Is this the tipping point?

[sandnsea]

A while back I asked everybody if they had identified their own personal "tipping point", a specific incident that might cause them to either leave the country or head to The Mall and stay there until the Bushies were gone. Is this phone database it? Do you think it's time to head to DC and just flat refuse to leave until these bastards are out of there? I think most of our leadership has figured it out. Would a mass movement like that help, or should we wait for the election? Is it time to start screaming "resign"? We can't wait for impeachment.

Whaddya think? I think if a movement like this ever materializes, and works, it'll have to come from our wing of the Democratic party. Maybe that's arrogant, but I do think we're the ones with the consistency and organization and determination to make this sort of thing happen.

[ray of light]

1. this is a tipping point.

But looking at the actions of the GOP and the 'business-lobby' dems, we can't just handle these things like 'business as usual'. On the other hand, I say we keep in mind that we are very likely to take over the house in 07. That means when we impeach these goons, then we will replace them with Democratic people. If anything is done now, we're stuck with Cheney and then Hastert.

I just think we need to stop Congress from 'working' cause they're working for themselves and businesses only now! They're trying to rush through legislation. And they're going against strong public opinion to rush these bills through.

[emulatorloo]

3. It is weird -- because if you were a businessperson planning deals

w other companies, wouldn't you be pissed off that the govt was tracking your phone calls?

[ray of light]

5. it could affect bids and certainly confidentiality clauses.

[k j]

6. At least....

in Rural Red, where we live now, the idea of impeachment is still fairly new and untested. But what's been happening is an awakening of *what* BushInc as done.

So for now, I'll keep concentrating on Bush's criminal behavior, because before people in this county will start chanting "impeachment," they'll need to know the whys. And those only now beginning to see daylight in this part of the country.

Now, if I was in Seattle.... LOL

[sandnsea]

19. What about resignation?

Do you think that would go down better than impeachment? A call for resignation has to rise up from the people, I'm wondering how we could generate that.

[k j]

47. Yep

I think a call for Bush to resign could be generated... it would take a series of articles/op-eds, LTE and general conversation that would have to reach its own tipping point, but it's a way.

A case could be made to the American people that Bush could "do the right thing" for the country, after (list of activities here) and resign, and not put the country through the stress of another impeachment trial, while we're at war (his war), etc.

I think an op-ed with that slant could be generated in a soft tone, because the facts of what Bush has done are hard/harsh and have been stated throughout the piece. This could work in an area where I live, where, sad to say, there is some need to give people the opportunity to "save face" for their votes for the man.

[beachmom]

2. I think we're there. I mean, look at this AS post

Who needs the law when you're the King? Some of us have long been worried by the Bush administration's contempt for the rule of law in its legitimate efforts to protect Americans from terrorism. And we've been dismissed and criticized for it. But the more you know, the more troubling it gets. In all this, trust in the president's word is important. That's gone. For good reason. You don't abandon limited government, enable torture, declare the executive above the law, pile up countless signing statements to undermine the Congress ... and then take pains to protect Americans' privacy. This monarch, already eager to perpetuate a dynasty, needs more scrutiny. It may require voting Democrat this fall to give it to him.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/king_george_wat_1.html

Okay, I read this guy every day and he HATES the Democratic party and often makes fun of them. So if he is saying vote Democrat in the fall, that goes to show how BAD it really is.

[_dynamicdems]

11. This is an issue for every party: Dem, Repug, Libertarian, Green....

Everybody is upset and worried to learn about this. It is straight of a bad Clancy knock-off novel. Last night I caught the beginning of Scarborough Country (I tuned in to watch KO earlier) and the guy was BLASTING Bush over this. He sounded even more disgusted than he was over Katrina. He's a total jerk about a lot of issues and as arrogant as Hell, but I listened to him because it amazed me to see someone who was so supportive of Bush turn on him like a pit bull.

[k j]

4. sandnsea

as you've said many times... we need to get LOUDER. :patriot:

I do believe the chorus is beginning to be heard... and many more are joining in. I think we're near a tipping point, but as to pushing it, well, hub and I have been there done that. LOL! At least for now, I just know I'm going to keep singing because for the first time since the days of the last campaign, finally, there is a smile on my face. (even though hub is officially unemployed.)

I truly believe we're close to bringing this misAdministration down. :)
(Not that truly, they haven't brought themselves down by their actions!)

