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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 09:10 AM
Original message
It's OFFICIAL!!!
Kerry is DEFINATELY still a part of ALL the lawsuits. I'm posting this here first.

BUT I know for a fact that he is staying in and that the PDA is suppost to correct their "wrong" by announcing that he's in it.

(We'll have to see how well they correct their wrong!)
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Unfortunately, they seem to want to say it is their action that made
Kerry fold. At least, some posters on PDA are.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Mass, I wouldn't say it was "their" actions per se
BUT it is the overall uncovering of the level of corruption that has made the biggest difference.

PLUS, I KNOW for a fact that there are many, many, many people out there who are working with him on this. So truth be known--we all make a difference! (Even PDA...)

BUT PDA owes it to KERRY and ALL of us to stop the trash talking about any progressive candidate that just does things differently than they do. AND to me, that defines their prejudice.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well said,
and thanks for the news! Not that I was worried - Kerry can be counted on to almost invariably do the right thing.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. all based on some posts on the internet
nothing reliable and nothing to confirm.

i might as well go ahead and make a claim someone is about to do something and then later on make a post saying they decided not to because of me.

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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is good news
Thanks ray of light. :hi:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. So Kerry is still on the lawsuits?
Oh please!
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. yes he is still on.
I think he saw more evidence that helped. Also, I know Rawstory just mentioned an indictment in Ohio.

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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Nice.
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 10:31 PM by whometense
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Two_Ohio_election_officials_indicted_over_2004_reco_0831.html

Two Ohio election officials indicted over 2004 recount

RAW STORY

Two Cuyahoga County elections officials were indicted Tuesday on charges of not handling ballots correctly during the recount of the 2004 presidential election, the (registration-restricted) Plain Dealer reports Wednesday. Excerpts follow -- caught by BradBlog.com.



Kathleen Dreamer, manager of the board's ballot department, and the assistant manager, Rosie Grier, were each charged with six counts of failing to follow Ohio laws that spell out how ballots are selected and reviewed during a recount. . . .

. . . .The charges stem from a complaint first raised last December by Toledo lawyer Richard Kerger, who watched over the recount on behalf of two third-party candidates.

Kerger charged that elections officials failed to randomly select precincts that were supposed to be counted by hand and compared against ballots tabulated by a machine; conduct test-runs before witnesses; and investigate discrepancies between vote totals.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. but somehow he's still a coward,
and some still seem to think they were right, that Cobb is golden and Kerry is shit. It's as if Kerry gets all the blame for quitting when he didn't, and no credit for sticking with it.

At the least, I think Cobb thought he had a scoop, but perhaps overreacted. Just because they were batting the idea around doesn't mean they were necessarily going to do it.

All of the blame, none of the credit. Poor Johnny Velcro.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You should stop talking to these people who say this shit
They are absolutely unconvincable and they are worthless. They have no valid points to make about anything and would rather whine and piss all over themselves and be fake martyrs. Fuck them with a rusty pole.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The rusty pole is a very nice touch.
You're right. LittleClarkie, you're worth all of them put together and then some. WEL is right - they live for the endless argument, but they never say anything of substance.

Why should you waste your beautiful mind on them??
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. it's one thing if they truly are misinformed or disagree
but most of them just want to spew the same shit and as WEL said, do their martyr act.

that's why they say "too little too late" anytime someone posts about kErry doing something positive but they also post "where the fuck is Kerry" demanding he do something.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That gets so old
You can't have it both ways. :eyes:
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I get tired of that crap too.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I don't pay them any attention. They don't even have the facts.
It was an 8-10 million vote victory, not a 2 million vote "loss." That's 329 electoral votes, fucktards.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. yup--crybabies
It seems that these whiners are trying to feel "big" by getting on their keyboards and bashing a major political figure. Ooh, I'm impressed! :sarcasm: And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them enjoy reactions of protest coming from people like us.

