HELLLLLLP!!!

[fedupinBushcountry]

Ok, I was doing some research on this Webb guy who is a vet running against Allen and this is what pops up. :crazy: After reading this I cannot get behind this candidate. Am I wrong?

Veterans face conundrum: Kerry or Bush?
By James Webb
Both Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., and President Bush have had their attackers and defenders on the issue of Vietnam War service. But given Kerry's infamous anti-war activities, it is striking that many Vietnam veterans have chosen either to support him or maintain a skeptical distance from both camps. Indeed, Kerry's wins in Iowa and New Hampshire, which jump-started his campaign, often are attributed to his support among veterans.

Having been involved in veterans' issues since the 1970s, I know many who in earlier days spoke of their disdain for Kerry but are now holding their fire. Kerry's negatives, however, do not automatically become Bush's positives, particularly when the focus of many now is on America's involvement in postwar Iraq. And in that context, the most important question is how ? or whether ? each candidate proposes to end the United States' military presence there.

To be sure, Kerry deserves condemnation for his activities as the leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). In the early 1970s, this small organization ? never more than 7,000 veterans out of a potential pool of 9 million ? became the darling of the anti-war movement and the liberal media. Its activities went far beyond simply criticizing the politics of the war to repeatedly and dishonestly misrepresenting the service of Vietnam veterans and the positive feelings most felt after serving.

Kerry and his VVAW compatriots portrayed their fellow veterans as unwilling soldiers, morally debased and haunted by their service. While this might have fit a small minority, the most accurate survey, done by the Harris Poll in 1980, showed that 91% of those who went to Vietnam were "glad they served their country," 74% "enjoyed their time in the military" and 89% agreed with the statement that "our troops were asked to fight in a war which our political leaders in Washington would not let them win."

Kerry's own comments were filled with hyperbolic exaggerations that sought to make egregious acts seem commonplace. During a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in 1971, he testified that fellow veterans had routinely "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan." With those words, he defamed a generation of honorable men. No matter how he spins it today, at a minimum, he owes them a full and complete apology.




more>

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-02-18-veterans-edit_x.htm

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=273x69842

He still posts those rancid editorials on his website. Fuck him. Go Harris Miller.

[fedupinBushcountry]

4. How did I miss that thread

Thanks for linking it. I will be supporting Miller.

[_dynamicdems]

7. Do you have a Web site for Harris Miller? I'd like to send him a

contribution.

[TayTay]

2. Sorry, I call douchebag on him.

Even if he is opposing the single dumbest man in Congress. No, no, no, no! I can only pray for Harris Miller. Sigh!

[ProSense]

3. Where do these morons come from?

Wasn't vietnam a lie? Fuck him!

[sandnsea]

5. More articles, not good

Alot of Vietnam Vets really do have that take on Kerry, so I'm not terribly surprised to see it. But more than that is his uber-militarism, these articles freak me out. He seems to flit around alot too, Ollie North was a liar, then he goes after Clinton all through the 90's, then goes to supporting Bush, then against him. I really don't trust any of these types. Maybe he's just a publicity hound, who knows.

http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/recent_articles.htm

[fedupinBushcountry]

Here is just one reply against Clinton

TAE: Speaking of the top, what do you think of Bill Clinton?

MR. WEBB: I cannot conjure up an ounce of respect for Bill Clinton when it comes to the military. Every time I see him salute a Marine, it infuriates me. I don't think Bill Clinton cares one iota about what happens in a military unit.

http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/variouspubs/aeitradit...

We do not need two republican parties.

[fedupinBushcountry]

8. Delete

double-posted.

[fedupinBushcountry]

6. You know

it would have been such an easy thing for Warner to step up and challenge barfbag Allen. But no, he has these insiders telling him to jump the ladder and go straight to the presidency. Very bad move IMO and hurting Dems here in Virginia. I am sick to my stomach right now.

[WildEyedLiberal]

9. He would win, too.

I think selfish ambition is an epidemic in this party. Look how many people refuse to back John Kerry on matters of conscience such as filibustering Alito because they're too busy jockeying for position, courting favor with the press by acting "moderate," and preening for the cameras and beltway insiders.

If not for John Kerry, I seriously might just say fuck it all. The whole sordid carnival makes me :puke:

[beachmom]

10. Hey Fedup -- so what do you think you would do if

you go into the voting booth in November, and your choices are Webb or Allen? I have decided that I will not decide until I am in there, and will follow my heart and my gut.

