"Are there dangers in being 'spiritual but not religious'?"

[I Have A Dream]

"I'm spiritual but not religious."

It's a trendy phrase people often use to describe their belief that they don't need organized religion to live a life of faith.

But for Jesuit priest James Martin, the phrase also hints at something else: selfishness.

"Being spiritual but not religious can lead to complacency and self-centeredness," says Martin, an editor at America, a national Catholic magazine based in New York City. "If it's just you and God in your room, and a religious community makes no demands on you, why help the poor?"

Religious debates erupt over everything from doctrine to fashion. Martin has jumped into a running debate over the "I'm spiritual but not religious" phrase.

(continued at link below)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/personal/06/03/spiritual.but.not.religious/index.html?hpt=C2

[Kookaburra]

1. Interesting that Father James thinks

the only reason people behave altruistically is because they were told to do that by the church. Does he really have that little faith in people?

[Celebration]

2. Hmmm

Sure the phrase can lead to complacency and self-centeredness.

It can also lead to just the opposite.

And church membership can't also lead to complacency and self-centeredness??? Of course it can.

And, it can lead to just the opposite.

Honestly, this "debate" is all about power. Do we have our own power? Or is it filtered through a heirarchy? It is also about community as well. Some people thrive in a religious community. Others say "What in the heck am I doing here?" Most of my life I have been part of a religious community............I started "What in the heck am I doing here?" at a very early age.

:rofl:

Live, let live. Pretty simple, really.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. Yes, institutions take your power away from you.

You are so correct.

We can use our own power to form our own spirituality. As in sitting in nature and grooving on a flower, for example.

They're just scared of losing control and $$$$.

If that priest thinks people only do good things out of fear of going to hell, he has a lot to learn.

[MagickMuffin]

3. 'Spiritual but not religious' becoming more common self-identification

And here is an excellent rebuttal to the priest. Note: I haven't read CNN's article yet, but from what you posted I will read it later, but wanted to counter balance the above quote from the priest. I believe the churches are upset that they could be losing revenue.

In Austin and across nation, younger believers are blending religious faiths and practices.

Laura Rios grew up Catholic, dancing in honor of the Virgin of Guadalupe, patroness of the Americas and a symbol of Mexican identity.

Now, at 32, dancing is still her main expression of the sacred in her life, though now she does it to honor her ancestors.

Rios' Aztec dancing is part of her spiritual life, like the ritual tattoos she has on her arms and the poems she reads by the Sufi mystic Rumi. She's one of an estimated 30 percent of Americans who refer to themselves as "spiritual, not religious" according to a 2009 Newsweek poll — up from 24 percent in 2005. A Gallup Poll released in May showed that now 16 percent of Americans don't have a religious identity, which is up from about 2 percent in 1968.

As most mainline Protestant churches have continued to report membership declines because of what the Rev. Eileen W. Lindner, editor of the annual Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, has called "an increasing secularization of American postmodern society," there has been increasing attention on what it means to have a spiritual life outside of a church, mosque or synagogue.

Recently released research focusing on millennials, people between the ages of 19 and 30, shows that they are increasingly likely to move away from the faiths they grew up in and blend multiple faiths and spiritual practices as they go through college.

Jason Steans, 37, says he grew up Protestant but as an adult found himself embracing a more general sense of spirituality based on the belief that "spirituality involves defining ourselves through the acts performed throughout our lifetime. We aren't just physical bodies — we are the total sum of the effect that we have on the world." For Steans, that effect can happen without the influence of church.

"Churches have been notoriously irrelevant for the last 30 years," said Will Davis Jr., 48, who leads the nondenominational church Austin Christian Fellowship, which has about 1,900 members. "As a leader of the church, I've got to own that, though it's starting to change."

Davis said church infighting and many churches' focus on new buildings instead of consistent community outreach through service have moved Americans away from church. The Rev. Bobbi Kaye Jones, superintendent for the Austin District of the United Methodist Church, said there's a long list of reasons people have been leaving mainline churches.

