Question re: Rove and Bush

[emcguffie]

Can any of you pros pinpoint what in these charts could be indicative of dishonesty? Or is it self-deception? Or both?

Can you tell from a chart whether it is more likely to indicate dishonesty or honor? Or can they go either way, and it is all up to the native?

What was it in Hitler's chart?

Thanks, if any of you have time to address this.

[Trillo]

1. I'm replying mostly to make the 0 go away.

:)
I can't precisely answer your question, nor do I consider myself a "pro", I hope I've been clear here at DU in a number of posts that I'm a student of astrology, and likely a non-traditional student at that.

First off, I haven't specifically studied Rove and Bush's charts together, for me, analyzing a chart is extremely time consuming, perhaps because I'm more interested (or talented ? ) with limited technical aspects of it than with the interpretive, which I always have to "look up" in a reference text and which bugs me interminally. Second, and this is where I believe astrology can be vastly improved, it tends to deal with generalized trends, basing specific individual decisions of the moment upon those trends appears to me to be near impossible.

I also haven't studied Hitler's chart, but do you know that Hitler is one of the examples of which pseudo-skeptics like to exploit to "debunk" astrology?

In thinking about your questions over several long moments, I think there are times in our lives that the (I'll use the term) "universe" presents our personal or public lives with a decision crossroads, places in time where we can choose to take the "left" path or the "right" path. Which one we take, from what I've been able to understand, is not as well predicted in astrology as the times that we're presented with the crossroads.

Does that make any sense? I hope I've explained it well enough that you're satisfied that at least one answered you.

Edit: deleted a phrase I was uncomfortable with.

[emcguffie]

2. thanks for that.

I used to be a fairly serious student of astrology, but lost the time for it. Now I'm interested again because I am so worried about the world.

Doing the synthesizing was too difficult for me. Coming up with the sum of the parts.

I haven't looked at Bush's chart in a while, and now I think I remember wherever I saw Rove's -- a thread on this page -- it isn't a birthtime chart, so we don't know what his ascendant is. I think. I'm going to go look.

I am always puzzled by charts that are all in one quadrant, or nearly so, which I think describes dubya's. Hitler's, if I remember correctly, is a bucket.

I have to go find dubya's.

[Trillo]

3. Okay, maybe we can teach each other a little?

Bucket versus Bundle. One of the many items my modest-to-spartan sized astrology book collection doesn't seem to delve into at all.

Lois Rodden's Astrodatabank.com has GWBush's data, as well as Hiter's:

Adolf Hitler
04/20/1889 (April 20, 1889)
18:30 (06:30 PM) LMT
Branau am Inn, Austria
48 N 15
13 E 02

Perhaps Hitler's chart is a bucket. Bob Marks (bobmarksastrologer.com) has some interesting things to say about these types of charts. Marks calls a Bucket chart a Funnel chart. It does appear that Hitler's chart shows Uranus in the 12th house as the handle of a bucket. The 12th house is a strong point of a chart according to the Gauquelin research; a weak point of the chart meaning malefic according to traditional, ancient astrologers as Deborah Houlding informs us. A majority of his planets are above the horizon on the westward side of his chart, which means, traditionally, closer to darkness.
--That's all on Hitler for now.


George W. Bush
07/06/1946 (July 6, 1946)
07:26 (7:26 AM) EDT (+4:00)
New Haven, CT
41 N 18
72 W 55

It appears Bush's chart is a classic bundle chart, with Gemini and Libra being the two air sign endpoints in trine. This may indicate a certain ability to focus, but also a lack of balance. Marks writes, "They are simply less influenced by what goes on outside of themselves. They are more likely to create and live in their own little world." This seems to be enhanced by the predominate below the horizon placement of the majority of Bush's planets, but attenuated by the eastward placements, which means 'far from the dark of night.'

Curiously and according to Marks, the attorney Robert Shapiro of OJ trial fame has a similar bundle chart and he notes that little is publicly known of Shapiro's personal life.

Can we assume that Bush's true inner world is hidden from us? (Look at his moves toward secrecy in government. The limitations imposed upon press coverage.) Or can we assume, from his actions as President, to know more about that inner life that he appears to want to hide from public view? War on Terror instead of Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism. Elimination or scaling back of Civil Rights through the Patriot Act. Save Social Security so his corporatist buddies can profit from private accounts? Lining the pockets of the energy cartel--which may provide the answer to the true purpose of government propaganda surrounding the Iraq war. Telling us he's going to fund alternative energy such as hydrogen during campaigning, while pushing an energy bill that seeks to grant largess to the carbon-based energy conglomerate that scientists tell us is responsible, at least in part, for global warming. Starting a mental health program that seeks to create a vast database of medical information on Americans that is shared with 25 Federal agencies and owned by the State the citizen lives in. Etcetera....

