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Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Science & Skepticism » Atheists and Agnostics Group Donate to DU
 
Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:31 PM
Original message
Hello (long)
with a special thanks to alarcojon for greeting me at my fifth post and directing me here! I have been lurking for over a year, so I knew about this section, but thanks anyway!

I need to introduce myself, as I plan to be here awhile. I am not as erudite, thoughtful, and fair as Az. I am not as mercurial as beam me up scottie, and no, I am not Modem Butterfly under another name :( .

As for the biggie, yes I am a strong, or hard atheist. I know that bothers some (Hi Az :hi: ). The reason that I am has to do with the fact that I was a philosophy major in college. There I was quickly introduced to Descartes.

For those who are not familiar with his religious/philosophy work, he was the one who came up with "I think therefore I am." This came about as a result of a thought experiment in which he decided to see what could be known by thought alone. He noted that our senses can deceive us, eg. hallucinations, mirages, etc. So he posited a theoretical force (a demon) that has caused all of our senses to be lying (or unreliable ) to us. A modern equivalent would be like the Matrix, or a brain in a jar connected to a computer.

Given this situation of doubt, what can we, by brain power alone, KNOW is true? Descartes after some thought concluded that he existed, else what is doing the thinking? He then went on to make a bunch of bad conjectures (using circular reasoning), and "proved" all sorts of things. I agree with him, though, that we can concluded that the "I" doing the thinking exists, but what else?

After much thought, I concluded that time and space exist. "I" must exist SOMEWHERE (thus space), the concept of all of this thinking taking place in "frozen time" makes no sense to me. Thus time (over which I have memories and thinking) exists.

Nothing else can be PROVED, as far s I am concerned. All of my experiences could have been fed to me by the machines, just like Neo.
However, solipsism is not a viable (or even sane) alternative; no one actually lives like that is true (except possibly the insane). Therefore, I have to take the rest of the universe ON FAITH, or BELIEVE that it is (mostly) the way that it appears to be. That solids are more or less that way that they appear (I know, they are mostly empty space, but to our equally tenuous bodies objects "feel" and "look" solid). That other people do indeed exist, and are much like me in feelings and thoughts and reactions. There is no thought experiment that can PROVE this, so it must be taken ON FAITH, or as a given, at least as far as I am concerned.

Which brings me to my strong atheism. Given that I take EVERYTHING except myself, time, and space on faith as existing the way it appears, I am comfortable with strongly denying things that do not appear to be the case. it is up to others to prove that they exist. IF anything is (to my mind) patently absurd, the person advocating it must prove that I am wrong, otherwise I will POSITIVELY contend that it is not the case. In VERY RARE instances I might be wrong, but I am comfortable with that possibility.

FOR EXAMPLE: I POSITIVELY assert that there are no gods (as I see NO indications that there are) in the same way that I would POSITIVELY assert that there are no cats or dogs or (name an animal) living on the sun. Anyone who wants to PROVE me wrong can try to do so, but it is going to take some convincing. I am not wishy-washy or agnostic about the possibility of animals living on the sun, and I am similarly positive about the non-existence of gods.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welcome, SA!
Interesting take on things. In terms of a god being an all-encompassing, universal "spirit," I'm with you on strong atheism. Such a being is simply logically impossible as well as contrary to all evidence other than personal, subjective anecdote.

Hoping to see lots of posts from you!
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree with you.
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 06:11 PM by IMModerate
However, I think that atheism as you express it is still a second order of knowledge based on your Cartesian interpretation.

I have pretty much ruled out the existence of any god that humans could conceive but I don't generally assert it at the level of your "cogito." But your orientation seems sound to me.

Glad to have you around, even if you're not Modem Butterfly!

(On edit: This was intended for the OP.)

