DUers are ruining DU forums for me

[leftofthedial]

not really, but I couldn't resist.

The point of this forum was for it to be a place where we atheists could discuss issues without the faith-based noise that so often infiltrates and hijacks threads in other forums.

Our quandary is that when we believe that christian faith is the problem, or that christians are the problem, we are still constrained by DU rules not to call that parituclar spade a spade. Frankly, I think religion is a bad thing. I think the religious mindset is a big part of the problems our country faces today. But I also thinkwe are part of a community that includes religious people. I'm a good liberal. I feel strongly both ways. :-)

"Censorship" (in the loose sense, not the legal sense) is such a slippery slope. I don't envy Skinner or the mods a bit when it comes to allowing free discourse, but still enforcing DU's tolerance rules.

Any ideas how we progressives can discuss here at DU the ways in which religion is destroying our country and preventing the progress that gives us our name?

[YankeyMCC]

1. When religious

people talk about how "lack or loss of moral foundation" is destroying America the assumption is that this moral foundation must come from faith. Be it christian or muslim or whatever.

Part of what we have to do is make it clear there are other basis for a moral system.

I don't think I have an answer to your question but somehow we have to talk about how dogmatic belief in myths is ruining, or at least threatening, the moral foundation of the nation. Somehow show how when someone takes a myth contradicted by facts as absolute truth that it gets in the way of things like equality, freedom of speech and trade, tolerance, etc...

This certainly doesn't have to be an attack against the belief in god, or even some sorts of spirituality. This is just a personal opinion but I suspect many, perhaps most, atheists would not find it hard to get along with pagans and buddists. We do need to be clear about the problem - dogmatic and fundamentalist applications of religions that actively get in the way of progress.

[leftofthedial]

4. I agree we need clarity about the problem

It's almost like the perverse insistence on the truth of something that is contradicted by facts and reality (not to mention billions of other people's competing mythologies), rips a hole in the fabric of the truth and distorts our culture's ability to perceive reality and to behave rationally. It's like a plague with dementia as a symptom.

"dogmatic belief in myths" is a great phrase.

[fshrink]

2. Lol... I couldn't have resisted either...

On the issue, I'd go with you. As to the question, Yankee's suggestion amounts to including all faiths in a larger group, a group which now probably includes nearly 90% of the total population... Now, that would be calling out the entire country... Which wouldn't be fair either, since it must be crystal clear by now that Xians, not only are indeed responsible for our current political situation, but explicitly CLAIM to be. And, apparently, want more! So what are we supposed to do? Shut up because we're so good democrat? Go somewhere else? If we're talking about a technicality, and if you ak me, anything that does not acknowledge the above is one, then we might refer to Xians with some sort of a code, like "L" or something, so that there would be plausible deniability. In addition, this group has been open for about a month and, to my knowledge, no one ever came here to bait (the kind of stupid juicy bait that's so hard to resist). So where's the harm? I know where the good is.

[fshrink]

3. In addition!!!

I would like to remind folks that most, if not all of us, haven't been kicked out of GD or anywhere. We kicked ourselves out, showing a high degree of civility and restraint. We removed ourselves from a place obviously invaded and actively *worked* by believers. I myself posted a pissed-off termination post and went, with no return. I post on occasion on LBN and a little more now on the election 2004 group, but GD is gone. So I lose something, and others lose my possible contributions there. And now I need to further restrain my speech (which includes my reading of like-minded posters). Gotta take a walk outside now.

[leftofthedial]

5. It's a shame that fragmentation seems to be an inevitability

when what progressives need is all the unity we can get.

just reinforces what a powerful wedge issue religion is.

is there some sort of political ju jitsu we can use to turn it against the RW?

[PassingFair]

6. Personally, I have never been a "believer"

but on September 11, I became a full-fledged born-again atheist.
Religion crashed those planes into those towers.
I waited for Islam to denounce the action and the flaming rhetoric that called for jihad. Nothing.
Now our "crusade" kills many, many more.

[Beetwasher]

10. LOL! Self Exile! You Have More Self Control (Or Something) Than I Do!

I still like to mix it up w/ the believers in GD! But then again, I enjoy that sort of thing! Maybe I'm a masochist? :shrug:

Sometimes I'm surprised when my posts DON'T get deleted! I certainly try my best to skirt the line!

[fshrink]

14. I know...! How do you that is

a mystery to me. I would break things in my living room!