"Transparency for citizens: secrecy for the government and his administration," seems to be a recurring theme of his Presidential orders. Certainly, your observation of deception rings true, yet are we deceived when Bush's focused actions speak so loudly? Where this deception occurs in the astrological chart is a different matter.

It's often stated that Neptune can confer the quality of confusion and deception in its afflicted states, and sensitivity in its less afflicted states. Neptune is the ruler of Pisces, according to Astrolog, which is in Bush's empty 8th house, and which his natal 2nd house Neptune opposes. However, Neptune was unknown by classical astrologers, so this must be a modern rulership system. Regarding rulerships, there is quite a bit of confusion, contradictory texts and online information, etc., so I have been hesitant to put much significance into these schemes, at least so far.

Sakoian and Acker claim that houses show us where, regardless of zodiacal sign, activity takes place. Bob Marks tells us, "Every planet has a "function" and every house indicates the area of your life where that planet chiefly operates".

Neptune in the 2nd house could have to do with confusion regarding one's own wealth when viewed within an external paradigm. Marks says this placement has to do with large-scale financial schemes. Sakoian and Acker claim money may come and go through mysterious means, that there may be dependence upon others for financial support and a general impractical-ness with money, further, they claim this is more likely if its afflicted. Hand divides all houses into three levels, an internal, relational, and external level, of which the prior definitions would fit within the last, external level. The Ebertins don't appear to distinguish between house and sign correspondences, which according to Houlder is incorrect in her traditional criticism of Ralph Holden's ideas, nevertheless the Ebertins state there are issues with substance abuse, ill-conceived speculations, moodiness, a certain tactfulness (likely the Neptunian 'sensitivity' to others), and strange sources of income. Llewellyn George mentions secret societies, and that financial gain or loss in this house depends upon its affliction or lack thereof.

However, the 2nd house Neptune information above is based upon the equal house system chart as shown on Rodden's Astrodatabank site, which isn't the only way of viewing a chart. I use Koch houses, simply because they were suggested to me years ago by someone much more experienced than I; Placidus is a widely used house system among modern western astrologers: both systems place Bush's Neptune in the 3rd house. This changes where the Neptunian activity takes place, at least somewhat. Hand claims that house cusps may be indicative of the strongest point of influence in a house, that this is how the Greeks used houses, and that the actual house division line may in fact be prior to it, about 3-7 degrees before the cusp, or is perhaps indicative of a blending of the 2nd and 3rd house. Therefore, even with an equal house system, since Bush's 2nd house Neptune is approximately 2 degrees applying to the 3rd house cusp, it is within the bounds of 3rd house activity, or the area of a blending of 2nd and 3rd house activity. So, how does a 3rd house Neptune placement change chart activity and interpretation?

Neptune in the 3nd house could have to do with confusion regarding brothers, sisters, neighbors, and communications when viewed within an external paradigm. Marks says this placement has to do with problems "balancing the books" and suggests its a great placement for a word-artist that fails to characterize the real world. Sakoian and Acker claim there's an interest in occult and mystical subjects, that visualization may be highly developed, and that there can be a connection to mass-media, they further caution that those with Neptune in this position must be impartial in their communications, that if Neptune is afflicted, there can be issues with neighbors, as well as learning disabilities and a tendency to fantasize, and that natives will often have pseudonyms and nicknames. The Ebertins state there can be sensitiveness, a deep feeling and affectionate nature on the positive side, on the negative side can be issues of hypersensitivity, melancholy and soul-suffering. Llewellyn George mentions spiritual perception, an inventive mind, and investigation of the occult or mysterious; weird feelings, difficulties with relatives, schemes, deceit; if poorly aspected hallucinations, morbid fancies and depraved tastes; if well aspected, artistic tastes and/or appreciation of an exalted order, intuitive insights, and the possibility of inspired communications.


