Another 08 post on GDP.

[Mass]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1972210

Just to celebrate the recess, I guess.

[globalvillage]

1. Done.

But they're getting really boring.
:boring:

[Island Blue]

2. Done but gee,

who could have predicted that outcome?

[Mass]

3. Polls on DU always end the same way

1/ Clark
2/Kerry.

There will be no surprise here.

[paulk]

4. I really wish DU would outlaw these 2008 polls

all they end up doing is dividing people.

[fedupinBushcountry]

5. Agree 100%

These useless polls do nothing and really IMO are just put up to cause flamebait.

[Island Blue]

7. I also agree

What purpose do they really serve other than to stir things up (or attempt to anyway)? I guess I shouldn't participate in them then should I? (What, am I channeling Donald Rumsfield by asking myself questions? That's a scary thought.)

[JohnKleeb]

6. I like Clark

but I think its sad that his votes in the polls outnumber Kerry often by a 3:1 ratio. I dont know why people think Boxer will run, shes great but I dont see her running for president. Anyhow of those, Kerry hes been great, I dont care what people say. Just noticed that not one governor is on that poll, of all the governors I hear about, I think I would like Rendell best, however hes got one lil problem, hes Jewish and I think there is definely still some anti semtism in this country in all sides of politics.

[ginnyinWI]

8. has Clark shown any hints that he wants to run again?

I mean really; are these people in a dream world, or is there some reason they have to hope?

Oh and I guess the DLC crowd doesn't need to come over here trying to get elected. Hillary isn't doing so well is she.

[JohnKleeb]

9. Hilliary wont win, dont know if clark will run again or not

[saracat]

16. Clark is running. I was at an event a couple of months ago and he admitted

admitted it, though it was not a "formal" announcement.

[karynnj]

10. But hillary is winning all the real world polls

My (biased and baseless) opinion is that this is based on the fact that the MSM has definitely choosen her as their current favorite and she has huge name recognition. However, I have yet to read in anything what her positions are and what her accomplishments are. The only positions I know for sure are: she has been positioned (by Bill and others) as backing Bush's Iraq position, she is against violent video games, and she is pro-choice, but she feels that abortion is a tragedy. On health care, she is working on using technology with Gingrich.

Personally, I am tired of the Clintons. The emotional roller coaster was fun at the beginning in 1992, but I am less impressed by them than I was years ago. Their one big claim to fame is that proportedly they know how to win. Leaving aside the comment that 2004 was not 1992, it is very likely that Al Gore, who had a reputation for being clean for his entire political career, was hurt by Clinton's immoralities and his own involvement with the Buddist temple fund raising scandal. The Democratic party is still living with the legacy of this sleaziness - even though Gore and Kerry are about as moral and clean as polititians come.

But it is only 2005 - Bill Clinton is back in the spot light. I wonder if Hillary can keep him in line for the next 3 years. If he can not take a back seat, this should hurt her because it will be an awkward situation.

As to Clark, he was a great surrogate for Kerry, but he had no experience running a campaign. In 2004, he was backed by mostly Clinton people - they are likely to back Hillary and will likely resurface all 2004 difficulties Clark had if they see him as a threat to Hillary.

The DU people have stated that he can't be "swift boated" because he was a general and because he was seriously wounded. First, that Kerry and his crew were NOT more seriously wounded was to Kerry's credit and prior to this year being seriously wounded was not a claim to fame - Kerry's Bronze and silver stars were. Second the whole point of the smears was to throw enough dirt at Kerry, that some people would say that if there are that many questions, he had to have done something wrong. With Clark, they might attack his Balkan mission and as with Kerry, it doesn't matter if these were to his credit or not. Also, he may be subtly attacked by the husband of a primary opponent who efectively fired him. (Unless, Bill wants to set Clark up as VP to Hillary - although I can't imagine how he can do this without Clark becoming a threat to Hillary, especially if Clinton helps stop Kerry, leaving Clark as the only get out of Iraq candidate.)

[Mass]

11. Have they never heard of McCain and Cleland

The DU people have stated that he can't be "swift boated" because he was a general and because he was seriously wounded.

He would be Swift boated as well, no doubt about that. They would find something. All you have to do is to go to the freepers board when Clark announced in 03.

As for Hill winning real world polls, I wished people stop thinking these polls mean anything more than Internet polls.

[karynnj]

18. Agree that they are meaningless

after all even if you looked at the Dec 2003 polls Kerry was less likely than about 5 other candidates. Some of the DU people even use that to "prove" that the DLC and other evil people destroyed Dean and rigged all the voting machines in Iowa's caucuses to get a Kerry win. Then the MSM which always loved Kerry caused him to win everywhere.

The earlier polls showed Al Gore and later Lieberman as far ahead as they now show Hillary.

[paulk]

12. a Hillary - McCain matchup is the MSM's 2008 dream

and they're doing everything they can to make it happen. Think of the ratings!

The real world polls don't mean that much - except they do help increase Hillary's already formidable name recognition - and that is a pretty big thing in today's politics. I'm trying to remain neutral for now on Hillary - she could very well be our candidate in 2008.

I don't understand how Clark does so well in these internet polls. I think someone has a cheat in somehow. I can see him winning, but not by the margins he does. I never saw that kind of support for him during the primaries... Don't get me wrong, I like Wes Clark, but it's hard for me to see him as a legitimate Pres. candidate.

