Venting place to hide from the Deaniacs!

[saracat]

I need to escape. Defending Kerry is now a full time job on the Board.The hate being spewed is unbelievable! And most of it is from Deaniacs. I wonder if the good doctor realizes how vicious these people are? Even the disruptors are attacking Kerry!

[GRLMGC]

1. What's hilarious

is that Dean himself has said that he despises "ideologues" and guess what his supporters are?

[Forever Free]

2. We're doing a pretty good job of tearing ourselves down

With Democrats like these, who needs Republicans?

[saracat]

3. No kidding. This is the most vicious thing I have ever seen.

I don't dislike Dean, but I felt Kerry was the more liberal of the two, as well as more presidential, but these people could make me dislike Dean. This is a real shame because when I was doing interviews for the primary Dean was one (as well as Kerry and Mosley Braun ) who always remembered me by name! And that takes effort with the thousands of people that were shoved in their face. At one point I was tempted to support Dean because I liked his campaign so much, but I researched him and didn't like some things he had done and I always leaned toward Kerry. I have liked this man for years.

[sandnsea]

12. Dean lost me

He lost me when he did his little fliparoo on the war vote in order to be the anti-war candidate. I know full well what he meant when he was saying we needed to get inspectors into Iraq, by force if necessary. Kerry was the one who specifically said "imminent threat" only, following Clark's lead. If you read Clark's entire statement to Congress, he supported an IWR type process as well. Not war, but a process to get inspectors into Iraq and make sure the country was disarmed. When Dean chose to go after the Democrats in the primaries instead of keeping the focus dead on Bush, I dumped him as a possibility and never looked back. When I found out about his policies in Vermont and other things he supported, it only confirmed my position. You can't go around ranting about Clinton's centrist policies and ignore the fact that Howard Dean was right beside him and often more to the right than he was. Certainly more to the right than Kerry was. Dumbasses want the party to move left and don't even recognize the candidate to do that is right in front of them.

[saracat]

18. Absolutely right on the money.Thank you.

I must not be losing it. This is what I remember!

[LittleClarkie]

23. Where can I find references to this

I'd like to read them.

Why that dirty rat.

That's why it pissed me off when the NYT did their story about Dems re-examining their position on abortion, and said that Kerry was perceived as being unconcerned with the issue. How is that, when he identified himself as pro-life personally, and has said much the same as Dean has on the issue. And yet Kerry is the problem and people like Dean and Brazille are the solution.

Riiiight. I got so upset over the weekend after seeing that article and thinking about Kerry being scapegoated for the loss.

How much of a pipe dream is it to think that he has a chance in 2008. I want him to, and I don't think I'm alone, but really, were his chances ruined by the loss this time, legit or not? God, I hope not. The thought makes me want to cry.

I sometimes wonder why people don't see what we see in Kerry. What's missing. Is he not "flash" enough? Are people too lazy to check him out properly. Are they looking for the elusive "perfect" candidate?

Damn, damn, damn.

[sandnsea]

27. Statements from 9/02

http://www.house.gov/hasc/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

It goes on, and it's worth reading the whole thing. He isn't supporting immediate, unilateral war, just like Kerry wasn't supporting war. It was a process and if it had been followed, we wouldn't be at war. Same as with Kerry.

"The critical issue facing the Unites States now is how to force action against Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs without detracting from our focus on Al Qaeda or efforts to deal with other immediate, mid and long-term security problems. In this regard, I would offer the following considerations:

- The United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be further strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing US determination to act if the United Nations will not. The use of force must remain a US option under active consideration. The resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force, but simply agree on the intent to authorize the use of force, if other measures fail. The more focused the resolution on Iraq and the problem of weapons of mass destruction, the greater its utility in the United Nations. The more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its impact in the diplomatic efforts underway."

Howard Dean

Clearly he thought exactly what Kerry thought, when you read the whole interview. He was not anti-war from the start, he did not just dismiss the idea that Saddam had WMD or was a threat. Considering this statement, he was more pro-war than Kerry ever dreamed of being. In addition, there's other statements where he supported Biden/Lugar which was almost the same as the IWR that passed. That's been "debated" ad nauseum with Deaniacs too.

