.
Coffee is also tucked off at the end of this area.

A fourth area is the baking area. Somewhat isolated from the
other three areas, it contains the two ovens, built into a 30"
full-height cabinet that sits tucked into a suitably-sized nook in
the garage wall. Besides the ovens, this cabinet also holds
all the accessories for the oven and much of the bakeware. The
rest of the bakeware is stored in a cabinet in the island that faces
the baking area.

The island sits among all of these areas and provides a place to
hold everything as items move among the areas. The island also
stores all the lesser-used tools and cookware.

The real key, though, was that I spent those several years standing
around in the old kitchen deciding what worked for me, what didn't
work for me, and what would work better. And for the last six months
or so, we kept "working drawings" that ever-more-closely reflected
what we could actually construct with detailed information about
what was going to go where.

Tesha

[Gregorian]

13. Wow. You are the perfect one to be giving your thoughts and ideas.

I'm dying to show the basic geometry of my blank kitchen area. But for now maybe it's best to just get the general ideas flowing.

I will say that while looking at Viking's commercial website, I noticed they had open cabinetry over the center of their island. I really like this idea.

You've given me a lot of info that I can now go back and start working with.

[Warpy]

10. Best kitchen I ever had was an 8x8 galley

with an apartment sized stove and open shelving. The open shelving maximized storage, the little stove was adequate, and the small working area meant I didn't get exhausted sprinting from one area to another. I needed something, I just turned around and got it.

Were I do to one now, I'd still want a closed kitchen because this cooking as entertainment thing leaves me cold. I'd rather my guests didn't have to stare at the mess in the kitchen while dining. If I absolutely had to put up with an open concept, I'd build a wall at the island with a high counter on top, OK for people on stools or standing to talk to me but high enough they couldn't see the detritus while seated at the table.

I also prefer the galley style as a way to reduce fatigue. I'd probably want a slightly larger kitchen, but I'd want the two rows only 4 feet apart, meaning the width of the kitchen should be 8 feet.

Another thing to consider is lighting. I vastly prefer task lighting to pot lights making it look like a place to sell jewelry. Overhead lighting is fine for washing the floor but it doesn't work well for cooking.

Work surfaces, colors, and finishes are very individual, can't help you there. I can say I always want space right next to the stove for a decent sized cutting board so I can scoop directly into the pan. I also want space for a couple of ceramic pots full of cooking gear and a lazy Susan with things like oils, vinegars, and soy sauce on the other side of the stove.

I've made do with the world's worst kitchens, the Victorian variety, and made them work for me. However, this is what I'd do if I hit the lottery.

[Tesha]

12. I just have Mr. Tesha do his "sous chef" thing. ;-)

> I'd rather my guests didn't have to stare at the mess in the kitchen while dining.

I just have Mr. Tesha do his "sous chef" thing ;). With his help, we tend
to "continuously clean" as we cook, so the mess stays under control
"most of the time". It helps to have someone around who sometimes
leans towards OCD!

Tesha

[Gregorian]

14. Yes. I hadn't thought about the cutting area being next to the stove.

That's an important one. It's things like that that I'm looking for. My parents love their island for cutting, but their stove is half way across the kitchen. I don't like it.

I also like the open cabinet thing. I saw this on a commercial setup. I plan to have that as part of my setup.

I have been toying with the idea of whether to do something to keep the kitchen separate from the living room. You've given me a good bit of inspiration with that idea.

I have also lived with the worst kitchens imaginable. I'm in this RV right now. I can't even cook in here without putting things on the bed, couch, floor. Argh, what a nightmare. I don't know what I'm going to do in full blown house again.

[Warpy]

15. Thanks, I've always been a nomad

so I pretty much know what works and what doesn't. Huge kitchens might have lots of sparkle, but they're often miserable to cook in--hard to believe for somebody in an RV, I know. I'd probably keep the really tight appliance configuration my old 8x8 kitchen had but with extra counter on both ends of each line.

As for the island facing the living room, I'd be more inclined to want the cooktop/stove there so my back wasn't to my guests, although that brings up the question of how to vent cooking gases. There are units that vent down through the floor and then out, but that can be problematic on slab construction. I'd just want that wall, please. I'm not a tidy cook.

But add a few stools and enough of a ledge for guests to rest their drinks on, and I'd be a happy camper and so would they.

[Tesha]

23. Excellent point!

> ...but I'd want the two rows only 4 feet apart, meaning the width
> of the kitchen should be 8 feet.

Excellent point! The total area devoted to our kitchen is 14' x 15'
(plus the nook that holds the oven cabinet) but the overall flow is
a "U" and the aisles are set only moderately wide. (30" in the dead-
end of the "U" by "cleanup", 42" in the bottom of the "U" by "cooking",
and sorta-variable 36"-52" in the "storage" side of the "U" (that also
functions as the main passage from garage through kitchen into
the rest of the house.

Each passage is wide enough to let Mr. Tesha and I pass each other,
but it's close. The "ruling factor" for us was two-fold: 1) we had to
create enough space between the dishwasher and the island to allow
the dishwasher door to open fully and 2) we wanted to allow that
"two-person" bare-minimum passage width. That allowed the other
side of the "U" (the garage to house passage) to have maximum width
and that's handy when Mr. Tesha has huge things to drag in and out
from and to the garage. We also wanted to make sure that the washer
and dryer could move on a hand truck in that space for service (and
that worked out well because this past summer, we unfortunately
needed that capability :( ).

But within those constraints, narrower aisles definitely mean less
wasted movement. By comparison, some of our neighbors have
much bigger kitchen areas, and a lot more motion needed to get
around from area to area. A large, empty kitchen is definitely
wasted space except for shooting photos for "design" magazines.

Tesha

[sandnsea]

16. My cutting board is next to the frig

Initially I thought it was the most stupid place to put a cutting board imaginable. But actually it works amazingly well. Pull veggies out of the frig and put on the cutting board. The sink is right to the right. Make a salad, make a sandwich, whatever. Very handy. If you're chopping for dinner, the little mess you end up with is all right there, swoop into the sink and disposal. I really like it and don't miss not having it near the stove at all. My stove area is never a mess after cooking, like it used to always be. I have a floor to ceiling pantry at the end of the stove-cupboard section and that is great too. I have a whole cupboard just for spices, vinegars etc., and the area above the stove. I can separate out baking spices from cooking from daily salt & pepper. Another cupboard just for the daily food, bread, cereal, popcorn, that kind of thing. That's handy too. I love my kitchen, I really don't think I'd change it even though it's not laid out the way one would think a kitchen should be. Think very carefully about your personal style and mostly your personal annoyances. I hate to clean so ease of clean-up is more important to me than having a microwave next to the frig. Another thing I love is water convenient to the coffee pot. I would hook up a coffee pot to the water source if I could, that would be awesome. What fun you are going to have!!