--IMM
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Thank you for the welcome! nt.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Help me here with the strong v. weak issue
I'm pretty sure I'm neither, but I'm interested in how you come to this conclusion? Let me explain my thinking. Once I determined I didn't believe in a god, I decided to drop the matter. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why I should waste my time giving the matter any further thought. The best word I can think of to describe my thinking is apathy.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I've come to the conclusion that the question "Is there a God?"
is not even a valid question. In order to have a debate about something there has to be some shred of evidence for a launching point.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Darwin said the question is simply beyond the capability of the human
brain (quoting loosely).
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hey, if you don't want to give
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 07:46 AM by Strong Atheist
the matter further thought, thats cool. We all react differently; thats why we are individuals. Basically, strong atheists positively assert that there are no gods/goddesses whatever. Weak atheists, as I understand it, do not believe in gods/goddesses, but do not say that they do not exist, to which I say :wtf: . This does not make sense to me, but the weak atheist will have long arguments about this topic and why their position makes logical sense, so do not even go there unless you want a long argument with them that is full of confusing hairsplitting terms. I am content to be more or less on the same page with them.

As for how I got to my beliefs, I think my OP said it all. Also see post #9. I do not see gods/goddesses as being something that is true, and thus positively assert that they are false. If I am ever proved wrong, I will admit it, but till then I KNOW that gods/goddesses DO NOT EXIST, just like I KNOW that Santa DOES nOT EXIST.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Specific v. Generic God
Specific God? Agree
Generic God? Kind of like generic beer. Remember generic beer? Ecch! If there is such a thing, I bet it tastes like shit.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Animals on the sun and god
Welcome, SA!

Animals living on the sun and some sort of god living somewhere don't not seem to me to be comparable. We can choose atheism/agnosticism based on the absence of evidence of the existence of a god. However, we have positive evidence that animals as we understand them could not possibly live on the sun, as we know (or at least it positively appears) that the sun is too hot a place for an animal to survive. It seems to me that the case against animals living on the sun is considerably strong than the case against the existence of a god.

Any thoughts?
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Sorry that I was not being
clear. My point was that since not much can be known (as far as I can tell) by thinking alone (I exist, time exists, space exists, and thats it), the rest of the universe has to be taken on faith (to me at least) as being more or less the way it seems, rather than a hallucination, or the product of a information fed to my senses ala The Matrix.

Given this, anything that seems to be inconsistent with the universe as I have come to know it TO THE POINT OF being ridiculous is something that I will positively reject out of hand. The list of things that are ridiculous on their face is infinite, such as Santa existing, or demons existing, or invisible dragons existing, or my example of cats on the sun (or on Mars, or Jupiter or ... etc., you see the point, the list is endless). I am not going to spend my time investigating and refuting every possible ridiculous thing; the list is infinite. If someone posits something that I think is impossible/ridiculous on its face, then it is up to them to PROVE it, which could be hard to impossible to do.

As a final thought, there is a flat earth society. Most of us KNOW that the Earth is more or less spherical, but these people deny that. They are asserting something ridiculous on its face, and I would positively assert that the Earth is not flat, and that it is their job to prove me wrong, not the other way around. I take the same stance with gods, I assert that there are none because it is TO ME as ridiculous concept ON ITS FACE that does not match the facts of the universe as I know them; it is up to the religious to PROVE me wrong.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. One tiny quibble with what you say here
it is up to the religious to PROVE me wrong.

IMO, it's up to the religious to prove themselves RIGHT. It's not enough to poke holes in the arguments denying existence of deities, which anyone can do if you try hard enough. A common tactic of believers is to find flaws in evolution theory, for example, and then insist that not only do those flaws disprove that species evolve from others but you MUST accept their creation story instead. Or they insist that you come up with a plausible theory for the intricacy of life or sunsets or whatever. Hell no. It's not enough to show that I can't prove there's no God or Jesus. You better show me, beyond a doubt, that there IS one.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Ok nt.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hello SA - you should read some Karl Popper, if you haven't already.
Logical positivism and all.

I too am a strong atheist - I don't see why I should pussyfoot around doubt when I don't doubt. The theists don't say "well, I suppose I might be wrong" so why should I?
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thanks for the info! I will
try to get around to it!
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. You're right, they don't!
I never thought about that! They are utterly convinced and we're being overly conciliatory to them when we backpedal and say "oh well I guess I don't know for sure". I do that sometimes and believe me it's just so I won't get pounced on. There's no god and I'm sure of it.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. They do, although probably not when they're talking to you. How else
do you think so many of us got here?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I was afraid to voice my doubts to people
Especially when I was much younger. It seemed as though everyone, or most everyone, believed in a supreme being.
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Midwest_Doc Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. Welcome!
I look forward to your ongoing participation.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Thank you for the welcome! nt.
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