I just don't get it

[LittleClarkie]

Dean says almost exactly what Kerry was saying about approaching the pro-life voters and being inclusive. And yet Kerry was selling out, but Dean was "reframing."

Kerry is DLC, and so is Dean. And yet Kerry gets blasted for the connection and Dean does not.

Kerry is to Republican lite to some; and yet Dean's record is mostly conservative. But that's okay, because they love his style.

Edwards is not involving himself in the fraud investigation and Kerry is. And yet Edwards is relatively unscathed, and Kerry simply can't do enough without coming out like a knight in shining armor. And even then I'm convinced it wouldn't be enough. "You should have come in on a white horse. Sorry, too little too late."

Not to pick out individual canidates; these are just examples.

Kerry's to blame for the "loss," not the media, or the ABB voters who didn't like him, or groups that perhaps were too far to the left and hurt more than they helped (I'm not sure that's fair to say of MoveOn or not.)

He's the anti-teflon guy. Everything sticks. Blame magnet.

The Rodney Dangerfield of politics.

[JohnKleeb]

1. Thanks

Its all about rhetoric to some people really, and I can tell you as a one time Kucinich supporter one of the most biggest paradoxes of the 2004 Democratic Primaries, Kerry to many people won the primaries because he ran as the electable candidiate, and people complain about that mainly from camps like Dean and Clark, yet I remember in the primaries many of these same people said they were supporting either of those two because though they agreed with Kucinich and liked him more, they found him unelectable so they supported those two.

[New Earth]

2. wtf is with all these posters coming into election 2004

right now, just to spew anti-kerry?

[seito]

3. lol

Anti Teflon. We can call him the Velcro President :)

I have no idea. The only thing I can think of is these people have to blame someone. Dean never would have lost, Dean never would have conceded, Clark would have pulled the south. lalalalalalala

Thankfully DU does not represent the majority of the Democratic party. I look forward to the coming months. I just know that Kerry has some big things up his sleeves.

I just hope it is sooner rather than later. I will take later if it includes an indictment for * & co for crimes against humanity.

By the way, Kerrycrats, I need a :grouphug: it has been a personally trying day.

You all rock. I just have to say it feels so good to be among such wonderful people. :yourock: Hopefully this upcoming week will bring us some good news. If you recall Kerry's horoscope, things were supposed to turn up for him after Dec 20, and I guess that goes for all of us Dec babies.

Good Night.

No Retreat No Surrender

[vinessa4freedom]

4. Consider yourself hugged

:hug:

And you all say it so much better than I do. Even the people I know who immediately after the election were yelling "fraud!" seem to now be slinking away with very little to say. It's eerie-like something got into their water supply and they are becoming accepting. Have aliens invaded and we're the only ones left? OK- the tinfoil hat is on securely today, but...

[ginnyinWI]

5. I'm still on the fraud bandwagon

I think I will always remain convinced that the votes were rigged. I need look no further than those exit polls--the tabulated votes were just too far beyond the margin of error. I hope all is exposed sooner or later.

Some days I get so discouraged though, that I just read posts but don't reply. Yesterday I was like that, and today I feel better. Up and down, up and down.

[LittleClarkie]

27. I know. How can we use the exit polls in the Ukraine as fraud evidence

there but not as fraud evidence here.

Even so, I just don't think Americans will do what the Ukrainians did. I just can't picture suddenly flipping the election and having all go well. It would be civil war, I think, unless popular opinion went so far against George Bush that people would be relieved to find he wasn't really the president. I don't think enough people are disgusted with him. Most aren't even that awake to what's going on. "He's doing a pretty good job, isn't he?" I'd hear around these parts way too often. (But then I live in a Red county.)

I wish I wasn't so awake some days. It wouldn't hurt so much then to think of what might have been. Or to think of the people who stood in line for 8 hours.

