Seeking opinions on the book of revelation.

[Fire Walk With Me]

Is it negatively sourced or positively? Is the negativity presented therein a genuine warning or simply negativity with the intention of creating fear?

Is "666" the mark of the beast or is it negativity's way of dividing us against what is truly positive? This is my biggest question. Thanks for any insight.

[I Have A Dream]

1. I personally don't believe anything in Revelations.

I grew up Christian and have since rejected it, for the most part, although I totally respect Jesus. However, I feel that the Book of Revelations and Paul's teachings are fear-based, and I feel that Jesus' teachings are loved-based.

I was freed when I gave myself permission to follow my inner voice rather than living in fear. Until then, I was a prisoner. I was religious rather than spiritual. I awakened to everything that I was supposed to be when I rejected the fear-based teachings of Christianity. I think that religion tries to control humanity and spirituality tries to free humanity.

I don't think that there's any special significance to 666, at least not in reference to the Antichrist.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. My inner authority says that it's questionable, but one utterly negative tradition rejected it

so I'm torn as to its true nature.

Thanks for the good advice; not listening to my inner authority has been the source of much trouble in my life. I'll give it a shot. I hope that you and yours are having a great night.

[Popol Vuh]

13. Nice post I Have A Dream

I pretty much feel the same way about Christianity as you do but with a few differences.

They would be: Christianity represents to me the institution that purposely wrecked my ancient culture: I believe Jesus Christ is a metaphor, an anthropomorphism of stellar observation concerning winter solstice: And this last one usually kind of shocks people, but after a lot of history research (to include close reading from the Bible itself) I have come to the conclusion that Satan may not be all the bad guy he's made out to be. It seems to me that what he "originally" represents is the duality of Jesus, the Yang in Yin & Yang. It appears to me that he represents the night that cometh and Jesus represents the day "I am the way and the "light". In genesis it appears that Satan isn't trying to lead Eve astray, but rather, trying to set her free. Free from confining one's self to dogmatic servitude. Which is why the church teaches he's evil, because, the church can't very well remain a rich institution if everybody believes in spiritual freedom.

Anyway, good post I Have A Dream...And good thread Peake.

:hi:



Peace..

[I Have A Dream]

19. I have ambivalent feelings about Jesus, Popol.

I truly believe that what he symbolizes is love-based. Whether there really was a person named Jesus who did everything described in the New Testament (and more), I don't know. It's weird because it really doesn't matter to me whether this person really existed, although I am more inclined to say that he did exist than to say that he didn't. (Admittedly because that was my reality during my youth.) However, bottom line, whether or not he actually existed doesn't change my belief system at all since it's not based on Christianity.

One of the best lessons that I was ever given was being involved in the conservative Evangelical Christian group Campus Crusade for Christ while I was a freshman in college. That experience allows me to feel true compassion for the people who are afraid to use their own minds. They're told that the devil will use your mind to trick you. They're also told that they can't trust their hearts, because the devil can influence that also. They can't trust their minds; they can't trust their hearts. Who or what can they trust? Well, of course, what it says in the Bible and what the Church tells them. It is such a sick, sick type of mind control. (I don't think that all Christianity is that way, but conservative Christianity certainly is, in my opinion.)

In reference to Lucifer, I have contemplated that story as well, and I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter to me what the truth is in reference to that being. I don't think that it's so strange that you would feel that there might be more to the story about Lucifer than we've been told. I really don't work much in the shadow parts of life, so I don't feel the need to dwell on what the true story is in reference to him. I hope that he's not been given a "bum rap" though. (Sort of like Judas in reference to Jesus' story.)

I look forward to knowing "the rest of the story" once I cross over to the other side after my death.

:hi:

[Popol Vuh]

21. The message is more important.

Yes without a doubt the message is definitely more important than if the flesh and blood existed. And the message isn't a bad one for the most part. I mean that there are a few points in the New Testament that I still disagree with like for example the way woman are to be treated. But for the most part it delivers a good message.