"Look, it's very simple. Here's what we ought to have done. We should have gone to the U.N. Security Council. We should have asked for a resolution to allow the inspectors back in with no pre-conditions. And then we should have given them a deadline saying "If you don't do this, say, within 60 days, we will reserve our right as Americans to defend ourselves and we will go into Iraq."

"I'm taking Saddam Hussein a little more seriously today than I was two days ago when he began to -- when he, at that time, was not saying what he said yesterday. Today he's very clearly looking like he's going to resist a return of the inspectors. That is not acceptable. He has got to allow the inspectors in, and if he doesn't, then we will be in the position of having to intervene."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/main523726.shtml

[LittleClarkie]

28. We've watched Kerry and Dean say the same thing before

on different issues.

Somehow Dean always gets credit for "framing" it better, or saying it clearer, or having more attitude. Uh, it's like high school. And I'm in love with the debate geek. Meanwhile the showboaty popular guy is getting all the accolades.

[saracat]

29. Good example! Giggle! I never bought the "ant iwar " candidate theme.

He supported exactly the same measures as Kerry. Kerry was too "nice" . He should have called him on it! When I get pissed about certain points of view, I am mad at both of them! Recently ,I have not been thrilled with the softening of the stance on abortion.I don't like what either of them said. They more or less said the same thing.I can admit Kerry said it but somehow Dean saying it doesn't "mean" the same thing. Gag. Dean is whatever they want him to be, through no fault of his own, I don't think. They jus deny anything they don't choose to believe. If they don't agree, he didn't "mean" it! What is up with that, as Seinfeld used to say? Is this create a candidate?

[GRLMGC]

30. So true

Man, delusions are unhealthy. Dean is what he is. The fact that the "Deaniacs" have to change him into whatever they want him to be is very telling. He's not what they make him out to be so they have to make him into the Saint of Progressives and denigrate everyone else who shares opinions w/ Dean. What the hell?

[LittleClarkie]

31. The only thing he is that they didn't have to create is LOUD

They wanted a loud candidate who wasn't afraid to attack. Sadly, he's best at attacking other Dems.

He's the Democratic candidate for those who don't like the Democratic Party. Eh, so go be a Green, then.

So this is why he was "Waffle Powered Howard." I get it now.

[GRLMGC]

32. Man, I don't even dislike him

I even supported him in the primaries. It's just that some his more psychotic and louder supporters are such a turnoff. I wonder how his more levelheaded supporters feel about them.

[LittleClarkie]

35. Hell, the pictures of Dean and Kerry together were enough for me

They appear to like each other. Sincere smiles on both faces.

Yeah, Dean's alright. Just not my guy.

His supporters on the other hand...

[sandnsea]

36. The real Howard is fine

The nutball he turns into to appeal to his supporters, I can do without.

[Pirate Smile]

56. I'm the same as you. I supported Dean in the caucuses but

jumped full bore onto the Kerry bandwagon afterward.

I like both and think we need both as strong leaders for the party. I hate the BS threads that so and so would have won - Bullsh#$!

I was very glad Dean didn't put JK down at all when he was on the MTP.

It pisses me off when the Dean supporters are so over the top that they alienate people.

I feel loyalty to both and just avoid those nasty fights. It is so counterproductive.

[saracat]

33. "wafflepowered Howard" ? Really ? OMG! ROTFL!

I have never heard that one! Hilarious!

[LittleClarkie]

34. When the Deaniacs threw flip flops at Kerry

The Kerryites threw waffles at Dean.

I've heard about it as primary shenanigans.

[bush_is_wacko]

45. Actually the comparison would be closer to something the Bushites

claim, I think, Dean appears to be a "regular guy" and the people who didn't do their research on Kerry think he is an elitist. You know I remember reading that he questioned his marriage to Teresa because he was afraid as being viewed that way. I don't think at this point there are many Dems or others out there that can be swayed by anything less than that Kerry magic we all know exists in him as a prosecutor. If he comes through with the goods on Bush, they will all kneel down and pray to him. I know he's capable, but I also wonder IF he can do it again.

