Brief history of worst terrorist country in history: the USA

[FloridaPat]

Of The Evil Empire: Imperialist Devastation of Peoples and the Evils Done in our Names

Rather long article about the people slaughtered by our government or our stooges in other governments over the last 200+ years. Starts with the genocide done to the American Natives, Philippines, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, South America, the Carribean, and today the Middle East.

I've not known about any of this under I started looking around the internet after * got into office. I kneew things were bad in Vietnam, but didn't know how bad. And for some silly reason, I thought we had matured to the point we would go for peace instead of war; unity instead of murder. But on the bright side: we have cheap oil, lots of SUV's, and a TV, computer and Ipod in everyhome.

What is wrong with us as a country?

http://www.altpr.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=575&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[enigma000]

1. Article didn't mention the overthrow of the democratically

elected German government in 1945. Or the invasion of France in 1944. I wonder why.

[DS1]

3. hehehe

[bryant69]

4. Good question

But of course one knows the answer.

The United States has fought both justified and unjustified wars and battles in the time it has been around.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Sparkman]

34. The Nazis were not unlike the NeoCons...election by terror and fear.

[Loonman]

2. USSR was much better

That Stalin was a peach of a guy.

[Dhalgren]

5. Yeah. We're better than Stalin, so we must be ok...

[Loonman]

7. US has done some really awful things

Which we all know about, however, this mentality doesn't help anyone.

[SaveElmer]

6. Sorry but this is just not correct...

Unless you conveniently forget about Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.

[MrBenchley]

10. For all the squawking about DINOs and the like

This sort of overblown silliness from the far left does the Democratic party a shitload more damage than anything centrist Democrats do.

[wuushew]

16. How so?

How many so called moderates are reading this post right now? A philosophical discussion among like minded people is more harmful then the actual pro-corporate and pro-war votes cast by the DLC in the Senate?

[MrBenchley]

24. In every goddamn way

This is no more a "philosophical discussion" than it is a "mint-flavored mouthwash".....

[SaveElmer]

20. It really does...

Just give them talking points they can use. Had the OP wanted to have a rational discussion of AMerican policy through history they would have titled the post differently. Certainly the US is not guilt free in how it has treated others, both here and in other countrie. But the poster obviously wanted a flame war, and that is what they got!

[MrBenchley]

25. Exactly so....

AS you pointed out, one has to be utterly ignorant (or dishonestly ignoring) the history of other countries to spout such silliness.

[seeminer21]

21. True

Let's not give them the "they hate America" ammo they so badly want. This article is crap.

[MrBenchley]

23. Exactly so...

The article shows an appalling ignorance of history...

[High Plains]

33. No reasonable person would blame the Democratic Party

for the rantings of an anarchist like Valenzuela.

....ah, but we're dealing with Republicans.

[rockymountaindem]

60. What you said

This crap offends me both as an American and as someone who actually knows more history than fits on the palm of my hand.

Which way to the gladiator games and the burnings at the stake?

[DELUSIONAL]

8. This country was founded on the blood of the Indigenous people

a few hundred thousand remain of the millions that used to live in what is now the United States.

America has never been made to answer for her history of genocide. Right now China is the only country that might have the power (economic) to bring the US to heel -- but China has her own sorry history of genocide etc.

It really does seem that evil wins ultimately.

Sorry -- to be so pessimistic.

[Loonman]

9. Indigenous people stole the land from those before them

Circle of life, and shit.

[Dhalgren]

11. Look up the word "indigenous"...

[Burning Water]

13. Still, he's right on principle.

The people that were here when Columbus landed were not the first-comers, as archeology is showing, more and more. There is some evidence that both Europeans and Africans were here thousands of years ago, also people similar to Australian aborigines. Google a bit, and learn something.

[Dhalgren]

26. There is no serious scholarship that shows any proof

what-so-ever of any genocidal events having taken place in the "Americas" prior to the Europeans' arrival. That odd groups of this or that people may have migrated or otherwise settled portions of these continents over the millennia is not in question. The "natives" who were here to be slaughtered by the Europeans beginning in the 15th century were generally, and regionally, homogeneous. What their "bloodlines" were is of little or no importance; in 1492 they were sufficiently indigenous to be treated as animals by the Europeans. A behavior that was continued and enhanced by the US. No amount of snarky asides and condescension will wash this blood from American hands.