[pengillian101]

17. Wow, what a treat to design your kitchen!

We have a very small kitchen but it is the focal point of this house, as it's an open area design - house was built in the 1970's I guess. Nobody visiting ever sits in the living room, even though that's the largest area. The kitchen has always been the gathering place wherever I've lived.

The main area has a small dining area and an extended island that faces the kitchen area. That's where we sit and eat, talk, etc. Cooking area is behind the island. So have room for your visiting friends and family. Even if they get in your way, lol.

The actual kitchen is not set up as I would like. We did put in new cabinets awhile ago, and I wish the cabinet-maker would have made suggestions. But then again, I never thought to ask.

Our double-door refrigerator door swings the wrong way - the main door opens against the kitchen. Likewise, I hate how the over-the-stove microwave swings to the left! It seems so awkward and it bugs me daily.

Good thing you are planning all this out beforehand. It will be wonderful, I'm certain.

OH - my biggest thing I wish I had was a real grill and electricity to the island, so I could sit and cook :rofl:

[Warpy]

18. Check out the tops of your fridge doors

most of them have covered screw holes so that you can change the swing from one side to the other.

It's an annoying job to do, but will relieve you of a lot more annoyance over the years from a fridge that opens the wrong way.

Or you can call a service person to do it for you. That kind of service call shouldn't be terribly expensive and you'll wonder what took you so long!

[Tesha]

22. This will be true for 'fridges that don't have ice/water dispensers but...

...not for side-by-sides or any fridge with a dispenser, 'cause the
water supply to the door also runs somewhere in the "hinge assembly.

Otherwise, absolutely yes -- good idea! (By the way, the same good
idea holds true for many front-loading washers and dryers. Ours are
just off the kitchen and in the renovation, the dryer moved "south"
of the washer (to make way for the oven cabinet) and we had to
reverse the swing on both doors.

Tesha

[EFerrari]

19. Light, sunlight and good artificial light.

I don't think I've ever had a kitchen that had enough. :)

[Tesha]

25. Mr. Tesha loves light!

EF:

> I don't think I've ever had a kitchen that had enough. :)

You and Mr. Tesha would get along great -- he *LOVES* light
and lights! That's an area where I pretty much let him have his
way in the kitchen design and what we ended up with was:

o The big "greenhouse" window over the sink (that needed
replacing the year *AFTER* we'd finished the kitchen -- talk
about bad timing!)

o Most of the existing pot lights in the ceiling, but converted
from halogen R30 lamps to "bright white" CFLs, with two different
wattages installed to get a more-uniform overall effect. (We chose
not to demolish the existing ceiling, which probably turned out to
be the wrong choice in the long run; damn that awful, very hard
texturing on our home's ceiling is hard to work around!)

o Under-cabinet fluorescent lights.

o Over-cabinet fluorescent lights that bounce off the ceiling.

o A fluorescent light in the microwave nook

o And, the pièces de résistance:

- An old IKEA "arty" glass and halogen lamp that we had
bought for my office years back but never got around
to installing, now installed on a dimmer as the over-island
lamp, and

- Five IKEA "Kvart" lamps kit-bashed into a single over-sink
fixture that, believe it or don't, quite closely mirrors the
design features of the faucet that lives below. The central
light of the five has an ordinary incandescent 25-watt R-16
lamp in it (for instant brightness at turn-on) and the outer
four lights have 4-watt CFL reflector lamps for better energy
efficiency.

Our upper cabinets have glass doors and glass shelves, so we've
also made provisions for "in-cabinet" lights, and Mr. Tesha has
bought all the materials, but they haven't been installed yet.
That probably means that he's not entirely satisfied with the
design yet.

Tesha

[surrealAmerican]

40. We put in all kinds of different lights too.

After six years here's what we actually use:

Under cabinet lights: almost never use
Over cabinet lights : almost never use
Center of the room light: use when entering the kitchen because of the conveniently located switches
Over the counter lights: always use when cooking

If we had it to do over again, I would have the convenient switches turn on those counter lights. They really put the light right where you need it for almost every kitchen task. We could have done without most of the other lights.

[Gregorian]

30. I've got rows of clerestory windows.

The lighting I'm going to be working on with a great guy here in town. He's heavily into Tango dancing. And just a real common sense person. That's the thing about Mendocino. There are a lot of cool people here. I'm not sure what I'll be doing for light.

I do have an idea for a thin window along one of the kitchen walls just above the countertop. But I don't think it'll be much in the way of natural light.

Cheers!

[Warpy]

60. That's why I specified task lighting

It's the only way to throw enough light onto a work surface.

My own horror show of a kitchen came with a central fixture under an enormous ceiling fan. I put in a smaller fan with a better fixture, but have needed to supplement it with halogen under cabinet lights and a couple of cheap swing arm, pin up jobs. It will never make House Beautiful, but the combination does the job beautifully.

The thing to remember is that things that photograph well don't always work terribly well.

[csziggy]

20. I love my side opening oven even though it is only 27" wide

It is at a height that has the floor of the oven just below counter height so it is easy to reach into without having to reach over a hot door. I like the ceramic cooktop but miss my cast iron pots and pans - but cleaning it is so much easier it is worth it! I like the pull out cooktop hood that disappears when it is not in use.

I love the pull outs for garbage, recycling and organics headed for the compost pile. I love the pulls outs above the fridge and freezer that make that space really accessible AND the pull out under the sink for all the soaps and stuff, and the other pull out for the cat food and supplies - all were modified IKEA cabinets I planned and assembled myself with advice from the wonderful people at IKEAfans.com Even if you use fancier cabinets, a lot of the ideas they have come up with are terrific.

I really love having a farm style kitchen with tables to sit down to do my cutting and prep work at - or to use as lower counter space for mixing and stirring. I like having the plug strips up high under the upper cabinet so they are never hidden behind stuff on the counter I like the under cabinet lights that are individually switched so I can walk up to where I need light and don't have to remember to turn on a master switch.

I adore my huge IKEA farm sink (but wish I had gotten the IKEA faucet instead of the one I do have). I really, really love the Frigidaire Twins counter depth separate fridge and freezer - but sort of resent the amount of space they take. It is so much easier to find stuff in both parts, especially with the freezer as opposed to the chest freezer we used to have!