[Der Blaue Engel]

4. I'm having to sit on my hands

not to go screaming into Election 04 on a metaphorical shooting spree. What is WRONG with everybody? I'm even getting fed up with Will's messianic parables. What the hell happened to DISCUSSION?

Alternately, I'm tempted to shoot MYSELF just to make the "voices" stop. (Luckily, I don't even own a metaphorical gun.)

:crazy:

Blaue

[saracat]

5. I just finished a self defense to Elorial about my defense of Kerry.

My, she absolutely hates him! Another long time Duer backed her up. I just asked the mods how far can people go with this bashing.They said there were limits. I asked what they are. People seem rapid, but I wouldn't want censorship either. It is truly scary out there!

[GRLMGC]

6. Nah, there are no limits to Kerry bashing

I've seen some pretty nasty and idiotic stuff out there.

[JohnKleeb]

7. ain't that the truth

Yet if you go after the more popular former candidiates here, you get flamed. I had me a habit and i still do of defending good democrats like Kerry who get a bad deal from people, I also have defended Gephardt in the past as well.

[sandnsea]

10. Eloriel, lol

I stopped debating with her way last year. Had her on ignore for a long time. What makes me so angry is the lack of logic. They framed the election problems as fraud right out of the gate. There's still no evidence and I don't understand why they can't see that. What is John Kerry supposed to say exactly. They stole it but I can't prove anything, I just know it in my gut. It's stupid. Conyers isn't even calling it fraud or theft. If they had just been fact based, pointing to the machine errors, tabulating errors, long lines, ballot counting rules - all over the country - we'd be alot further along by now. They do this with absolutely everything, go off on tangents that piss people off or are unprovable, then wonder why Democratic leadership won't get behind them. Hell that's why Howard Dean lost and they still can't see their own ranting is what caused it. There's ways to stay true to our party's beliefs, but you can't get there by offending 80% of the country in the process.

[saracat]

13. Well, oddly enough, I do beleive that there was fraud, and I do believe

it can be proven. I am not technical enough to cite the examples but I think the proof is there. That being said I also believe there are some crackpot frauds out to discredit us. What interests me is that I am probably to the left of many of these people who are bashing Kerry. I KNOW I am to the left of Dean. I point out continuously that he was voted the fifth most conservative governor in the nation by the Governor's Conference! I also point out he is as much DLC as Kerry possibly more. They just won't accept even the reality of their candidate. They support someone who didn't exist, except in their minds! And I probably have more contempt for the DLC than they do. I am not a centrist. I despise centrism. I am working very hard to take the party left. I will not be concilitory to the repukes. You would think they might agree with me on some points, but NOOO.They just keep shoving their fictional candidate out there as the panacea to the world's problems. I just don't get it. I think it is almost funny that the candidate they dis is the most liberal of the two men. Go figure. AND they make a big thing about "proving " that Dean is currently DLC.Well, they can't prove Kerry is either!:)

[sandnsea]

15. Depends on the fraud

If we'd laid out a nice little case regarding machine placement, lines, irregular provisional ballot counting, etc.; we might have had a case for fraud. But nothing that could point to Bush, unless we could have subpoenaed Blackwell's emails or something. Now that we've got the Triad tech and recount cheat sheets, that could have really added to that narrow case.

But the machine hacking, we've got no evidence there and that's where they started. The statistical analysis stuff proving machine hacking and a stolen election. It was a stupid approach. We should have started with just the glitches all over the country and built that part of the case from there. To get better elections in the future, not claim fraud in this election.

Now, I'm afraid, we're going to have nothing because every time these same people try to get changes made in the future, the Republicans can just point to the 300 votes in Ohio and laugh. It's all been thrown into together, the waters have been muddied, and I don't know if we'll ever get things clear enough in people's minds to get them behind the changes that have got to happen. I am seriously very frustrated by the whole thing.

