Poor America, Dumb America

[Katherine Brengle]

Poor America, Dumb America: The Mad Infinite Interconnectedness of Everything

Until recently, I accounted myself a die-hard liberal--a full tilt leftist ideologue. I was anti-gun, pro-choice, antiwar, anti-big business, pro-government programs, anti-free trade, etc, etc, etc... Now, I am still most of these things, to one degree or another. I am still pro-choice, antiwar, and anti-free trade. I think that to be otherwise would be to advocate harming other human beings by choice, and I can't live with that. But I have found myself shifting gears on a lot of traditional left-right split issues... not necessarily to the right, but away from the left. Currently, one thing is really ticking me off--the poor financial choices of most Americans.

I am twenty-four years old. My husband is also twenty-four, and we have a two-year old daughter. Today, we sat down and looked at our finances, and at first things looked pretty bleak. My husband is a police officer and a Marine Corps reservist, and I am a full-time mom and freelance writer. For our ages, and our geographic location, we do pretty well financially. The median annual household income in our city is just over $29,000 and ours is around $40,000--but we are in debt, and I couldn't really understand why. Aside from our collective college debt, there was really no reason for us to be behind on any of our bills, much less ALL of them.

So I pulled out our bank statement, and added up all of the unnecessary spending we have done in the last month--shopping trips, eating out in restaurants and ordering in, renting movies and whatnot. Since April 1st, we have spent a whopping $1,372.80 on crap we never needed. We have paid exactly 0 bills in that time.

What the hell were we thinking? And why I am telling you all of this?

Now, I know that a lot of Americans are legitimately struggling to make ends meet, without anything extra. But it's time for all of us to wake up a little bit when it comes to unnecessary spending. I see two major problems with the concept of poverty we have here in the United States. First of all, we (and by we, I mean Americans in general) have made it respectable to be poor in this country. There is no shame in poverty, even if said poverty is caused by a refusal to go out and take a job. Second, most Americans living under the federal poverty line (and remember, this is not ALL, but MOST) live in relative comfort--meaning, they have a warm place to sleep, clothes on their backs, food to eat, cable and internet and a car, and a few bucks "left over" to have fun.

This lifestyle may well be a facade, because these people live like the majority of the rest of the American people--like me and my family in fact. We are a nation of people living beyond our means. For example, so-called "poverty stricken" Americans are extremely likely to have cell phones (2 out of 3 Americans own cell phones, and this does not take adolescents into account). That's $50 or so every month that each of these Americans could be putting in the bank and putting toward paying off debts. Most Americans living in what we consider poverty have credit cards. I'm not talking about those suffering from extreme poverty, our brethren living in shelters and alleyways. I'm talking about the Americans most of us progressives spend a lot of our time worrying about--people living in inner cities and trailer parks and government subsidized housing.

Frankly, I'm getting a little fed up with the politically correct requirement set upon me by my contemporaries to feel bad for ALL poor people. I am fairly poor--and no one should feel sorry for me--it was my own doing, 100%. When I see most "poor" Americans, all I feel is disdain. I see people who don't understand the promise of living in a country where, even if you are born poor, you have opportunities unheard of in much of the world. (You may not have the same opportunities as a George W. Bush or his oil baron brethren, but there are still opportunities available to most of us to better our lot in life.) I see people who choose to throw money away buying things and services they don't need instead of saving for themselves and their children. I see people who have been living their lives exactly as I have been living mine--without a thought for tomorrow, without a sense of personal responsibility or what it means to be a productive citizen.

I see selfishness. I see short-sightedness. And I see ignorance to the nth degree.

And I'm sick of feeling bad about it.

Here's my solution: I want to make financial planning classes mandatory for all American high school students and I want it to be mandatory ALL four years. I want the United States public education system to start teaching our kids things they really need to know to succeed in life. IRA, 401K, and mutual fund should all be SAT words. Our kids should be able to understand the interest rates they are agreeing to pay on credit cards and loans. Of course, this is a lofty goal when we take into consideration that most parents don't really understand the finer nuances of personal finance.

I think that teaching the next generation to budget whatever money they DO have, pay their bills on time and consistently, avoid unnecessary credit card and loan debt, and prioritize their expenses, we could completely change the face of our economy.