And I really don't want to see John Kerry go and impale himself on public opinion. Selfish of me, maybe. Just seems like a crazy idea. I don't understand why so many call for it. It seems too unrealistic. I don't think it makes him a coward for conceeding. I can't get my head wrapped around the idea of him leading a election fraud investigation in the middle of the media circus that would have ensued.

Do the un-concession people really want a civil war?

Personally, I think the Republicans would have found a way to close the election without waiting for a concession. I don't know how that works legally. Does Kerry HAVE to conceed or the election's not over. Or can they skip over that and just proceed to certify the thing without him?

And unlike those who see an elitist politician who doesn't give a damn, I think Kerry will be around regardless, fighting.

But as you say, it's the exit polls, stupid. If the exit polls were correct, Kerry was winning by an electoral landslide. That means, if they stole the election, they stole a landslide. Even Republicans who hold up Kennedy/Nixon as some sort of tit for tat justification can't claim Kennedy stole 1960 by that much (actually I think Johnson had more to do with it ... damn Texas politicians). If true, this wasn't penny ante, this was grand theft auto.

Poor Kerry. I wonder if he truly feels in his gut that it was stolen too. How angry is he I wonder.

At some point, I think it will come out what happened. Will be interesting to see what happens then.

[seito]

7. Thanks

:hug:

I am still convinced that fraud occurred, but I think it will take time for all of the evidence to surface.

[vinessa4freedom]

23. me too

I think the evidence (at least a lot of it) is out there to see. And hear, from the people who had problems with the machines. Have faith. We'll reach critical mass and come out on top. I have to believe that. Mandate? Maybe we'll call this one "Man-Gate" when it all comes out. :)

[JI7]

6. you need to stop trying to reason with them

just ignore them. giving them attention just makes it worse.

[sandnsea]

8. I've tried for over a year!

Howard Dean made me mad way back in summer 2003 when he went after the Democrats on the war instead of just Bush. Don't even get me started on Biden/Luger. It just seemed to me that there was no way to hold Bush accountable without the help of the Democrats in the house and senate. So why would you skewer them? How would you expect them to come out against Bush when you were saying they were just like Bush? They helped the right make the case that Bush got bad info, just like Congress. We could have made a case that Bush and the rest of them lied to Congress. But nooooo.... I am still furious about that.

What really scares me the most though, is this loyalty to personality thing. Where is that coming from in this country? I love John Kerry, and Teresa; but damn. I was the first to say that when he got into the White House, (oh I always said when), I would be the first to be camping on the mall if he didn't do what needed to be done. I knew he would need a little kick in the pants to get our trade agreements right. I believe he wants them right, but we have to make our voices as loud as the corporate voices. But with Dean, geez, he just pops up as anti-NAFTA one day, and these Deanie's don't even question his conversion. It seems a bit to much like the Bushbots to me, and that scares me more than anything. Any time a personality becomes more important than principles, that's trouble. What does it mean, if anything?

[ginnyinWI]

9. personality cults are easier

It's easier to latch onto a candidate who makes you feel good than to actually listen to the issues and that candidates proposals for change, so people do it.
Just look at all the people * got to vote for him on the basis of his personality--he sure doesn't have anything else going for him! Some of his supporters are just fanatical about him. (I can't understand this at all--I always get a feeling of revulsion and nausea when I see him!)

[sandnsea]

10. How'd this happen?

I honestly just don't remember anybody being this wild for political personalities before. Well maybe the Kennedys, but their personal convictions were a large part of it. FDR, he earned people's respect. Even Reagan. I didn't like his policies, but I never sensed complete willingness to ignore any bad thing he did. What the heck is going on with Bush & Dean??? That's what has me baffled. They've done nothing to earn anybody's respect. It's just weird.

[seito]

12. I can't even see personality going for him

But, maybe I am biased lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually try to analyze my own bias. I think the right has been masterful in playing on a very narrow range of core values and fear.