[saracat]

16. Me too. But if this impoundment of the machines holds up and we are able

to look at the guts, who knows?(I say " we," LOL!( like I would even know what to look for!) Who knows what they are actually looking at? I don't. I wouldn't want to know yet either. Why should the other side be let in on the strategy? A very credible lawyer, who has dealt in these matters, informs me that something else is probably happening! I hope they are right!:)

[sandnsea]

20. Glitchgate

I counted 21 machine glitches, not even the vote switching, just vote recording and counting glitches. Nationwide. I've seen more since I did the count. The machine we had to send to Canada. Several elections overturned. I think we could have gotten machines impounded alot faster, with more support, if we would have made a huge stink about all of these machine errors instead of going the election theft route. I hate the idea that we've got proprietary code and machines running our elections and most people don't even know what that means. If any of this manages to get sorted out of the Ohio cases and become the real issues they should be, I will eat my shoes. I honestly believe if people would just shut up about fraud and stolen elections, John Kerry would be screaming election reform from the rooftops. He did write Kerry-Wellstone, he did introduce election holidays, he does care about fair elections.

[saracat]

21. But isn't the tampering of the proprietory code an issue?

Or ,at the very least, the possibility of it????I agree maybe we would have made more progress going that direction, but why can't it still be done?

[sandnsea]

24. Election reform

I think it can still be done. But I think if Republicans really are involved in code tampering, we just made it alot easier for them to laugh us out of the park. I also think it doesn't matter whether code tampering was done in this election, the potential for tampering is there and that's why we shouldn't have proprietary code at all. That fact seems to be getting lost in proving fraud right now. If we can't prove fraud right now after saying we're sure fraud exists, that makes it all the easier for them to say everything is good with these damned machines. Seems to me. It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf scenario. We're crying wolf all over the place now, what happens when we can't prove anything? Nobody will listen to us. That's what I'm afraid of.

[saracat]

25. Very good point. Which is one reason I have been glad for KE caution.

Though it is frustrating because most of us want action NOW! And who knows, it may be sooner than later. I just wish people would admit they don't KNOW, and stop with thinking they KNOW all the answers! All this will eventually come out in the wash. I am hoping it is before Jan. 20th but if not, there is nothing to be done except move forward, in whatever direction is best for one to take. I am making NO decisions for a bit. I am in wait and see mode.

[New Earth]

37. hahhaha i've had her on ignore for a while now

i think i took her off this weekend for something, i forget what for. wont' be long till she's back on. it's ashame b/c other than when it comes to Kerry, she's usually pretty cool.

[saracat]

38. That was what I thought too, Faye. That is why I told he I expected

better of her!

[angrydemocrat]

57. I have had it out with Elorial many times.....

She is as bad as Testy. Neither one know there ass from a whole in the ground when it comes to Kerry. That has been proven many times. Both of them are nerve racking as hell! But after I get my point across then I'm real good at pissing them off. I done such a good job at that a few times they leave the thread I'm in. There is to things that make both of them madder than hell. 1) when they make there totally outrages remarks or there nasty remarks about Kerry, I tell them "That is their opinion. And opinions are like assholes everybody has one. So go blow your hot air where people believe it because as can you see no one believes your shit around here! 2) After that every time they post all I do is write WHAAA WHAAA :cry: :cry: and trust me it pisses both of them off so bad they most of the time go to another thread.

Try it sometime it works. I don't even fool with going in the other forums anymore. I got plenty I can do here. I don't have to go over there and listen to a bunch of whiners that are well on their way to needing directions to the nearest loony bin.:crazy: So until some of them come back to reality and realize Dean isn't the answer to all the problem I will gladly stay where I'm at. To many over there driving themselves nuts trying to prove their man is something he's not. All they have to do is instead of arguing and screaming all the time, is put that energy into researching their man and they would know what he is all about and all I got to say is it sure as hell isn't what they try to make him out to be and they need to wake up and smell the coffee when it comes to Kerry.

[LittleClarkie]

8. What about the Gore supporter. What's up with him?

What an odd duck. I was serious when I told him he might better serve Gore if he didn't try to support him. As if we should pick our DNC Chair based on whether or not he/she will give Gore "the admiration and respect he deserves." Oh yeah, that's what I look for first :eyes:

I'm battling the "Kerry's not doing anything" rants. When they say "I was a Kerry supporter" I want to shout "HORSESHIT! You wouldn't be turning on him now if you were a real supporter!" I swear, the day after significant action by Kerry, and out of the woodwork comes low-number posters screaming "Kerry's disappeared! He's forgotten us!!!"