"People are disillusioned with organized religion, for one," Jones said. "Our society is such that people take the question, 'What does this do for me?' to everything, but the perspective for previous generations was, 'What can I bring to this organization?'"

She said that young people, in particular, want "to be active, they want to be contributing, and they want to be connected. Their churches can do all of that, if they will."

At Austin Christian Fellowship, for instance, Davis said membership has been helped by the staff's efforts there to engage in more social justice initiatives such as Mobile Loaves and Fishes and other volunteer work.

That type of work is particularly important in a place such as Austin, he said, a city where people love the outdoors and can find their spirituality on the hike-and-bike trail.

On her patio, Valerie Hutzler, 53, of Pflugerville found a different connection to God from the one she found when she was raised in Catholicism, she said.

"I didn't think of or really believe in God for decades until one of my sons joined the Marine Corps," she said. Looking up at the stars from her patio, she said, she asked God to look out for her son. The sense of comfort she got from that simple request, surrounded by the beauty of nature, eventually sold her on the idea of developing a unique spirituality, she said.

"Awakening that relationship with God on my end opened me up to a lot of personal gifts," Hutzler said. "No amount of education can buy you that."


More @ link:

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/spiritual-but-not-religious-becoming-more-common-self-719642.html?printArticle=y

I don't consider my posting so much of the article "breaking the 4 paragraph rules" since most of the "paragraphs" are only one sentence.


:hi:

[kentauros]

4. That's the way I've been almost all my life!

Spiritual, but not religious. And yet I still do altruistic things. This appears to be another example of only the Church and its flock being able to act morally. Where do they get these ideas? Don't they realize that anything "can lead to complacency and self-centeredness"?

I've learned more about religion and spiritual thought, all kinds, than I ever would had I stayed in the Episcopal church. It appears that to this guy and his ilk, that would also be a "bad" thing...

[get the red out]

5. I read this assumption before

I think it is being recycled because religious institutions are scared of loosing power and money. "Selfishness" means that the control organizations want my $$$$$$$, so anytime they don't get someone's money, that person is SELFISH.

I also agree that if a person has to live in fear handed down by the Priest class to be decent, they just weren't worth much as human beings to begin with.

The arguments against people like me are "selfish". To be honest, if I wanted to support the Republican Party and their corporate cronies I would just donate to those two entities and cut out the religious middle-man hand in the middle wanting to be greased (if I wanted to donate to the Catholic Church I might as well just write a check to the "man-boy love association"). I refuse to pay the "pardoner" because I believe in spirit, who doesn't want my money in exchange for sparing my soul. If I don't believe in their drivel, I can't make myself believe it in order to please them.

I know I am harsh, but I can't be dishonest and not say what I feel concerning this. This article is just another attempt to extend their fear based power structure and draw people who have found freedom back into subjugation. They are sending the dogs after the escaped slaves, but their dogs have gone toothless with age.

[Kind of Blue]

6. Wow, what an incredible statement.

And ironic, too. Because it goes straight back to the Reformation and the actual protest that defines Protestantism, that believed practices of the Catholic Church cut people from a direct relationship with God or divinity because of the demands of the religious community.

The very idea Christ brought was a personal relationship with God, God as Father - "God and you in a room" and not attaining it through dogma.

It seems to me that the priest is saying let's get back to the good old days of the demands of the church, including the crazy sale of indulgences :rofl: We have a whole history that shows leaving spirituality out of the equation leads to horrors, countless loss of life - and, oh, yeah pedophile priests - no selfishness there.

He needs to get back to his Bible and stop casting stones and take the beam out of his eye.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. People are more apt to kill over religion than spirituality.

[JanusAscending]

14. Oh my dear brother.....

we are so in tune on that one! Especially after my experience a few weeks ago that I posted about! Revisiting my former Church affiliation, and expecting that perhaps things had changed for the better!! HA! What could I have been thinking!!:evilfrown: I'll commune with the Almighty right here in my swivel desk chair, thank you very much! Selfish??? I don't think so. I'd prefer to hand a few bucks to someone in need on the street if the Spirit moves me.