I only wish more people thought as you I Have A Dream. Especially the so-called Christian conservative. I know that if a man called Jesus really did physically exist and came back today, he'd chew the Christian conservatives a new one for invoking his name with their unchristian hypocrisy. But oh well, their choices are theirs to make.

You bring up a rather intriguing point. The part about "people who are afraid to use their own minds. They're told that the devil will use your mind to trick you." I find this aspect (to create fear) of the Christian church to be quite interesting because of my experience with the nature of energy and the law of attraction. I wonder if the Church realizes that this fear teaching creates negative energy which attracts negative entities? I find it interesting that the Church (ignorantly or purposely) would increase the chance of its members to have encounters with negative entities.

I Have A Dream, I too look forward to knowing "the rest of the story" when its my time to pass on. I get this feeling that I probably will not incarnate into another body again - I'll probably remain in none physical form. To be honest, I am not very pleased with the majority of the so-called regular/normal folks to believe they'll ever change their greedy, vain ways, or their ways of killing each other and destroying the environment.


Anyway, its always good to see you I Have A Dream. Take care...

:hug:

[I Have A Dream]

23. I have quite a few issues with the New Testament, but those parts...

are not what Jesus taught. Given how Jesus' actions were described, I feel that he respected women as equal human beings. Paul was a different story. :eyes:

Thank you for your concern for the treatment of women, Popol. :)

[wickfordbard]

3. The book of revelation

is written in a traditional apocalyptic form. There's lots of books written like this one in the Jewish tradition. They're all like this. The form isn't Christian as much as Jewish. I can't remember everything about it, but you can check it out either online or in the Library.

While it seems very negative, it has a lot of astrological symbolism. And the 666 is numerology.

Someone had a vision and they put it into a traditional form. Supposedly it's about Nero and the roman empire. But if you look at it symbolically, and want to read it as 'a' story of the end of the age, take a look at the one chapter that no one else ever talks about.. Chapter 12;

And there appeared in the heavens a woman clothed with the Sun, standing on the Moon, crowned with stars. she 's in labor and gives birth to the Savior.

To me, that's an image of the rebirth of the goddess and the feminist movement in the 70s. Woman will bring in the new age. Instead of reading it as a fear based story, read it symbolically as a story of our times - the death aspect of a cycle which will lead to rebirth.

Wickfordbard

[Fire Walk With Me]

4. Interesting, thank you.

But does the 666 represent a name derived through numerology? Such as one with three words, each of six letters, and if so, does any translation outside of the original language matter?

[Dover]

6. some reading about the numer of the beast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

[crikkett]

10. good you cited that - I wanted to bring up the REAL no/beast

Wikipedia is the first place to look nowadays...

I wanted to mention the theory that the number of the beast is actually '616' as seen on a bit of scroll found a few decades ago at Oxyrhynchus, Egypt.

So '666' is all creepy but only because we made it that way.

[PinkTiger]

9. 666 symbolizes Nero. nt.

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Wikipedia mentions that as well. That certainly was an "end days", wasn't it?

Thanks!

[Why Syzygy]

24. If I'm not mistaken ..

"end days" is incorrectly translated. What it really said was "end of the age". It wasn't an end of Time. The Piscean age is/has been the age of Christianity. The Age of Aquarius will be something altogether different.

[Dover]

5. So interesting you are asking this question as I was just thinking about this.

Or rather it just came to me as I was writing something about the shift in consciousness that is upon us. I had never really thought about it before that, relative to this process.

In a nutshell -
Revelations is metaphorically about the 'unveiling' in esoteric terms, or the lifting of the veil to reveal not only our illusions but the true reality. The seven seals are the seven chakras or the steps of spiritual ascent through integration of body/mind/spirit, the process of spiritual death and the 2nd coming...a reunion of our soul with the Divine Light. The 4 horsemen are the 4 directions and/or four elements. This is also the story of the Tarot on the Fool's journey.