I know we can't call them out, but tell me they aren't freepers.

[GRLMGC]

9. They could be freepers

They could also be fairweather supporters or left wingnuts who claim Kerry is the "darling of the corporations". Whatever, it's a free country. They can be as malcontented as they wanna be. Nevermind that the real enemy is sitting in the White House picking his nose or whatever it is he does. Going after Democrats isn't helpful. Constructive criticism is fine but irrational attacks are tiresome.

[LittleClarkie]

11. The person I ranted back at suddenly is talking about not attacking

each other.

Well, my dear, that includes the candidates. Why are we not to attack each other, but it's okay to attack Kerry with both guns blazing.

[sandnsea]

14. Oh, get used to that too

Another thing I never figured out. You and I know when we're attacking or otherwise being rude, we can admit it. THEY never can, never ever ever. They are always just defending and the Kerry people always start everything. It's absolutely wacko and has always been that way. How long were we quiet after the election and allowed them all to just rant on and on? Yet now, WE are going to be labeled the disruptors and THEY are going to be the victims. :crazy:

[saracat]

17. Yep. The ultimate victims!

Thank God all Deaniacs aren't like that. Many actually came to like Kerry and still do. But you would never know that from some of these people on DU!

[GRLMGC]

22. Very true

It's usually like this: A. Someone posts something about Kerry getting involved in the recount or filing a lawsuit and someone will, without fail post something like, "He rolled over. He abandoned us. Waahhhhhhh"

or

B. Someone starts a thread going "Since Kerry is a traitor who abandoned us, will you ever support another Democrat again?" or something to that effect.

Then, a Kerry defender responds and is labeled a "disruptor". I believe you hit it right on the head.

[seito]

26. Amen to that

God help them if they came to DU after Nov 2nd, and dare to question an old timer.

[WildEyedLiberal]

47. Oh, not even after November 2nd...

I made a post once in criticism of all the fairweather supporters whose attitude towards Kerry took a 180 after November 3rd, and was accused of not knowing what I was talking about since I hadn't been here during the primaries. So, believe me, even if you were around before Nov. 2, it's not much better.

Wow, looks like I've missed a lot of action since I've been gone since Christmas. I'm at home, where the internet is dialup, and I hate using this computer, but I hate missing all the threads here on our Kerry forum. Sounds like the Dean wackos have gone on a rampage - probably better that I missed that, since I've had posts deleted in the past (which didn't even attack anyone personally, but oh well, I'll not question the mods judgment), and I'm sure it would happen again if I got into it with the rabid Kerry haters. So best not to even go there, for me - atleast not with this shit computer. When I get back to my apartment with its wonderful broadband, I'm sure I'll spend more time lurking about.

[Patsy Stone]

19. Only

from them?

My goodness. If it weren't for a good laugh session last night, my fingers would have been burned to the nubs.

Every couple of weeks or so, just to blow off some steam, we all need to kick and scratch and throw pies at each other.

I got into it with someone and had my posts deleted the other day. Please, save your strength, we're gonna need it. Never Give Up.
Never stop believing. Let the bitter and the sad make their own peace within themselves. "Chump don't want no help? Chump don't get no help!" Sheeeeeet....

:)

[saracat]

39. Guess what ? After some of my questions, some of Elorials more vicious

comments about Kerry were deleted. I think that is wonderful.

[GRLMGC]

40. That's good

:)

[JI7]

41. just go straight to the moderaters next time

it's a waste of time to try to debate certain people.

[Forever Free]

42. I HATE all that Skulls and Bones crap

For all those that think Kerry made his "Bonesman" deal with Bush, seriously you can shove it up your ass.

This is why we lose elections, with people like this, filling our ranks.

[LittleClarkie]

44. That last time I said this, my tongue tried to excape my mouth

Rush was right about some things in the Dem party. The problem is he portrays them as being more widespread than they are. We're not all wingnut, and we weren't all ABB. It was amazing to me during the RNC how they kept labeling the protesters "Kerry supporters," even the anarchists.

