Heretical thoughts on atheism and politics

[Modem Butterfly]

I discovered DU in the summer of 2001 by discovering FreeRepubic. My dog was killed by a hit and run driver with a FR bumpersticker on his truck. I was using FR to find the guy, and ended up finding DU as well. About the time I was a moderator on DU, shortly before and just after 9/11, my partner took over my FR ID.

My partner is an atheist. He's also a shameless troll monkey. He entertained himself for a couple of months just trolling the freaks, as he put it. As it turned out, there was a small group of atheists on FR at that time. My partner, who is also an atheist, got added to an atheism ping list. He started getting "freepmail" from other atheists, many expressing dismay at the hold the religious right has on conservatism. My partner said they all seemed more like Libertarians than Republicans, although they would describe themselves as "old school" Repubs: keeping the government out of our private lives and out of the churches is part of keeping the government small. One person even said that the greatest threat to freedom came from the conflation of religion and politics.

The atheists he met on FR were paranoid. I guess that would stand to reason, right? They were deeply concerned about how long JimRob would tolerate their presence. Turns out they were right: JimRob banned and deleted the lot of them a few weeks after my partner found them. The reason my partner got was that they were disruptive to FR.

I'm starting to wonder if, in the hyper-religious environment we have today, atheists and free-thinkers in general will have to look to themselves to ensure the rights of people to not be religious. Skinner isn't JimRob, and FR isn't DU, but just as the attitudes on FR are a fairly good cross-section of the GOP, DU is pretty well representative of the Democratic party. We are paid lip-service and tolerated so long as no one is made uncomfortable by our presence. We are encouraged to participate and to advance the goals of the Demorcatic party so long as we don't wish to include our own goals.

Atheists are a diverse group. About the only thing we have in common is our skepticism. But that seems enough, these days at least, to hang us together.

I have no idea how, or even if, atheists can work together to protect freedom from religion, but I have come to believe that we should.

[trotsky]

1. Heretical? Sounds pretty damn sane to me.

But then in many religions, sanity IS heresy, so you may have a point.

I don't know how we can effectively fight for our rights anymore. It seems there will always be someone offended by our mere existence, let alone when we open our traps to express and defend our opinions.

But if we don't keep pushing, and don't keep reminding people that we are here, we stand to lose our freedom NOT to believe. It just may be that DU is no longer a place where we can do that.

P.S. Sorry about your dog. :hug:

[Modem Butterfly]

3. 's'allright

(Wonder Years voiceover)

I found the guy who did it, but revenge gave me no comfort. It didn't bring my dog back and it didn't make us even. Ultimately, it just takes time I suppose. I think that was the biggest life lesson I've learned as an adult.

Cue sappy music

[YankeyMCC]

2. You're right of course

and in fact it goes beyond just atheism, most core issues are and Should go beyond just party or even political divisions.

But the right of freedom from religion is a very clear case where people have to reach across all sorts of boundaries, particularly political.

My closest atheist friend is a staunch republican. While I have several people in my family and among my friends I can openly discuss atheism with and get support from none are atheists themselves. Most are not very religious or perhaps "observant" is the better word but they still believe in at least one god.

So it's actually brought me closer to my republican friend who is an atheist. Even with our very different views on politics.

It was in fact on this common concern between us, the growing encroachment of religion mixing with government, and the kind of interference in personal lives this brings that allowed me to convince my friend to vote for Kerry in the last election.

And to be honest if we had a wacko religious fundy Dem running for office I'd be very susceptible to being convinced to vote for another party candidate myself. And I believe it could happen - that the Dems nominate someone like that - maybe not very likely but within the realm of possibility particularly if they don't do well in 2006 with openly secular candidates.

[salvorhardin]

4. Absolutely necessary

I would go further. We need to somehow dump all the old baggage of the wholely unuseful left-right political axis and concentrate on opposing those who are antithetical to rationalism and progress. And for some who would take that statement the wrong way, I'm not advocating dumping the Democratic Party, just abandoning this left-right culture war that has been foisted on us. The real culture war is against rationality and progress.

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Well said

We need to break free of the poisonous atmosphere that has resulted, in part, from the blending of religion and politics, regardless of whether it's fundies who want to ban contracpeption or Woo Woos who want homeopathy paid for by Medicaid.