[Burning Water]

28. Well, then,

what would you call the horrendous human sacrifices and cannibalism of the Aztecs and other Meso-American nations prior to them? What about the Anasazi? Was there no warfare between the tribes of the Plains Indians? Please stop using the little device known as the "denial of the specific". How this works is, for example, the suspect says, "I did not murder Jill Smith on Monday night", when he knows that he did murder her at 12:02AM Tuesday morning. Technically, maybe, true, but in all important respects a lie. This is what you are doing by your denial of "genocidal" events. How, exactly, are you going to define 'genocidal'? There was still warfare, and Native Americans still died, and killed. The Europeans were no worse, morally, than any other conqueror, they were just far, far, better at it. There is no "Noble Savage".

[SaveElmer]

30. Most of what you say is correct...

Doesn't make our behavior noble in any way...

It is hard to make the case that Indian removal from the southeast during the Jacksonian era, exemplified of course by the Trail of Tears experienced by the Cherokee, was anything but ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.

I strongly disagree with the premise of the OP. And I do understand that the first settlers here were behaving no differently than they were used to in Europe. However, the entire premise of the revolution and founding of our country was that we could through the establishment of enlightened institutions go against our basest instincts. Obviously we have not always been successful in that as the Indian Removal policy proves.

[Burning Water]

35. I think, as a country,

that we have made mistakes, many serious mistakes. On the other hand, the premise of the revolution was not the establishment of enlightened institutions to go against our basic instincts. NO. It was the existence of several specific grievances against Great Britain.

Nor were the institutions established to go against our basic instincts. The Founders were intelligent enough men to know that that could not be accomplished without tyranny. A fact that was shown beyond a shadow of any doubt in the horrors of the last century as ideologues took control of country after country and committed murder on a massive scale.

The institutions were set up to establish numerous competing centers of power that would keep each other in check. To the extent that these institutions have been circumvented in recent times, to that same extent have our freedoms and liberties, and, yes, safety, been eroded.

[SaveElmer]

47. The structure of government...

With three co-equal branches was specifially set up to prevent a corruption of power, precisely the type of power they felt they were rebelling against. The Senate was set up to cool the passions of the house. The founders realized that too much power in the hands of one person or institution led to corruption and worked to control it. Abuse of power is a base instinct.

Obviously if one looks at our history in context with the progression of world history we have not done anything other counrties, kingdoms, etc haven't done before. But we like to think we work toward rising above that. The treatment of the Indians was a violation of those principles, and a failure on our part to protect minority rights. There was significant opposition to Indian removal at the time on this very basis.

However, I largely agree that our initial settlement in North America was no different than wars and colonization that had gone on for many many years.

[Dhalgren]

46. You cannot seriously equate "genocide" with "warfare" or even

"conquest". There have been and always will be (I suppose) warfare and conquests, but genocide is something completely different. Also, the use of concentration "reservations" and the ethnic cleansing of whole populations must surely register as somehow different from regular warfare to you, doesn't it? And equating what we would term as barbaric religious and social practices as somehow on a par with racial annihilation is also beneath discussion. Did the victorious North treat the vanquished South after the Civil War in the same way the Whites treated the Natives in the "Indian Wars"? Why not, if it was just "war as usual"?

[Burning Water]

51. Well, I disagree that

the conquest of America was 'genocide'. I have a lot of reasons for this opinion. I don't doubt that there were many whites who thought "the only good Injun is a dead Injun". But reservations are hardly the equivalent of a concentration camp. For one thing, the Native Americans wanted to keep their own cultures. The only way that could be done was to separate. Otherwise, the numerically dominant white culture would wipe out the NA cultures without restraint, but without bloodshed, and without having to try to.

More than white conquest and evil, the thing that killed the Native Americans was disease. I know of many tales of whites throwing smallpox -infected furs to the Indians, or whatever, but I am not aware of any serious research on the subject. Remember, in those days no one, not even the whites, knew what caused disease, either. So many, many unintended infections no doubt took place.