I suppose it takes a wingnut to recognize the wingnuts on the other side though. Like I said yesterday, that's why there are two wings on that nut.

[GRLMGC]

51. Ahhh, Ahhhh

God, that crap pisses me the fuck off. Do they even realize how stupid they sound?

[seito]

53. Saracrat

I just have one thing to say :yourock:

Some of the self-righteous posters seem to think they are holier than thou. Get a freakin life. Your man lost a looooong time ago. Get Over It.

[New Earth]

54. that's what i'm saying

it's been what, almost years?

[bush_is_wacko]

43. I am not a Deaniac, but I do have my limits

I will not support any Dem that lets this election fraud die without a fight. I don't think Kerry will and I think we probably have several senators ready to stand up and object to the certification of the Ohio electoral votes, at the very least. But I'm going to have to draw the line at Jan. 6th! I'm sorry to let you guys down, but it only takes 1 senator to stand up on Jan. 6 and I'll be damned if I'm going to let this go by and watch my senators shake in their boots AGAIN! I don't expect that senator to be Kerry or Edwards, but it damn well better be someone. If we lose on Jan. 6, we lose our democracy in a big way. There will be 2 years to work on the next election scam and 2 more years to perfect the hell out of it. It is about election reform. We simply cannot accomplish that without putting our foot down and saying it ends here! Kerry may be working on impeachment and criminal prosecution behind the scenes, but we will get no where and the Democratic party will lose LARGE numbers of people if they don't make a stand.

I can't say I'll even be willing to vote for a Democrat period if none of them stand up. You need to realize this is not just about Kerry. You can love him death for the persona he projects, but if he can not convince his democratic brothers and sisters to stand up and take this country back, I'm afraid he can't convince most of the people that voted for him to do it again in 2008.

[Withywindle]

46. I don't think the fight will end on January 6

no matter what happens. Look how long it took Watergate to really break, and that was a much smaller, less complicated, and more localized scandal. Look at how long it's taken 9/11 investigators to get anywhere, and that was something with a much more obvious public demand. With this, you can't even get most of the public to notice there's a problem. Look at Iran-Contra.

I'm with you on fervently hoping someone stands up (It definitely couldn't be Edwards, though--he's not in the new Senate!). But I also hope people don't abandon investigating this issue even if no one does.

[GRLMGC]

52. Seriously

We're fighting an uphill battle here. January 6th is not that far way. I'm sorry but nothing substantial is going to happen anytime soon. Most people don't know or don't give any credence to this due to the media's lack of coverage. This is going to take a long time and hopefully, we'll prevail. I know some people don't have patience but not everything comes w/ instant gratification.

[bush_is_wacko]

55. There will be no abandoning the issue.

But the reality is someone needs to stand up for us to have physical access to the information we need. It does not have to result in overturning the election. In fact I don't think it will, unless that smoking gun is big and ugly and dripping with bloody proof. Access to the information, however, will be denied completely, unless someone stands up on Jan6th and says"it stops right here and now!"

[Sydnie]

48. Geesh -- I wish I had found sanctuary here earlier

I feel the same way that you do. Defending the MAN has become a full time job for me. Attempting to get "them" to see that you can pbject to an action or lack there of, but when push comes to shove, you either support the MAN or you don't. No amount of complaining now will change who JK is, or that he was OUR candidate and as such, we needed to support the MAN and all he stood for-- or pick up our toys and go home.

It amazes me how much we want to flog our candidate with words like "he was a lousy candidate" or "he is a dismal failure". This post just about sent me over the edge tonight -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=203022&mesg_id=203502&page= It was all I could do not to say -- then why are you in this forum, in this battle?

Kerry was and still is the most presidential of the bunch. Obviously he was too good for some of us -- if you know what I mean.

[JI7]

49. many of them never supported him in the first place

so their opinion doesn't mean much to me.

many of them disappeared or did nothing to show they supported Kerry and some in fact did things to show they were not totally behind him.

[saracat]

50. He should love him now then. He is doing something that appears unpopular!

Why isn't he happy? Oh, the decision to be quiet isn't popular with him! Sheesh. What BS.