[TayTay]

7. Katrina was the tipping point

Americans do not march en masse to Washington and enact coups against their government. (The closest we came to this was in the 1930's with the Hoovervilles and so forth. We are nowhere near that point of pure despair.)

This is what Americans do:

72nd Congress (1931-1933)

Majority Party: Republican (48 seats)
Minority Party: Democrat (47 seats)
Other Parties: 1 Farmer-Labor
Total Seats: 96
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

73rd Congress (1933-1935)

Majority Party: Democrat (59 seats)
Minority Party: Republican (36 seats)
Other Parties: 1 Farmer-Labor
Total Seats: 96
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

74th Congress (1935-1937)
Majority Party: Democrat (69 seats)
Minority Party: Republican (25 seats)
Other Parties: 1 Farmer-Labor; 1 Progressive
Total Seats: 96
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/one_item_and_teasers/partydiv.htm

The results in the House were similar. This means that the basic and fundamental dislike of the current government seeped into middle class awareness and they VOTED out the people who were unab le to solve their problems. They voted out the incompetents and those who advocated 'more of the same.' And, if you will notice, it didn't happen in the 1930 elections. It took a little while for it to seep in. Then, we had a social revolution.

[beachmom]

8. Just listened to the Diane Rehm Show on NPR

Still treating this stuff like it's just a "controversial story", not the complete abuse of power and trampling of the Constitution. The "liberal" on the show was the neutral journalist from USA Today, who had to spend her time defending her fellow journalist's story as not a concerted "smear campaign" against Hayden. And the callers only bitched about immigration. Then they cited a poll that said 63% of Americans support the NSA program. WTF? It's like MSM World is literally a different planet than what I'm on. Is this the reality, or is our outrage more the norm?

[demdiva]

13. Yeah ... I agree.

Their lies were ALL OVER the TV. Even more, what Christian could possibly approve of their incompentence in New Orleans?

[jillan]

15. Katrina did it for me.

After all of the spin about how they are protecting us after 9-ll,
Katrina happened.

Tom Freidman (NYT) said it best when he said that
9-11 was one bookend for this administration, and Katrina was the other.

It exposed all of the weakness of this admin, and to quote the most handsome man in the Senate,
we all found out there was no wizard behind the curtain.

And even with all of this NSA bs that they are spewing now - I will never fall for their excuse of how this is helping with the security of the country BECAUSE Katrina happened. They are incompetent and they have no clue how to manage this country.

[sandnsea]

21. Nowhere near that point of despair?

I understand what you're saying, I hope people are just waiting for November. I'm scared to death that they aren't and that they still aren't relating what's happening with the Bushies to their own Congressman.

Certainly we're nowhere near that point of economic despair, but shouldn't we really be near that point of "illegality despair"? Know what I mean? When do their actions create a sort of "Constitutional Great Depression" that requires direct action?

[ginnyinWI]

9. This is one of those things that is personal.

They can spend all our tax dollars on an illegal war, and somehow people don't relate to it personally. Because "they" will keep on taxing them, whatever else happens. But this is surveillance of our phone calls something new; this isn't the America people want. The call to Grandma was noted down somewhere electronically--and I think a majority will assume that if the gov't. wants to go back and listen to it, they can and they will. For * to stand up and look all innocent and declare he is protecting our privacy makes no difference--he's lost so much credibility.

So yeah I think we are past the point of no return--the people are done with this administration. Add to this the steady trickle of corruption news--our media is good for that, at least--those scandals are being reported. Each one serves to strengthen the perception that they are all crooks and deserve to be thrown out.

[ProSense]

10. Another straw!

There are those who want the Democrats to walk out and hold an emergency press conference. The public is increasing dissatisfied with Bush, but I doubt that such actions would be viewed favorably by the marjority. Most people, I believe, want the process of Democracy to work. They are not looking to Democrats to incite panic or spark a crisis.


I think too much more and it may well get to that. The cries for investigation, impeachment and resignation are extremely valid at this point. Who knows some of the crimes may justigy more punitive legal action.

[sandnsea]

18. They're monitoring our phone calls

I mean, can you imagine this being met with complacency ten years ago?? Or maybe everybody always assumed they'd lost their privacy so this doesn't come as much of a surprise. I don't know. I don't want anybody in Congress to incite a riot, that wouldn't be good at all. I'm just wondering if we can really wait 7 more months to get rid of these people, if we're able to take both houses in November that is.

