All progressives must face these simple facts going into the 06 elections

[DeBunk]

Unless Democrats win at least one chamber of congress in the 2006 election all this is for nothing. Bush will hunker down and wait for the end of his term. He will never face investigation or impeachment.

All our attention must be directed at winning at least one chamber or there will be no subpoenas, no investigations, no impeachment.

[AX10]

1. I agree.

Realistically, it would be the House with a 50/50 nominally GOP Senate.

[stepnw1f]

2. That's Ok

I have plenty of salt for the slugs.

[babylonsister]

3. We know that. We are just being 'we', full of opinions, solutions,

and not a lot we can do until this year when I pray the Dems will do something. But face it, hands have been tied.
VOTE for Dems in 06, individually and not just sweep the Dem ticket, hope kinks are ironed out enough so the votes aren't stolen again; it's SO important!

[mike_c]

4. and so it starts-- "progressives need to face simple facts...."

I have said for the last couple of election cycles that centrist dems are quite happy to accept the support and the votes of progressive dems, greens, and etc, but one thing you can absolutely rely on is that they will never return the favor. Now, after many MANY greens abandoned their own party's 2004 candidate to offer support for the dem centrist candidate, after many progressive democrats held their noses and supported the centrist candidate when their hearts cried out for a progressive like Kucinich, now-- when one might have hoped that centrists might respond to that support by asking HOW THEY CAN NOW SUPPORT PROGRESSIVES, now we begin to hear anew the call for progressives to once again "face simple facts."

Fuck your simple facts, sir. I am SO tired of being asked to sell out in the name of centrist political expediency. Centrists are the folks who brought us the current spineless Congress. No thank you-- if you won't vote for a change, be assured that I will!

[DeBunk]

7. Sooo because there are moderates in the party

we just hand the house to the Republicans.

I don't get the logic. I'm not that much of an idealogue I guess.

These guys are raping the treasury, destroying the middle class, and waging illegal wars. Can't we at least stop them and then argue about the future of the party?

It's kind of like telling the cop who is dragging the mugger off you to stop because his uniform isn't blue enough.

[Squeech]

10. No

It's like the cop helped the mugger beat you up, and is now acting all pissy because you won't buy his tickets to the Policemen's Ball.

Or have you forgotten: the bankruptcy bill, the Alito nomination, the Patriot Act renewal, and all the other profoundly anti-American horseshit that's been foisted on us with the active cooperation of the moderate Dems?

Plus the optics of moderation suck. Voters may be sick of the Repuke culture of corruption, but they want fighters in office, because there really are enemies out there (as well as in here).

[DeBunk]

11. I'm sorry, reality is what it is

Lemme ask you a question:

Do you think the Christian coalition debates whether or not to vote in elections?

The answer is very simple, they get pandered to because they vote....they don't vote because they get pandered to.

This is what politics is. It's the same in every country and in every system.

The corrupt want power so they can practice corruption.

It's time to be adult about it. If we do not vote in a block we do not have any power.

Half of us don't even vote.

[Squeech]

20. Actually

the Christian Coalition does debate whether to vote.

That's why the Bushies always, always, always pander to them. And at this point the pandering is no longer enough-- they're calling in their markers, they *demand* the overturning of Roe v. Wade that Karl Rove and Lee Atwater and whoever pulled the strings for Ronald Reagan have been promising them, and never actually delivered.

And that's why the Repukes are in trouble now. Their coalition comes in three pieces: the corporate ravagers, the PNAC, and the theocrats. And policy for this administration has meant balancing out their interests, or coming up with schemes where there's some plum for all of them (e.g. the Iraq war, a PNAC initiative that they put over by offering lucrative no-bid contracts to the corporatists and heathens for Christian missionaries to attempt to convert, plus an attempt to strengthen Israel).

But now it's increasingly obvious that their various goals have diverged. Businesses procuring hookers for legislators doesn't sit well with Jesus. OTOH, once the theocrats actually get their ban on abortion, they're going after contraception, which has been real lucrative for Big Pharma.