We finished our house almost a year ago - here is my blog at IKEAfans about the nearly finished kitchen - http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/blogs/woodswell/getting-there-1201/

More pictures of "in progress" at http://woodswell.com/Photos/HouseBuild/020_Cabinets/index.html and a list of what I used at http://woodswell.blogspot.com/2007/12/kitchen-is-basically-finished.html

[Tesha]

26. Side-opening ovens: Hear, hear!

csziggy:

You make an excellent point about "side-opening ovens". Both of our
Gags are of this style and after having lived with ordinary "pull-down"
oven doors for years, what a relief the side-opening doors are!

My back isn't in the best of shape and heaving a heavy Dutch oven
and a roast "over" the pull-down door was never good for it. Reach,
stretch, don't accidentally bump the flaming-hot metal or glass, etc.
By comparison, you can stand right next to the rack(s) in the side-
opening oven and slide stuff right in. And yes, having the main
oven at roughly countertop (or, in our case, "island top") height
is the perfect arrangement.

With regard to a point Warpy made elsewhere, both Gags could be
ordered in either "left swing" or "right swing" versions, but they
sure look like their field-convertible as well.

Honestly, I'm not sure why anyone would prefer the conventional
"pull down" door. Sure, you can probably place your heavy load
down onto the door on its way from here to there, but why would
you want to if you don't have to?

Tesha

P.S.: Mr. Tesha hardly ever complains about his back and does
a lot of my "heavy lifting" for me, but I haven't heard him say
anything negative about the side-opening ovens either ;).

[csziggy]

44. I found this Frigidaire in an ADA article about kitchens for physically handicapped people

I've got a drawer located where if need be I can put a heat proof "lid" on it and slide pans from the oven right onto that. So far Mr. csziggy handles my heavy stuff when I need help, such as after my shoulder surgery this past June. He loves the side opening oven, too!

I looked at the higher end appliances, but I am low - middle priced all the way with bargains everywhere I could find them (all the appliances for the house cost less than $3500 by the time I shopped spring sales, did price matching and discounts that also cut my cabinet prices by 10%).

Since I have had work done on both knees (last knee surgery was between signing the contract and breaking ground on the new house) I planned everything to be easily changed to wheelchair accessible. And with having had both shoulders worked on, back problems upper and lower, I planned the house to limit stress to those areas, too.

While we have two bedrooms upstairs (mostly for resell value since a one bedroom house is not real practical), I don't need to go up there - Mr. csziggy has claimed that as his territory. But the entire downstairs can be easily accessed while in a wheelchair with wide doors and ramps for exterior access.

If I do end up in a wheelchair, I can change out things like the sinks and cooktop without a lot of hassle. We laid the tile floors all the way under the cabinets so we can change them out without having to change the floors. The toilets are already set up for access and the downstairs bath has a curbless shower room with loads of hand rails and a bench.

[Gregorian]

31. Thanks for all of the ideas. Here's a snapshot of my rough floorplan.

That's a lot of freezer space. I have just started looking at refrigerators, and there are way too many to choose from. I hadn't seen your style.

I like your ideas on power under the cabinets. My dad did that in the house I grew up in.

I should post my kitchen floor plan. The kitchen is a sort of U shape. The north wall is 13 feet long.

Oops, this is without the latest updates. The pantry door is going to open on the wall facing the living room. The island is going to be bigger.

[csziggy]

47. You might look at floor to ceiling pantry cabinets rather than a pantry "closet"

We had a pantry closet in the old house. When we remodeled, we reconfigured it to full width front access and more than doubled the usable space. In the new house, we have one 24" deep by 30" wide by 80" tall pantry cabinet under the stairs and another one that is only 15" wide by 12" deep in the hall and store everything we had in the old pantry - plus it is more accessible. We used a lot of drawers - as high as I could see to get into them - and that makes it so much easier to find stuff in that 24' deep cabinet! Heck, we can put an amazing amount of stuff (cereal, crackers and snacks) in those drawers above the fridge and freezer. If I need more dry goods storage, the deep cabinets above those are still almost empty, but Mr. csziggy would have to retrieve it for me.

Where will your oven be? Under the cooktop? Where is the fridge?

[Gregorian]

53. I'm not sure where anything goes yet. And I like your ideas on the pantry.

My parents have an entire room for a pantry. I'm nervous that by having mine smaller, it really becomes unusable like you were hinting.

I'll have to give that part of the kitchen more thought.

[csziggy]

55. Remember, you need at least 18-24" to get into a closet type pantry

If I remember your diagram correctly, the pantry is only 5' wide. With a 2' "aisle" that leaves 18" wide shelves on each side, if that. Instead, you could have 2' deep pantry cabinets floor to ceiling and gain three feet of space in the overall kitchen. That pantry closet takes a big chunk out of your room for how much storage you actually get.

I'd measure how much square footage you use now for storage and then how much you think you want and play with the figures on how much you get from cabinets versus the closet. Don't forget that you have to figure in the extra space used up by the framing for the walls! And think if you want that extra room in the closet or in the kitchen overall.

Also, I said I have my two pantry cabinets outside the kitchen - is there unused space you could stick some extra storage? My big one is under the stairs - we sized the broom closet to have just the right amount of room for it. The smaller one is actually on the side of that one, facing the hall - and the shallower size is wonderful for canned goods.

The one problem is the corner - but you could use something like the Lee Valley blind corner units to solve that:
http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/modifications/437-blind-corner-unit-lee-valley.html
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=43657&cat=3,43648,43653&ap=2

Or revolving shelves:
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=40406&cat=3,43648,43653&ap=2

One of the IKEAfans modifications has stacked blind corner cabinets with ways to access the hidden corner. I think they managed to stack them three high - with the 48" wide by 24" deep cabinets, that is a heck of a lot of storage! http://www.ikeafans.com/galleries/index.php?n=963

We have two of the blind corner units and while they are neat, I almost wish I had the revolving shelves instead. The blind corner units have more moving parts and are more prone to problems. But they are cool!

Or you could put an appliance garage in the corner at counter height and just use the blind corner at lower and upper levels. http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/modifications/2134-making-appliance-garage.html and http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/kitchen-planning/10339-making-appliance-garage-cab.html IKEA sells some nice metal roll up doors that would be perfect in your stainless steel kitchen! Speaking of that - IKEA has some new stainless steel look doors (Rubrik): I am not sure how they would coordinate with their other metal and glass doors or the roll up ones, but you might want to look. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/search/?query=AVSIKT

Here is a kitchen using those in combination:
http://www.ikeafans.com/forums/kitchen-planning/27775-rubrik-stainless-avsikt-kitchen-manhattan.html Sleeeek!

I love the Lee Valley site and it is worth getting one of their catalogs for the hardware porn, both for building cabinets and for decorative accents.

[Gregorian]

56. I like those opaque wall cabinets.

Thanks for the IKEA link. I can't believe it, but those look like cabinets I saw in a rather nice house the other day. Rather being a $200k kitchen.

