MSNBC covered the Fox interview this morning

[karynnj]

Things may be somewhat bak to normal. They covered only the horse race question. The Democratic spokesperson - an african American I never saw before said the problem was that people don't think he ran a good race in 2004. The Republican said he had lots of liberal votes and was from Massachusetts and had the chutzpah of mentioning that he often sticks his foot in his mouth (which he does at no more than 1/1000 of the rate Bush does).

Just like before this - neither mentions his issues, character, or the fact that he was right on nearly every important issue. Oddly, later the Republican was saying that the Democratic possibilities were weak on national security. The Democrat answered weakly that you don't have to serve to have national security experience. (I agree on that - but come on and add the skills and experience needed - whether Hillary has it or not)

[Mass]

1. Where there consultants or just some sort of "strategists" who are just

pundits. When Brazile comes on TV, for example, she speaks for herself, and not in any capacity of spokeperson for the party.

It does not make a lot of sense at this point to have the DNC send spokepeople for these types of shows.

[karynnj]

3. I can't remember the precise word used

but I had never seen either the Democrat or the Republican. This was in their "news" coverage with a typically stunning vacant witch like person having a tough time even saying John Kerry without sneering. (She could easily be a grown up Mean Girl.)

[whometense]

5. Have you been reading all the blogs

about the Mean Girl thing? I was just working on a blog post on the subject last night. Digby and Orcinus have been all over it.

I still think the "liberal" Mean Girls, by whom I mean Maureen Dowd and Frank Rich, among others, did Kerry (AND Gore) more harm than anything the right wing propagandists could achieve on their own. Bieng knifed in the back by your "own side" is much more debilitating, and leads to cynicism and distancing from the process by people who might otherwise be highly engaged. They infuriate me. Joan Vennochi is a wannabe Mean Girl, but she's not a good enough writer (or thinker) to pull it off.

[Inuca]

6. Agree with your points, but

I have a tough time imagining Frank Rich as a girl, mean or otherwise :-)

[MBS]

7. boy, do I ever agree with you on all of this!

The other thing I'd add is a bit of a puzzlement as to why the Dem assessment seems to have hardened on the idea that JK "ran a poor race". Right after 2004, several people (I remember a Newsweek article) reported that the cw was that JK had run "a valiant race", and that he was more likely to be taken seriously as a voice in the Party than earlier "losing" Dem nominees.

This is just so STUPID, not to mention self-destructive, of the Dem MSM/party-operative crowd to behave like this.

[karynnj]

9. Yes and it's an excellent analogy

I agree that they did a huge amount to hurt both Gore and Kerry. They ignored all the serious things they said, then mocked them for being serious and doing their homework. They were more dismissive of Gore and nastier to Kerry.

My guess is they know if he chose, Kerry could have been a cool kid - and he rejected it - preferring to do what is right and having gravitas and integrity. None of which are valued by the cool kids. sanrk is more fun.

[whometense]

14. Another Mean Girl is

Matt Bai. From yesterday's NY Times Magazine: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19wwln_lede.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

...Then there is the 2008 presidential season, which began within hours of the election (Iowa’s Democratic governor, Tom Vilsack, jumped into the race before the week was out), and which will most likely act as a disincentive for either party to give ground on the issues that divide them. To a rare degree, the midterm elections appear to have indirectly reshaped the presidential landscapes of both parties. On the Republican side, two formerly top-tier candidates — George Allen, the Virginia senator who lost his seat, and Bill Frist, the soon-to-be-retired Senate leader who lost his majority — now seem irreparably damaged. The party’s presumed frontrunner, John McCain, also faces a more troublesome environment, given his strong support for a war that many of his moderate supporters clearly oppose. On the Democratic side, the elections dealt a blow to John Kerry — his mangled joke about Bush’s intellect would have been, even had he delivered it perfectly, inexcusably smug — while perhaps opening the door further for Al Gore, whose defiant, antiwar fervor would seem well suited to the moment...

Silent scream.