They make average people think that liberals are amoral, that we want to take away their bible and turn this country into a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah (sp) For God's sake, they want to let people burn the flag and take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. They will put an abortion clinic on every corner and pornography on the TV and they will give the criminals and terrorists the key to your front door. They are going to take away your guns and they are more interested in protecting the rights of criminals than victims etc..........

People buy it. They are not willing to think, and they hear it enough times. :nuke: Boom, they are sold. How do they come back from the dark side? Tragedy hits them personally. They lose their job, they lose a child in Iraq, their spouse gets sick and can't afford the hospital bills, they lose their house etc. Suddenly, the lie becomes more obvious and insidious.

Personality somehow is not so important in the wake of personal crisis. I think Jon Stewart said it best. Something along these lines...I don't want a president that is like me, one that I would invite over for a beer, I want a President that is much smarter than I am, one that will keep my country safe.

sigh..I think that America will wake up, I am just sad at what it will take to complete the Awakening.

No Retreat No Surrender

[sandnsea]

13. My son said

"I don't understand this President like me stuff. Do these people think they're qualified to be President? I want a President who is more than I am, who makes me aspire to be better than I ever thought I could be." That was during the primaries, he was 17, and Kerry all the way. It was a very proud mama day!

[JI7]

15. one problem i had was

that many democrats rather than say that Kerry was a statesman or had the ability to understand complex issues they would just go along with the right wing talking points and say how kerry was elitist and not a regular guy like bush.

too many times i saw them just repeat right wing talking points. the republicans talk about bush being a guy you want to have a beer with. instead of responding with "kerry is the guy that would save our country" or something else they would just start criticizing kerry for things like snowboarding windsurfing etc.

the same with the nuance thing. instead of saying kerry understands complex issues they would start attacking kerry for not being like bush and see things in black/white.

we hsould have been the ones to say that issues of war are not black/white issues. they require someone who can understand complexity in order for us to succeed.

the worse part is that bush is anything but a regular guy. but the democrats just go along and continue to.

[sandnsea]

17. Cripes, *I've* been windsurfing!!

Out here in the west, all of that stuff is typical outdoor activity anyway. I windsurfed 20 years ago, IN MONTANA! I never could figure out exactly who had a problem with snowboarding or windsurfing. But it did get traction and I think more from lily-livered Democrats, you know the ones with so much backbone??? Ach. I can't think about it, I get too angry.

[Withywindle]

20. i don't get that either --

People do it here on Lake Michigan. Middle-class people. Ya rent the stuff. It's not that big a deal.


That "regular guy" facade of *: I don't get it. His family background is richer than Kerry's, he went to Yale too, he bought that "ranch" as a stage prop in '99, and he's afraid of horses! Some cowboy. He's a complete phony, and KERRY is the one who gets stuck with a poser tag? There is no earthly reason for any DEMOCRAT to buy that shit for one second, unless they watch too much cable commentary (They put subliminal hypnosis tricks in there, I know it).

Don't even get me started on that "wanna have a beer with him" thing. It's no secret that the only reason I'd ever wanna have a beer with * is if I thought I could get away with peeing in it when he wasn't looking. But then, I grew up around good ol' boys and I can spot a fake one. I can also (usually) tell the difference between a real decent good ol' boy with a good heart even if he's not real book-smart and likes to raise a little hell, and an out-for-himself, ego-maniacal, bigoted, ignorant, dog-shootin', date-rapin' redneck who steals money out of his mama's purse, and guess which type he seems more like to me.

But * has a real sort of satanic charisma to people who are drawn to that sort of thing and want a "strong leader" (and that phrase just sends chills up my spine now). We "misunderestimate" it at our own peril--and Kerry-bashers still do, the "ham sandwich" theory.

I think we ran the best candidate we had. Kerry's very smart, very experienced in almost every aspect of law and government, compassionate, principled, well-spoken, diplomatic, handsome, stable...what the hell more could you ask? Where are you going find more of a mensch? But between election fraud, fear-mongering, and appeals to every conceivable form of bigotry, xenophobia, ignorance, fear of change, and buried longings for U.S. World Supremacy...we got the worst of all possible worlds.