I've got the 24 inches. So a walk-in pantry is what I"m going to try and achieve. I had those revolving corner pieces in my last house. They work pretty well. I guess I'll have to see how much kitchen area I have to work with.

[csziggy]

57. The IKEA cabinets are pretty nice - they go together easily

And are very sturdy. The drawer and door hardware are Blum - pretty high end, considering how low the prices for the cabinets are. And if you are at all into figuring stuff out, they are great. The boxes are standardized and you can put whatever combination of components into the boxes you want to completely customize the set up. That is where the IKEAfans site comes in - those people have tried out many of the possibly combinations and discuss how they do them.

Then once you have your interior spaces figured out, you put whichever fronts on the boxes you want. They are easy to change out if you change styles. Even the interiors are easy to switch out - I changed some of my drawers around when my original configuration did not suit me.

The hardest part about IKEA kitchens if you do not have one in your town is actually ordering it and getting it delivered. But it is possible. The closest IKEA to me is four hours drive and I managed.

Good luck - it is so fun to design your own space and make it just the way you want!

[Gregorian]

61. I actually intend to build all of my own cabinets.

I did it once before. My dad is 85, but he wants to get involved too. He has an entire wood shop. Between the two of us we can put something together. I also have a metal shop, so I can get pretty creative with things.

The only problem is, my heart really isn't in to this project. I hate to say it. I miss what I had in my last property. And I want that back. Level pastures with creeks. A rural community. Mendocino is not really the kind of rural I like. However, it's progressive. My last place was Bush territory. Yuck. I'm kind of torn.

I shouldn't post that stuff. I don't want to talk about it. I guess I'm burning out. This Coastal Zone gauntlet really took it's toll on me.

Oops. Time to go outside and breath some fresh air. :)

[csziggy]

65. Consider getting the IKEA boxes and fittings and make your own doors

That is what I thought about doing until I saw the IKEA Tidaholm oak ones which were pretty much what I wanted anyway. Besides, I had knee surgery just before we broke ground and ended up getting shoulder surgery shortly after moving in, so physically I could not do it. We built the cabinets when we remodeled the old house, but Mr. csziggy is working full time now and I just could not handle it by myself.

Just think about all the cool things you will be able to do! And it will be nice to do a project with your dad.

[Gregorian]

67. That's perfect!

I think you've nailed the best way to do this. Besides, I'm toying with the idea of erecting the house by myself. Yep. The hardest part of these kinds of jobs, for me, is waiting for other people. Anyways, I like this idea.

I really do like this forum. It feels like a bunch of friends. Not like some anonymous virtual world. I had a long talk with my mom yesterday about getting along with people. I seem to be particularly sensitive to people's political leaning. If I sense someone isn't a progressive liberal, I put a large distance between us. I forget what we concluded. I think it was that we need to give people room for growth. Haha. But I love how I can trust everyone on this forum.

OK, off to go clean up the tractor, lay down some butyl tape, and wait for steel to arrive. AND a new stainless frying pan the UPS will deliver!

[csziggy]

68. The easiest part is that IKEA doors and drawer fronts are absoluely standardized

With the same positions for where the holes for hinges and drawer mounts go. The hardware to attach fronts to drawers come with the drawers so all you have to do is drill the holes in the correct places - you can make a jig and whip that part out. The layout for the drawer front jig is on the IKEAfans site - I uploaded it. ;)

The hinges are ordered separately from the boxes and the doors, so those are easy to get. The IKEAfans.com site has (somewhere) the measurements for hole positions and the standard sizes for the doors and drawers. Others there have made their own fronts, so the hardest part - figuring out sizes and such, has been done and shared. I think the info is in the Article section under Modifications.

Installing the IKEA boxes is so much easier than regular cabinetry installation, even if you do not use their plastic, adjustable legs. We made a frame of 2x4s for a lower toe kick and slightly lower counter height. Once that was leveled, it was just a matter of setting the boxes into places and shimming where the walls were not absolutely square. Once you get the hang of assembly, the boxes go together in just a few minutes, so that will save a tremendous amount of time.

IKEAfans is another place with very generous people - though I suspect some may be conservatives, they do not display those characteristics on the forums. The only caution is that they are very enthusiastic about IKEA products, especially the kitchen stuff. So be prepared to put up with totally kitchen obsessives to get to the info you need!

It sounds as though you are progressing nicely with the house if you are getting the foundation done. I look forward to keeping up with your progress!

[Warpy]

63. Are you planning to feed the People's Liberation Army?

How long will you go between shopping trips? If you're having a dinner party, how long do you need to shop ahead?

My own pantry ideal tends, like everything else, toward the smaller rather than larger. I've had a large one and things do tend to get a bit lost.

A wall pantry should have pull out shelves. A room pantry should have open and reasonably shallow shelves and enough of a space to set a tray down so that items can be loaded onto it and transferred to the work area.

I always use top pantry shelves for storing large baking gear like half sheet pans. Lower shelves are for food.

Whatever you do, don't store appliances in the pantry. Anything you don't have on the counter is simply not going to be used since it's more trouble to drag it out and put it back than it is to do the job by hand.

[WhiteTara]

74. that seems so high

how do you get to the top shelf?

[Tesha]

66. look at this option...

O is your ovens
F is your fridge

the P marks floor to ceiling pantry cupboards with pull out shelves
I find them a great tool - space saving, yet everything is completely accessable
and they store tons of stuff!

but if you DO have a pantry room consider a sliding door to make better use of space

[Gregorian]

70. Thanks for this idea!

It's something to incorporate into the design ideas. It seems each idea has benefits and drawbacks. It's a kitchen chess game.

I think I like your idea more than what I've been working toward.

And yes, my mom was saying a sliding door could be a smart move.

I really appreciate it when someone takes time and thinks about something I'm trying to accomplish. It's really a form of giving and support. Thanks so much!

[katkat]

21. not too much space and counter heights etc.

My best kitchen was in an apartment. I could reach everything just by turning around. My current kitchen has way wasted space in the middle. Of course, for multiple cooks, this wouldn't work.

I'm tall; I would look at the best counter heights so the cooks don't get cricks in their backs.

Easy to get at storage esp. in those odd corner cabinets. Drawers that pull all the way out. Storage for cookie sheets and other large items.

I have not solved the dishwasher problem of dirty dishes piling up in the sink while the clean ones air dry. Maybe those double half size dishwashers are okay if they aren't energy hogs.

I love old stoves, so if I were doing a kitchen over, I'd have one of those.

Gas, so you can still cook when the power goes out.

My pet peeve about cleaning both the kitchen and bathroom is how hard it is to get between the faucets and the backsplash, and cleaning in between the faucets and the center part in an integrated faucet arrangement. So I would get more space in those areas and probably use those offset faucets or whatever they're called.

