Just an FYI for everyone.

[trotsky]

If you don't want to be attacked and have your own personal charitable giving openly questioned by mere speculation, DON'T ask why churches spend so much money on fancy displays instead of helping more people.

Mmmkay? It's apparently none of our business to question the distribution of church resources. Our concerns as human beings just aren't relevant because we're atheists and obviously our motivation is just to attack religion.

[progressoid]

1. Okey Dokey - Thanks for clearing that up!

FWIW, I'm near Omaha's Boys Town. The word is that they are wallowing in money. But they continue to beg and expect people/businesses to donate goods and services to them.

[onager]

2. Oh, we're not allowed to question ANYTHING...

...about the Divine National Superstitions, are we?

I'd like to see detailed annual reports showing exactly where those billions of tax-exempt dollars are going. I'd like to know how much really goes to "the poor," and how much is being spent to do stuff like buy politicians, push medieval nonsense in the public schools, and file frivolous lawsuits claiming Xian persecution.

I won't hold my breath. Once an organization gets the Magic Golden Tax Exemption, I think it's pretty much home free and doesn't have to report to anybody. Including the IRS.

[trotsky]

3. Not to mention how much money...

goes to paying off victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

No, no, if you question the church's spending you are:

A) Totally out of line, since you're an atheist, and just hate religion to begin with and you don't REALLY care that needy people don't get the money.

B) "Bashing" the followers of the church in question by daring to ask where its priorities are.

C) A hypocrite since you don't give 100% of your disposable income to charity either.

Or, in my case:

D) All of the above. :eyes:

[RevolutionaryActs]

4. Was this on DU?

Sweet Freddie Mercury*. They sound like a bunch of f'ing freepers. :o




*I think it sounds better then "Sweet Jesus." Don't you? :silly:

[trotsky]

8. Unfortunately, yes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x16692

[beam me up scottie]

15. Yes.

I ADORE Freddie. Such a terrible loss...still hurts.

<img src="" width="470" height="264">

[Discord]

5. my post in other thread explains why we dont get a say.

and why we don't have a voice. and why we are ignored...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=263x4566

We don't have any right to. We are NOT protected, because of our lack of involvement in it. Though as we all know, we are more involved in the issue of religion more than most religious people.

[Warpy]

6. Sorry, Trotsky, you know I love ya, but I disagree.

I'm sick to death of sanctimonious shits living large and claiming moral superiority in the face of so much hardship in others.

I really don't give a rip what they choose for themselves. However, the second they start trying to rub my nose in how superior they are for their belief system, they get their noses rubbed in how their lives are completely contrary to it.

I think the disconnect between what Jesus preached and what the Christian churches and their congregations actually are has caused the loss of faith in a lot of people.

It's the hypocrisy, not the religion, which I attack, and only when it's shoved into my unwilling face.

[trotsky]

7. Don't worry, Warpy.

Next time I'll be sure to use the :sarcasm: tag. ;-)

[beam me up scottie]

9. Trotsky

you rock.

I saw that yesterday. I'm surprised you stayed in as long as you did.
I got really upset yesterday, I posted info & links for nothing.
I should know better. Good info though, in case you need it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=16806&mesg_id=16907

I will never understand blind faith. It is incomprehensible to me.
Unfortunately some are blind to reality and will attack anyone who actually does see what they cannot.

You do very well out there, Trotsky. All of you guys in A & A are great.

I have yet to see anyone in here defend non-religious dogma, there is none. Why are we not allowed to question the very tenets that doom us?

[onager]

10. Non-religious dogma

Heh. That reminds me of the routine by atheist comedian Paula Poundstone: "What are we supposed to do? Go door-to-door giving people a blank book and say, 'Here, read this!'?"

In a used book store, I recently found an old, tattered book that the Bewievers would probably consider "non-religious dogma." It was a book of speeches by Col. Robert G. Ingersoll, one of America's loudest atheists in the 19th century. He used to end his speeches by demanding that if a god existed, he wanted it to strike him dead with a lightning bolt right then.

Ingersoll was once approached by the Republicans to run for governor of Illinois. They only had one requirement: he had to keep his mouth shut about his lack of religious beliefs.

Ingersoll not only refused, but announced that the meeting was over and kicked the politicians out of his house...while saying he wouldn't hide his opinions on religion "if you offered to make me ruler of the whole world."

[beam me up scottie]

12. LOL!!

I love Paula! George Carlin rocks too.

DU is supposed to be for progressive types, yet I have never seen so much misinformation in my life.
Hitler was an atheist.
Atheism is a religion.
blah blah blah

Even worse, the occasional du'er who will tell you that religion is not being forced on the public, that we are silly to complain about the pledge or school prayer, or, this was great, that we "resent" christian holidays and instead of complaining, we should "start" our own.

So, instead of penis envy we have papal envy? Yeah, that's what it is.

See my previous comment on the situation: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[trotsky]

11. Thanks, beam me up.

It's nice to know SOMEONE is enjoying watching me bang my head against the wall. :)

Great research on those quotes showing how deceptive the church is being!

[beam me up scottie]

13. Fat lot of good it does, ya know?

I try to help out if I can but if I think I'm just going to dumb down the *cough* conversation, you're better off without me!
I'm tag-teaming it with JonnyB, don't ya know, it's "funny" that we are both in the same threads, on the same side of issues...:sarcasm:
No more than one atheist per thread now...:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

14. I was singing your praises again.

Do you feel worshipped now?

[opiate69]

16. Damn, Trotsky....

I just read that thread.. you're a far braver man than I. Now, if only you'd sell off everything you own to feed the poor. ;)

[Bluebear]

17. Super duper duper!

NOW I know!