These are not the 'end times' so much as the end of time as we move from dualistic to non-dualistic consciousness.

[Stevepol]

8. I agree Dover. The best take on the book IMO is Edgar Cayce's I think.

He says, as do you, that the seven seals are the 7 chakras and this is John's own personal revelation of the spiritual forces unleashed by becoming conscious of these chakras and the memories and feelings nested or stored there.

Only the Christ consciousness (however you term it), which means universal love and understanding, can succeed in opening these seals and accessing the their messages for the individual. Cayce said the symbols and emotions described could be related as well to the glands associated with the chakras and even said that a person wanting to be a physician or healer would do well to study the book as a kind of symbolic manual for the way the mental plays on the different levels of the physical.

I heard a woman discussing her book at a book store recently (Mary Davis-Grant, Dream Power: Can Our Dreams Make Us Well). She says that as she practiced a kind of progressive relaxation in dealing with a chronic physical problem, she experienced powerful "waking dreams" which served to expedite her healing. She tried to relate her different dreams and symbols to the different chakras involved in the illness. I asked her if she had been asked by the director of her study (the book was a result of a doctoral study I think) to look into Revelations as a source of the same thing, but she didn't really understand my question and immediately took it as relating to some strange religious interpretation of the book. But I think what she underwent is probably very similar to what John experienced. Revelations was not a single night or day vision. It had to have taken place over many nights or days of visioning. I'm just surprised that more people don't see this. The symbols are naturally the ones that would be used by someone living at John's time and place.

[Dover]

16. Hmmm...yes Cayce's dreaming and this woman author's relaxation technique

both 'waking' dreams like John's in Revelations. And John's revelatory dream experiences also seemed similar to that which happened with Parmenides as interpreted by author Peter Kingsley.
This form of relaxation leading to these altered 'dream' states is an esoteric "technique" that accesses and connects us to the divine more easily. We become mediums, like clay in the hands of the Divine.
What Kingsley reveals (in his book, Reality, among his others)is that this was a VERY common practice back in those days, and a part of the mystery schools initiation/practices. It's a practice that the famous Greek and Roman philosophers (and the Egyptians, Chinese, Minoan, Native Americans, and other cultures used before them) partook in regularly and is probably responsible for much of the 'wisdom' they were able to convey. They would be the first to attribute it to the Divine Source with whom they communed in these altered states. Parmenides communicated these experiences in poetry, some like John wrote it outright...both being absolutely true to each detail without changing anything. When you are given a message from the Divine you don't alter it but only seek to be a medium through which it can be shared. Many artists, healers and great thinkers/activists of our time know this. Like Martin Luther King's dream, and many others.

AND it is available to us as well, if only we will invite it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. Oh! Like the Baghavad Ghita... I never would have considered that!

But there are five elements. The Space or Volume element, in which all things arise.

[Dover]

17. Are you referring to the 'ether'?

That is the 5th element, but we have not progressed to understanding it beyond theory just yet.
But soon. It's part of the new reality yet to be 'unveiled'.