[sandnsea]

16. Defiant Al Gore will be slaughtered

If the right is salivating about anything, it's Al Gore running as condescending kindergarten teacher turned ranting street corner prophet of gloom.

This is all so incredibly ridiculous. And excuse me, but the Bill Clinton adoration society is getting on my last nerve. Yes people love him and yes he's a terrific spokesperson and brilliant thinker. But he's just so damned, non-committal. I agree with BLM, he should have been touting everything his administration did on al qaeda and buried the Republicans with their wag the dog bullshit. Here we are talking about a regional summit with UN participation, and Baker, - and that's exactly what JK recommended back in Dec of 2003. And HE is somehow not to be taken seriously???

Stupid fucking country, just stupid.

[whometense]

22. heh.

You took the words out of my mouth - Al Gore as condescending kindergarten teacher. Yeah. I'm a true blue liberal, and I cringe every time he opens his mouth.

Clinton's either a total opportunist with zero principles or such a tail-wagging puppy (like me! like me!) that he'll sell his soul for a pat on the head from the Bushes.

And don't get me started on Edwards.

I spent a good part of the 90's defending Bill's honor - now I just want to smack him upside the head. Kerry is the only one of this crew who acts like a grownup.

I think Wes Clark and Dean do too. I never thought I'd grow to be this impressed with Dean. I still don't think he's anything like presidential material, but he seems to have found his political calling. Clark is a serious person, though no politician. I still could see him as VP, though.

[ginnyinWI]

2. People don't see the invisible handicap that all Dems face.

And by that I mean the slanted media. So they blame the candidate in '04 because of it. It was never more clear to me yesterday watching Matthew's Sunday show, where they spotlighted McCain. Every fault he had was turned into a plus: he is "passionate", not angry. He is a maverick, not somebody whose Iraq policy goes counter to what everyone else thinks, and what the people want. "Strong and Wrong" is still seen as a plus!! I was thinking as I watched that if McCain were a Dem, they would be hooting amd mocking and laughing him out of existence. Instead it was a love-fest.

So whatever Kerry says or does will be looked at first with a lot of suspicion rather than uncritically. Besides being a Dem, he's not a new face that they can think up fresh copy on, so they have even more reason to want to see him gone. I don't know the answer--we'll have to wait and see. I still think JK has it in him to be a "Comeback Kerry", but it won't be easy. I guess it wasn't easy the last time, either!

[whometense]

4. Totally right.

Stephanie Miller this morning was asking why democrats aren't pushing McCain's ethics reprimand for the Keating scandal. He was actually rebuked, formally. Murtha was not reprimanded for ABSCAM, and yet it was all you heard about last week.

The dems need to get a LOT tougher about these issues. They don't need to lie - just get the facts out. It's unacceptable that McCain is allowed to keep that halo. Someone needs to knock it off his head so it stays off.

[karynnj]

8. I agree with all you said

The media has been a tiny bit tougher on McCain, but not much. Consider how many flip flops he's done this year -

I think Kerry's best chance is if people get fed up with lies, dishonesty and all these stupid games. Thinking of the Fox interview - Kerry, even in that setting dealing with something as obnoxious as this idiotic situation is KERRY. He sounds like he always does. This is a man who genuinely is how he is and is happy with that.

If people are looking for a genuine grown up seriously working on the real issues - then Kerry will be a very serious candidate.

[Island Blue]

17. Anyone who doubts that what you say is true should read

(among other things) "The Republican Noise Machine: Right-Wing Media and How It Corrupts Democracy" by David Brock and/or watch "Out Foxed". After hearing points of view like these you begin to wonder how Democrats (in general) ever receive ANY votes (because the media is so stacked against us). On the other hand, you wonder how just how well Democrats would do if today's media was indeed truly "fair and balanced". If I have a glimmer of hope left, its that the American people finally seem to be waking up (a bit) and not believing everything they are told.


The McCain Lovefest is way beyond my comprehension, and quite frankly makes me want to :puke: .