No, I can't equate the sad story of the Native American with the Nazi Holocaust. I think a closer parallel to Nazis would be the Mongols, a non-European people. They would build pyramids with the skulls of the slaughtered inhabitants of the cities they conquered. But even this fails. The Mongols killed, and the Native Americans were killed, basically because they were in the way. The Nazis killed people because of who they were. Both were bad, but there is a definite moral distinction.

[Sparkman]

37. AND in fact most incounters, not all, were peaceful towards the Euro's...

UNTIL they wised up from the racists' campaigns of killing and theft.
The technological superiority of the Euro's is legendary, the original peoples were in the stone age, not using metal, textiles or irregation. Hunter-gatherers besieged by "conquerors" from spain and britian.

[mantrid]

14. Well I guess a lot of American Indians can rest easy in their beds tonight

Knowing it was just the "circle of life" that massacred their ancestors and stole their land...:sarcasm:

[Loonman]

15. So I guess I owe the Clovis people reparations

On behalf of my Indian ancesters who stole their lands and hunted game to extinction.

[High Plains]

36. Way to apologize for one of the great genocides in history.

Ah, the Holocaust, circle of life and shit, right?



on edit: Sorry, Loonman, I'm not stalking you, but when you pop off with ridiculous shit I have to respond.

[Sparkman]

38. So we still should emphasize OUR culpability and nature, explains neo-cons

and chicken-hawk politicians and their war profiteering corporate sponsors goals and acquescence to torture, cluster bombing neighborhoods and loathing of civil liberties.

[manic expression]

61. Oh, give me a break

And you claim to know "history". Get a grip!

The natives of the Americas stole land from other natives? What are you talking about?

Explain yourself, and then I'll actually address such a ridiculous notion.

[Burning Water]

12. It's the nature of

humankind, and will continue long after America is on the dustbin of history.

[Sparkman]

39. civilization's need not resort to beastial impulses, provide a good exampl

of how to conduct ourselves, given our enormous wealth and power. A cop abusing his authority is more guilty of a higher crime than a homeless mom committing the same crime, ethically if not legally.

[Burning Water]

52. Would you care to rephrase

that first sentence? I don't know what you're trying to say.

[Sparkman]

56. The U.S. should avoid war crimes and be a strong ethical example...

Since the wealth and military power of the U.S. is unquestioned and unchallanged. The position of superpower affords the opportunity to refrain from retaliation against evil doers, with collateral damage of innocents around the world.

[Burning Water]

57. Definitely the US

should avoid war crimes. But they are under no more obligation, nor any less, than is everybody else. Relative power has nothing to do with right or wrong.

What good is superpower, or any power, if you can't protect yourself. Bush, however, is going about it all wrong, but I don't generally object to retaliation against evil-doers.

[Sparkman]

64. Simple,"to whom much is given, much is expected" AND keeping what

we have, unlike all the other Imperialists in history that were disolved by their "enemies", will require a healthy world image. When we bomb our way into a countries wealth, natural resources and "good graces", it's not a social science formula that has been successful for very long in the past. Since all other countries look to the U.S. and it's wealth and some 300+ military bases around the world for partnership, if we victimize other countries it will cost us in lost trade and expanded military expenses to fight new enemies. Blood for OIL is exactly the result of not recognizing what diplomats and ambasadors and consultants and CIA advisors tried to show the U.S., that it would cost us dearly. Terrorists will haunt the U.S. citizen from South America to the middle east, thanks to bullying neocon policy. imo, & thanks for you correspondance.

[Burning Water]

67. Please don't

try to impose your religion on me, or use it to make an argument. Thanks

:)
Luke 12:47-48 (King James Version)


47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[Sparkman]

69. The parable pre-dates Bible, the concept is either might is right, and dog

eats dog to determine which country rules over all with much animosity, or the dominant nation is benevolent rather that brutal and mindless military battering of all coming into it's path.
You can characterize the concept as "religion", but I didn't use the saying to MAKE an argument, just to MAKE REFERENCE TO THE reality that bruts like the U.S. funded military operations bring us more harm than we would otherwise have to endure. The nature of my arguement is not religious, and try to help us past this argument phase, to communicate better, please.
peace to you and yours.