THE ground is shifting under our feet. Fundamental properties of the Universe are changing, and physicists can't explain how or why. Now researchers say an as yet undiscovered fifth force could be behind these mysterious changes.
Physicists combine supposedly unchanging physical properties, such as the speed of light and an electron's charge, into a number called the "fine structure constant" that describes how our Universe hangs together. But in 1999, astronomers analysing 10-billion-year-old light from distant quasars got a shock when they found that it was different from what we'd expect to see today.
They concluded that the fine structure constant, or alpha, must have been different 10 billion years ago. If so, the host of fundamental values tied to alpha could be changing too: light may be slowing down, the electron's charge growing, and atomic nuclei losing mass.
If the Universe is four dimensional, then a fifth force is the only thing capable of triggering these changes, say Gia Dvali and Matias Zaldarriaga of New York University. The four fundamental forces known so far are gravity, electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces. But the new force would have a repelling effect, showing itself via tiny particles called "alpha ions" slowly emitted from protons and neutrons. As the repelling alpha ions were lost, atomic nuclei would lose mass, but atoms would become more strongly bound together.
The force would be incredibly weak,100,000 times fainter than gravity. But it would work over long ranges, meaning it could serve as the mysterious repulsive energy called quintessence, Latin for "fifth element", that some scientists say explains why the Universe is flying apart faster and faster.
"The possibility that you could find a that is both making the fine structure constant vary and causing the Universe to accelerate is extraordinarily exciting. It'd be a fantastic discovery," says theoretical physicist Sean Carroll of the Enrico Fermi Institute at the University of Chicago.
There are several theories to explain the variation in alpha, but they all require some kind of fifth force, says John Barrow of the University of Cambridge. "They would each have different consequences for observations very close to the surface of neutron stars." But Dvali and Zaldarriaga say there's an easier way to detect traces of alpha ions. They would be shed at different energies depending on a particle's mass, and that would make protons and neutrons fall at very slightly different speeds.
A satellite programme called STEP is already being planned to test the theory. Free-floating masses will be isolated in an ultra-high vacuum. If they fall at different rates, it would support the existence of alpha ions. Otherwise, we may have to look to higher dimensions for an answer. Dvali and Zaldarriaga say that without a fifth force, that's the only thing that could explain why alpha is changing. Charles Choi, New York More at: Physical Review Letters (vol 88, p 091303)
--New Scientist 2 March 2002


http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/antigrav.html

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/tourist7.html


Ether theories - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

===================================================================

Esoteric Christian tradition

According to the Esoteric Christian tradition, Essenian and later Rosicrucian, the next major step in human evolution will be entering and living in the Etheric region of the planet, through a major change which is expected to occur in the Earth's environment ("reserved unto fire") in a future, not identified, time: the "new heavens and a new earth", or the New Galilee.<7> It also teaches that, in order for the human being to be able to adapt to these new etheric conditions, it is necessary to develop a body, named Soul body (the correct translation of Paul of Tarsus' "soma psuchicon") or the "Wedding Garment" as taught in the Holy Scriptures, eg.:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, (...) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:" (Matthew 22:2,11 KJV)
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2)
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked." (2 Corinthians 5:1-3)
However, it also conceives that before entering New Galilee - as mankind walk forward to the understandings of universal brotherhood, during the next six centuries toward the Age of Aquarius - the spiritual sight will start developing allowing human beings to perceive the so-called "dead" living in the supraphysical planes.

Etheric Plane - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etheric_plane

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. No, that first bit is discussing dark matter, which may be a problem we'll have to face.

The second is misleading, at least in terms of what I've read. I've read that the etheric body is indeed formed by ourselves, but that it is a bridge between the mental, emotional, and physical bodies, bypassing the rational (physical) mind and making large leaps possible, as well as to process larger amounts of information at once. That it in itself is not a specific plane, but an addition to our existing bodies. I could be misunderstanding, and it is only based upon what I have read, not confirmed myself. I don't know what they mean regarding opening to new energy in relation to the etheric etc. as described in the terms that I have learned. The esoteric Christian description sounds like what I've learned in regard to consciousness of -this- self beyond death, continuity into the astral and beyond, via the formation of a new aspect of self, not neccessarily an entire realm in itself.

I'm not sure if the fifth element, space, is accounted for in the other realms, such as the astral, where everything is directly manipulable by the mental realm (quite akin to lucid dreaming!). And the Astral being little but a distraction on the way back to God...

I've read rather a bit but am not having any luck synthesizing these items. I'll give it some thought.

[Dover]

20. Oh okay. You are referring to the Tibetan Dzogghen 5 pure lights or elements

I thought you were contemplating Christianity and Revelations in particular.


Yes, all these spiritual practices and their language can get confusing and present a lot to sythesize and distinguish between if they remain abstactions without the benefit of experience.