But I know--what can you do? Some of it simply should not be allowed to stand as is. I guess the best reaction would be to howl with laughter or make some kind of joke, or do anything but spend a lot of time laboriously rebutting all of their points. It is like trying to explain algebra to your cat.

The other idea is to be armed with a very good supply of links--remember when we were going to do that? If everyone has a list of links on specific topics it would be easy to paste them in as answers to allegations.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. We should do this and keep
Edited on Thu Sep-01-05 11:39 AM by whometense
reminding each other to keep it kicked. I don't know the technicalities of what is allowed, but maybe the mods would allow us to pin it at the top after their messages, so it would always be there for quick reactions without having to search. We could call it the Kerry Defense thread, or some such.

What do you think?
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. some ideas
Edited on Thu Sep-01-05 12:39 PM by ginnyinWI
We can kick one thread every morning. But it might get confusing trying to find what you want, because links would have to be added in additional posts. I'm not one to ask about technical questions either--but there are a few here who could. Noisy Dem? Anyone else?

What I'd be inclined to do is keep links in a Word Doc on my computer--whenever someone would post something I could keep it and catagorize them for easy reference. Subjects like: Iraq, Elections, Homeland Security, Health Care, etc. which show that JK is doing stuff and speaking on these topics.

Lately it seems like the complaints are some version of, "The Democrats Are Doing Nothing For Us!" so we could counter with links.

edit: another idea would be for The Democratic Daily or some other blog we are friendly with create a reference list for countering the repeated accusations we have to deal with on behalf of JK. Then link this site to theirs.
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. I read the Kos post, and I have to ask...
Edited on Thu Sep-01-05 02:18 AM by Vektor
All of the fraud evidence, the Conyers report, all the bullshit with the vote tabulators...Kerry didn't know about this? I just don't know how he and his legal team were unaware of this...

:wtf:

You KNOW I'm not putting Kerry down, don't interpret my incredulous tone to mean that, but seriously...how did he not know?
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think they suspected, but without verifiable proof
And there are powerful political forces in America that can shut people up, make evidence go away and convince their pals in the media to make anyone who questions the outcome of the election look like a fool, or worse. We have enemies who are amoral and deeply anti-patriotic. They use their power to keep themselves in power. The election whiners seem to think that it is a simple matter of standing up and saying, "This was stolen" and it ends there and the celebrations begin. Not by a long shot. This war is long, costly and will take money, patience and skill to win. There is no other way. (Why does everyone look for a shortcut?)

This is not simply an episode of snapping your fingers and having all the evidence fall into your lap, complete with signed affadavits and video of people who didn't vote. (How can you prove a negative? If the people were intimidated into not voting, how are you going to show that?)

I think Kerry suspects fraud, but he hasn't found proof. The difference would mean something to someone as careful as him. We have heard John Kerry question people in committee, right? He has the goods on people before he ever shows up and he can be relentless in his questioning precisely because he knows his stuff backwards and forwards. He is prepared and armed with the irrefutable facts. Why would he proceed in a manner contrary to this on an issue this important?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. It is a very high stakes game
Edited on Thu Sep-01-05 08:45 AM by karynnj
If they make charges they can't prove and they lose, the ability to challenge it again if better evidence does surface could be lost. Unfortunately, it could also discredit any Democratic effort to fix the problem - now determined in people's minds to not be a problem.

It is very cavalier of some to suggest that even if he can't prove it, Kerry is obligated to fight a losing battle because they personally want him to. As you say, "We have heard John Kerry question people in committee, right? He has the goods on people before he ever shows up and he can be relentless in his questioning precisely because he knows his stuff backwards and forwards. He is prepared and armed with the irrefutable facts. " Kerry has done this for at least 30 years - since he was a prosecutor. He was even incredibly prepared when he testified to the Senate at 27. This is his reputation and who he is - a very solid person who words are clearly respected by most of his peers.