[wisteria]

23. There is such a thing as over hype. I think McCain may become a

victim of the media push.

[ginnyinWI]

18. Media Matters agrees with me on the McCain lovefest!

Check this out. http://mediamatters.org/items/200611200001

[sandnsea]

25. That's the key problem

That's why I get so angry with Bill Clinton and the contingency. They want the face of the party to be tough on defense, but he won't even defend the attacks on his own foreign policy and defense strategy. The country is horrified at Iraq, but the Clinton people won't let anybody put forward a new foreign policy. They blame the left instead, who annoy me too, but if the Clinton people see themselves as the leaders, well then just lead for chrissake. And stop using John McCain as a basis for anything, it only gives him credibility that he doesn't deserve and is only going to hurt us in 2008.

[ProSense]

10. From a RW blog:

More on Kerry ‘08

By Dr. Steven Taylor @ 8:34 am

Via the AP: Kerry: Botched Joke Won’t Affect 2008

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry insisted on Sunday his “botched joke” about President Bush’s Iraq policy would not undermine a possible White House campaign in 2008.

“Not in the least,” Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee in said when asked if the furor over his comment had caused him to reconsider a 2008 race. “The parlor game of who’s up, who’s down, today or tomorrow, if I listened to that stuff, I would never have won the nomination.”

Let me say this: Kerry is right about the joke itself and he is right about the “parlor game” to some degree. He did go into 2004 primary season as the front-runner, however, which he will not do in 2008. Yes, he lost that position and then regained it, so listening to the horse-race reporting would have been detrimental to him. However, this year he will start well behind Senator Clinton and, I would guess, behind several other potential candidates. I would wager that he would find the fund-raising more difficult in a relative sense this time as well.

In regards to the “joke”–certainly that will fade (indeed, it already has). However, the lesson of the joke is that Kerry isn’t a very good campaigner and is prone to making verbal gaffes which often come back and bite him. While the “joke” may not be the issue in an ‘08 run for the nomination, I can almost guarantee that something else will.

Link: http://

www.poliblogger.com/?p=11055


They knew this failed before the election. In fact, as Kerry said, it backfired. Check out the lessons! Prone? Sounds like some detractors here! Guarantee, huh?

[wisteria]

11. There claims that he is prone to gaffs ignores those made by others.

Hillary has uttered some questionable remarks, Biden too. I'm sure if we did some research other comments made by Democrats would surface. (Re:Rangle, my thought is he has made our party look stupid)
In other words, this is CW bullshit. This is the latest ploy to discredit him with. Never mind Bush is constantly given a free pass. The CW has it that Kerry can't make a flub at all. And you know why this is all ridiculous? Simply because it was an innocent omission of a word, twisted and distorted to mean something it was never meant to imply about the troops. How the pundits can continue to blame Kerry for being a victim in all of this shows how mindless they all really are.
Frankly, from this moment on, I refuse to take any of the phony fortune tellers seriously. I don't care if they don't want Kerry to run. To damn bad, Kerry will make that decision- not them.

[karynnj]

12. This is more accurate than a lot of other analyses

I doubt he's right on the fund raising though. Kerry has raised money for others - he should be able to raise money for himself. It also likely helps that, unlike others who need to develop a working email list - Kerry has one that he has used very well - for communication as well as fund raising.

As to echoing the meme of a bad campaign - that was already there and was repeated by most of the media - who did a lousy job in covering him. The media though may underestimate the popularity of the Come Back theme. Kerry is NOT a bad campaigner or he would never have won in 2004. If they hadn't done this - it wouldn't be news if he gets enthusiastic crowds - now it is. Blowing this myth up is in Kerry's hands.

[karynnj]

15. Very true -

In the 2004 primaries, it was Kerry who made very very few gaffes. I don't think there were many Edwards ones either - because he repeated verbetim the same speech day in day out.

The only Kerry ones I know were - the Grand Canyon, the 87 billion (which was said after he explained the combination of votes beautifully - and someone persisted.) and this one. Given that he was monitored as he spoke up to 16 hours a day - that's not bad.