In addition to that, we need to reformat the entire public education system and recreate it as it ought to be. Our schools still focus mainly on the skills we needed to succeed in the world 100 years ago--reading, writing, and math on a basic level. Today our kids need serious computer skills--not typing class and Excel, but programming and repair skills as well. Our kids need to be able to read techno-jargon and communicate in multiple languages. Without revamping education, there is no long-term hope for the economy. Skills-based jobs will continue to fly overseas, and unskilled service industry jobs will multiply until there are no Americans left who can afford to buy those services.

So, if that makes me a right-wing ditto head (and I don't think it does), then so be it. I think it's time for all of us to start coming up with some serious solutions instead of expressing our feelings of solidarity with the homeless by sleeping overnight in a cardboard box. Feeling sorry for the truly poor isn't going to save them--those feelings must translate into action--and better for that action to be preventive, rather than curative.

I am all for lending a hand to neighbors in need. I am all for making sure every American citizen has access to a good, free education and healthcare and housing. I just want ALL Americans to make an effort--sometimes you don't succeed--it happens. Sometimes you get a tough break--we all do now and then, some more than others.

Should those of us who are doing our best, trying to do the right thing and be responsible--should we be paying for the mistakes and bad choices of others? Should we be paying for these things any more than we should be paying for a war we oppose, or fueling the coffers that dole out corporate welfare, or the salary of a president who makes our blood curdle?

I say the answer is no.

Now, let's give Americans the tools and information they need to live up to their responsibilities.

[Skittles]

1. all I can say is

when I was 24 I didn't HAVE the money to spend on "unnecessary crap" and that in itself meant I could not get a credit card

[SoCalDem]

15. I was always taught the PBF rule, and had had to live by it

PayBillsFirst.. I knwo that financial advisors all say PayYOurselfFirst, and that's all well and good, but we always had more or less fixed bills, so I would actually write out the checks and subtract them all on the first of the month, so we never had to worry if we had enough to pay the bills.

Since we were both salaried, the paychecks were always the same, so it was not all that hard..

I also estimated the bills.. If the electric bill was usually 75-100, I always made the check out for 125, so it was always a bit more than we owed.. Over time, we would have enough to skip a payment.(I coordinated it to happen in November..birthdays & Xmas)

Once the bills were all made out and I could see what we had left over, it made it easier to "just say no"..

I must say that from year 4 of our marriage, we were paying off Mayo Clinic for our share of soome pretty pricey medical care for our son..That lasted over 10 years straight, so we always had to make sure we had extra set aside for an emergency trip, sometimes lasting 6-8 weeks..

This family danced on the edge of a butcher knife for decades, and it rubbed off on my kids.. They PBF too..

[Katherine Brengle]

32. Your system sounds very wise--this is what we have decided to do as well--

once the bill checks go out, a little bit of what is left is for us and the rest gets rolled over to the next cycle.

[EstimatedProphet]

2. Well, we do have problems like you say

and Americans have been brainwashed into consumerism. Nevertheless, the real problem isn't that there's poverty, it's that the poverty class is growing at the expense of the middle class. And that is due solely to the corporatist administration we've had in office since 2001.

[The Magistrate]

3. Economic Literacy Classes, Ma'am

Would be a very good idea: it is hard to name one item that would have so great and salutory an effect, and in so many ways. One problem with the proposal, though, is that a tremendous portion of the system around us is dependent for its function on widespread ignorance of how money works, and what the best choices with it are. Much that many depend on for their livings would grind to a halt if good sense became much more widespread. On an even deeper level, real knowledge of financial matters would quickly overthrow one of the core illusions of our system, namely the charming delusion held by so many that they are middle class bourgeois persons, rather than peasants teetering at best on the edge of debt slavery. A great deal of the foolish spending you have described is made in pursuit of that delusion, to feel the pretense of bourgeois status as a reality, and display it as a fact, rather than the fantasy it is. If the great preponderance of the people actually understood their real position in the system, they would be enraged, and unlikely to tolerate it for a minute with the franchise available to alter their condition. Our society depends on successful mass marketing of the colossal swindle that everyone is a bit above average, like the children of Lake Woebegone....

[question everything]

18. And as our economy is more than two third service oriented

if all of us will spend only on necessities, we will bring this country to a severe recession.

Remember Bush I going out to purchase a pair of socks, to boost the economy?