Normal people are horrified by all these interest groups, but see too many Democrats willing to continue to sell us out to them.

[DeBunk]

27. No....

They debate who to vote for.

Not whether or not to vote.


See McCain pander, see Juliani not. McCain will get the Christian Coalition vote.

They vote, they always vote, he wants thier vote. It's not he other way around.

[Perky]

26. Spot On!

I will vote for ANY DEMOCRAT anytime. to get the GOP out of power. That is far more important to the future of this country then liberal litmus tests.

DEMS have historically been the melting pot party since the Depression. You may not like it. But we had to contend with Dixiecrats for any number of years and the they have been replaced electorally by suburban voters. If you do not appeal to them.. Excite them....you can not take back either the congress or the House.

In spite of moderate to conservative politics the party still managed to nominate Stevenson and Kennedy and LBJ and Humphrey. Simple because there is a moderate block within the party does not mean progressive can't get their favorite sons at the top of the ticket.

Or in full control of the House.

[katinmn]

14. People have more real choices this year. Let's see if we learned

anything about voting for the lesser of two evils or voting our values and conscience. If we don't, we may lose TWICE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2602398&mesg_id=2602398

Secretary of State Matthew Brown's exit from the U.S. Senate race in Rhode Island Wednesday had the air of a coronation of former state Atty. Gen. Sheldon Whitehouse. Mr. Brown called Mr. Whitehouse "the next senator from Rhode Island." New York Sen. Charles Schumer, chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, said Mr. Brown's departure "takes us one step closer in our quest to pick up seats in the Senate this year."

There's just one glitch: The voters will actually get a say in this thing!

The Democratic frontrunner still has primary opposition from Carl Sheeler, a businessman and retired Marine officer, who is pushing for George W. Bush's impeachment and calls Mr. Whitehouse "the ultimate political insider."

snip

But there's a long road ahead until the voting takes place (primary election, Sept. 12; general election, Nov. 7), with many twists and turns. After the well-heeled contributors and political operators have done their best (or worst), the voters of Rhode Island will get their say.

[ShortnFiery]

15. Yes, and don't forget the Centrists gave us the

Corporate Loving Bankruptcy Bill. Both Gore and Kerry were far FAR from my first choices, but I gave in for "the good of the party."

What has the party done for Liberals. Nothing. Nope, I'm voting my conscious.

[DeBunk]

29. Oh me Oh my all is lost

Let's just give up and let them have the rest.

Sure, it will be easier that way. We wont have to fight, we wont have to vote, we wont have to read.

We can just sit around and bitch.....

[Tesha]

33. Kinda like now? (NT)

[Mandate My Ass]

34. Unless and until the dem leadership demands paper trails

and auditable voting equipment, all any of us are going to be able to do is sit around and bitch.

There were no "shy Bush voters" or a sudden influx of "security moms" and "values voters" switching sides from "D" to "R" in '04, these were inventions of the corporate media to explain another presidential election theft in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The exit polls were right, Kerry won.

In PA they're trying to shove Iraq-war loving, anti-choice, pro-Alito Casey down our throats as the only possible chance to beat Santorum. I say bullshit. Let the people decide in the primaries. Centrist dems don't win in PA. We have a pro-choice gov and one pro-choice Republican as US senators, so this centrist-pandering shit is just that, shit.

[DeBunk]

40. The centrists do not control this Congress. The hard right does.

We have displaced our enemy.


I'm a moderate democrat...so what? Am I your enemy. No, the far right is.

The far right controls this congress.

Anyway the party has solid people in it and we should rally around them.

Ted Kennedy did not vote for the Iraq war, neither did Boxer.

What about Russ Feingold, John Conyers, and John Murtha?

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Tesha]

16. As I've said... "If you keep holding your nose...

As I've said... "If you keep holding your nose and
voting for the D just because they're a D, the D's
will just keep delivering up increasingly stinky
candidates".