[Behind the Aegis]

7. I enjoy this group

I actually "voted" for the group's formation, but I do practice my own spiritual path and religion is very fascinating to me. Most of the posts I have seen here have been quite respectful and very thought-provoking. I also agree that the 'noise' created by some in the main lounges has made my blood pressure rise on occasion. But, I have also seen that some of that noise comes from atheists/agnostics as well. So, I have come to the conclusion that the real issue is not faith, but dogma. I remind myself that a "parachute works best when open, like one's mind" but, not to have too open an mind as to "let everything fall out." It is a fine line and I often will fall to one side or another, usually depending on topic and mood.

Any ideas how we progressives can discuss here at DU the ways in which religion is destroying our country and preventing the progress that gives us our name? I would suggest re framing arguments that show there is a difference between religion and spirituality. I would also say that not all 'religious' people are the problem (I know that was not suggested, just making a blanket statement). After all, if you believe that Jesus was real, he was a religious person and would be considered quite liberal by our own standards today, so one can just imagine how "liberal" he must have been then! I don't think religion, per se, is destroying our country (world), but fanaticism is! One last thought, try to remember that some of the people that post here don't seem to have the best reading comprehension skills...I have never seen so many pointless arguments about leaving out the word "some" or some other nonsense!

I really enjoy reading items here and hope the people that post here will also continue to post in the other rooms!

[BigMcLargehuge]

8. just try and remember that there is a difference between

being critical of Christianity and being critical of Christians... unfortunately, religion is such a big part of people's lives and personalities that separating the two in discussion is extremely difficult. Compounding the problem is that many Christians cannot separate themselves from the religion to effectively argue, so any negative statement about the religion is taken as a personal attack on the believer in that religion.

I realize that I am stating the obvious.

[disillusioned1]

9. I don't believe religion per se is destructive

Religion is the tool. Greed and power are the real problems, IMO.

[leftofthedial]

12. religious people clearly have been expoloited throughout history

to be subservient

to accept less than they deserve

to cede their freedom and their human rights to others

to fight and die in wars

to allow others to use them in any number of ways

at some point, one must blame those who have allowed themselves to be exploited for thousands of years.

[politicat]

11. I have a feeling it's a very small group, or even one or two people

who rather... stalk us.

I suppose if a bunch of us found that the same people were attacking us over and over, we could take it to the mods. I know of one person who does attack me consistently, even when the subject is not theistic. (And, it must be said, is usually wrong on objective, verifiable facts, which is just a wonderful feeling of sangfroid, you know? )

Pcat

[leftofthedial]

13. there are a handful of bible thumpers

in the GD and GD-P (self) righteousness patrol

[fshrink]

15. So why are the 300+ posts nearly always dealing with

religious, meta-, pata-, krypto-physical stuff? Why is this amazingly stupid stuff a best-seller? There must be more than a handful...

[Rhiannon12866]

16. I don't think that it's really religion that's the problem

But it's Bush*'s own particular brand of religion. As far as I know, all of our presidents have belonged to some sort of church, but this didn't cause problems for the country. Bill Clinton believes in God and attends church, but he never claimed that God was telling him to do certain things, like launching an unprovoked attack on another country!:grr:

Can you just imagine what would have happened if Clinton had ever done this?! Not only would he have been immediately and successfully impeached, but he would have been frog-marched out of The White House in a straitjacket!:crazy:

[luaneryder]

17. A proliferation of proselytizing

Seems since the election many threads are chock full of it. The preaching has become tiresome and has been personally offensive in some cases. I suppose staying out of GD is my alternative.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

18. i agree, religion is a bad thing, it starts as superstition and ends

as a political tool. yeah, we are all made of the same star stuff, and there is certainly a creative force and an interrelationship, a continuity in the universe, as is borne out by science, and especially quantum science, but this continuity and creative force is not personalized, nor does it require worship. There is nothing wrong with spirituality, if you can connect with what part of you is contiguous with everything else, but religion, as an organization, sucks.

[reprobate]

19. I see religion as the cause of most of Man's problems not the solution.

I refer to western religions mostly. The one thing they have in common is to remove responsibility from the individual, allowing people to place the blame on some grandfather in the sky. Not "the devil made me do it" but "god tole me to do it so it's not my fault" kind of thing.

I think that only when we universally accept the fact that only we, ourselves, are responsible for our actions and their consequences will the species have reached maturity.

Life will be far more pleasant then.