I'm in a 'mixed' marriage & need a little help...

[progressoid]

Here's the thing, I'm non-theistic and my wife of 17 years has been slowly veering back toward the flock.

Quick background: I was raised by tolerant, liberal parents as a christian, but by my early teens I had given up on the god thing. However, I never really told my family about my beliefs (or lack of). My wife was basically non-religious; at the time, her most spiritual pursuits were reading the I-Ching. Essentially, most of my immediate family is some flavor of Christian. I had come to terms with living 'in the closet'. I just ignored all of their religion stuff and they seemed to leave me alone too. But for the last few years that plan ain't working too well.

It started when we had children...as an appeasement to the grandparents, we took our first daughter to a Unitarian Church for a while. By the time our second daughter was born we were living in my wife's home town (no Unitarian Church) and we caved into the mother-in-law and let the girls attend her church occasionally. After my father-in-law's death (he was NOT a churchgoer - I liked him a lot), my wife and mother-in-law began taking our girls to church more often. Fast forward to today: My wife has joined the church & sings in the choir and my kids are pretty much indoctrinated into this lifestyle.

My wife and I have argued about this a number of times, but it's fruitless. I'm trying to unindoctrinate them on the side but I'm outnumbered and outgunned.

So, what would I like from DU atheists and agnostics? Hell, I dunno. Maybe I just need to vent. I feel like I've failed.
Any of you go through anything like this or have similar problems with churchgoing family members?

[fshrink]

1. No similar experience but...

Stay the course. Your course. Don't fight their belief but firmly and consistently maintain your lack thereof without proselytizing. You can rely on my clinical experience: you weigh more, way more, than you think you do. You'll find out some day.

[progressoid]

3. Thanks for the support -

Fighting their beliefs is the tricky part. For some reason, religious issues that I used to see as minor annoyances are now a serious aggravation to me. I used to be a happy-go-lucky guy.

I suppose it will be easier for them to see my point of view if I'm not irritated-angry-guy.

[Longhorn]

2. I agree with fshrink.

You have as much right to let them know what you believe as your wife does. However, the decision is ultimately theirs and I know you will continue to love them no matter what they decide someday. They may even go back and forth on the issue as they grow up. I don't believe it is your job to convince them to go along with your views any more than your wife should, though most Christians tend to believe it's their obligation to make believers out of everyone else.

I was raised to be a Christian but came to my own atheist views in spite of that. It would have been easier for me if I was raised to believe that it is OKAY to come to my own conclusions. If you and your wife can just agree on that, your kids will be fine.

Raise them to be critical thinkers in all areas of life. We shared our atheist views with our children but we allowed them to go to church with family and friends and told them that there are good people who believe in god and that's okay. They are now 20 to 25 and two of the four are atheists while the other two are somewhat agnostic.

[progressoid]

4. Yes, critical thinking is on the top of my list.

We have agreed it's OK for them to come to their own conclusions but, I'm afraid they are getting so much of that 'love of jesus' stuff that it's becoming overpowering. However, my wife is OK with them experiencing other belief (and non-belief) systems. I'm also trying to find other non-religious experiences to broaden their horizons.

I guess I never thought we would be in this position. Not at all what I imagined.

[politicat]

5. expose to the wonders of nature from a scientific perspective.

God didn't make the grand canyon, centuries of water cutting through sandstone did. Doesn't make it any less spectacular. Star-gazing is not about looking for someone to watch over us, but about looking out and realizing how alone we are and how much we must care for each other and take care of each other.

Read a lot of science, especially natural sciences, so you can inject that into the conversation. Even if your family isn't fundamentalist, the whole God did it in 6 days ( and the effort shows.... :eyes: ) and god's always watching over me are ideas that need to be countered. They don't teach self-reliance and girls need that.

Also, encouraging them in the sciences is to their advantage, and will do as much to make them skeptical of religion as anything else.

Pcat

[fshrink]

6. When I said that you weighed more than you thought, this

is also what I meant. Looks to me like your girls are opposing you. They push the thing further into Mom's direction and have Dad all riled up. The more it will generate effect in you, the more they'll keep on doing it. There are probably also issues of loyalty to Mom, "choosing Dad over Mom", identity development etc... So it might be time to think about letting go, drop the issue altogether and get back to the easy-going guy you used to be and more. That's your shortest route.