[mysticalchick]

9. Yes, all about control and ...

... needing an intermediary between you and Mother/Father/Creator God because telling you that keeps you beholden to the Church.

Although raised Catholic, I fell away from it early but accompanied my cousin several years ago in classes to learn more about the religion. (Hey, I'm nice like that!) I remember the priest saying that "the only place where you can come to talk with God was in the Tabernacle" and I could almost literally hear a CLANG sound in my head. (Like if you thunked a pot with a metal spoon - I often get that sound when something REALLY doesn't resonate with me.) I thought "that is SO not true ...."

I really think it's all about what fits *for you*. The aforementioned cousin is steadfast in her Catholic faith and it's given her a lot of comfort. We each travel the path that brings us peace. Mine is a less traveled road but it's all mine! :)

[conscious evolution]

10. Religion is for those afraid of hell

Spirituality is for those who have been there.

In my case,hell was a place called church.

[ricochetastroman]

11. You got that right

A place to find out how much you lack and all about your original sin that you sinned and didn't even know about it. Thank goodness it is dying off. :hi:

[Fire Walk With Me]

12. Yeah, watching the major religions throughout this time of change shall make for interesting viewing

:popcorn:

[get the red out]

13. I love that saying

My LIFE is that saying!!!!

:D

[MorningGlow]

15. Smells like somebody's afraid of losing his job

Formal religion's passing is a good thing; I think it's a sign of our evolution. We are "growing up" as we evolve--more and more of us are able to think for ourselves and police ourselves instead of being dependent on a patriarchy to tell us what to think and how to behave.

Times change--and thank goodness. :)

[Oak2004]

16. There is still a place for church, but the churches do not fill it

The great virtue of religion is in its community, and the resource of the collective experience, knowledge, and caring of its members. There will always be a place for religion-as-in-spiritual community. I wish that I had such a religion.

But here's the catch: religion today, for the most part, is not serving that need. Instead it serves the end of dogma control, of enforcing conformity to ancient cultural norms that have been long ago rejected in the course of human progress, of massaging the egos and wallets of its leadership (not to mention the occasional other sort of "massage" procured by church leaders which come to light in scandals from time to time).

Religion? I'm all in favor of it. If, of course, I could find one doing something useful.

I think "spiritual but not religious" is not a trend, or a fashion. I think it's a phase. At some point, us spiritual but not religious people will coalesce into new communities which serve us better, and new religions, perhaps even a new way of seeing religion itself, will be born. Father Martin, then, if he's still around, will find himself criticizing people for daring to join together in churches, even as he makes his living preaching to a handful of elderly people sitting in mostly empty buildings on Sunday.

[get the red out]

17. Excellent post!

I agree completely. Community is what we all crave, dogma is destructive.

It's why our country's real progress has come to a screeching halt IMO. The dogma provided a way for the those who support corporate power and profit over human beings to make the Churches their "base". It is more important to demonize gay people and deny women's right to choose than to provide jobs and a clean environment or to think of the future enough to get off fossil fuels.

We want community desperately as humans, it is a part of our species, and hateful powers have used that trait against us in order to do great harm on this world simply out of greed.

[I Have A Dream]

18. GTRO, you really should have a blog!

:applause:

[get the red out]

21. Thank you

You made my morning.

:hi:

[Cleita]

32. I think you can accomplish the same by forming communes and collectives with

common goals. You don't need a Church with some vengeful God hovering over you as you try to fit into their perception of what good and evil is.

[Dora]

19. Not nearly as many as being religious without being spiritual.

That, I believe, puts "believers" at far more risk of complacency and self-centeredness.

[I Have A Dream]

22. Dora, I think that what you say is exactly the point for me personally.

I have no problem whatsoever with religion as long as there is also true spirituality involved. However, when someone is "religious without being spiritual", it's all fear-based rather than love-based. It is humanity-ruled rather than spirit-ruled.

In my opinion, the essential part of the formula is spirituality rather than religion. If religion being thrown into the mix adds to a person's spiritual experience, that's a personal preference along the lines of preferring chocolate or white cake. The cake itself though is spirituality.