I hate bumping my head on the exhaust hood over the range.

A pantry, lots of room for food storage, esp. if someone cans, plus the equivalent of a root cellar if you don't have room for that elsewhere.

I have three bins for recyclables under a desk in my kitchen. Very handy, because I sort the mail in the kitchen so a lot of paper goes immediately into the paper bin. I would like room for a temporary headed-for-the-compost pile container on the counter.

A deep counter space. My apartment kitchen had one with no cabinets over it, just a short wall on the back that shielded it from the living room. It was great to work at. I've never understood why people want to work on islands with the mess of slopping stuff over there and back instead of something like this.

[Tesha]

27. Good point about gas!

katkat:

> Gas, so you can still cook when the power goes out.

Good point! I realize that the question of "Gas, electric, or induction?"
is an emotional one, but for us, gas wins for several reasons:

o You can cook during power outages. Sure, our igniters are electric,
but matches still work! (Our grill needs mains electricity to run the
oven-style carbide igniter and gas valve, and the grill is difficult or
dangerous to use without the vent hood running full blast above it.)
Here in new England, where we've had major winter power outages
that last days/weeks, that's a *BIG* plus for us. With all that food
getting set to spoil in the freezer, it's awfully nice to be able to cook
and eat some of it!

o Gas adjusts rapidly. (So does induction, of course.)

o The gas cooktop stands up well to all the pan-shaking and tough
usage that I give it. Ceramic and induction wouldn't be as rugged.

o Ours cleans pretty easily, being all stainless steel except for
the trivets and the grill guts.

o The gas cooktop cooks with any style of cookware, from aluminum
to stainless steel to cast iron. Induction requires magnetic steels
that will heat by Eddy current losses.

o In our area, heat BTUs bought via gas are a lot cheaper than
heat BTUs bought via electricity and probably more carbon-friendly.
Now admittedly, a cooktop doesn't take a huge amount of either,
but every little bit helps...

And then there's that grill that we like so much; a really-competent,
very-high-output grill is a pretty rare feature in any electrically-fueled
cooktop.

Tesha

[Gregorian]

32. You address some of my issues as well.

The faucet cleaning area thing. I totally agree. And the whole messy part of kitchen affairs is something easy to overlook. Thanks for the ideas. I can see this is going to be a lot of work. Junk mail isn't an insignificant thing these days. I'm afraid I'll be running out of room quickly, especially since I want 32 inch wide countertops. I like having room for what I'm doing as well as other stuff like cookbook or mixer.

[Tesha]

28. Design it so it fits *YOU*.

A number of folks have made this point in separate replies, but it can't
be over-emphasized so I'll say it again:

You're designing this kitchen *FOR YOU* so as you lay things out,
take into account your own height and reach. So:

o You should be able to work comfortably at the heights of the
counters, island, cooktop, and ovens. Consider whether you'll
work standing, sitting, or both. You shouldn't bump your head
into things like your vent hood or any suspended racks holding
pots and pans or other equipment. Remember that you'll
occasionally be moving around your kitchen in the dark.

o You have to be able to reach your daily storage areas. It's okay
to have a cabinet shelf that's so high you can't reach it without
a chair; you can put the Christmas Cookie makings up there.
But it's not okay to have your principal, daily-use pots and pans
up there.

o You have to also be able to reach the back of your countertops,
if only for the occasional cleaning.

o Consider what you'll have to bend over to access. In my case,
one deficit is that my big mixer is "programmed" to be stored in
the bottom of a cabinet and it's tough for me to get that big,
heavy mixer in and out of there so it tends to sit out on the
island more than it might otherwise.

o Consider how much aisle space *YOU* (and your partner or
co-workers) need to move around in.

o Consider your eye level. What goes there? In cabinets, the
most-commonly used stuff. And you may want to put an oven,
a toaster oven, or a microwave oven there too.

o And, as many people have mentioned, place everything near where
*YOU* envision yourself using them. Try these proposed arrangements
out as "thought experiments" and keep adjusting the plan until it's as
perfect as possible *FOR YOU*.

Tesha

[Tesha]

29. Full-scale prototyping

We saw this trick on This Old House so it's not original with me,
but if you can, one thing you should definitely do is "full-scale
prototyping".

When you think you've actually got your design close to nailed,
start mocking it up. Use big pieces of cardboard or plywood
scraps or what-have-you and cut them to the size of the
various counter sections and appliance tops. Lay them out,
and travel around your new "kitchen". See what works and
what doesn't.

It was by using this method that we finally figured out what
were the minimum clearances at the various "choke points"
in our kitchen. It was then, for example, that we finally accepted
that we just weren't going to be able to shoe-horn in the 48"
cooktop and the 36" would have to do. It was then that we
finally set the dimensions of the wall adds/deletes and the
island.

It's not much work, it will make you much more confident of
your design, and it can be a lot of fun and help you envision
the end result.

Tesha

[Gregorian]

33. I have the entire thing in Autocad.

I can move around in it, open doors, stretch countertop size.

It is a thought experiment. I like that.

It's odd that I find myself unhappy in kitchens people themselves like. My parents have a kitchen they love, and I really can't understand how they like it. I feel totally uncomfortable in it. Not the least of which is their tile countertops. Yuck. If I have my way this whole kitchen is going to be stainless. I fear what others say may be true. But I saw this done in a house last week, and I loved it. The house is steel. All steel. And I may just follow that motif all the way thruogh. But it cuold be coldish.

I've even fought over things like 36 inch doors in all of my rooms. 36 inch hallways in the house. I like room.

Fortunately I am only in the preliminary stage of doing the kitchen layout. I have to get it now since it's all a slab construction, and everything has to be in place before I engineer the slab.


I appreciate your replies. You must have a great interest in kitchens. I just hope I don't find myself running out of room. Between the 6 burner rangetop and the 30 inch charbroiler, I've already used up a lot.

[ginnyinWI]

34. favorites and unfavorites

I have a traditional kitchen-dinette plan, about 20 ft long and 12 feet wide. The countertop is U-shaped and open to the dinette. Window over the sink, fridge on the wall opposite the U, with a cabinet to the right with a shelf for the microwave and a small countertop to the left.

I like: my granite countertops. They are great for kneading bread and rolling out pastry, and are heat-proof.
my stainless steel double well sink.
the countertop penninsula that is open to the dinette--I can be working at peeling something and see through the dinette into the family room. It works great for serving food.
sliding window over the kitchen sink--much easier to open than a traditonal double-hung window, because you have to reach across the sink
pot rack above the penninsula holds all my stainless steel cookware within easy reach
next to the refrigerator we have a "toast station" with a toaster, a place to keep jam and peanut butter, a pull out cutting board and a drawer holding plastic wrap and bags and stuff. You pull stuff out of the fridge and make a sandwich easily.


