So I had a vision of Hell. Maybe this is a little too out there for

[Cleita]

even this forum, so please try to understand what I'm thinking.

No, it wasn't scary. I was sort of meditating on the after life, something I have been thinking a lot about since my husband died. I don't believe in the Hell of the Christians, but I am also concerned that horrid people like Hitler, Saddam, or our Bush could waltz into paradise unscathed to enjoy heaven so to speak.

Then it came to me. When they die, they have to come face to face with all the people they killed and made to suffer. They will have to admit everything that they did and feel everything that they did to those they wronged. They are going to have to beg for their forgiveness and figure out how to make amends in a future life.

They will be haunted by this and won't be able to ignore what they did until thier vile acts are purged from their souls by the very souls that they wronged. It makes more sense to me than a loving spiritual father and mother condemning them to eternal damnation.

They won't get away with their acts, but they will have to answer for their deeds and make reparations until the last debt is paid. Then maybe they will be able to enjoy Paradise.

I tried to get some figures for Bush's offenses, not easy but this is what I came up with:

WTC 9/11 – 2,739 killed through negligence.
Iraq war, 2,974 of our military, 239 coalition forces killed in war zone.
Iraq war civilians, 655,000 killed in war zone and 568 non-Iraqi civilians
Afghanistan war 261military killed war zone
Afghanistan war civilians killed war zone (no reliable figures available)
Hurricane Katrina, 1,577 killed through negligence

Grand total: 663,358

Of course these figures are nothing more than educated guesses, but look how close the count comes to 666,000. I thought I would throw that in for fun as I don't believe anyone knows what the author of Revelation was trying to reveal.

[mother earth]

1. So sorry, Cleita, I did not know that you recently lost your husband.

:hug: My deepest sympathy goes out to you.

I believe that we judge ourselves. We are truly more harsh on ourselves than anyone could ever be. Magnify this by the shame of those deeds, the lives lost...I do believe we feel all emotions, good or bad, that we have dealt out to others when our lives are played out. Treat others as you would have them treat you...it is wisdom that we don't give nearly enough attention.

[Cleita]

2. I lost DH almost two years ago, but thanks for the sympathy

because there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think of him.

About Bush though. If I am right about this, when he dies he will have to face up to Casey Sheehan. He won't be able to have him removed from his presence like he did his mother Cindy at the state of the union speech. He won't be able to run away when he questions him about how he treated the families of the slain soldiers at Camp Casey. He won't be able to hide when he is confronted by Carla Fae.

He will have to meet all these people whom he caused to die for no good reason and he won't be able to hide from them, get drunk to forget or pop pills. They will all be there waiting for him.

[Matariki]

3. i think - not only will he meet them - he will *be* them

[cassiepriam]

4. Yes there is a hell, but it is one of our own making.

And we will have to face all the bad we have done.

And yes repugs will have to feel the pain they have inflicted
upon others. Not just the deaths, but all the injuries, heartache
and pain. Including how they have divided America for political
gain and all the hate and fear they have created.

[davsand]

5. We have to forgive ourselves, too.

Consider the idea that at soul level we probably do know what is right and wrong. If we create our own "hell" then redemption comes, in part, when we are able to forgive ourselves for our own failings.

In some ways, personal acceptance/ownership of our failings runs thru many of the religions--including Christianity. (Consider the passage of the Lord's Prayer "...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." as just one example.)

To me, "hell" is a self created thing, and we can choose to be there for as long as we need to--so we have time to come to grips with our own impact on the world. We can also work to learn self acceptance of our failings and the art of walking lightly on both the earth and every soul in it. It is, as always, our own choice.

I have an awful time getting my head around the idea of forgiving myself for the level of death and sadness that you describe in your post. I simply cannot imagine carrying that burden on my soul, nor can I comfortably contemplate what that will be like for any soul who does face that.

I feel both sorrow and pity for him.


Laura

[Why Syzygy]

9. I do.

Even though I never voted for either of the Bush wars, I feel a responsibility.

My feelings and beliefs are validated in ways I cannot share here.

I have long said, that if there is a hell? and it is worse than this? then I just do not want to be a part of 'heaven'. Who can rest and enjoy clouds of epiphany when 3/4 of the world lies in fear, terror and unimaginable violence? Who? I do not want to hang with those people. I'm down here, down and dirty, with the sufferers. We get through. If some pie in the sky thinks to punish further, I do not want to know that person.

There is company on the Path. I have no tolerance for the justi-fic-cationers. Vacation! Please.

[MissWaverly]

6. What I dreamed after my Dad died

I dreamed that God is love and that Heaven, you are constantly able to feel his love because
the sunshine is his love and just like the sun is everywhere so is his love, but if you are
bad then you don't have any connection to this, it's like you can see the beauty but you're really not able to be part of it, instead you are connected to what mattered to you in
life, anger, selfishness, pride and unless you can move past those things then you just
stay there while everyone else gets to move on and be happy.

[BlueIris]

7. ...

Not really relevant to the important parts of your post, but: Bush has been directly responsible for so many more deaths than that. No offense, but you're using the barest "known" minimums there, taken from the "official" (read: neo-con's) scorecard. Take comfort in the fact that Bush's actions have probably killed well over five million people, and that's before we ever touch the number of folks who will die in the coming decades as the direct result of Bush's destruction of much of our civilization. How long do you think it takes to make amends for the deaths of millions, especially in the timeless Other world? It's hard for me to imagine that a soul like Bush's ever gets to enjoy the afterlife.

[Cleita]

8. I totally agree BlueIris that his body count is much, much higher.

I was just posting what is official and verifiable to be cautious. There was a statistic about Taliban that were killed in Afghanistan, but you and I know that Taliban could be civilians as well. Also, some estimates can't be verified by death certificates and other official documents.

One of the reasons we were able to document Nazi atrocities so well is because the Germans were meticulous record keepers. Since our homegrown Nazis keep terrible records we may never know the true body count, however, the Universe will know and they won't be able to cover up or run away from their deeds then.

[Why Syzygy]

10. Demon he is.

But he gets the same chance. Universal. IMO there are not enough lifetimes for him to redeem himself.

I cannot imagine the otherworld. But I believe for damn sure that he won't stand a chance. It is pure. The fire will engulf him. So many misunderstand the meaning of fire. It is to purge. Find real gold. He might yield way less than one carat of purity. Leave it to the fire.

[peacetalksforall]

11. Add a couple to that for the TX Death Penalty. Add xx number

for all the suicides of returning soldiers. Add xx number to that for all the deaths from depleted uranium contamination both here and in Iraq. Add xx number to that for all the deformed babies coming from these soldiers who may not make it through a normal length life (they also won't make it through a normal life with no fingers or arms or what ever happends as a result of chemical gene damage. Add xx number of people who will have lost their mind or who wonder the streets - virtually non-life in contrast to what their parents hoped for.

The worst President in our history.