If we want the party to pay any attention to us,
we have to, sooner or later, demonstrate that there
are limits on the type of candidate we will hold our
noses and vote for.

I'm sorta hoping that the Lieberman battle in CT
brings this message out loud-and-clear. If we're
lucky, the message will come out in the primary.
If not, it might come out in the general election
to the Democrat's disadvantage.

Tesha

[DeBunk]

25. How far has your strategy gotten us?

It's a fair question isn't it?

How far has the strategy of defeat gotten us. How much representation has not voting won you?

[Tesha]

30. I dunno; most of us have kept holding our noses...

> How far has your strategy gotten us?

I dunno; most of us have kept holding our noses
and voting for the D, no matter how much they
stunk. I wasn't going to do it in 2004, but
at the last moment, I did. And the D, as thanks,
gave up and conceded to *THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER*.

So perhaps I won't be convinced to hold my nose
in the future.

Maybe I'll actually *IMPLEMENT* the strategy
I'm discussing.

Tesha

[LaPera]

5. Social Security privatization will occur w/ another republican majority!!

Bush will have nothing to lose...and the republicans just want to get their foot in the Social Security door, very minor at first, they will accept anything, they just need to get in the door, even if it's only privatizing one dollar, as long as they get legislation passed they are in the door... So down the line, they can slowly destroy Social Security year after year until its completely corporate run, i.e. privatized!!

Thatll be the cherry on top for BushCo’ eight year administration...Republicans have hated and despised the "New Deal" from its inception...Not one republican ever voted for it and secretly & not so secretly they have vowed to take it apart and destroy it!

Unfortunately, the more I read and listen the more I believe the republicans will steal this election with their electronic voting machines...they can be tampered with and votes can be changed so easily and with no paper trail... and that's the way the republicans want it...Shit, the republicans own the machines.

[mike_c]

6. it's always something, every damned election....

It's always "we can't afford to be progressive THIS year-- we need to win this one first." I was a progressive dem for thirty voting years, and I've seen this pattern repeated EVERY SINGLE ELECTION. There's always some crisis that makes THIS YEAR too important to risk alienating the mushy middle. Has anyone stopped to wonder whether that's what's gotten us into the sorry state we're in today?

[DeBunk]

9. I bet you don't even vote

I get so called "progressives" complaining about the party all the time.

Do you even vote?

Cause if you don't vote...polititians won't listen to you.

[charlie]

32. Stow that shit, tough guy

You don't have cause or the place to sling charges like that around.

[Tesha]

17. I don't wonder about it at all. :-(

> Has anyone stopped to wonder whether that's
> what's gotten us into the sorry state we're
> in today?

I don't wonder about it at all. :-(

People will always vote for someone with convictions
over someone who's just wishy-washy, even if they
disagree with the guy's convictions.

Modern DLC-loving Democrats stand for nothing, and
lots of people have figured this out.

Tesha

[DeBunk]

21. Many of the DINOs are facing primary challenges

I honestly can't see how many don't recognize this turning point.

Sure, it's not going to be prefect. Nothing ever is.

But, this is the biggest opportunity for liberals and progressives in my lifetime.

I for one am not going to surrender to fear and loathing.

It's better to fight and lose then to lie down and die.

[DeBunk]

8. that's a fact

Continued rape of the tresury. Blind stay the course in Iraq. The continued destruction of the Constitution.

[wiggs]

12. Bush won't hunker down

Can you imagine the last two years of his presidency with both houses intact for GOP? It's not just that he won't be impeached...it's that we'll see fundamental battles in all policy areas against democracy, fairness, progressive thinking, science, transparent government, environment, middle class, justice, and peace. I can't imagine that those who have worked so hard for so long and who have invested so much will be willing to waste two free years of control. Bad, bad news. Worse than we've seen so far.