[Gelliebeans]

7. You have my sympathy

It must be extremely difficult as they say "between a rock and a hard place" :(

[progressoid]

8. You can say that again

Especially this time of the year. It's a struggle to keep the angry barbs to a minimum. I want to shout, "Please, please, please, don't do this! I want my family to be enlightened!" Instead I have to be a lot more subtle. Some times I'll use a news story to point out the illogical nature of a particular sects beliefs while leaving the door open for them to make the obvious connection to what they are being fed in church.

My older daughter is now asking some clarifying questions about biblical issues. Since I was raised with this, I'm fairly well versed so I can show her some other things to consider but it's an uphill battle.

Now I'm looking for some good infedellish books for pre and early teen girls to open their minds a little more.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Not an infidel book, but a must if you've got early teen girls

"The New Our Bodies, Ourselves"

If they're this into xianity, odds are their little heads are being filled with all KINDS of bunk about sex, sexuality, the role of women, etc. "The New Our Bodies, Ourselves" addresses questions on sex and female health for girls in early, middle, and late adolescence. It comes from a secular perspective and is something you can slip in under the radar, defending yourself, if necessary, with the old "I'm too embarassed to have this talk with the girls,".

[Philostopher]

10. I remember reading a transcript of the Moyers/Campbell

discussions that's titled 'The Power Of Myth' back when I was learning critical thinking after 20 years of unquestioning Christianity. It's the transcript of a discussion Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers had on PBS, about Campbell's studies.

Campbell believed all civilizations were driven to create their own heroes, myths and gods. The book doesn't necessarily obviate religious beliefs -- Campbell was, I believe, a Catholic who attended religious school in his youth, and may still have considered himself a believer at the time of the interview -- but it does teach you to look at your own beliefs critically, and most importantly, helps you ask yourself why you choose to believe or not to believe.

The interview is also available on VHS and probably DVD by now. I think it's good to help people think critically about religion without necessarily coming across as anti-religious.

[progressoid]

14. Our library just got the book on CD.

Maybe that will be our book to listen to during the 4 hour car ride to my Parents for the holidays.

[Philostopher]

15. Here's a link to the web site ...

for his foundation:

http://www.jcf.org/

You can probably find out more information on him there, see if you think his general slant would be offensive or seem too direct for your daughters or your wife. I think mostly, it's about thinking about the methods by which societies develop and transmit spiritual and mythical beliefs, and how pressure is used to get people to conform. It's more academic -- though not inaccessible -- than most people tend to be about religious beliefs, which is why it kind of eased me over to thinking it was okay not to have any, or at least at the time, not to have the ones I was raised to have.

[robbedvoter]

11. Do not compromise your identity

I did , years ago humor my ex, his family in their religious traditions (mostly fasting for Yom Kipur, eating only some foods on Passover) One year, I felt like eaten one of the things not on the list and I met with such righteous indignation, you'd think I was breaking some covenant I never signed. It was one of the things leading to ending the whole thing - the feeling that my identity was hijacked - in my desire to be nice and tolerant.

[progressoid]

16. hijacked identity! Yes

Being nice and tolerant has kept me caged in to a certain extent. I haven't really felt open about this since college. Even then I played the game when I was with my family. I suppose I should have come out a long time ago.

I think most of them think I just don't like the church experience. Actually, that's not so bad if you don't mind that Stepford wives look in everyone's eyes. Sometimes the music is ok.

[PassingFair]

12. Here's my story...

My mother was/is an Episcopalian. My father was atheist.
We kids went to church every Sunday with my mother while my father slept in and watched TV. The perk for going to church was lunch out.
My dad NEVER talked against god, my mother or her church. I believe he LIKED his Sunday morning alone-time!
When we asked him concrete questions about religion, he would give us his opinion. He was truthful and never bashed my mother. By the time I was 7, I was caught singing "A Zombie, A Zombie", instead of "A Sunbeam, A Sunbeam, Jesus wants me for a Sunbeam".
Kicked out of the choir. Banned from the Xmas party for pimping out the Santa myth. Relegated to squirming in the pew for an hour, I rebelled and even the bribe of lunch out was not enough to lure me out of the house on Sunday morning.
So, I hung out with my dad instead, so did two of my brothers. We went to church on Easter and X-Mas just to make mom happy.
Bottom line: My dad led by example. He was the happiest, smartest, most easily pleased, funniest guy I've ever known. No one with "religion" even came close to his life of conscious acceptance and joy.
Don't worry, be happy and your kids will see that life without superstition is a life WITHOUT irrational fear and WITH personal responsibility.

[progressoid]

13. Thanks for your story

If I substitute 'Lutheran' for 'Episcopalian' and add 'surfed the web' to 'slept in and watched TV', this sounds a lot like life here. Thanks for the positive vibes!