[ProSense]

20. Remember ChoicePoint? I find this strange:

Poll: Identity Theft Concerns Rise

Few Think There Are Sufficient Safeguards
Analysis by JON COHEN

March 17, 2005 — - Most Americans are worried that technology is being used to invade their privacy, a sharp spike from five years ago. And even more -- seven in 10 adults -- are concerned they could become victims of online identify theft at some point in the future, a new ABC News/Washington Post poll finds.

After a spate of revelations of major identity-theft cases, 57 percent now express worry that computers and technology are prying into their private lives -- up from 42 percent in 2000 and 38 percent in 1994. Moreover, 72 percent are concerned about the possibility their personal records could be stolen over the Internet.

Snip...

These worries follow reports of unauthorized use of personal information stored by companies including Bank of America, ChoicePoint, DSW Inc. and Lexis-Nexis, and subsequent calls from Congress for laws to reign in so-called data brokers. As things stand, this ABC News/Washington Post poll finds, 84 percent of Americans think such companies are not doing enough on their own to protect personal privacy.

Snip...

Methodology

This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by telephone March 10-13 among a random national sample of 1,001 adults. The results have a three-point error margin. Sampling, data collection and tabulation were done by TNS of Horsham, Pa.

Click here for PDF version with full questionnaire and results.


http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PollVault/story?id=590413&page=1

This is still post 9/11, post the election. Now the government is spying on people and they're less concerned? There is a disconnect somewhere.

[sandnsea]

23. People compartmentalize

and don't see the connections between economic privacy and political privacy. I think people don't know ChoicePoint was used to create the voter purge rolls, for instance. Or how many global databases they're creating, that sort of thing. And somehow I think people identify themselves more with their credit rating than their personal views and political opinions, know what I mean?

[ProSense]

25. Exactly!

The telephone is this harmless tool that people use to communicate their inner most private thoughts to family including health- and sex-related issues, discuss everyday life and politics, order stuff from catalogs, and resolve issues related to their economic activities. It just a harmless tool that pretty much invites whomever is listening into your home and mind, and empowers the listener to do whatever with the information.

I use AT&T and was perplexed when JK e-mail just stopped showing up. It took four months to resolve the issue: the first e-mail since December arrived a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to see if the next one reaches me before celebrating.

[ProSense]

27. You'd think

incidents such as the recent one involving the Hud Secretary awarding contract based on political affilation would give people a hint as to why this is dangerous, and moreso in Bush's hands.

White House Says Bush Backs HUD Secretary
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1171647&mesg_id=1171647


NSA Again Violates the Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1171278&mesg_id=1171278

[demdiva]

12. Katrina made me think about it

[paulk]

14. I think this will be a tipping point for the libertarian wing of the

Republican Party - by mid-summer Bush will be down in the mid twenties for approval.

As far as legislation goes - the Republicans either don't get it or they're just trying to get everything passed that they can now because they realize they're going to lose that ability come November. I'm thinking pretty specifically about the newest round of tax cuts for the wealthy. So, in that sense, Bush isn't the problem so much as the Republican Party in general - and a march on Washington isn't going to do much there.

Marching on Washington and demanding the overthrow of the government isn't really the way Americans have done things in the past. People believe that the system will work, that things will sort themselves out. It's really one of the great strengths of this country - that people ultimately believe in the government. And our elections.

I think the worst thing our wing of the party should do is march on Washington. Any action like that would have to have broad based support. The people defecting from the Republicans right now are conservatives - and I don't want to give them any reasons to change their minds -

OTOH, if Bush attacks Iran that will be a tipping point. I really think we'll see people in the streets if that happens.


--------------

btw - I would leave this country in a heartbeat if I could talk my wife into it - my tipping point was reached a couple of years ago....

[sandnsea]

17. Nixon resigned

That was public pressure to save the country the impeachment process. That's what I'm talking about, not a coup where we storm the gates or anything. Just a permanent presence that focuses on the crimes of this administration, every single day.

With all that's happened, I'm not sure an attack on Iran would have any different response than knowing that our phone calls are being monitored. Something has taken hold in this country where we're just allowing all of this stuff to happen, I don't really know what it is. I'm just wondering if there is really anything that will get everybody to rise up and say enough.

[paulk]

24. it was pressure from other Republicans that forced Nixon

to pull the plug. They saw an election debacle approaching.... some of them may even have been concerned about the good of the country... we all keep hoping for that from this current crop of Repugs... but.... that was the point I was trying to make in talking about legislation. These guys just don't seem to be paying much attention. That's my opinion on what happened, anyway. There were plenty of Republicans who would have voted for impeachment back then - now? I'm not so sure. Who knows what is going to come out in the next several months - maybe it will get so bad that a group of Republicans will march over to the White House and tell Junior to step down.

