Wow

[Az]

The price of playing civilly. Everyonce in a while you find yourself dancing with an absolute nutter. Not sure if pointing to the dialog will trigger admin armageddon but I expect some can find the interesting bit of dialog. If you can't IM me for the details.

[A HERETIC I AM]

1. Aw come on! What happened?

I just stopped for the day (Boise, ID, on the way to the Seattle area) and i have to go to bed soon! What happened? Can you post the link to the thread?

[beam me up scottie]

2. I have been watching that exchange.

It's been painful, to say the least.
Kudos for your perseverance, most would have given up much sooner.
Why does someone join a progressive internet forum with a mind that's already closed?
We don't exactly babysit the clueless...

Do you ever lose it, Az?

[Az]

5. The theists here are a lot less aggressive

than the ones I am used to dealing with. I used to debate in the #atheism channel on IRC in the DALNET network. We were probably one of the largest atheist debate channels around for a long time.

We drew a large share of aggressive theists. I was a proponent of the even handed approach. Such a stance would usually gut their attack and eventually bring them around to considering what you really were saying.

Most theist/atheist confrontations are about surface anger and doubt. If you can weather the initial attack and not respond in kind you will often find that some theists are already harboring doubts of their own and the aggression is often a cover. Treat them decently and give them fair minded information and they eventually slow the attack and begin asking questions.

But then everyonce in a while you get someone that ... well there is no hope. The only thing you can do with them is use them as a good bad example. I am reminded of a post in Usenet. A fallen theist came out of lurk mode and posted that it wasn't the arguments of the atheists that had convinced them. It was the arguments of the theists. Particularly the Boatwright (if you have to ask you don't know) type theists with what appears to be a OCD for God.

The thing that I suppose holds my reactions in check is I know where the theists are coming from. They really believe these things are true. Its part of who they are. So when dealing with them you have to keep that in mind. Its not something they are actively trying to delude themself about. Everything in their life has lead up to this belief.

My prefered method of dealing with them is to provide some information to develop in their own mind. I don't like trying to go for instant kills of their beliefs. They simply aren't effective. I could sit down and explain to them all the flaws in their belief and then explain how their personal relationship with God is just a neurological side effect of the nature of our consciousness. But without a developed support system internally developed to hold this information it will quickly be overcome by a life time's support of their religious beliefs.

The mind is like a tug of war. Different positions constantly vying with each other for acceptance. Complex arraingements of supporting positions keep one position or another in the dominant position. If a singular hit of refutation strikes the individual there likely is not sufficient support in the mind to keep it from being overwhelmed by the rest of their experiences. But if you lay down a support structure first and allow them to build reliance on it... over time they will begin to undermine their own belief system. And when that occurrs they will seak out someone they can talk to in order to resolve the matter. If all they see around them are other believers and atheists ready to shread their beliefs they will return to the believers. If however they have individuals around them that are atheists but not as interested in shreading their beliefs they can open up to these individuals and begin asking questions.

[onager]

6. Boatwright!

Man, THAT name is a real blast from the past. People wrote entire FAQ's about dealing with that obstreperous asshead.

[beam me up scottie]

7. So you ARE trying

to take over the world!

I KNEW IT!!!

EAC'ers UNITE!
Muahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Just kidding, I get what you're saying but I would be happy if they would just quit it with the rw talking points and condescending blather.
Such as telling us that we should be tolerated because jesus did so?
That jesus loves us anyway?
That they understand our "belief system" and that atheism is a religion?
O8) + :evilfrown: = :nuke: = :evilgrin:
DU is host to a lot of great people. Most liberal religious types appreciate diversity and are curious and respectful. I'm glad you have the patience to try to reason with the ignorant ones.

Maybe I'm just tired...living in a red state sucks. I feel like opening a bottle of bubbly when I see a car without w stickers and a fish on the back.

[fshrink]

9. I don't have your faith in cognition.

I see religiosity as deeply rooted in the unconscious. So that to reduce it you need more than arguments. What cognitive science calls "faulty belief" is actually a perfectly valid belief on an unconscious level, which why it's there.

[Az]

10. Oh agreed, the argument itself doesn't do the job

Thats why I often pull up short from delivering the final blow. The shift in attitude and belief means nothing if it is not internally worked out by the individual.

The trick is to drop enough ideas in a congenial manner on them to get them within throwing distance of freedom. They will not initially look to that direction. But the ideas and concepts you lay down will remain as long as they find something to tie into in their mind. As they continue their effect the person will eventually start to consider the alternate to their beliefs in conjunction with these new ideas. And then they can own the process and complete the journey on their own.

[beam me up scottie]

3. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I just read it again. :mad:

[GOPFighter]

4. It started as flamebait

It should have been locked IMO.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

8. i am pretty sure i know which thread you are referencing.

i must say that my hat goes off to you Az, you handle yourself and your arguments exceptionally well and always treat people with respect and dignity no matter what they throw at you. i truly admire your patients with others and your dedication to "real" communication. i can't say that i have ever seen message board posts on the subject of belief that are so level headed, considerate and tactful. keep up the good work sir!