I think Hillary made a gaffe when she let the NY Daily News push her to take a position where McCain can claim to be more anti- torture than she is. That loses a major strategic point if they compete. (While a Kerry/McCain match - will disclose the deceptive, sneaky and cynical compromise for what it was - "This bill allows torture." Can't get clearer than that.)

No one to the left of Russ Limbaugh really thinks Kerry isn't concerned for the troops.

[JI7]

27. Kerry did not go into 2004 as a front runner, that was Lieberman

[ProSense]

13. Interesting!

The GOP also has put together groups of its own with veterans out front and political operatives behind the scenes. A group called Vets for Freedom is running television advertisements against anti-war Democrat Ned Lamont in Connecticut, for example.

According to an investigative report published in the Buffalo News, Vets for Freedom was started by Taylor Goss, a former Bush spokesman who also managed the president's public relations during the recount of votes in Florida in the 2000 election. William Kristol, founder and editor of the rightwing Weekly Standard, and Republican strategist Dan Senor, a former spokesman for the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq, also are advisors.

The non-profit Center for Media and Democracy found links between Vets for Freedom and the public relations firm that created the Swift Boat ad campaign against Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry.

The research and advocacy group calls Vets for Freedom the "equivalent of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the Republican 527 committee whose attack advertisements in battleground states helped sink Kerry in the 2004 presidential race by smearing him as a phony war hero and a traitor to his country." Both campaigns have worked with the Republican-affiliated Donatelli PR firm but the group denies they have anything to do with the Republican Party.

Like Democrat Hackett, Vets for Freedom co-founder and former Marine Lieutenant Wade Zirkle denied any formal links to either party.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20061103/wl_oneworld/45361419051162591708

Wade Zerkle, executive director of Vets for Freedom, said the referendums are a publicity stunt, and the outcome will not represent the majority: "I don't think a ballot referendum in some of the most liberal cities in America is going to hold much water."

He said most Americans, even those with growing doubts about the war, know that leaving Iraq prematurely will create a terrorist haven that the U.S. will have to deal with.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-10-25-iraq-referendum_x.htm

(2) MARSHALL WITTMAN CUTS AND RUNS FROM THE BLOGOSPHERE. Over at Bull Moose Blog, Marshall Wittman says he's leaving behind blogging for an indeterminate period. After congratulating himself for a "good run," Wittman somewhat predictably repeats one of his stock fictions one last time, describing Joe Lieberman's reelection as a "historic and monumental victory for the vital center."

http://www.prospect.org/horsesmouth/2006/11/post_426.html

Bullmoose also has a link to Vets for Freedom on his site!

These are some of the people determined to derail any attempt to withdraw from Iraq.

[Firespirit]

19. Tucker Carlson had Joe Trippi on his show today to discuss JK

He showed some clips from the Fox interview, where JK says "let the voters decide" and also where he says he hasn't ruled out running. He started off with his usual nasty script and called it "Democrats' worst nightmare."

Trippi smacked him down. Said that actually, Democrats in general were not afraid of a Kerry run. He said that in a Hillary-Obama race, Kerry had lots of big ideas to offer and a lot to bring to the table, and he has as good a chance as anyone of getting it. He then said, "this man has come back from the dead before, and no one knows that better than me."

He ceded NO ground to "F*cker" Carlson whatsoever and was very defensive of Kerry and his '08 prospects. Emphasized IDEAS as Kerry's strongest point. Very good overall. I was pleased.

[Democrafty]

20. That's great.

Thanks for the info!

[ginnyinWI]

21. nice!

I've heard Trippi say good things about JK before. He tells it like it is, and does not worship at the feet of the Clintons. The pundit class is clueless as to what we out in real American are thinking.

[wisteria]

24. That is wonderful to hear.

Tucker Carlson is like the know it all nerd in school who tried to be just like the popular people, but could never pull it off.

[ProSense]

26. President Newt?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2981102&mesg_id=2981102