[Dora]

33. I like cake.

:hi:

[NuttyFluffers]

20. a Jesuit knows better than to make such a facile argument...

perhaps every copy of the Gospel should come highlighted with the particular words of Jesus, just in case someone forgets the whole point of Christianity. pray in silence, for only recognition of public prayer awaits those who pray loudly in public. complacency and self-centeredness is just as alive and well in a church, thank you very much; i and many others have witnessed it for ourselves, father.

[Celebration]

23. Agreed

Jesuits especially.........for they aren't they known for using rational thought? One daughter of mine went to a Jesuit university (due to a high school boyfriend going there, LOL), and I have to say that this particular Jesuit university was great. I think they exempted her and the few other Protestants there from mass, etc. One thing that she took home from that education was a strongly negative attitude towards the death penalty. They must have woven that into every course that she took. Uh, their anti-abortion ideas didn't take with her, nor was it talked about nearly as much as the death penalty.

Honestly, I never knew much about the Jesuits, but I think my daughter found her four years there to be a great experience. But I guess that there are irrational Jesuits, just as there are irrational people of all stripes.

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. I have seen at least one edition of the Bible which has Christ's words in red.

Very useful!

[rumpel]

24. Very interesting. There is nothing that I can think of that equates

spirituality with selfishness. How can you be spiritual without understanding the interconnectedness of all, or at least the love for others?
Part of spirituality is to work on ourselves in order not harm but be of service to others - at least that is the Buddhist philosophy. Simple fact, when you are not happy you spread negativity around.

Organized religion has been about control and power over the people through fear, and I can bet you that the original teachings of the enlightened ones never intended that. There are way too many illogical principles, I am glad more and more people do not follow it anymore.

It seems to me it is again, one of the "old" systems grasping for their vanishing control


btw. interesting definition from dictionary (see #4):


spir·it·u·al·i·ty
   /ˌspɪrɪtʃuˈælɪti/ Show Spelled Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
the quality or fact of being spiritual.
2.
incorporeal or immaterial nature.
3.
predominantly spiritual character as shown in thought, life, etc.; spiritual tendency or tone.
4.
Often, spiritualities. property or revenue of the church or of an ecclesiastic in his or her official capacity.

[WhiteTara]

25. spewed from the mouths of the pedophilia cult

I haven't cared for the Catholic Church since the Inquisition. I read an article just the other day that Michaelangelo painted his view of communication with God/dess in the Sistine Chapel
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-douglas-fields/michelangelos-secret-mess_b_586531.html

long article and then the closing paragraphs
If the hidden figures are intentional, what do they mean? The authors resist speculation, but a great artist does not merely reproduce an object in a work of art, he or she evokes meaning through symbolism. Is Separation of Light from Darkness an artistic comment on the enduring clash between science and religion? Recall that this was the age when the monk Copernicus was denounced by the Church for theorizing that the earth rotated around the sun. It was a period of struggle between scientific observation and the authority of the Church, and a time of intense conflict between Protestants and Catholics.

It is no secret that Michelangelo's relationship with the Catholic Church became strained. The artist was a simple man, but he grew to detest the opulence and corruption of the Church. In two places in the masterpiece, Michelangelo left self portraits -- both of them depicting himself in torture. He gave his own face to Saint Bartholomew's body martyred by being skinned alive, and to the severed head of Holofernes, who was seduced and beheaded by Judith.

Michelangelo was a devout person, but later in life he developed a belief in Spiritualism, for which he was condemned by Pope Paul IV. The fundamental tenet of Spiritualism is that the path to God can be found not exclusively through the Church, but through direct communication with God. Pope Paul IV interpreted Michelangelo's Last Judgment, painted on the wall of the Sistine Chapel twenty years after completing the ceiling, as defaming the church by suggesting that Jesus and those around him communicated with God directly without need of Church. He suspended Michelangelo's pension and had fig leaves painted over the nudes in the fresco. According to the artist's wishes, Michelangelo's body is not buried on the grounds of the Vatican, but is instead interred in a tomb in Florence.