[blm]

15. That's EXACTLY why corporate media is pushing this pairing.

They will turn the whole election season into a Super Bowl AND the whoshotJR infotainment spectacular.

They've been loving McCain as long as they've been loathing Hillary, so who do you THINK will come out ahead?

[Island Blue]

21. Why does the media care more about

turning our elections into a soap opera than it does simply covering the issues and reporting on ideas of each candidate? Okay, I know the answer to that question - ratings, but still it drives me insane.

I agree, they are salivating over the possibility of a Hillary / McCain match-up. (Although I'd bet they'd rather have a Hillary / Condi match-up.) Exactly why they want at Hillary / McCain match-up, I don't know. McCain has never struck me as being all that dynamic (aside from his former-POW status)and Hillary wouldn't even be in the running if she wasn't related to a former President (hmmm, now that sounds familiar).

Another thing I don't understand is how the media is always saying that Hillary has a greater name recognition than John Kerry. How is that even possible? Kerry just got the second highest number of votes in the history of the United States. (Or the highest number if they had been counted correctly.) Were these people comatose when they voted and therefore don't remember the name of the guy they voted for? I don't know who to scream at the loudest, the media, the Freepers or the Lefty DU Freepers!

[politicasista]

13. I like Hillary. I like the Clintons but

I don't like what they are doing right now. I don't know why people are not outraged over them spending time with the Bushes. I listened to an interview on Tom Joyner (urban talk show host) and he had Bill on there promoting his foundation and AIDS crisis in Africa. It sounded like he wants Hil in 08 for sure. Tom and the gang are cool with Bill and Hil. They told her that they appreciate Hil working hard for us too.

BTW: I agree karyn with your posts.

[ginnyinWI]

14. Bill did hurt the party

He played into that meme that says Democrats are "godless" and "immoral". Nevermind all the scandals and sleaze coming from the Republicans! Since they are Republicans, those things are thought to be exceptions to the rule. :eyes:

Hillary is probably popular because of Bill's coattails, and because her own views are in fact so unknown. We have no idea really what sort of president she would be. But I'm spoiled now: I want a candidate with the brains, heart and patriotic spirit of John Kerry! I want one who is authentically who he seems to be, not someone who is positioning him or herself on issues just to get votes. Someone who would be an American president, not an Imperialist.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Clark running as VP to Hillary, should she get that far, because she obviously needs military creds now, because of Iraq and terrorism. He worked during Clinton's administration and I think they wanted him to be the nominee, if I am reading it right.

[karynnj]

17. I think they did want him to be the nominee

I wonder if they wanted that because he would then choose Hillary as VP - setting her up for 2012 or they felt he would lose (setting Hillary up as the only one who could win) or Bill honestly saw him as he said at a dinner party in fall of 2003 that Clark and Hillary were the only Democratic stars.

I'm spoiled by wanting Kerry to be President too - it stikes me as ironic that he has all the characteristics that other less honest candidates are marketed as having, but people can't see it when it's real. But knowing that I went through a time where I wondered if he really could be who he seemed to be.

Many of the values they assign to McCain are more easily shown in Kerry's past than in McCain's. Would McCain take on party money people as Kerry did in BCCI?

[ginnyinWI]

19. I went through a time like that, too.

I wondered if he was as good as he seemed, and if I had just been drinking the Kerry koolaid...I watched him carefully through the first half of 2004 looking for any sign of falseness or inconsistency, and didn't find any. (I had only begun to favor him in December 2003.) So by the convention I was absolutely sure of him.

It's really too bad that some Americans have gotten so cynical from having so many bad politicians that they just don't believe there could be an honest one anymore. They tend to believe dirt people put out about any candidate, because "they're all alike". sigh.

[karynnj]

20. Your experience seems identical to mine

There were a lot of candidates that I admired more after reading their books and hearing their speeches, but with Kerry it when beyond agreeing with the direction he was going and feeling that he had the skills and intellect to be President.

In Kerry's case, I grew to believe that he was uniquely qualified to restore the US's reputation in the world and that he would make move efforts to heal the rifts in this country - that Bush exploited rather than healed. His past would have been enormously helpful in Iraq - which was a hopeless mess - there is really no one who could have gone to the neighboring countries and the Iraqi factions and more credibly argued for moving forward to gain stability in Iraq and better relationships with all those countries.

Why - internationally? - although it would be impolitical to push it in the election, his courageousness in fighting US policy in VN and Central America, gives him somewhat the same leverage he had when he worked with the Vietnamese to get information and bodies left behind. With Iraq, it is more the ability to say we need to get past what has happened and work to repair relationships as much as possible and to ask leaders involved to look at his past, his actions and to trust him.

Why - nationally? - So much of what I read showed a person who listened intently and carefully to people and who enjoyed finding the common ground between them. That he could forgive Nixon shows a very generous person. Note: I have no illusions that Kerry doesn't get angry or have very definite negative opinions of some people - just that I think he is not likely to let a grudge distort his relationships in a way that would hurt the country. (contrast Bush who seems hateful) I had hoped that although the right wing would have initially gone ballistic if Kerry won, with the amount of exposure a President gets, all but the fringe would be able to see him in a more honest light and at least not hate him.

So, the reason it's hard to give up on the dream of a Kerry Presidency, vs a Democratic Presidency, is that I still think he is a better person as well as someone who is very well qualified to be President.

[Moderator]

22. locking

Please do not post links to polls in other areas of the board.

thank you

DU Moderator