On another VA topic, did you hear about our new AG, Bob McDonnell, issuing a legal opinion saying that Warner's (and now Kaine's) executive order that state workers not be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation, is "unconstitutional" in the Commonwealth? McDonnell is totally in the pocket of Pat Robertson, and is obviously jockeying for position to run for governor. I actually have seen him in person at the Pungo Strawberry Fest, and it is puzzling how someone so professional and put together as him is really a Mullah in the state of Virginia. I mean, the guy is totally evil. I feel surrounded by people who in the name of "democracy" (i.e. catering to the bigotry of the masses) spew hatred of our gay brothers and sisters using the bible to back them up. It is so discouraging.

[ProSense]

11. IMO

I would never vote for that asshole. The Democrats better may sure he's not the choice. I have relatives in VA and will do everything in my power to convince them not to vote for him.

[fedupinBushcountry]

12. To tell you the truth

I would leave that category blank. I know that is not good but damn it I refuse to vote for someone who IMO is a republican dressed in Dem clothing.

I read that about McDonnell, and he says it has nothing to do with him being against gays, typical Republican out right lie.

I don't know Beachmom, but what I have been reading lately and especially that David Ashe will not be running, I question everything, in my gut I think higher ups are trying to control who we get to vote for. I read between the lines and in this article I see a hand pulling Ashe out of the race, JMO.

Ashe's career change leaves Philip Kellam, the Beach's commissioner of the revenue, as the only Democrat preparing a challenge to incumbent U.S. Rep. Thelma Drake, a Republican. Ashe ran against Drake unsuccessfully two years ago. Local party officials had been preparing for a party to choose their nominee.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=100003&ran=61602&zr=1/

[beachmom]

16. Oh, I completely agree with your assessment

Here is my question. Who is Phillip Kellam? Is he going to bash gays, too? Is he going to be anti-abortion, pro-war, etc.? If that is the case, then why should I even bother showing up at the polls? Or perhaps I will no matter what and write in David Ashe for Congress and Mark Warner for Senate. And by the way, I like Warner a lot, and I know he has his reasons for not running in the Senate. However, I wonder if the Party tried to talk him into (or out of) it, or whether it was mostly his decision.

[Mass]

13. He certainly do not like Kerry, but this is not the real issue here.

It will be funny to see some "anti-war" posters on GD run and support Webb, not even realizing where he stands on military issues because they think that anybody who does not support the invasion of Iraq has to be some peace activist. They will be surprised as soon as he begins to speak.

My only question with Webb is whether he will be better or worse than Allen (Iraq excepted) and the only people who can answer this question are the people of VA. (He certainly will not be the only senator to hate Kerry (and Webb hates Kerry. I have read somewhere that he refused to shake hands with him at some meeting) - I am sure that McCain did not like Kerry when he arrived in the Senate and they seem to go fairly well together now, though they probably still disagree on VietNam).

[fedupinBushcountry]

15. Big difference

McCain is a Republican, Webb is supposedly a Dem.

[ProSense]

17. That's the whole hypocrisy.

Why is he opposed to the Iraq war? The Vietnam war materialized under similar circumstances, a lie. What's his problem?

When Kerry pointed to the atrocities, he didn't say it was the fault of the soldiers he merely pointed to what they were doing and the leadership failings.

How is that different from criticizing the Abu Ghraib incident (and it wasn't isolated)? It isn't. What about the entire U.S. sanctioned torture debate going on now? Listen to how many times in criticizing Iraq people wind up clarifying that they are not speaking against the troops, but speaking out against the war. Look how many times the Repugs try to make criticism of the war the same as criticism of the troops. It was the same then as it is now: Kerry was dealing with the same breed of assholes.

There are veterans, human rights groups and average citizens screaming about this. Wrong is wrong. Webb is an asshole.

[Mass]

18. Like Odum, he understood that the war was neither necessary

nor well-planned and that it would be a debacle.

No question that Webb is an asshole. I really do not like him, but you will find a lot of Democrats who have not reconciled with Kerry on this issue (Murtha is another one).

So I stand by my question (and am happy I do not have to vote in VA). Is Webb an improvement on Allen? (I know I asked about Webb a few weeks ago when he announced he was running because I was not sure where he stood. I knew his history with Kerry and this did not give me a lot of confidence).