Even then, will Bush listen? Something tells me no. I think we've got a really unique situation here with this guy. I think his grasp of reality is... tenuous, at best. George W. Bush is seriously fucked up in the head.


-------------


you could be right on Iran... I think people are just... punch drunk? We've been hit so many times by these assholes that we're just staggered... can't find our bearings... I know I've seen it in myself. I can't find the levels of anger that I could 4 years ago. It's almost a protective mechanism - I've had to put my faith in the system - that it will work come November - because screaming at the tv (or computer) is bad for my health.

[sandnsea]

31. Yeah, but building pressure

That came from the voters, don't you think? Or do you think maybe Republicans were just more skittish in those days?? I don't know that Bush would resign because Republicans told him to either, but he would when mamma told him to.

As for people, I just don't know. People who have paid attention could certainly be punch drunk. The rest? They're just waking up to this nightmare, that doesn't explain them. They made their voices heard over Teri Schiavo, where the hell are they on everything else?? And the system? Well yeah, but even if we did take over both Houses, there's still an awful lot of screaming to do to get some of our Democrats to fix what's wrong.

Funny, I'm watching King Kong right now, where she tells him no more and he has a temper tantrum. That'd be Bush for sure, only with a much worse ending.

[paulk]

39. I really think it's going to take a few days for reaction to build

on this newest NSA scandal. Then we've still got Fitz/Rove, Abramoff, a little HUD scandal brewing, Hookergate, I'm sure there's a few other things out there - God! there's so many scandals with this admin. I can't keep track of them anymore...

The Bush junta's polls will continue to sink, and, in a way, that is pressure from voters. And I think there really were a lot more Republicans back then who put the country first.

Going back to that legislation on the tax cuts (which I'm obsessing about) - I was kind of surprised the House just rubberstamped it. And the prediction is that the Senate will, too. I think they realize they're going to get their asses handed to them this fall, so they're going for everything they can while they still have the votes to do it. Which is not a good sign, because it really shows that our current crop of Republicans are just a bunch of crooks. And we can expect, as a nation, little help from them in righting this sinking ship that is our country.

And then there's the Dems, some of who are just as clueless as the other side...



-------------

Oh, to be sitting on the beach at Koh Samui right now, drinking a Singha and watching the sun set. Actually it's the hot season over there right now... so maybe not...

[sandnsea]

40. I just hope it doesn't fizzle

And yeah, so many scandals, I did the "ABC's of the Bush Scandals" a year or so ago. I could probably create a whole new batch. And yet it just goes on. I have literally scheduled "away from politics" time. A drive every Sunday no matter what, bought a used piano, scheduling daily housekeeping and a daily walk. Otherwise I just get consumed by it. That's no good either.

[beachmom]

16. Per this poll, public still supports NSA program

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2006/05/abcwapo_on_nsa_.html

By all means, analyze away, but I just think most Americans don't have a clue what is in the Constitution, what's at stake, or anything else. This is how I feel about 63% of Americans:

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Well, considering none of them can even find Iraq on a map, I suppose we shouldn't be so surprised.

[sandnsea]

22. Well that's discouraging

I'm going to hope they polled Rexburg Idaho and let it go at that. :)

[ginnyinWI]

26. well don't forget, those people are still trusting * on terrorism

That's their bargain with the devil: they give up their freedom and privacy and they get saved from the terrorists.

We don't trust the Bushies, but some still do on this one issue. When something happens to make them lose that trust then they'll have found their tipping point too.

I don't think this guy (*) would fall on his sword for his party before the election. But if, say, we were to win majorities in both chambers in November, who knows, he might do it. Hard to tell, though.

[sandnsea]

35. That number has dropped too

That was the number that propped him up all these months. The reason he's in a free fall is people aren't even trusting him on terrorism as much anymore. So I don't know that it's so much him as it is still knowing we need to confront terrorism and not seeing a Democrat really rise up to take that particular bull by the horns. Where's the alternative plan on Iran, for instance?? What's the country supposed to think with that recent Iran Freedom resolution, or whatever it was. It's all so frustrating.

[ProSense]

41. This is interesting!

http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/12/bush-league

[ginnyinWI]

46. indeed.

This explains a lot. That dirty....!