[salvorhardin]

7. Thanks.

Though this is an idea my friends and I have been kicking around for a long time, David Brin has talked about it at length. I've really been pushing people to listen to what David Brin has been saying the past couple of years. He's a bit more libertarian than I'm comfortable with, but he is making some important points that I think can serve as a basis for real discussion.

The place to start would be his essay The Real Culture War but he has expanded on these ideas in his http://davidbrin.blogspot.com">blog. Oddly enough, these thoughts appear to have their origins in his critiques on Star Wars vs. Star Trek, found here, here, here and here. Another example of science fiction influencing the real world. :-)

[rexcat]

6. It always has been a tough environment for atheists in the...

political arena and in this (US) society as a whole. When people are scared they cling to their prejudices and people of no "faith" are high on that list and not very tolerated, even in the good old US. As far as atheists hanging together that might be more literal than we want especially if the religious extremists get their way. As you have stated, atheists are a diverse group with many different and conflicting goals. Atheists, for the most part, are not joiners, they (we) tend to stay to ourselves. Somewhat of a defensive mechanism in my opinion.

What I think is important on DU is when there is bigoted comments directed toward atheists on DU it needs to be pointed out. Maybe some of the members of DU will finally get the message (probably hopefully thinking on my part).

[BurtWorm]

8. I tried to recommend this for the "Greatest" list

but couldn't. This deserves to be there, MB. You've expressed the situation very well.

I didn't participate in the threads on the crosses at Crawford. I think Cindy Sheehan is great and brave, and I respect what she's been trying to do, but I think there are more than enough posts about her without me adding my voice at every opportunity.

I also greatly respect the veterans against the war, the group that put up "Arlington West." But I firmly disagree that they're above criticism for conflating religion and patriotism. And I'm just a little shocked by the hostility you were shown (despite the reasonableness of your initial presentation) for daring to make your criticism)--just a little. The reaction you prompted is just a little more proof that even Democrats and liberals need to be educated about atheists and atheism from time to time.

[Zenlitened]

9. "Error: You can't recommend threads from this forum "

Hmmm... A&A threads can't be recommended, but R&T threads can? Or is permission to recommend based on the DU member, not the forum?

:shrug:

[salvorhardin]

10. I don't think

threads in any of the Groups can be recommended. Otherwise, astrology and UFO abductions would be on the Greatest page all the time. :-)

On edit: I wish this could be nominated. It is a point of view that deserves to be promoted.

[Zenlitened]

11. Ahhh... got it. Forums or Groups. Thanks.

:hi:

[Jokerman]

13. Groups are only open to star bellied sneeches (donors).

And we can't recommend threads to people who haven't ponied up the dough.

[Zenlitened]

15. Where, oh where is Sylvester McMonkey McBean...

... and his fantastical, wonderful star-belly machine?

LOL! :D

[jonnyblitz]

12. great post as usual MB!!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[onager]

14. That was great

As was your last thread, which I don't see anymore...

There's really something funny going on here. As far as DU goes, we seem to "work together" pretty well to defend ourselves when somebody make a stupid, prejudiced comment...just to use one example. But unfortunately, our threads get deleted. Or we get into a gigantic pissing contest which always seems to be resolved in favor of the believers.

I'm a lot more short-tempered with that sort of thing, the past few days.

[jonnyblitz]

16. i find myself often not having the mental energy to jump into the

fray when i should. i get physically spent when these issues come up and I get riled up. If i had a bunch of xanax i would probably be fine..hehe..

[salvorhardin]

17. I have the same experience

There should be a name for this "oh cod, not this crap again -- i can't deal right now" feeling.

[Taxloss]

19. God-derit?

Or should I say:

?derit-goD

[GOPFighter]

18. I think many Democrats abhor us....

...not because they are especially religious, but they are afraid of being associated with us.

For a party that has been losing (ostensibly) elections by the slimmest of margins, they are afraid of losing votes of religious folks that are fed up with Republicans but just can't vote for a party that tolerates atheists. They view us the way the Republicans used to view the Fundies - they want our votes but wish we'd shut up. Oh, the irony! <chuckle>

[Taxloss]

20. Or, indeed, the way some Democrats used to view blacks.

Which just goes to show that the rush to the centre is the rush to the right.