[Bill McBlueState]

18. the personal attacks

Two things about that thread:

1/ It's stunning how many responses resort to personal attacks. People are so shocked and appalled they're talking to an ATHEIST they have to focus on that instead of the substance of your argument.

2/ Why don't people skim the whole thread before responding? I swear, thirty different people made the same stupid "Why don't you sell all your stuff, you bastard?" argument.

[dwckabal]

19. Incredible

I'll never forget the first time I was called a Catholic-basher. I had only been on DU for a couple of months, and I was flabbergasted.

The topic involved the Catholic view of the inerrancy of the Bible. I have close personal Catholic friends who tell me the Bible is the literal word of God, yet this joker was telling me how he went to Catholic school and they never taught that, and why was I bashing Catholics?

Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing, is it not?

[beam me up scottie]

20. Hell, they have been calling other catholics

pope-bashers.
If this is how they white wash the pope's record, I can't wait to see how they bestow sainthood on * when he kicks the bucket.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Trotsky

they're still posting in your "How many people could the Catholic Church feed..." thread.

Somebody just posted a "supply side jesus" cartoon! :rofl:


:popcorn:

[trotsky]

22. "Supply-side Jesus"

LOLOL, ain't that the truth. What a lame excuse! "If the popes and bishops didn't wear such fancy robes, there'd be a lot of tailors and tradesmen out of work!"

[beam me up scottie]

23. where have I heard that...

Not safe out there today man, got called out, a friend got stalked.
Not cool. Be careful.

[Rhiannon12866]

24. I see where you're coming from, but it's also a non-issue, really.

I had a nice chat with a good friend of mine, recently, who is a life-long Catholic, and, I think, still attends church. But she's also a liberal Democrat. She said that her biggest problem with the Church is all the wealth that they're sitting on, when there are so many people starving and in need, in the world. I have since heard, on news shows, that it's part of Church law that these artifacts just can never be sold. I am still looking for a good article, on the subject, to send my friend.

So it's not just those of us who are questioning this.

I told her that this was the same in Russia, under the Tsars, when the royal family and the Orthodox Church was sitting on unbelievable wealth, which I saw when I visited there. The people were starving, and they rose up. Not the same scenario, but I understood what provoked them.:-(

[trotsky]

25. True, but it's more than just artifacts and art.

All the property they own (tax-free) and all the money they take in, and then to the focus of my post: the pageantry and opulence the church leaders display on a daily basis, not to mention when an event like a pope passing happens.

I wish more people would question it.

[onager]

26. "So Christ and Moses are...

"...standing in the back of St. Patrick's, in New York. Watching Cardinal Spellman and Bishop Sheen. And Christ is confused. Because their route took them thru Spanish Harlem. Christ saw 10 people living in one room, and the Cardinal is wearing a ring worth 12 grand."

(old Lenny Bruce routine from the Fifties. It frequently got him jailed for blasphemy. To the Fundies, those were the Good Old Days...)

[beam me up scottie]

27. Lenny Bruce was awesome.

I'm surprised how many people never heard of him.
My dad is a big fan.

[Discord]

28. I know of him, but haven't seen that much.

Anything in particular that I should look for? Something particularly interesting?

=)

[Rhiannon12866]

30. Great quote. I think I would have liked Lenny Bruce.

I may admire this Pope, but the Fundies scare the crap out of me. And they are trying to use his death for political gain. This Pope condemned capital punishment, which Bush* has championed with frightening fervor, and the war in Iraq, calling it "a defeat for humanity," "illegal," "immoral" and "unjust." And he compared Bush* to the anti-Christ. But if anyone reminds them of this, they just brush it aside, like it's irrelevant. That what it's all about, for me! And I sure think it was relevant to the man who said this!:grr:

[Rhiannon12866]

29. Yes, this is an excellent point and I agree, as does my Catholic friend.

This is something that we all should question. But I do think that it's interesting to note, that in his "will," Pope John Paul II had no worldly possessions to pass on. Anything he had belonged to the Church, and it all returned to them. I think people have come to expect the opulence, while I was just blown away by the wealth of the Russian Orthodox Church, after a revolution and so many years. The death of such a popular Pope, which causes the eyes of the world to be focused on Rome, should be the perfect time to bring up these questions, like they came to my Catholic friend. She can't be the only one questioning this.:shrug:

[onager]

31. "Anything he had belonged to the Church...

"..., and it all returned to them."

Grumpy Atheist must point out that this is exactly the reason for celibacy in the church. It wasn't about piety, it was about property.

[trotsky]

32. Reminds me of Carl Sagan's quote...

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

[Rhiannon12866]

33. He could have asked for any personal possessions that he had

To be passed on to his family, but he really had no one. They all died when he was quite young.:-(

It's been speculated that this is why he always particularly enjoyed spending time with groups of young people, even though, when he was a young priest, this violated Church policy of the time.:shrug:

And, after the recent scandals, particularly in the American Church, the next Pope could conceivably change the policy against allowing priests to marry. I was talking, today, with an Irish Catholic lady who's in her 60s, and she brought this up. I just mentioned John Paul II's refusal to budge on the issue of condoning birth control, but she took it that much farther.:shrug:

[Tafiti]

34. Speaking of which...

It's really funny you pointed these things out on here recently, when here comes this article in The Onion:

Heaven Less Opulent Than Vatican, Reports Disappointed Pope

The article is pretty hilarious too, if you're interested:

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4115&n=0&ref=myy

Just thought that was kind of funny.