It should never have gotten to this point. Kerry should be gearing up for his '08 run--after Al Gore's second term.

[ginnyinWI]

22. you got it

Kerry is the best candidate we have. He is the type you'd want--he puts up with politics for the sake of policy--wanting to make a difference. The only reason he went into public life.

I've heard that * loves politics, and puts up with actually having to be president just for the power it gives him. He's a pretty good actor, doing that "aw-shucks" bit, but we know he's an elitist.

[seito]

26. You mean Chicken Hawk in Chief lol!!!!!

Little AWOL playing dress up out on the ranch with his phony Souther Drawl. Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!

:evilgrin: Satanic is right. A strong power guides little shrub, and I hate to break it to all them Evangelistic Christians, but it ain't their God.

I still have faith in John Kerry. This is not the first run in he has had with the BFEE. I just do not see him backing down. If I was little shrub, I would be just the tiniest bit nervous right about now.

Let me pull out my crystal ball. Hmmmm......a very large boot making contact with a tight little butt in the vicinity of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. And I hear a commanding voice. Get the _______ out of MY HOUSE.

See ya :hi:

No Retreat No Surrender

[Der Blaue Engel]

32. ROTFL!

"It's no secret that the only reason I'd ever wanna have a beer with * is if I thought I could get away with peeing in it when he wasn't looking."

I nearly did a spit take when I read this! :D

I never understood that lame beer argument, either. When I saw Kerry on the Daily Show he seemed very much like someone I'd want to have a beer with. Maybe the difference is that I wouldn't have a beer with a nasty little frat-boy doing beer bongs. I'd have a beer with someone who could talk articulately while drinking it, and appreciate the nuances of a beer with a musky nose and a smooth finish.

Blaue

[ginnyinWI]

21. Kerry may have been elitist when he graduated from Yale,

I'm not sure, but that all changed when he served in the Navy. He came back much more aware of the country and its needs. What we needed then was an end to the Vietnam war, and Kerry did not turn his back on it. He could have just retreated, but felt a duty to do something. That's not elitist. That's a different type, someone who believes in "noblesse oblige" like the Kennedys and others do. But during the campaign they turned it inside out.

It was Bush they should have called "elitist". He fits the definition to a "T".

[seito]

16. Don't you just have so much hope because of the youth?

This generation will carry the lamp of liberty for all of the people with their heads stuck in the sand.

[ginnyinWI]

18. I think the media has a lot to do with it

We didn't used to have 24-hour cable news channels, where politicians could get a lot of exposure along with hype. Not only direct coverage, but endless people willing to go on the air and blah, blah blah about this or that person. I didn't watch FOX, but I used to watch Chris Matthews, and he's nothing more than a big gossip. I stopped watching when I realized that he's only out for himself and his show. And they are all like this to some degree.

These days, for me, it is the Internet for news, and Keith Olberman and Jon Stewart for TV "info-tainment", Charlie Rose and "NOW" on PBS, Meet the Press on Sundays, and CSPAN.

[seito]

11. I think people are too lazy to think

They fall in love with the package, and don't bather to look at what is inside. There is no perfect candidate. What I like about John Kerry is he seems to be motivated by the greater good. He has changed position on issues. That is what thinking people do. As you learn more, and situations change, your position must also change.

I will tell you one thing. I have always had my core values, but like much of America, something changed on Nov 3rd. I woke up and I asked myself "Where is my America" That day I became an activist. I know I am not alone. The days of 98% incumbency rates are over. We are going to demand accountability from the members of congress.

:shrug:

I just don't know. The enemy is so blatantly obvious, but I guess it is more dramatic to publicly roast our own. I must say this, anyone that takes * or anyone in his newly revamped cabinet at their word is a fool or a lier.