[ProSense]

20. The title of his piece alone

suggest he's full of shit. Normal Republicans are trying to distance themselve from Bush. Even if he hates Kerry, he's running as a Democrat, why bring this shit up now and under the BS guise that he is conflicted? He isn't running against Kerry.

By comparison, McCain is an improvement. That's how strongly I feel.

[Mass]

21. He was not running at this point . I agree with you on Webb

and feel sorry that the Democrats think they need people like him (or some others that are running) to win elections. This is an important issue. I am just trying not to focus on the anti-Kerry aspect (though it is difficult) and to see where the guy stands on other issues. If we need to have some Republicans change to Democrats, cant we focus on people like Snowe or Chafee rather than on people who will eventually vote more with the Republicans than with the Democrats.

[ProSense]

23. Sorry, I missed the date. Excellent point! In fact, they may vote

more Republican than moderate Republicans.

[fedupinBushcountry]

24. Not a fair question, IMO

There is more to being a Democrat then just being an improvement to Allen. He supported Allen for the Senate, so what do you think? So does he share the same viewpoint as Allen ? He may be angry now because of what Bush has done, but what will he really do once in the Senate, will he be a help or be a hindrance to Democrats? There is more then one issue on the table.

[Mass]

25. I totally agree - That was the point of my post.

[karynnj]

19. Was Webb on record in 2003 as being against the war?

What is his position now?

There is something really wrong with a man having to choose between:
- a policy that he knows will lead to increased death and destruction that will occur if Bush is elected

OR

- not speaking against a man, with better policies, but who you have hated for something he did as a young man. (Kerry forgave Nixon. )

Remember, he had the option to do nothing - in actuality he supported Bush.

What I question is, WILL HE EVEN STAY A DEMOCRAT? Nothing stops him from changing his party and everthing points to him being a conservative.

[karynnj]

14. There was a DU-P thread too- a week ago

titled something like "why James Webb needs to beat Allen" about a week ago. A lot of us posted and what was said was that there were several DU ers who essentially sided with Webb over Kerry. The fact that these articles portray Kerry very unfairly in the worst possible light - and contained lies - didn't bother them. (In fact, they believed them.)

I quit posting after posting when it was clear it was counterproductive. They seem so attracted to the shiny sparkle of a high level former military person, who criticizes Bush ON THE WAY the war is being fought, that they ignore his past.

I wrote that I was even suspicious of his "conversion" to being a Democrat. He was in the Reagan administration, he endorsed Allen 6 years ago (he was Governor, so he KNEW he was conservative), and 2 years ago he slimed Kerry before the election. His op-ed against swiftboating is a little bit fake given the garbage he wrote.

His concern on Iraq is either very recent or his judgment is awful. If he thought Bush was creating a mess, he should have supported Kerry, who was listening to the military. In the very worst interpretation Kerry as a 27 year old should have toned down his language and added qualifiers that most soldiers were not guilty of atrocities as he is careful to do now. In fact reading the entire transcript, it's clear that Kerry was concerned with the soldiers having difficulty dealing with what they had done - which to me implies they were moral and knew right from wrong, but couldn't avoid some actions that later troubled them. (Webb's interpretation is a lie)

But even if you assume that Webb was right he had to balance this versus the escalating violence in Bush's war of choice. Webb was blinded by his own hatred.

[karynnj]

22. A lesser indicator of bias

Webb makes no comment about Kerry's work that has lead to the return of American's remains. Refering to Kerry as an apologist for the Hanoi government goes beyond the acceptable. (Note - I doubt he would write this about McCain who was Kerry's ally on this.

"The view that Kerry remained on the "wrong side" of the war was compounded by his failure to consult with leaders of America's million-plus Vietnamese community while playing a dominant role in the normalization of relations with communist Vietnam during the early 1990s. Many Vietnamese-Americans believe Kerry has been an apologist for the Hanoi government on such key issues as human rights. Kerry personally has bottled up the Vietnamese Human Rights Act, which twice passed the House by wide majorities, so that it cannot even be debated on the Senate floor"

On edit, looking back at the date of the article - 2/18/04 - changes my opinion a little. He was trying to SWIFTBOAT Kerry himself in the primaries. Likely because he hated him and wanted a different choice in the elections. (Also, he was a marine COMMANDER - could Kerry's comments have hurt because they contained some truth.)

[globalvillage]

26. Get some of these. Put them everywhere.

Miller's poll numbers are as good as Webb's.

Besides, Miller's an IT geek, and I think IT geeks rock.