I'm getting sick of the spin here

[WildEyedLiberal]

So Kerry gets swiftboated with the aid of Republicans, treacherous Democrats, and the media, and he's suddenly no longer a "serious candidate," but somehow it's not allowed for anyone to bring up the negatives of any other candidate? What is this double standard bullshit? Apparently, if we argue with anyone who dismisses Kerry, we're being "belligerent," but if we bring up any negative points about Clinton etc we're "smearing anyone who isn't Kerry." So in other words, it's okay to derisively dismiss Kerry, but it's "divisive" to argue against any other candidate.

Could it be any more obvious that Democrats are every bit as invested in ending Kerry's career as Republicans? Not that I'm surprised, because Kerry is not the kind of person to check and see if its politically expedient to uncover the truth.

[ProSense]

1. Like Carville, some Democrats are

in denial that this is anything but RW smear. The fact is, the media is propping up Obama and Clinton, to knock the more experienced and viable candidates down a notch (and substance hasn't even entered the picture). If they believe Obama and Clinton will be above this kind of assault, they're in for a rude awakening.

Republicans plot to bring down Pelosi ... and Clinton with her

By Hans Nichols and Philip Sherwell in Washington, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:28am GMT 19/11/2006

New Speaker's embarrassing week has made it easier for her opponents to attack

Snip...

Mrs Pelosi, 66, who is married to a multi-millionaire property investor, will become the most powerful woman in American political history when the new House sits for the first time in January.

As speaker, she ranks second-in-line to the presidency after Dick Cheney, the vice-president. Her solidly liberal voting record during her 19 years as a San Francisco congresswoman have made her a long-time target for Republican strategists' attacks.

As we saw in with the Kerry smear, the public is a lot smarter, but a relentless media will require constant focus, or not, depending on how the Party handles it!

Now there is an incentive for impeachment!

[beachmom]

2. I pointed that out to somebody on your thread

The way Pelosi has been pummelled is utter BS. As Digby said, Gingrich'e majority pick also didn't make it, and he wasn't given a hard time like Nancy. The media sucks, but I think a lot of people already know that. Problem is, if the media goes after somebody that these posters don't like, suddenly they're all wise and knowing. Yeah right.

[karynnj]

3. I don't know about that

I think that there are pot shots all around. There are only a few threads that have some Hillary people defending her, but I see far more people - even as they say Kerry is not viable - saying if they have to choose between Kerry and Hillary it's Kerry.

There is a lot of parroting the spin - and that's to be expected. Kerry has only tentatively begun to try to come back - this was a blow. My guess is that it would likely have happened even if this joke didn't happen.

From my perspective, look what the centrist part of the party was willing to throw away:

- The Republicans started their typical echo chamber and it was going at top speed

- Kerry hit back with truth - he offered an EXPLANATION with backup provided (the prepared text -that had been given to the media in LA before the speech). Kerry spoke of his support for the military (and the proof is in his record)

- Much of the media agreed - stupid crack, no disrespect intended. People, not in Limbaugh's pocket, believed Kerry.

This was - in addition to Kerry's defense of Murphy and other vets - a sea change. The RW spin machine was NOT working.

This was far more the case than when Clinton wagged his finger in Wallace's face and looked like an out of control bully - especially when the provication did NOT justify the reaction.

The Clintons pushing the story forward risked that being seen - as if they didn't know that it is the wizard being seen as powerless that makes him so. That this followed the "HeyJohn" nonsense - which tried to do somewhat the same thing - rob Kerry of any credit for the 2 years of steady dependable effort he made - and transfer credit to Clinton - makes it more obvious that they were simply taking advantage of a Kerry misstep. with no regard to the impact on the party - if it were bad, Kerry would be blamed.

What I hope is that the NH activists saw enough of this - and that it will impact who they support in 2008. If Vilsack makes Iowa unimportant - NH will be the first state. I hope the affection and respect they have for Kerry will make them see this action as despicable.

I laid low on the Edwards flap - for Democrats the issue is not Wal Mart, but more likely the question of whether Edwards is genuine. This hurts him only because he is slick and redefines himself from time to time. People have some memory - and he was the most conservative man running in 2004 and the most pro-war, other than Lieberman. This is something people will read and see whether it means anything.

One often Hillary supporter didn't disagree with me that Hillary telling the New York Daily News that torture was ok if someone was thought to know of an imminent plot. McCain then was able to get to the side of being more against torture than she was - and that was the editorial. That{/b} to me is a bigger problem then a joke that has been explained to death, especially as she voted against outlawing cluster bombs. Think about Kerry's comment on the NEED for moral leadership to gain the trust of other countries.

I like that the Boston Herald made a point in their advise to Kerry of mentioning that he just got $18 million for veterans. That and speaking about Iraq - because he should and because he knows what he talking about will help.

I actually think we may have to at least temporarilly be less defensive - responding with Kerry strengths - of which there are many - but avoiding the less sillier arguments. Every candidate will have pitfalls - Bill Clinton had a ton of them in 1992 as did his wife. In 2004, Kerry had the fewest in the primaries. We've watched Kerry obsessively - he is NOT prone to saying dumb things.

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. Yeah, there's one really nasty thread in GDP though

I think we're talking about the same one. Several Kerry haters, and a few people I didn't expect, talking about how Kerry has no chance. Some of the bigger assholes spewing RW talking points about him. It's just pissing me off to no end. And most of the rest of the anti-Hillary people on DU still won't step up and defend Kerry. It's just all very disgusting to me.

[karynnj]

5. I'm just hoping as things move on - other things will

rise to the surface - and Kerry will be able to resurface with real issues.

[ProSense]

7. No matter what people say

about Hillary being the front runner, the person they all need to take a shot at to improve their own chance remains Kerry! I read where Hillary was now heading a sub committee on the environment, which would allow her to gain points for her run against McCain.

Think about it, Kerry is the only one with a proven record and deep knowledge on all the issues!

[politicasista]

6. Saw that one too n/t

[sandnsea]

8. I reminded about Vietnam Normalization

That it was a long process involving many, many people - didn't even name names - and got accused of not wanting to give Clinton credit for anything. Well, no, but it was a 13 year process and that should be recognized. Lots of people went to Vietnam and built relationships. Clinton wasn't just showered with love due to his mere presence, although his charisma and love of people certainly helps. I'm so tired of this image oriented country.

And did you see Bill Maher last night? Says he didn't even know who Steny Hoyer was. Well excuse me, but if you're job is politics and you don't know who Steny Hoyer is, then just sit down and shut the fuck up already.

[JI7]

9. the difference between Kerry and others

when Clintons are attacked every single Democrat gets out and defends them . there is no talk about how they should do this or that and how it will impact their future.

with Kerry(and this goes back to the campaign) you had asshole Democrats go on shows and rather than defend Kerry they would try to analyze how it might hurt Kerry and what Kerry should do.