[Burning Water]

70. Thanks.

That's very interesting. I did not know that the Bible had plaigiarized the parable from elsewhere. Of course, the concept would not have been new.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version)

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike Daniels]

29. And indigenous people didn't conquer and slaughter each other?

Give me a break. The history of civilization from the get go has involved the conquering of other countries and the slaughtering of people.

One only has to look at the pre-colonial history of the Aztecs and other Indian civilizations in Central and South American to know that they weren't innocents when it came to slaughtering and butchery of other humans.

[Pavulon]

18. Name a country that has a "clean" history. Blah..(nt)

[manic expression]

62. Switzerland?

Seriously, there aren't many. However, one should take a few things into account.

1.) The fact that some histories are less clean than others.

2.) How countries make amends, or at least attempt to make amends, for past wrongs.

That is somewhat important, IMO. Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you.

[Sparkman]

65. maybe we could learn by others imperialist mistakes and avoid the crash

of the U.S. imperialist era. Britian, Germany, France, the Ottomans, RUSSIA have all lost their colonial wealth because they were oppressive.
It's like this, can you remember a brilliant individual that inspired you, maybe to the extent that you wanted to partner up with them in business or civic activities...because they were fair & kind & smart. WELL, who today looks at the Fascist Neo-Conservatives favorably...a missed opportunity that maybe a different foreign policy (from Reagan's Contras to Bush's Curdish militia) could have earned us. just a thought, thanks.

[SaveElmer]

19. Lets get back to the OP...

"Brief History of the Worst Terrorist Country in history: USA"

That is patently wrong and is now the basis for discussion.

Had you wanted a real discussion on the conduct of the US in history and in word affairs you would have titled it differently. What you wanted apparently was a flame war.

[seeminer21]

22. Amen

Thank you

[High Plains]

32. And somebody always jumps at the bait.

[Sparkman]

40. Then do the intelectual exercise, ignore the title& RESPOND to the issue!

We have a responsabilty as thinkers to do what you say, wait a moment, take a breath, post what makes sense. I flame and then cool down, and sorry to be that base. But good stuff comes to those who have patience. And we can have fun too, I do as often as I can.

[High Plains]

42. See my #31 below

for a very brief response. I don't have the time or inclination to get into a debate on the history of US imperialism today.

[qazplm]

27. good grief

amazing. What is it with the belief that we are the worst country in the world among some people?

I understand the kind of reaction one might have to someone who constantly claims our stuff doesnt stink and we have no issues, certainly, those kind of jingoistic types need a dose of reality, but good grief, the worst terrorist country in history???

How about Iran? Or USSR? How about the Roman Empire if you want to talk about a "nation" terrorizing others? How about the Mongols? Heck, if the standard is simply starting wars and slaughtering people, look at Japan in the first half of the twentieth, Great Britain throughout its history, France under Napolean, Spain with its raping and murder of pretty much the entire America's for a time, heck even Portugal and Holland got into the act for awhile.

The Egyptian's subjugated a few people in their time too.

Heck if we are going with tops in history, not sure America even makes the top ten. If you are talking the Phillipines, ask them who they were treated worse by, America or Japan. What genocide did we do to Japan??

Wanna talk about American evils, sure, we've got some, more than any of us would like, but my goodness we arent the most evil nation in history, we DO have one or two things going for us, and it really is ok to recognize that.

[Sparkman]

41. The SLAVERY and the NATIVE PEOPLEs history with U.S. begs to differ.

No other country can match the killing, in modern 20th century world history. ASK Howard ZINN or Noam Chomsky...or am I wrong? What was the Vietnam death toll...how many millions in Cambodia. DROPPING AN ATOM BOMB ON A POPULATION CENTER LIKE NAGASAKI & HIROSHIMA!!!?? At the late stages of the winding down of WWII, that's amazing halocast level attrocity.