Rove attacked Kerry's war record, his career, his marriage, his personality and likableness, and Rove's perennial favorite, his sexuality. Even before this Kerry spent a career fighting these guys. He has every reason to absolutely hate these guys - but he seems more motivated by what they have done to the country. He is a genuine public servant who has consistently fought for Democratic ideals. If there were a reasonable case, he would take it both for the country and himself. (And we would be awestruck hearing his well-prepared arguments)

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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. bigger than BCCI or Iran-Contra
possibly. If a major system of election fraud were to be exposed in this country--wow. Because few believe it can happen here.

Some complainers are making the mistake of underestimating the enemy. The people on the other side are well-funded and powerful, and smart--immoral maybe, but smart. Diebold has come along as a wolf in sheep's clothing--the oh-so-modern and convenient way to vote! Yeah, right.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-01-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Knowing and being able to prove it in court are two different things
Edited on Thu Sep-01-05 07:58 AM by karynnj
I could say that I "know" Kerry really won because never before has the exit polling been so systematically wrong - in the same direction all over the country. The exit polls were designed using the same basic method that has been used for years and they have been consistently pretty accurate. Remember they weren't predicting a narrow win, but a pretty substantial one.

I had expected the statisticians to disclose a flaw in the design or in the weights used to create the projections. Instead, what they really said was the projection did not equal the official number, although the methodology had no obvious problems. They then ASSUMED the official number was right and gave the "shy Bush voter" as a hypothesis. Note in Ukraine, no one spoke of the "shy (official winner -disliked by the US and Europe) voter". It also should be noted that there has never been this type of shy voter in previous US elections. This year with the RW echo chamber praising Bush 24/7 and religious leaders overtly telling their people that God wanted them to vote for Bush, "shy Kerry voters" would be more likely.

I would believe "shy voters", if there was something that would explain it. For example, if one candidate was black (or possibly a woman), there might be people with political leanings towards that candidate who would vote for the opponent, but be ashamed of the reason why. (If the media had shown the candidates fairly instead of hiding Bush's warts and covering Kerry less than any Presidential candidate I can remember, people voting for Bush because of tax cuts should have been ashamed of themselves.) The fact that these "shy" voters were mostly in areas with high Bush vote, makes this more suspicious.

When you put together:
- the attempts to suppress legitimate voter registrations either by arbitrary rules (Ohio - where Blackwell challenged forms send in by people who filled out the forms printed as a community service by a Cleveland newspaper) or where private companies (who owners were big Bush supporters) threw out Democratic registrations.

-Voter suppression by lack of enough machines

- The demonstration of how easy it is to manipulate the votes from machines.

- The fact that the companies that make the machines are owned by conservative ideologues and the codes operating the machines were not checked by bi-partisan experts.

- The exit polls being consistently off,

Because you have a pattern of the Republicans being willing to cheat and because there were ways open to the them to cheat, the alternative hypothesis that what the exit polls showed was close to what the actual cast votes were seem at least as possible as the "shy Bush voters" hypothesis. The enormity of this charge, makes even most Democrats back away from it - in essence we are saying that we are a banana republic where honest bi-partisan elections didn't happen.

The problem is that you can prove motive, suggest methods,and hypothesize the wide spread crime - but you can't prove it - maybe there was a flaw in the sample design that was not honestly disclosed (unlikely because the company would not have stood behind the statisticians/ pollsters who made the error) or maybe the Rush audience consists of "shy" Bush voters. There is still no smoking gun.

Without a smoking gun, Kerry could not have made a case that most Americans wouldn't want to believe, in hostile courts, without subpoena power, with the media talking about the convincing Bush victory. If a smoking gun was found before January 6, the fact that Kerry conceded very graciously would work in his favor - he was following the rules and, however personally painful was calling for healing of the rift. He would need to convince the majority of Americans, not only that he won, but that it was important enough to America's integrity to accept that something very fundamental to our democracy went wrong. (The sad thing is that there would be a substantial group who would likely claim the end justified the means.)









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