I think the underlying truths are very simple though and are essentially saying much the same thing.
Personally I wouldn't worry my head about it. Things come in their own time and in their own way...and then only if they support the way.

[LaurenG]

7. Can you get your hands on a metaphysical bible?

Or at least a metaphysical dictionary?


I agree that all religion contains some of the same elements and so I delved deeply into the similarities for a while. It set me on a different course and now I'm of the mind that "God" really is in everything and means to harm no one. We have been given negative messages from MEN in order to keep us in check.

I haven't read this book (below) but at brief glance I thought it might be interesting.


http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~7290.aspx

For right thought, which is necessary to create constructively, it is necessary to rise above relative thought or we then create destructively. My conclusion was that regardless of what intent lay at the root of the orthodox leader’s and the Emperor’s thinking, the book (of Revelation)was not inspiration from Universal Being (God) but one that was created for the wrong reasons, delivering a message of fear and which created a destructive process. (Remind you of anyone in the White house?)

This is not an uncommon perspective of those who study the Bible without a fixed conception of it as the totality of inspiration. Burton L. Mack, in his book Who Wrote The New Testament? notes, "Compared with the book of Hebrews, where a similar set of social circumstances prevailed and the attitude of the author was similar with respect to keeping the faith, extending even to an exaggerated fascination with a cosmic image of sacrifice, John’s vision filled the universe with afflictions that no one would be able to survive except those who had ‘washed their robes--in the blood of the lamb’ (Rev. 7:14). And in comparison with Jewish apocalypses of the time, such as 4 Ezra and 2 Baruch, where the overriding mood is one of lament for an unimaginably great social loss, John’s revelation seems to delight in the gruesome for the sake of a personal advantage."

Mack goes on to say, "A search for the source of John’s imagery turns up a veritable hodgepodge of ancient Near Eastern myths. From verse to verse the historian’s mind, in search of parallels, ricochets among myths of creation, sea dragons, holy wars, royal births, Egyptian depictions of the afterlife, Isis of the heavens, Horus and Seth, the divine court, wisdom at the throne of God, the plagues of the exodus, angelic warriors, cosmic conflagrations, and so on. It does not help that, interspersed with the horrific, there are many examples of heightened and holy liturgical language reminiscent of the prayers and psalms of the pious.

After twenty-two chapters of blood-soiled linens, beds, and bodies, the concluding exhortation to the thirsty to ‘take the water of life as a gift’ is not very inviting."

[Fire Walk With Me]

12. Thank you, that is very interesting, and the Cayce as well.

I'll check those out further at some point...

[Matariki]

14. There is a lot of mismashed Qabala in it

for instance, the number 666 has a lot of solar connections via the qabalistic practice called gematria.

[Fire Walk With Me]

15. Thank you. They have to keep it oblique, don't they...

[FirstLight]

25. Numerologically, isn't 6 a "dead-end" ...?

I thought that the 6's were to symbolize a trinity of eternal non-growth... At least that has always been my take on it. 6 is a spiral going inward eternally, no growth. the 9 is an outard spiral, and is also a triple trinity. the 6 is like being ever-locked in the duality...

And while I am no biblical scholar, there are passages in Revelations that ring strangely true... the "whore of Babylon" could easily be paralelled to the US, and it's oil dependency. It's kinda narly to look at the metaphors... you know , every culture has its apocalypse stories...
Now could just as easily be seen as the age of Ragnarok, too..."an Axe age, a sword age..."

FWIW, I did the numerology of GWB on the night of the 2000 elections... and found that his names, birthplace and date ALL came out to 666. That was a really freaky thing to see.... and I am scared & sorry to see he has been such a harbinger of doom to us all in so many ways.

just my $ .02

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. Hi, that's something that I'd like to see if you are willing to share some.

Regarding Bush's info.

Wikipedia also mention something about six being an imperfect, and multiple sixes an exacerbation of such. I was also taught that negativity is inward-moving, constrictive, and that the positive is outward-moving, or expansive.