[Taxloss]

21. Good post MB.

Check your PM in a few minutes.

[WhollyHeretic]

22. Good post. One of the prime examples of this is that

no one of any political stripe could even entertain the idea of running for national office without professing their belief in god from every mountain top. Dan Perkins who does the comic This Modern World did a great comic about this, it was a parallel universe where every one running for office had to profess their belief in some wildly ridiculous idea, I can't find it right now though.

[Arianrhod]

23. The American Revolution

was fomented by the writings of perhaps the only avowed atheist of his time: Thomas Paine. After the English were defeated, he expatriated himself to France (along with Jefferson and Franklin), but--unlike them--when he tried to come back, he was imprisoned for his staunch and adamant stance for individual freedom. In the end, he was indicted for treason. Apparently, the wealthy religious nuts who founded our country had tired of his usefulness, and couldn't tolerate his continued heretical belief in the freedom of the common man. . . .

Freethinkers have never been welcome in Western "civilization". Ask Thoreau, or Emerson, or Whitman, or Skinner, or Kennedy, or King, or Kepler, or Galilleo, or Huygens, or Voltaire, or Nietzsche, or Sartre, or Russell, or DeGaulle, or Sagan, or Ruse. . . .

Atheists are the most hated people on the planet. Might as well get used to it.

[toddaa]

24. Democratic candidates taking for granted freethinkers at election time

We're tolerated as long as we vote for Democratic candidates. They pay lip service to us, but how many actually go out of their way to speak with freethinker groups?

DU has a core group of posters who post some pretty hateful antilibertarian rhetoric every time the word pops up. Libertarians are not just Republicans who smoke dope. Yes, there are some libertarian woo woos (the cult of Rand being at the top of the list), but if you want a group of people who 100% consistently separation church and state, its libertarian minded folks.

In short, we need to protect our asses because from what I can see from today's political landscape, nobody's going to give a damn what happens to us. If there's one political constituency in the Democratic party that is expendable with absolutely no repercussions, its us. I say we start being more judicious in our political affiliations and start exercising some real political muscle by only backing candidates who are consistant civil libertarians. The Godless March was a very good start, but I don't recall any of the Democratic contenders from last year even mentioning it. We are begrudgingly tolerated and largely ignored and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Oh, and it's time to call a smackdown on the "not a real Christian" posts that DU seems to be plagued with lately. This decendent of the clan Macintosh knows a True Scotsman when he sees one.

[wli]

25. even the Democrats hate atheists

No doubt they'd dump all the atheists into prison to pander to the fundies in a heartbeat just as readily as Bushler.

[Kolesar]

26. I somehow avoid the brickbats hurled at atheists at DU

I just don't see what you folks are seeing, despite my not-inconsequential post count. Rarely, I see some believer posting something stupid and insulting about atheists. It is hardly a dominant theme in my experience, though.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. You should consider yourself fortunate

Others can't say that their experience has been similarly positive, or even neutral. The most recent incident that comes to mind was, of course, the "These people must not believe in God" post. A poster on a GD thread stated unequivically and almost literally that a Freeper who had used Photoshop to mock Cindy Sheehan "...must not believe in God". Several of us took offense, hit alert, and called attention to the post, however, it was not deleted. Eventually, Skinner came in to the thread discussing the situation, locked that thread and told us all that we knew what the poster meant, and just had an ax to grind.

It's upsetting because a similar post about any other group would not be tolerated. As Trotsky said, if the original poster had said "These people must not be white," or "These people must not be heterosexual" the post would have been deleted. Unfortunately, it is one of a long train of slights and affronts to atheists, which, when taken together, leads some to perceive bias.

[Kolesar]

28. He/she could have said "These people must not believe in Christ"

...and received even more outrage from even more DUers. I might speculate that the poster was so ingrained in the belief system, that such is his way of expressing a moral outrage. That is giving the poster the benefit of the doubt. OTOH, I was raised in a belief system, and I am sure that I never criticized someone as being "apart from God" when they did something unseemly. My belief system was weak and always under attack while I was young. I had a lot of peers who had no use for church so I would never get the god-thing going.