Remember when Bush II giving us $300 and $600 in the summer of 2001 so that we would go out and spend it? Now, this was one time when most of us showed more maturity and we paid our bills.

Hey, if we don't go out and shop this means that the "terrorists won" right?

[sendero]

29. Well said..

... on the other hand, I would love nothing more than to see Americans become financially literate and have the discipline to never pay ridiculous credit card interest rates again, put the "rent to own" places out of business, force "buy-here-pay-here" lots to offer decent interest rates, and in general thumb their noses at all of the feel-good schemes that are so effective at separating them from money they don't have to separate from.


Nothing would engender corporate responsibility faster than a savvy, disciplined consumer.

[The Magistrate]

30. Thank You, Sir

Always a pleasure to find points of agreement with you.

Credit card interest in particular is outrageous; those are rates that in my youth were barred as usurious. "Pay-day loans" are even worse; they would embarrass a vigorish man....

[Union Thug]

4. Why of course we overspend..that's what they're counting on..

As I've harped on relentlessly, americans are brainwashed to believe that life does not have meaning beyond owning the latest gadgets and worthless crap. And contrary to popular opinion, this is exactly where we are supposed to be, at least in the eyes of the right. Don't let the reality of your shitty wages and benefits fool you, there are always creditors happy to lend you money - especially those that deal in plastic prosperity who can charge you interest rates that would make the mafia blush. The best part is, once you've eaten of the fruit, you become enslaved to your debt and far less likely to do horrible things like shaking the status quo by demanding better working conditions, for example.

Yes, most americans do overspend. But they are not soley responsible for it (as much as convential wisdom might insist); instead, you need to address the social conditions that foment this bizarre consumerism. But don't plan on changing anything. Without the false-prosperity created by credit enthrallment, a large part of the american economy would shrivel and die.

[Katherine Brengle]

33. Correct--

but waiting for the institutions to change to save us... don't hold your breath.

People have to stop paying into that system, and stop thinking they are taking advantage of it when it is really taking advantage of them.

Credit cards are probably the worst thing ever invented... after nuclear weapons I guess... though they (credit cards) have a negative effect on far more people imo.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. Your post made me think of a certain type of people

I call them the $50,000 millionaires. They make a fairly good living but live waaaaaay above their means. This is not helped by the recent spate of refinancings and interest-only mortgages. They think they can continue to use their houses as equity ATM machines indefinitely in order to purchase the flat screen TVs, gadgets, furniture, new car, boat, etc., that they HAVE to have to keep up with what they think their neighbor has. Oh yeah, and they mostly vote Republican because that's how 'rich' people vote and that's what they think they are.

I had to take the same hard look at my finances a couple years ago and make some drastic changes. In addition to the non-essential expenses you cited, I noticed I spent a lot of money on maintaining my appearance. And I'm a pretty natural gal for the most part. I don't even go in for all the manicures, professional dye jobs, and pricey hair and skin products that I see my friends plunking down a good percentage of their paychecks for. But it shocked me to see how much I did spend. It's taking a lot of discipline for me to resist the urge to go out and buy the latest fashions. These days, I'm a regular fixture at thrift and consignment shops. I spend less money, and feel good about reusing items rather than perpetuating wasteful production and consumption.

[niyad]

9. Welcome to DU!! like you, thrift stores and consignment shops and the

like are my favourite places to shop. much easier on my purse to pay .99 for an article of clothing than some of the absolutely absurd prices in the department stores (and most of that stuff is so poorly made, it won't last past a season anyway)
my friends continue to be amazed at my ability to use coupons, as well. I pay virtually nothing for personal care items (one of our local chains does double coupons, although not as well as southern california) and I wait for those items to go on sale. although I buy very little in the way of convenience/packaged/prepared foods, I still manage to make good use of coupons. and really good buys on the above convenience foods go into the collection boxes for the food drives.
if one is not using credit cards, one is not likely to overspend. if the cash isn't there, one cannot buy. amazingly simple.

[cap]

34. can you give me some good leads on coupons?

I could use coupons on personal care stuff...

A lot of food stuff for coupons is on highly processed foods that I dont eat. I cook from scratch and can and could use coupons on basic foodstuffs. Although in season I am eating from local farms... so some basic foodstuffs are taken care of already.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi thecatburglar!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

6. Fed up with political correctness?

:D Click here to become a Republican! :D

[Lady Effingbroke]

11. lol!