[sandnsea]

14. Oh I know

I was just despondent and felt just like that. I have no country. And so many people we talked to in the days after, they hadn't left the house or spoken to anybody. Then I started thinking about myself as a world citizen and realized there's still more of us than there are of them. I'm not a church-goer at all, but I remember something in the Bible. About lukewarm faith. I think real evil needs real power to rise up against it. It's not enough to dodge a bullet, we're going to have to get strong and take the evil down.

[seito]

25. I was listening to AAR today

I think it was Hartmen. He read a page out of mein kampf (sp). For every instance of Jew he substituted liberal and for every instance of Germany he subtituted America. It was tulry Eerie.

I would say that is most certainly does take a strong force of good to combat evil. I have NEVER felt this compelled to get involved, and I think there is a reason for that. This is our "call to arms." We must stop this infection that has taken over this nation.

[ginnyinWI]

19. it seems like the media is getting more negative toward *

Just this month, they have kept this Rumsfeld story going on and on, when I would have thought it would be over by now. And Repub. members of Congress piling on--good!

You reminded me of another frustration I've had with our system of electing presidents. The candidate has to be such a media person--know how to look and act well on tv, and speak in short sound bites, and smile enough, and not flub it up even once or be roasted by all the pundits, that it is a wonder that anyone wants to even try. And you have a man like John Kerry, who, although he is no stranger to the media and does well with it (what does he not do well??? lol), anyway--but his BEST talents can't be "shown" on tv mostly, because they are his intellectual ability, his analytical skills, his diplomatic skills, and things like that. The only times he could were during the debates (and he did so well that it surprised many--it was his first real chance to show himself). People who don't watch Cspan missed all of those wonderful policy speeches and interviews, and only got little soundbites or lame interviews from Larry King or Chris Matthews.

The people are lazy, and would rather decide based on a candidate who is packaged by the media rather than dig down and find out what they really stand for. And the media is also to blame for giving the people only what feels good, and not encouraging a real discussion.

[seito]

24. It is our "Hollywood" mentality

I guess we are an ADD nation. if you can't get the message out in 3 minutes, forget it. That will change though.

Little Chimp's arrogance will only contribute to his downfall. He thinks he has a Man Date LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think reality will be hitting little man sooner rather than later. When the fortress of cards start to fall, all the loyalty oaths in the world won't be worth the TP he uses to wipe hi *ss. Watch the rats scatter.

Keep the Faith Kerrycrats

No Retreat No Surrender.

[ginnyinWI]

28. his press conference bombed

if the commentary I heard on NPR is any indication. Seems many journalists can barely hide their disgust.

His approval rating is down to 48%. I think a lot of people who voted for him just reacted out of fear, and now think better of it. My dad has not called me up to gloat over the election--and he sure was loud about it during the campaign. Now, it's like they didn't want him, either, but since they were in the "club" (Republican) and were pumped up by the latest blurb on Fox or Limbaugh, they voted for him.
I still remember my mom: "I'd really like to see what Kerry would do. But I could never vote for him." (because he is pro-choice and she is a born-again christian)

The bright side of all of this is that we can see him get what's coming to him. Cold comfort, I know.

:eyes:

[seito]

29. Buyers Remorse

:eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

30. Even the local conservative guy was not happy

He kept repeating how Rummy should have signed the letters. It's on a few a week, and not to do so was bad form.

I think, despite what Bush said, Rummy is soon to be history.

[seito]

31. Rummy is just more weight on the

anchor tied around the little shrubs feet. He is going down. The longer he hangs onto Rummy the quicker he will sink.

Kerry On Kerrycrats

No Retreat No Surrender

[ginnyinWI]

33. LOL, here's what my husband said about Rummy

I told him that Bush had declared that Rummy is a good man, and he said, "Ok that's it--he's going for sure, now!"

The fact that Bush needs to go to those lengths to try to save him is very telling. And his record on "looking into his eyes" and "knowing he's a good man" is rather shaky--think of what he said about Putin, the electon fraud king.