[enigma000]

50. Record of the Great Powers - 20th century

Germany
Tried to take world over TWICE.
Killed 10+ million in death camps
Introduced the word genocide to lexicon
Now makes nice cars

Japan
Tried to take world over
Estimated 10 million dead Chinese
Now makes nice cars

Soviet Union/Russia
Tried to take world over
Principle motivator of 40 year nuclear showdown
Estimated 30 million dead
Current exports: oil and mafia

China
Estimate: 50 million dead Chinese
Future: 40 years to #1 economy in world (back to where it was in 1805)

France
Collaborated, accommodated, ignored much of the above
Fought in wars better than commonly known

United States
Destroyed and rebuilt #1 and #2 on this list
Contained, subverted and outlasted #3 on this list
Opened market to free trade with #4 on this list
Should listen to #5 a bit more often
Guilty of numerous smaller offenses and evils

[High Plains]

31. For what it's worth, APR is an anarchist rag

That said, I actually read the article. Rhetorically over the top, but the litany of atrocities committed by this country looks pretty accurate.

The rest of the world knows it, too, even if we wish we could make history go away.

[ZapaPaine]

43. Denial, not a river in Egypt...

Seems to me that many on this thread can't accept the fact that this nation has been the so called Evil Empire during the 20th and now 21st century. Saying it is the most evil of all time is a huge stretch, but I don't think the author thinks this. It is always hysterical to see the denial of people who cannot fathom the atrocities done by their country. As if America is the angelic nation appointed by God. I wonder if you lived in Asia, Latin America, the Middle East and Africa if your perspective would change? I guess we do live in a bubble.

The article seems right on to me, a great critique of what we have done to the rest of the world for our comfortable and overabundant lives. Having lived in Latin America for a number of years I can escape the bubble of denial and nationalism because I have seen the evils this author speaks of. They continue to this day, and if you can't accept the truth of what we do to billions worldwide then you have a lot of growing up to do.

Valenzuela wants us to be aware of what is done in our name so that we may try and better ourselves. Can we not look ourselves in the mirror without authomatically denying what is done in order to achieve all the comforts we have? I suggest reading up on history before you try tarnishing the author's message. Maybe you might even learn a thing or two about a truth too scary to confront.

[Dhalgren]

44. Welcome to DU! And I agree with you right down the line.

Maybe some day the US will quit the practice of extermination of native peoples - economically, culturally, spiritually, as well as physically. But I don't look for it. I think that the US will have to be forcefully stopped, or else simply collapse of its own corruption...

[ZapaPaine]

48. Thanks Dhalgren!! Why is it...

that people of intellect cannot accept what their nation does? Is it denial? Is it nationalistic pride? Is it living in a bubble? Many here fail to recognize that being an evil empire is not just about wars and murders but also about economic, financial and market decimations of people. How many Latin Americans live in poverty because of our policies?

How many people throughout the world have died of malnutrition, disease, famine, poor leadership(thanks to our dictators) over the last 100 years? 50 years? I wonder if people take into consideration the effects of the neoliberalism policies of the World Bank, IMF and WTO (all American controlled)and how many lives have been lost? Millions upon millions is my guess. We have destroyed futures and lives, increasing poverty. Billions are going to be stuck in misery because of what our government and corporate controlled elite do in our name.

There is a reason for the sudden movement to the left in Latin America, and it has everything to do with America. People are tired of being exploited and abused by us.

We are an Empire, and we are Evil..Thus, we are the Evil Empire.

[Karenina]

53. Billions WILL DIE

if PNAC is not excised from the Amurikkkan body politic. The current U.S. *misadministration is destroying America AND the planet. WHAT is NOT TO GET???

[SaveElmer]

45. The OP purposely used a flame bait topic...

No one is suggesting the US is not culpable for many dishonorable acts...but implying we are worse than Hitler and Stalin is just plain stupid...

Had he wanted a serious discussion he would not have used that bullshit title.

[theboss]

49. The British Empire wasn't exactly a model of decorum

Nor the Soviets.
Nor the Chinese.
Nor the Germans.
Nor the French.
Nor the Japanese.
Nor the Dutch.
Nor the Belgians.
Nor the Italians.
Nor the Spanish.

[DrDebug]

54. That's because you can't build an empire without aggression

The most succesful nations have always been aggressive.