Perhaps the meaning in the Sistine Chapel is not of God giving intelligence to Adam, but rather that intelligence and observation -- and the bodily organ that makes them possible -- lead, without the necessity of Church, directly to God. The material is rich for speculation and the new findings will doubtlessly spark endless interpretation. We may never know the truth, but in Separation of Light from Darkness, Michelangelo's masterpiece combines the worlds of art, religion, science, and faith in a provocative and awe inspiring work of art, which may also be a mirror.

[southerncrone]

27. The real danger is being religous, but not spiritual.

[mother earth]

28. Spirituality means more than man made religion...it means that belief

is wider than any religion can encompass.

[japple]

29. There's a parallel discussion going on in GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8494237

[kentauros]

30. Also in R/T

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x249127

Although there, most of the atheists have the run of things for the most part and seem to think this spells the demise of religion everywhere. They'd be wrong, but it's difficult to tell them that in such a way that they accept their error ;)

I see this as more about strengthening spiritual belief, a deepening of the spiritual heart.

The etymology of the words "religion", "spiritual" and "spirit" reveal even more about this topic:

religion
c.1200, "state of life bound by monastic vows," also "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power," from Anglo-Fr. religiun (11c.), from O.Fr. religion "religious community," from L. religionem (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods," in L.L. "monastic life" (5c.); according to Cicero, derived from relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read" (see lecture). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods." Another possible origin is religiens "careful," opposite of negligens. Meaning "particular system of faith" is recorded from c.1300.

"To hold, therefore, that there is no difference in matters of religion between forms that are unlike each other, and even contrary to each other, most clearly leads in the end to the rejection of all religion in both theory and practice. And this is the same thing as atheism, however it may differ from it in name." {Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei, 1885}

Modern sense of "recognition of, obedience to, and worship of a higher, unseen power" is from 1530s. Religious is first recorded early 13c. Transferred sense of "scrupulous, exact" is recorded from 1590s.

spiritual (adj.)
"of or concerning the spirit" (especially in religious aspects), c.1300, from O.Fr. spirituel (12c.), from L. spiritualis, from spiritus "of breathing, of the spirit" (see spirit (n.)). Meaning "of or concerning the church" is attested from mid-14c. The noun sense of "African-American religious song" first recorded 1866. Spirituality (early 15c.) is from M.Fr. spiritualite, from L.L. spiritualitatem (nom. spiritualitas), from L. spiritualis). An earlier form was spiritualty (late 14c.).

spirit (n.)
c.1250, "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from O.Fr. espirit, from L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath," related to spirare "to breathe," from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cf. O.C.S. pisto "to play on the flute"). Original usage in Eng. mainly from passages in Vulgate, where the L. word translates Gk. pneuma and Heb. ruah. Distinction between "soul" and "spirit" (as "seat of emotions") became current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus) but "is without significance for earlier periods" . L. spiritus, usually in classical L. "breath," replaces animus in the sense "spirit" in the imperial period and appears in Christian writings as the usual equivalent of Gk. pneuma. Meaning "supernatural being" is attested from c.1300 (see ghost); that of "essential principle of something" (in a non-theological sense, e.g. Spirit of St. Louis) is attested from 1690, common after 1800. Plural form spirits "volatile substance" is an alchemical idea, first attested 1610; sense narrowed to "strong alcoholic liquor" by 1678. This also is the sense in spirit level (1768).

:D

[Cleita]

31. I think religions are created by humans and that they are businesses.

I find nothing spiritual about these organizations and I have lived in convents with nuns while going to school so I have had plenty of interaction with Church people, at least Catholics. But my observations have shown me that other religions aren't much more spiritual either. So it seems that spirituality is very personal and can't be found in a church, temple or other religious building with priests, pastors or other types of spiritual leaders. It's just something that is in each individual who interacts with the spirit world and higher beings like angels on a one to one basis. As far as helping the poor, I believe getting the government to enact social programs that provide the safety nets people need to have a quality of life goes a lot further than any charities formed by church groups. Other countries have proved that these programs are far more effective than hit or miss charities who might tie string to their alms giving as well.