:thumbsup: :D

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

13. a much more succinct response than I had in mind

I too find it hard to feel sorry for middle-class people who buy more crap instead of paying their bills. But that's not what creates extreme poverty - which is not the same as financial struggle.

The OP projects her self-disgust over her lack of discipline on a wide range of people she presumes are poor for equivalent reasons. But the poor are not playing on the same field as the financially struggling, who often benefit from upbringings marked by good education, proper nutrition and health care, adult supervision, and career opportunity. It serves no good purpose to disdain the truly poor for bad choices when the deck is stacked against them from the start. Before giving them tools to help themselves we need to address neglectful parenting, substandard education, lack of health care leading to chronic mental and physical illness, and substance abuse. Otherwise they'll be less able to use the tools, indeed will have dropped out of school before the tools are even offered to them.

Middle-class people slide into debt because of bad budgeting and impulse buying, but it takes a health or job crisis to plunge them into real poverty. I reserve the right to feel empathy for them, and for the truly poor.

[orwell]

7. Frankly...

...it has little to do with means and everything to do with methods. The reason that the "less affluent" can exist in the United States "in relative comfort" is because they are indirect beneficiaries of Empire. I'm sure the lower class Roman did a lot better than the average Visigoth, mostly because of the gallons of blood spilled for the glory of the Imperium.

That many live beyond their means is apparent in the public and private debt statistics. It is appalling. But what of it when the bill never comes due?

I'm afraid that changing the educational system will do nothing. Until there is a need to change, usually forced by external calamity, most will go merrily whistling past the graveyard, rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenberg. The best you can do is change yourself, as this is where all true revolutions begin. When the infidels inevitably storm the gates, at least the fall from "God's grace" won't be as calamitous if you are already sitting on the ground.

I have been rich and poor. I'd rather be happy...

Don't feel bad...maybe just feel a little compassion for all the inmates of this asylum...

[Elwood P Dowd]

8. I was making $120.00 a month in the US Army at age 24.

Didn't have to worry about budgets or credit cards. My only worry was would I stay in the States or get shipped off to 'Nam.

[JeffR]

10. Thoughtful post & well said, but I disagree on one point

The education system needs to be revamped, certainly, but the focus needs to be on teaching critical thinking skills and polite skepticism. If that happened, fewer young people would fall into the traps you mention.

The inability to think critically leads people to vote for candidates they want to have a beer with, creates a ready-made flock for lying televangelists and Limbaughfiles, and allows the government, big bidness and a host of hucksters to lead people by the nose (and not just economically speaking).

[senseandsensibility]

53. Good post

And as a teacher, I agree entirely.

[Katherine Brengle]

72. Excellent point

I absolutely agree.

[Autonomy]

12. Three names: Clinton, Gore, Kerry. These were the men asking

these same questions, and providing specific solutions. But we have Dumbya, who doesn't understand the question, much less have answers.

Btw, I must be living in an alleyway, because I can't get a credit card. Or a job for that matter. Am I selfish, short-sighted, or ignorant? Will you bother to step over me if I end up in a cardboard box? I'd hope for at least that much compassion.

Which, I think, is part of what you lack. The other part is understanding. Not everyone has had the gifts you've been fortunate enough to receive: the ability to get an education, get a job, find a spouse, keep a house, have a family.

There's something called Attribution Error in psychology. It says, basically, that we tend to ascribe our own shortcoming to situational factors, and others' shortcomings to innate factors. IOW, we make excused for ourselves and blame others.

John Rawls posits a theory of justice based on fairness. Fairness, he describes, is illustrated by the hypothetical choice made from behind the "veil of igorance". He states that every reasonable person, if given the chance to design a society without knowing where in that society he or she will be placed, and without knowing what physical and intellectual gifts he or she will be born with, every reasonable person would choose to create a society based on a compassionate equality.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to be concerned, or that your solutions are bad ideas. But the fact that you seem so frustrated by the eternal problem of poverty and think it can be solved with a few high shool classes is not especially astute. Perhaps you're a bit too close to your own problems to see how the other 99.99999% live. Just a thought.