I don't like: the cabinets are too narrow--some lower ones only about a foot wide which makes putting things in them difficult. There are two wider ones but the rest are narrow.
same thing with the drawers--too narrow.
it would be nice to have some track lighting.
there is no nice place to keep the garbage can. It's on the end of one line of countertop, but it is in the traffic path from the garage/laundry room area into the kitchen. The only other spot would be right next to the dinette and that wouldn't do. Under the sink there isn't enough space because of the placement of the pipes.

[Gregorian]

36. This has given me some ideas.

I may just drop the island, and fill in the one side with more cabinets. Aha, you may have given me a few more feet of kitchen. A peninsula is an island with one piece attached.

I love this kind of stuff. I'm out on my tractor, grading the build site, and designing a kitchen at the same time. I love being the one doing the work. That's why I got rid of the architect just as soon as I felt comfortable doing that job. Tons of money saved, no waiting around, I can spend more time than him. I find this a very exciting project.

And I will post this house when it all gets going.

[ginnyinWI]

45. pictures

We took these right after the new countertop job. Before it was just an off-white laminate. We also redid the flooring in a vinyl that picks up the idea of the pattern in the granite countertop. I painted the walls yellow but now I'm not too crazy about that. It's a north facing kitchen that I was trying to warm up but I think I went a little too bright. Plan on toning it down sometime soon.

There is a dishwasher near the inside corner of the penninsula, very handy for loading dishes that get cleared off the table. This was taken prior to replacing the window over the kitchen sink with a nice double glazed sliding window.

[katkat]

35. doors

I echo you on wide doors (and hallways with turning room). I broke my foot a couple of years ago and it rapidly became apparent my house was not handicapped friendly. Small changes can make things much easier.

[Gregorian]

37. Commercial all the way!

I originally found my architect because he was building a winery in the area. It had exactly what I was trying do with my house. He had me doing all kinds of stuff that ended up being very nice, but rather expensive.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Lots and lots of good suggestions here. Mine is about sinks.

I'd put in two sinks in two different places if you have the room. Your plan (upthread) indicates your island is going to grow. Consider a sink there, even if only a 12x12 bar sink. That gives you two prep stations. We wish we had a second prep station. We have a corner sink, so we can work on each side of it, but still it gets crowded there.

Also consider an extra deep sink. At least 10" deep. That way you can get even the biggest pot in there. Also, when you're busy, you can store a LOT of dirty pots in there until you get to them.

Most of all, think how you and your family will be using the kitchen. Our biggest wish is to have created a bar where our guests can sit while we cook.

My ideal kitchen would be similar to the one that was the set for the old Molto Mario shows on Food Network.

[Gregorian]

41. Sinks. Another entire topic!

I don't recall Mario's kitchen. I searched, and came up with nothing. Now I'm curious.

I was noticing the kitchen in Absolutely Fabulous the other day. Three stoves!

By the way, I nabbed a Viking six burner rangetop off of Craigslist. I went with sealed burners. I hope it isn't a mistake. It's a pretty nice unit. Not quite as heavy as I would like. But certainly more substantial than the tin that's out there.

Yes, a sink in the island is something I have to get way up front since this is a slab foundation. That stuff all has to stub up in the cement pouring segment of the project.

I want a big sink. It's tough washing these 5 gallon Volraths in tiny sinks. I tend to make lunch in two week batches. I made 5 gallons of chicken soup yesterday. Not an easy project in an RV kitchen. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

43. It was essentially a U-shaped kitchen ..... not unlike your plan (upthread) ....

Imagine your island becoming a peninsula, engaging the main counter by growing plan left. That creates the U. Now swap your range and sink. That puts the cooking surface at a right angle to the peninsula. Now put seating along the plan bottom of the peninsula and you have his set. The peninsula was quite deep to allow seating on one side and work on the other, literally right in front of guests, who still have room to eat.

[Gregorian]

46. That's one I will try when I start playing around with things.

Thanks.

I am enjoying this. A lot. And there's something about doing this with people of like minds. You know what I mean. DU. Thanks.

[mtnester]

39. As someone who has an elbow that is simply not healing, and I have trouble lifting ANYTHING

I am super conscious about making a kitchen that is as friendly to as many type of disabilities as possible. No one plans on getting into a wheelchair or a walker, but it happens. Also, when you stop being able to grip things well, the idea of high shelved cabinets becomes almost impossible to deal with. Plus, with many of us that will be a multi family home with our parents coming into their later years living in our homes this makes sense

I would do as big a pantry as possible, and if you can swing a butlers pantry even better (picks up the extra sink Stinky talked about). If I had my dream kitchen I would have a walk in fireplace for hearth cookery and a pizza oven, but then again I also want to be able to fly on my own, so...a hearth room is on my list.

Some place to tuck away a TV and consider as much technology as possible for that area..maybe a fiber run or a wireless speaker to get your music in there...so many ideas.

The suggestion for a lower counter for things like bread dough, etc is also a very good idea.

Now, I cannot help you with the lottery required for my wish list, but if you have any pull with the Mega Millions folks...I could use a good word.

[Gregorian]

42. I will look back at pantry size when the kitchen design moves along.

It was bigger when I first started. I don't like how my bedroom closet is bigger than the pantry. I'd really also like a sauna. Oh well. I can only afford so much floor area.

The speaker is a great idea. I'm definitely going to do that. I always want music wherever I go. I'll be making notes of this thread. Great stuff.

I think I'll be modeling more than I had originally thought. Sawhorses with plywood will be on the list of things to experiment with.

I feel so privileged to be able to build this thing. I just can't wait to post the results. It's going to be a year. Maybe more.

Cheers.

[Dover]

48. I have thought and dreamed about the ideal kitchen for some time...

How wonderful to actually have the skills to make it happen!
What style architecture do you like and/or will you be using?

The more kitchens I look at the more my tastes change. A few years
ago I liked the look of the old rural French kitchens with the big old/new stoves and vents, butcher block islands, earthy materials, etc. and then I began to like a cleaner more minimalist, contemporary look. What to do!

Most recently I fell hard for this award-winning house design. I love the way the whole thing flows and integrates the natural landscape. The kitchen is literally at the center of the house and divides the private family area from the more public space. It is a 'sunken kitchen' to maintain a certain eye level that is aligned with its surroundings, creating a more intimate relationship to the outdoor views. And to carry it a step further, the kitchen has a 'green roof' planted with grasses among other green features throughout the house.