Everybody knows about the American Empire and the British Empire and the USSR when it still existed. Many presidents are still jealous of the King of Belgium who had his little private piece of land of approx. 2,500,000 km2 in Africa (about 100 times the size of his native country) which he could rule as absolute monarch. Japan who controlled most of Asia at one time. From a power hungry point of view it seems like aggressive conquest works (for a short period of time, because it never lasts....)

There is only one country which hasn't been aggressive for a long time and that's Switzerland. Even though they killed a couple of million Germans in the Middle Ages they suddenly stopped, but what did the 350 years of peace accomplish? The upside is that the country became very rich. The downside is that it only lead to a country which became more divided internally with a very limited national government and not that important except as a refuge for the rich and famous and international organizations. The accomplishment of 350 years of peace was the cuckoo's-clock.

[enigma000]

55. cuckoo-clock is German, but I loved the speech anyways

http://www.cuckooclocknest.com.au/html/history.html

yeah...those Belgians got off easy in the history books in my opinion.....

[oblivious]

58. I guess it depends how we define 'success' too.

I guess you mean 'success at empire building'.

[fujiyama]

59. If you want to discuss

acts of evil and aggression by the US government, then feel free.

But, the tone of this thread was quite obviously flame bait. The US has a violent and bloody history. Anyone that denies that is a fool.

But it's best to keep all of them in perspective. The US has two major evils that will forever be a stain on its history - the Native American removal/extermination and slavery.

As for US foreign policy, it's likely comparable to most other empires. That doesn't make it clean or right. The US is reponsible for numerous offenses abroad - from Vietnam, to toppling democratic leaders abroad (and the suppression of democracy at home), to the current disaster in Iraq, but I still don't see how this makes it much worse than any other empire in history.

[manic expression]

63. True

Our actions are much like other empires throughout history. From Rome, to Persia, to the Crusaders to the dictatorships of a mere century ago and more. I mean, Europe literally carved up Africa like it was a hunk of meat; those wounds have not yet healed.

I do think that it is a bit on the sad side that we are getting points for being "not so much worse" than other murderous histories, however.

You are definitely right about perspective. The OP was badly mistaken.

Oh, and Eugenics is another huge stain. Also, I would consider many of our actions abroad stains as well, not to mention an almost unbroken policy of elitism.

[fujiyama]

66. Agreed

When I meant "stains", I was mostly referring to the two most heinous crimes the US participated and perpetuated. By far, slavery and the native american extermination are the two greatest. Jim Crow and its legacy are also great crimes, but that once again stems from slavery. The foreign policy crimes are terrible and to the millions of victims of those policies it makes little difference but it would be difficult to argue that the US has had the cruelest foreign policy compared to Nazi Germany or Japan during WWII.

Then again, the US is a young nation with a short history. Unfortunately given time and the type of leadership we have had these last several years, we may yet come to rival those other despotic regimes.

[the_spectator]

68. Fascinating discussion -

and a lot of good posts; I almost want to bookmark this and respond to half of them. But briefly, as I see it, we are talking here about states, about nations, about History - big things that will contain multitudes, of atrocity as well as of justice and progress. And when looking at such big things, such far-reaching, distant prospects, one must have a sense of perspective.

As I see it, the good the United States has done in history (often thanks to simple luck of causes and events rather than out of any inherent goodness) outweighs the bad. We have done a lot of bad things, to be sure. Partially just because a nation-state -- the big, unwieldy, galumphing, brutal thing that it is -- causes a lot of damage. And the United States in terms of power and extent is one of the largest nation-states in history. And partially because history has often been, as Voltaire said, merely a chronicle of crimes and misfortunes.

But I believe that the United States has played a big part, in many ways the major part, in creating a world where nation-states and peoples are less brutal, less destructive and less insular, more peaceful, more productive and more open in fact than at any other time.

That’s perspective. Or at least that’s my perspective. States. Nations. Peoples. History. Such big things. If you don’t climb a mountain to get a better view you can think the dark forest you’re stuck in is all the world. With distance from the view though, you can get perspective, and see that there are dark forests all over, not just the one you’re in. There are open prairies, wide rivers, and broad sunlit uplands too. And with perspective you can see where we were and where we’ve come to as human beings have made their path across this world. We’ve come a long way.

So yes, I guess I have to admit I feel a little :patriot: here.