[sandnsea]

22. On that order

I watched a program a few years ago about the attitudes of people who were financial successes and failures. The successes saw adversities as bad luck and successes as their own doing. Failures saw it the opposite; adversities were their own doing and successes were just luck. I think that probably fits in with your Attribution Error somewhere, I imagine. Anyway, I thought it was interesting because one of the things they "teach" people about success is that you're responsible for your success or failure. And yet, apparently, wealthy people don't spend any time at all blaming themselves when things go wrong. No wonder people like Tom Delay can just pick right up and open a consulting business while being under indictment. He's just run into a little bad luck is all, apparently.

[Sinti]

14. Financial management would be a good mandatory class for high schoolers

However, you are not poor by any stretch - not even relatively poor. You make nearly 4 times the poverty line for 2 people.

Those Americans living under the federal poverty line cannot really afford to pay rent. $8,980 = poverty line - $748 mo total. $450 per month is lowest I've seen and I live in a very affordable area in ID. In VA you couldn't have rented a parking space for that much.

"Feeling sorry for the truly poor isn't going to save them--those feelings must translate into action--and better for that action to be preventive, rather than curative." I absolutely agree with this statement.

"Skills-based jobs will continue to fly overseas" - they will continue to do so regardless of our education system, due to the cost of labor. They didn't leave because we didn't have enough skilled folks here, we just demanded far too much. Labor, even skilled labor, is a commodity now. If all of our youth graduated from college with doctorates, the average pay of an individual with a Ph.D. would drop dramatically. It's a false premise that we've been fed.

I don't agree, either, that poverty due to a refusal to take a job is not, or should not be shameful. People should feel obligated to try to take care of themselves. Right now, that's not really a problem. Finding a job that pays enough to keep gas in your car is a bigger problem.

BTW, I didn't think with the end of welfare as we know it that the responsible folks were paying for the mistakes and bad choices of others so much anymore. I thought they implemented workfare and term limits for being on the rolls and all that. Am I wrong?

[Katherine Brengle]

31. I know I shouldn't be broke--this was the point--

I, like many many other Americans, have lived irresponsibly when it comes to financial matters.

Most Americans, from EVERY income range, are doing the same thing.

[conflictgirl]

69. And you are sure of that, how?

Stop projecting your own financial wastefulness onto the poor and assuming that because you do something, everyone else does too.

[Katherine Brengle]

73. Okay, I'll stop when you stop assuming that no one is at fault for their

own bad financial situation.

I won't hold my breath :).

[sandnsea]

16. You're not poor

Excuse me, try raising your one child on $800 a month and then get back to me. Obviously many median income families live beyond their means, and our kids should have more financial education; but to equate your lifestyle to the truly poor in this country, well it's a crock. And that's putting it mildly. I would also imagine that a cop has health insurance and other benefits, so calculate that into the economics of other families with the same income you have who don't have any of that.

You may need to get your economic shit together, but don't presume every family living on $40,000 and below is pissing away $1300 a month. They aren't.

[hfojvt]

20. most people tell me that they CANNOT

live on what I make (or at least what I made in the past (about $12,000 a year) and yet I was doing it, and paying for a fair amount of luxuries too. Fortunately, I stayed fairly healthy.

[sandnsea]

21. In Kansas??

By yourself? I can imagine living on that in Kansas, where I could walk to work and considered a movie and a pizza a luxury. Could you pay for health insurance, life insurance, and a realistic retirement plan on that; and the luxuries too??

[hfojvt]

23. well, by myself - life insurance is not necessary

and no to health insurance although I could have, and probably should have, afforded the $200 a month, but now my tax records and earning records show that I made about $13,000 in 2002 and $13,891 in 2003 but most people feel they cannot live off the part-time job I had. If finances and health permit I am hoping to switch back to it within a year. Working part-time is like being semi-retired especially since I know alot of retired people who make more in retirement income than my part-time job pays and they are still working full time jobs! :crazy:
What I consider a luxury is being in Kiwanis for about $500 a year, having two dogs, internet service, and spending some $500 on family history books. Not like the expenses of a kid though, I am sure.

[sandnsea]

25. See there

$1,000 a year isn't really what most people would consider luxury living. And if you don't have the responsibility of a family, which is what the OP was referring to, then it's much easier to have a good life on very little. But that's a far cry from dumping $1300 a month on nothing.