In this design, the island IS the kitchen.
I like how open, bright, clean and self-contained the kitchen looks but have wondered how realistic it is.
At least for me and my messes!
If the island were enclosed by walls I imagine it would feel like a small space. But where is the frig? I suppose it uses the new refrigerated drawers. What about broom closet/pantry, overhead cabinets and such? I would love it if this actually worked but I'd have to live in it for awhile to know if it would work for me.
BTW, I love the informal seating area 'booth' with a view.
What do you think? Is this a functional kitchen?


Here are a few pics:

In this photo the kitchen is directly ahead at the end of
the pool. The family area (bedrooms,etc.) is to the right, the livingroom/formal dining to the left.

?w=150&h=100 View from sunken kitchen.



More and larger pictures here:

http://plusmood.com/2009/04/the-vienna-way-residence-marmol-radziner-and-associates/

http://swipelife.com/2009/04/23/vienna-way-residence-by-marmol-radziner/

http://www.homedesignfind.com/architecture/vienna-way-residence-by-marmol-radziner-the-essence-of-easy-living/

http://www.asla.org/2009awards/612.html

[Gregorian]

49. Here's my elevation and floor plan

I am running around on a tractor getting ready for erection of the garage/shop right now. So I haven't had a chance to look at your post in depth.

If you haven't already, Dwell is an interesting architectural magazine.

This house is an all steel, "modern" kind of structure. Clerestories above much of the length of the house. It has an atrium which is more like a courtyard since one end is open. The house sits in a redwood forest. There's an upper roof that is called a monitor. That's the living room area. Walls are 10 high at the outside, making the living room something like 16 feet or so. It's a combination of many years of collecting architectural designs, and them combining them into one I like.

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[Dover]

50. Now that's what I call multi-tasking!

If, when you've dismounted from your tractor, you have any further thoughts about the user-friendliness of the above design, I'd be interested to hear it.

I used to subscribe to Dwell, but have generally felt their featured homes to be too boxy and obsessed with what feels a bit too anal relative to efficiency. And too self-centered relative to their relationship to their surroundings.
I can accept a modular contemporary style if it still manages to respond to and become integrated into its surroundings and has warmth. That's why I responded to the above plan. It looks like it was made for that space rather than some pre-designed box dropped onto a site without any relationship to it. In this case the landscaping (rather than its existing habitat) was critical to getting that feel.
BTW, the architect also creates some of those modular homes for Dwell.

Your lot/location sounds wonderful. You forgot to include your plans in
the post. Looking forward to seeing what you're up to.

[Gregorian]

51. Try mousing to the right. The image I posted is huge.

I like that Italian house. I'm fairly minimalist in my taste. But I don't like that kitchen. There isn't enough there there. The oven scrunched down in the corner doesn't work for me.

I am thinking of a modification of an island and a peninsula. Sort of wrapping the counters around the island a bit more than just two sides.

I admit feeling odd about all of this consumption. If you've read any of my posts on environmental subjects, I cringe at my carbon Bigfootprint right now.

And this project is rather difficult. I just spent three months forming for the concrete retaining wall for the shop/garage. Just incredible amounts of effort. And then I look at the phenomenal artwork a friend of mine has done. He takes unbuildable lots and works with them. I saw one of his houses last week that is 500 cubic yards of concrete that is pretty much a vertical retaining wall of a house.

I can't wait for it to be over. It has been two solid years, and I"m only just beginning to put up the garage! Ugh.

But it's going to be unique in that it's a new kind of building system that hasn't been done before. All steel.

Here's a pic of the shop as it's going up-

[Dover]

52. Wow...that's massive. A great looking work space/garage.

And I can only imagine how much work is involved. That's a long time to be working on it. Kind of makes the whole prefab idea start to look good, eh?

And speaking of work, I agree about the kitchen I posted and was thinking the same thing about that stove in the corner as well. Seems like that kitchen might suit a short person, but otherwise I'll bet there would be a lot of bending over.
And those pretty countertops don't seem the best choice to hold up to any serious cooking as a work surface. I would love to have a kitchen where EVERYTHING was situated above the knee level. However it would leave a lot of wasted space.

And I would like to hear from someone living in a house with as much glass as that one I posted. Does it require frequent cleaning? I'm always thinking about ways to keep cleaning and maintenance at a minimum. Me no like chores. :P

So I'm curious - how is your steel skeleton different than other metal framed-out buildings?
I ask because it seems like there are a lot of metal buildings going up in this area...everything from work/retail spaces to churches...I suppose because it's cheaper/faster than regular construction. Don't know if people are also building metal residential structures, though. So what are your thoughts about metal vs. other (perhaps more earth friendly) materials and the choices you are making?
In other words, what led you in this direction as opposed to another?
Your friend's projects sound intriguing. I think sometimes the more limitations a space has the more creative the solutions. If options are wide open it's a bit more daunting somehow.

BTW - I could not find your elevation drawings in your previous post - no non-text links/photos. But I like what you described about the peninsula.

[Gregorian]

54. I believe that whatever one does should be inspiring.

I detest prefab. I will admit that I'm just about at the end of my rope here. And I still have a house to build. But I had a conversation with a friend the other day about creating things. To put one's full being into something is what distinguishes us from _____. I can't remember the conversation. But it was just brilliant. It even included politics. It was pretty much, if you do something that's half assed, it's just that. Although this does translate to money.

I grew up in a house with huge windows. Cleaning them wasn't an issue. We had huge eaves. But the house I was at this week had as much glass as the one in the photo, and it was a mess. But then the waves were crashing right outside the house.

I decided to do a steel structural design because I wanted a house without any load bearing walls. And it's engineered by a company, which allows me to abandon an architect, pretty much. And I like steel. Oh, and the last property I owned I left because of logging. I'd rather mine than log.

[Dover]

64. YOU'RE inspiring!

I admire you for braving this project and seeing it through. I've heard enough stories from those who have built their own places about the highs and lows, exhaustive details, delays and changes. And so glad you have people around to encourage you along the way. I've also heard how quickly the difficult memories fade after the birth of one's vision. So hang in there!

And thanks for explaining the use of the steel. Of course, I'd forgotten the
the best reason for using it....the potential for vast open spaces and non-load-bearing walls.

Hope I'm around here to see the finished house. :hi:

[spinbaby]

59. Get a good range hood

We have a very noisy Ventahood that's got so much pull it practically pulls the lids off the pots. But we can cook smelly food without stinking up the house and the kitchen doesn't get greasy. I wouldn't be without it.

[Gregorian]

62. You might put a variable speed control on that thing.

In another post Sinky the Clown was advising against commercial appliances because of things like what you mention.