[FirstLight]

27. I'd have to re-research the info I used...

It was 8 yrs ago, I just remember I used the numerology of names, birthdate & place. I think he was born in TX? You know how to correspond the numbers to the alphabet...? And then add them down...

[Why Syzygy]

28. ACK!!

He was born in CONNECTICUT!!! Don't blame Texas.

No harm, no foul.

[FirstLight]

29. oops...see I told you it has been a while!

I guess that's why numerology is not an exact science...don't even know if I could replicate the same results? now I will have to try when I get the kids down and ee if I come up with the same numbers :)

[Why Syzygy]

30. Please do.

Meanwhile, I may post a few links for Peake.

I love numerology, but have always reduced to one number with the exceptions of 11 and 22.

The birth place is a common mis-perception which I step in to correct every chance I get!

[Silver Gaia]

31. Interesting that I should read this thread tonight...

I'm currently taking a grad-level course called Early Christian Literature (at my university). We are primarily going to be studying Gnostic and other texts not a part of the New Testament, but here at the start of the semester, we are studying a few actual Biblical texts for background reference. It just so happens that we will be discussing Revelation this coming Wednesday night. So... if there's anything that might be of interest I get from that discussion that wasn't already covered here, I'll come back and post it. This is, of course, going to be a "scholarly" discussion, but spiritual associations sometimes are discussed in the context of the class, too. Thanks for the read, anyhow! Lots of good ideas here for me to ruminate about in advance of the discussion. ;)

[hvn_nbr_2]

32. A couple things about Revelation

1. Very nearly everything that most people think they know about Revelation isn't true.

It's based on distorted and twisted interpretations that shred, shuffle, and mix together in thoroughly illogical sequence bits and pieces of Rev and various other Biblical parts, that have nothing to do with each other, in order to make them fit a preconceived scenario. Imagine if someone claimed that the Declaration of Independence said, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that mankind are disposed to suffer, evils are sufferable, and any form of government becomes destructive. Therefore, we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war." That's how badly they twist, distort, and shuffle Revelation. They make stuff up, completely ignore other things that are clearly there, and put together things that are completely unrelated.

2. It isn't a book of predictions.

The instruction that John gets to write the book makes it clear: "Write in a book the things that you have seen, the things that are, and the things that must happen after this." (Not very likely an exact quote from any version, but that's it essentially.) Rev is a book about past (the things that you have seen), present (the things that are, from John's point of view near the end of the first century C.E.), and the future (things that must happen after this).

When people claim that it's all about Rome or Nero or something similar, they're focusing their attention on the central part of the book and ignoring most of the rest. The central part of the book is so obviously about the Roman Empire that the fundies have to make up fantasies about a "revived" Roman Empire to get their made-up scenario to fit. But there's a lot there that's clearly about older history of Israel and about far into the epic past and future.

3. There's a lot of Greek influence.

The book was written in the Hellenic world, in Greek, for a Greek audience, so this is no surprise but nobody pays any attention to it. For example, there are a number of "compare and contrast" elements where John shows parallels between Greek religion and Christianity and other places where he's clearly saying, "Here is how Christianity is better than your Greek religion." There are gobs of little philosophical logic riddles and cryptic oracular sayings that invite you to find whatever you want to find, to interpret what he says according to your own preconceptions instead of according to what he actually said (just like the Greek story of King Croesus and the Oracle at Delphi). The Four Horsemen, at the beginning of the Rev story, seem to me to be obviously a Jewish-Christian answer to the Greeks' Pandora story of how all sorts of evil were unleashed on the world; the people who are watching for "approaching hoofbeats" of the Four Horsemen of war, famine, disease, and death have obviously not read a newspaper or history book in 5000+ years.

There's a lot more but that's all I have time for now. Somewhere in the archives of this group (which are currently unsearchable because of too heavy traffic), there are a couple other threads about Rev, including a couple where I posted some more details and personal theory about Rev that it really is a very organized and logical book with a very positive message.

[Fire Walk With Me]

33. Thank you!