[Vektor]

28. Mine is another stolen election, and/or another Bush in the White House.

Or, the overturning of Roe. Any of them, I'm out.

Edit: If my husband isn't convinced by then, he can write me letters in Amsterdam.

[sandnsea]

32. Yeah but I've got this grandbaby see

So I'm kinda hoping we can shake some sense into this country cuz I don't think I'm ever going to be able to leave this face!!

[Vektor]

42. Awww!

He's a cutie!

[karynnj]

43. So adorable - What bright eyes!

[ProSense]

44. Awwww!

The two gloves are bigger than he is. LOL!

[sandnsea]

45. It's the "L'il Cutie" Contest

One of the local photographers does it every year during her slow season. For $25 you get the sitting, I don't know when the costuming started, but it's been that way for the ten years I've been here and long before that. My husband boxed and was a boxing coach, my sons boxed, so she thought it would be cute for a picture.

[ProSense]

29. Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks has reached his!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1172099&mesg_id=1172099

[karendc]

30. been waiting for that tipping point

since I passed mine months ago. Sometime around Jan. 7, 2005.

Anyway, just let us know when you're all ready...we'll buy extra peanut butter.

Heading to the White House this weekend to vigil again, with Code Pink, Iraqi women, Cindy Sheehan, et al. I'll be live blogging as we can, at the DCP. Anyone who wants to, join us!

[sandnsea]

33. Well we need an angle then

This Save the Children report, it says their 85 years has shown them that children do well when moms/women do well. In the US, women are only 15% of the government. In Sweden, the world's leader, women are 45% of the government. The report is the 'State of the World's Mothers'. Maybe US mothers/women can create a unified campaign expressing outrage at the "State of the World", period. Consistent White House vigils, women rising, something to connect all the threads. I know I'm clean across the country, but this just makes me crazy. Do you know England has a solar roof shingle that collects enough energy to run a household? Specifically designed for their weather. California has a company that makes a similar product that will even work under shade trees, but only to be sold in California. What the hell is that?? Instead of building coal plants, why don't we have subsidies for everyone to put these shingles on their houses?? So many things that could be so much better. What are we waiting for!! Why are we fighting wars over a resource we don't even friggin' need anymore. It's just stupid.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?p=35

[karynnj]

34. I actually think the Democrats have to be careful on the NSA program

The NSA is using the call detail reports. These are records that are created primarily for billing purposes by all of the phone companies. Some Democrats spoken of spying on phone calls. People interpret this as listening in, which for the NSA program, they're not. Most people make a huge difference between monitoring call records and listening to calls.

Years ago as an employee of a phone company, I used data mining techniques on this very data. We used it to find good prospects to market programs to. The idea they had of finding additional terrorists by looking at the calls made and received by terrorists is not a bad idea. As long as it's used as input to an investigation rather than as stand alone information. This may not be conceptually different from some of the things on international bank accounts that Kerry recommended to roll up terrorists.

The problem is that it is illegal and rather than go to Congress when they started this - at a time where they could have gotten nearly anything if they arrogantly ignored the law. There are 2 possibilities for why they just did it - they're arrogant or the intent was that the use could be more than the terrorist web one and they didn't want oversight.

Being flat out against the program may be wrong. Insisting that it be done legally with Congress allowing its use ONLY for very specific uses and building a tightly controlled oversight. (these could be things like needing a court to approve the designation of terrorist on the original person and then specifying a minimum connect for others. (ie "Democrat they want to smear" is not a valid terrorist.) They would also have to insure that the data base was used for legal purposes only. Building in safeguards would be tough but I'm sure there are people who could develop them and lawyers who could codify them.)

[sandnsea]

36. Investigations require warrants

Database mining between overseas and US is one thing, the article yesterday was about every US citizen, not just international. So I think it's a really different thing and that the government doesn't have the right to look at my phone records without a warrant or to go on fishing expeditions.

[karynnj]

37. I agree that they need to change the law if they want to do it

all I'm saying is that if safeguards are built in, this type of computer analysis could be very minimally invasive and could find terrorist networks.

It is illegal now.

[ProSense]

38. There is no changing the FISA law to allow it.

It would require amending the Constitution. There is nothing legal about collecting that data on Americans. The Contitution simply doesn't allow it under any circumstance. The NSA has very specific criteria to do warrantless searches when it comes to terrorist activity, and even then they are required to get a warrant within 72-hours. Even in criminal cases, the FBI needs a warrant. There is a full explanation in an article I posted above.