Fans have a curve to them. But I'd still put a big dimmer switch on that hood. In fact, some come that way. Anything will do as long as it's rated for the motor power.

I may make my own hood. I've got a six burner rangetop, and a 30 inch charbroiler. That's a lot of vent area. And I don't want to buy a hood for ten grand.

This is a lot of work. A hood on the island, or a hood on the outside wall. But that's why I posted this. I really do appreciate all of the comments. Thanks.

Now that I read your post again, I see that you aren't complaining. I agree with you. My last house had one of those backdraft things. It didn't work at all. I like stuff that works.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. Will you come down to the East Bay and redesign my kitchen? Please?

The kitchen in my house was designed by someone who not only didn't cook but had never watched anyone cook. It's a wide galley that doubles as hallway from the main living quarters to the garage and patio. Utterly useless for dinner parties when everyone wants to circulate before seating.

My recommendation to you is this: make sure that people can circulate in the kitchen without bothering the cook(s).

Oh and having the oven separate from the rangetop is a great idea.

[Gregorian]

71. East Bay!

I remember hanging out at a loft when lofts were in the industrial part of Oakland. Man those were the days. And kitchens were a hotplate and a minifridge.

I'd love to help. Not that I have a clue what I'm doing. I think it's a combination of time, money, and just imagining what if.

Cheers!

[WhiteTara]

73. a recycling center in the kitchen

is so handy. Unless you are in a single stream system, it really helps to not have to go outside to handle the recycles.

[Gregorian]

76. Interesting. I hope I have enough room for that.

My recycling is currently a big pile of bags in my "kitchen". Considering I go to the dump less than once a year, it does make for a fairly big pile of recycling. Hmmm. Still a good idea.

[WhiteTara]

79. stack them in a drawer fashion

that way you get the most for the floor space. sure beats nasty bags on the floor.

[Stinky The Clown]

83. For what its worth, single stream/comingled recycling is where we're headed

Separation is an interim step - a good one - but a step along the way. Kinda like hybrid cars while we wait for electrics.

[Inchworm]

75. You know that wasted space in front of the sink?

I always thought it would be cool to have a shallow, length of sink, drawer or fold out type thing with 2 faces.

You open both faces and load nekkid rolls of saran wrap, parchment paper, foil..etc then feed material through first face that has serrated edge then close first face. The second face is what you see outside and the one you open when you want any of these rolled goods. To use.. open face pull out saran wrap and cut ...voila!

Depending on length of sink and other factors most people could have two or three rolls of something there :P

Ok... I dream :D

:hi:

[Gregorian]

77. I love things like this.

Very cool. I've made things out of scrap steel I found at a Sears Roebuck repair center when I was a student of engineering. Some unique designs. But I like the idea of hiding thing out of sight. I have a hard enough time being organized. I once bought a commercial sized roll of plastic wrap. I suppose they're still available. Make a compartment for it like you mention.

I wish I weren't so overwhelmed with the whole process of construction. I just finished all of the drainage here. A hell of a lot of thinking and work. Hundreds of feet of trenching. All sloping down to drains over the hillsides. And the mud. Trying to keep it rocked so trucks don't sink in. I'm trying to pull off a job that was estimated at 1.2 million, but for less than half that. I'm doing it. It makes thinking about the finish details a little daunting. I can't wait for a roof! :)

[catnhatnh]

80. I'll jump in late...

I saw your floor diagram. In old fashion kitchen design (with basically just the one heating appliance-say a 4 burner cooktop with an oven and broiler below) the ideal was the absolute shortest movement triangle between the big three-fridge, sink, and stove. Yours seems elongated from sink to the other two though this might be mitigated by multiple cooking devices...Given my choice on sinks and in line with Stinky's suggestion how about making the main sink a huge,deep single basin and adding a smaller hand washing/prep sink-WITH the garbage disposal on the small sink if one is planned? On appliances, and in my dream/unlimited budget kitchen I'd want 2 more appliances.

1.Flat top griddle. Because nothing beats it for serving a crowd and it is a breakfast champion.Charbroil tops are super but don't get the eggs and hashbrowns done. Charbroil pancakes are an epic fail. Also works on all meats or holding finished pots and pans but it is number one in my home fantasy. So if you are a breakfast guy like me....

2.Drop in single bay electric steam table with assorted sized pans and covers and a drop over cutting board for while not in use. The ULTIMATE entertaining devise...can hold 1-9 pans of hot food for 6 hours or more. Think "Super Bowl party". Think hot wings, chili, sausages, and more...now think where to plug in four crock pots or more. most of the time it's just a hole under a 14" x20" cutting board but at party time the board moves to available counter space and the steamer becomes king. Easier clean up than crock pots too.

If I keep reading this thread I'll become an annoying nag but I hope you'll consider these.

[Gregorian]

81. A small sink with disposal is planned for the island.

As I read your post I was thinking about a stovetop I ran into on Craigslist. Check out the French stovetops. It's like a griddle. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed like a very interesting stove concept. I hadn't seen it before.

I'm realizing kitchen design has a lot to do with lifestyle. I'll be honest. I'm a total hermit. I don't do parties. Not any more. I live alone. And that's how I like it. So this is really my little private clubhouse. The only sports I'm into are the month of July. Tour de France. I even avoid the bicycling club, against the cries of the bikers I run into on the trails. And whose asses I routinely kick. Haha.

I'm telling more than I should. But now that the thread is big enough I can risk it. I guess being a loner is nothing to feel bad about. My mom and dad are the same way. Today I turned 54. I used to be the life of the parties. One thing led to another, and I just ended up with cats as friends. And now even they are gone. Well, that was depressing huh? :)

[catnhatnh]

82. Well this Cat is willing to be your friend.

The most important thing should be high recovery/fast reaction stuff. Really the ideal would be then a 24" 12 and 12 flat top and char broiler.

Nothing on earth wrong with being by yourself. I'm not depressed. Happy birthday KID-I turned 56 a month or so ago.

Mostly if you like yourself it's all OK. As in what you see on channel 167 is no more real than any Chimera and when the smoke clears you are the only one who needs to be happy-not something they try to sell you about "RELATIONSHIPS".

Plan your kitchen. Sorry if my shit was worthless.

[Gregorian]

85. :)

That was one of the worst days I've had in a long time. Two years in this RV! The first thing that happened yesterday was the shower pump stopped while I was trying to warm up in the a.m.. I got all pissed off because Obama's speech video stream died just as he started. Internet connection is one of a couple major issues I get upset about.

This forum continues to amaze me. I think sharing political sentiments is really a big deal. It makes discussion of things like kitchens so much nicer. Thanks for the support!

Off to go slog through the mud and keep the drainage properly flowing.

[hippywife]

87. Happy Belated, Gregorian.