[Longhorn]

17. Great story

and great advice! :yourock:

[Hamlette]

18. Read Dawkins' letter to his 8 year old daughter

maybe give it to your kids. It's in his book with Satan in the title. (I'll help you find it if you don't know it.)

[progressoid]

19. "A Devil's Chaplin" ?

Looks good. I'm intrigued by the letter to his daughter. After reading a few pages online, it looks like I'll have to buy that one.

Frankly, I didn't finish the only other book of his I started; "The Blind Watchmaker", but "Devils Chaplin" also has his eulogy to Douglas Adams so I'm going to have to get it.

[PassingFair]

20. Love Dawkins....

Try another book of his..."River out of Eden" or something like that...an easier read than the watchmaker...

[Misunderestimator]

21. Just keep giving them your perspective and let them decide for themselves

I was fully indoctrinated during my childhood, but gave it up the moment I left home at 18. Now 24 years later, my father has also given it up. If they choose to go to church, let them... but the minute they don't want to go, don't let your wife bully them into it.

[marlakay]

22. I am in a mixed marriage too

I was curious about this thread and wanted to check it out. I am not overly religious these days, but I believe in God. Stopped going to church many years ago. My husband doesn't believe at all. We have been married for 4 years. We have been married before so we are middleaged and I didn't think religion was all that important as who you are as a person.

To me its a matter of respect. I respect his non beliefs and he respects my beliefs. My older daughter (26) goes to church and we went Saturday night to see a church play my grandkids were in. Both of us were kind of uncomfortable, mostly my husband but we went for the kids.

I think what is the hardest for you is that she is REALLY into it now. I think my husband would have a hard time if I went back to that to. But I have been free of the kool aid for awhile now. Like you I was raised with christian parents, but not overly religious, I was a jesus freak in the 70's but got over it, thank God! Now I have a hard time believing in a book that many people pick and choose which things they still want to believe. To me either it is all true and right, or why do it?

I do admit though I get mad at my husband when him and his teenage daughter make fun of anything religious and make a joke of it. I don't put down his nonbeliefs so I think he should show me respect in mine. Mostly he does. But I think he gets goofy around his kid, he doesn't want her to get caught up in religion so he tends to put it down when she is around. I don't agree. But she isn't mine to raise.

I think your wife is totally brain washed, it is easy to get that way in church. Trying to unbrainwash her is hard because the more you try the more they will all pray for you!! Best to just live a good life and be an example of a person who is good without church. That you don't need a building to mold you into a great human being.

[trotsky]

23. Your daughters may be too old for this book, but...

"Let's Pretend" by Dan Barker of the Freedom From Religion Foundation is most excellent. It's written for children ages 6-12 to encourage them to analyze myths for truth or falsehoods. The FFRF also has many other books and publications that might help you as well.

http://www.ffrf.org/books/

[progressoid]

25. Thanks for the book suggestion. I'm ordering it now.

We have a fifth grader who tends to be rather uncritical about tales told to her. At least more so than her older sister.

[0rganism]

24. seems like you and your wife are replaying her own family dynamic

People cling to religion because it satisfies a longing for deep intimacy, security, validation, and a committed peer group. The more of that you give to your wife normally, the less of it she'll require from her churchgoing. Until you get around the church barrier, your relationship is going to suffer. Perhaps she has become more like her mother as she ages, and in her eyes you are expected to behave like your father-in-law. Meanwhile, your daughters are being sucked in to this situation as a proxy for her younger self. If you consider your mother-in-law during your wife's childhood, you'll probably be able to see where she's headed.

For your daughters, just let go, let them choose for themselves. Give them your love, show them you care about them personally, as yourself. Teach by example. Demonstrate how to evaluate ideas critically, but politely and without excess emotion. Answer honestly if you are asked about your beliefs, but don't go out of your way to challenge theirs. You probably already have a pretty good notion of where they're coming from, and if you have any doubts, attend one of the services to be sure.

Under no circumstances should you participate in a heated argument with your family on the subject of religion. Physically remove yourself from such situations if they arise. Anything else will only hurt your marriage. Life is too short to waste in futile anger directed at the people you love the most.

People change, and patience is a prerequisite for any long-term relationship, as you surely know after 17 years. My wife was a devout Catholic when we married, and now she's a fervent new-ager. I don't mind either way. I remember that I love her unconditionally and want her true happiness more than the faint fleeting ego-gratification trip of "being right". I try to see how her faith helps her cope, and let her do what she feels she needs to do. Someday, that too will pass.

That's my advice.