In looking at Rove's chart in the same wheel as Bush's, what I first note is that Rove's Neptune is 19 Libra 20 and consequently very close to Bush's Jupiter at 18 Lib 08 conjunct Moon at 16 Lib 42. Expansive imagination, fantasy and subconscious emotions; possible deception; also sensitivity and perception. Rove is perceptive and sensitive to Bush's social side, perhaps he's playing Bush like a fiddle, just like he's played Valerie Plame and all the rest of us.

Upon a little deeper look, Rove's natal Neptune is part of a T-square with his natal Mercury and Moon.

I'm tired, maybe more later. Maybe others will comment.

[Why Syzygy]

4. I'm really glad

that his inner life is hidden from us. And there is no doubt that it is. I just don't want to think about that spooky stuff, especially the zombie-Pickles. There is no sense of decency.

This post gave me a big deja-vu.

[Trillo]

5. Perhaps this will give less "deja vu",

Bush's geocentric natal has a 49th harmonic Moon/Uranus/Pluto conjunction that's activated by transiting Sun/Moon/Saturn/Mercury on Aug 10th. I've circled where it's located.
http://gaiastream.com.nyud.net:8090/kenklaser/astrologycharts/gwbush_aug6_aug16_2005_2.gif

Because that chart type may not be as easy for some to understand, here's a one-moment chart, with Bush's 49th harmonic natal on the inner wheel. The houses and zodiacal signs are meaningless in this chart.
http://gaiastream.com.nyud.net:8090/kenklaser/astrologycharts/gwbush_aug6_aug16_2005_astrolog.gif

It'll be interesting to watch the news on that day. Keeping in mind the hidden inner life, perhaps we'll hear nothing. Could a woman be involved with both natal and transiting Moon occupying the seventh-of-a-septile harmonic points?

Edit: typos and clarity

[lavenderdiva]

6. Could the woman be Cindy Sheehan?

[Trillo]

7. I don't know.

At a minimum, I'd need her chart data for comparison. There are several women that are being suggested as possibilities. With all their charts, it might be possible to say which one is more likely to have a relationship to the Aug 10th transit chart and with Bush's chart, if any. I'm not certain that this moment is related to the other current discussion threads in this forum, although, it certainly occurred to me as one possibility.

This chart suggests some kind of a separation, the possibility of an emotional fight for something, but precisely what I don't know. It could represent a fight over one of his "plans" for citizens. Restriction (Saturn) is coming from the outside at this point of Bush's natal. This is a point for him that has to do with something new or transformative (Pluto) happening quickly (Uranus), with the subconscious (Moon), or a female involved somehow, it's likely rebellious in manifestation.

With the focus of all those planets on the 49th harmonic wave right on top of this point, the Sun which sometimes represents the conscious coupled with the Moon (sub-conscious), Mercury (Intellect and logic--although the alignment is slightly off), and Saturn, I feel this is a time to watch carefully what happens. There's the possibility of a separation or ending of some sort, but it's just a possibility.

I mainly threw it up here for the timing issue, because even though I didn't participate in the other discussion, I was aware of it, and I discovered Bush's 49th harmonic Moon/Uranus/Pluto just today. It seemed synchronous, somehow.

[lavenderdiva]

8. all I can say is, 'Come on Wednesday'!

I can't wait to see what happens!! :hi:

[emcguffie]

9. I just found this.

There's a lot there. I have to go home and think about it.

I have a friend who -- if I remember correctly -- has all his planets in a couple of signs, and I often wonder about him -- if that causes him to be cut off, maybe sometimes confused, or -- just in his own little world, although he is an activist type.

Out of touch in a way.

I haven't looked at his chart in a very long time.

In fact, when we changed computers a few years ago, I lost everything. That's one reason I have kind of let it all go.

But Hitler's chart stuck in my mind because of that bucket thing. I vaguely remember Liz Greene (I think it was Liz Greene) talking about that singleton planet out there, being either a focus point, or having to take a lot of pressure.

I wish my memory were better.

I think van Gogh too had something like that. Taurus. I think. And it is difficult.

Sorry I'm blabbering like an idiot, I'm getting ready to go home, and saw your reply. Felt bad I hadn't seen it before.

I also have a question: remember the post somewhere about a woman in B's circle, who knew something, was a good woman, was in torment? And we were wondering who she was, and I thought maybe it was Karen Hughes, and she knew the election had been stolen.

I have been hunting for that, and I cannot find it. Although I did once upon a time find it.

I feel like I"m caught betwixt and between, waiting for the other shoe to drop.