Having said that (slightly OT), I'll say that I've been deeply disappointed in most DC Dems that that they have been and continue to be part of the problem. It's a tough problem...I don't know how to fix it by Nov 06, but I appreciate hearing thinking from both sides of the moderate/progressive issue.

[DeBunk]

18. We understand what's at stake

The very survival of the Constitution.

[ShortnFiery]

13. What about us LIBERALS?

The term "progressive" is not something I choose to associate myself with - for I'm an unabashed, dyed in the wool LIBERAL, now and forever. :hi: :patriot:

[DeBunk]

19. Good for you!!

Do you vote?

[ShortnFiery]

24. Absolutely ... I've even volunteered at my local Democratic

Party Headquarters. Tks. :hi:

[DeBunk]

28. Friggin awesome!!

I've been doing precinct walks for Busby.

I've never been more hopefull that we can effect real change in my life.

I don't get what all these doomsayers are talking about. The Repubs are in the low 30%. The country is ripe to hear our message. All we have to do show that we are a voting block.

[ShortnFiery]

35. Excellent! You're out there with us :-)

I have to admit that after the 2000 election was stolen was WHEN I became involved. Before then, I just would make sure to learn the issues/candidates and vote each time I had the opportunity.

But yes, we're psyched! No need for pep talks Dems, Greens, Progressives, Liberals = all of the foregoing KNOW that this election is the Alpha and Omega for the continuation of our blessed Democratic Republic. If the Republicans win ... it's just to horrid to even consider - we (DEMS) MUST WIN!

Aside - Thank goodness that I don't have tough DINO folks to consider voting for - so I'm lucky. ;)

[LeftHander]

22. So do they still vote for Joe then...?

Or do the progressives and democrats in his home state get to elect a REAL democrat?

As long as Democrats present themselves as democrats and represent my values I will vote for them 100%...pander to the right and coporate interests I have no interest in supporting them.

[DeBunk]

23. ....

They pander to those interests because those people diliver money and votes.


They would pander to us just like that, if we could deliver votes and money.

[Clark2008]

37. Actually, liberals and progressives DO deliver votes, but

your average working man and woman cannot compete, moneywise, with corporations to deliever money.

Which, is part of the problem.

I always contend on this board that the DLC is NOT moderate - they're in it for the corporate money. Their stances aren't necessarily moderate and we can have moderate Dems who are in no way, shape or form associated with the DLC, you know.

The DLC = corporate, NOT moderate.

[LeftHander]

38. Good points...campaign finance reform....

we are well past the time to take the "corporation" out of campaign finance.

[DeBunk]

41. Agreed

The problem is that you have to pass a law that makes that happen.

You cannot do this unless Democrats control congress.

[DeBunk]

31. Sorry to post and run

I'll try and get back to this thread later.

I'm starting to understand why we lose elections.

Our people have got the principle of American politics ass backward.

They follow us! If we lead they will follow us! As long as we don't vote, as long as we wallow in defeat, they will do what other voting blocks want them to do.

We must lead them, not the other way around.

They pander to votes, not to anger.

[BlooInBloo]

36. The great lie... over and over...

That a fight is only worth "something" if you win.

It's hard to exaggerate the magnitude of that lie. And history is replete with examples of its falsity.

By easy-to-understand metrics, Galileo "lost" to the evil church. His fight was not all "for nothing". Who was that black dude who went to the SCOTUS asking for standing to sue, and lost (back in the good 'ol slave days)? He lost, yet his fight was not all "for nothing". And so on. Hell - the old man in the Scarlet Letter "lost" - again, by easy-to-understand metrics. His fight was not all "for nothing".

Moral challenges have an INTRINSIC value, which is NOT affected by the outcome.

Semi-relevant: the best thing I've ever heard written on competition I saw on my Jr. High lockerroom wall:

About winning and losing: It doesn't matter, it's how you play the game.
About playing the game: play to win!

[DeBunk]

39. Very well put

I agree totally.