[Yollam]

17. Thanks for that smug and ignorant load of crap.

You make 40k per year? Good for you. That is about average in the US, which means that about half of American families have to get by on less - often a lot less. And since you were able to blow $1300, I can only assume that you live in an area of the country with a very low cost of living. Or perhaps you're leaving out some of the benefits your husband gets from the military like health care and subsidized housing? I made $28K last year, no health insurance in San Francisco, and I can assure you that we didn't spend like that. We don't have cell phones, we only have basic cable because it was included in the rent, and I spent a full half of my income on rent alone.

You're only 24, so maybe you haven't been around that much, but I can assure you that "most Americans under the poverty line" do NOT live the middle class lifestyle you describe. Even if, as Rush likes to point out, 95% of welfare recipients have color TVs and microwaves, that doesn't mean they have any kind of income or food stability. Those things can be bought used, and thanks to cheap foreign labor, they both cost less than a week's rent in most cities.

I'm not complaining or blaming my financial situation on anyone else, but I think it's pretty presumptuous of a person with a good income and benefits in an inexpensive part of the country to pass judgment on EVERYONE who has a hard time getting by.


I agree with your points about budgeting and teaching young people to avoid credit card debt - not just excessive debt, but ANY credit card debt, since the cards are nothing but traps that the corporations have set to create lifetime enslavement for working people.

But no amount of budgeting can turn a minimum wage job into a living wage, especially for those of us who live in more expensive housing markets, and that's the only jobs available for millions of us. Did you not see the story about the Wal Mart that recently opened in Oakland, where 10,000 people applied for 400 of their lousy minimum wage jobs? Do you think those folks WANT to make such a paltry wage?


Ugh. I hear crap like this from white middle-class acquaintances who don't know struggle from a hole in the ground, and I'm sick of it. Shame I have to see it here, too.

:-(

[Coventina]

35. Hugs Yollam. I got yer back on this one.

The OP is very young. She had an awakening that her "poverty" was due to financial mis-management. She made the mistake of assuming that applies to *most* poor people.

Granted, just about anyone has room for improvement in their finances, but the OP made a lot of assumptions that are not fair.

Your point about housing costs are spot-on. Affordable housing is going to become one of the critical issues of the next few years in all the major cities.

[Yollam]

39. I hope I didn't overreact...

...it's just that I've heard the exact same stuff SO MANY TIMES, and always from comfortably middle class white people - like my best friend's mom (who I love dearly) - she has a huge 6 BR house, her ex has a palatial mcmansion, she owns a successful business and - well better to not put too much detail, but I never can forget the time she told me how wonderful it is that "America is so great because food is just so convenient and cheap that anyone can afford to eat like a king". The thing is, to someone with a $300K house that they paid off in only 5 years (!) - and this was in the late 80s - 2 late-model cars - bought cash outright - it may seem like food is cheap, but dammit, I've had to feed a family on $12 an hour and that is REALLY hard. I shudder to think what it must be like for people making the minimum wage. Even with food stamps and low income housing, it must be hell.

[Sammy Pepys]

41. Having been there for a brief period of time....

(I wasn't technically making minimum wage, but I was only working 25 hours a week so it was just like it in a lot of ways), you find a way to cope.

Granted it was just me at the time (I'm married now), but trying to live on $1000 a month in the D.C. area was not easy, considering I was paying for my health insurance out of pocket during that time. But I found a place out in the sticks that I worked out a deal on, figured out how to stretch my groceries, and learned to get a long without buying beer or other luxuries (no TV) for a while.

[LeftHander]

45. TV not luxury...poison.

YOu were better off without it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. And I'll throw in that NOBODY would have believed that the bottom...

...would have fallen out of the booming economy we had under our last legally elected president. We had a massive budget surplus, and crude oil was at $30 to $35 a barrel. The cost of food, gas, utilities, and all other expenses were reasonably priced and inflation was under control.

In March 2001 we went into a recession. Despite what the NeoCons would have you believe, we have not gotten out of that recession. The number of jobs has dropped dramatically since March 2001, along with salaries and hourly wages. Expenses have risen just as dramatically, especially gas, utilities, housing, and food. Savings per capita have fallen along with retirement nest-eggs. Foreclosures and bankruptcies are setting new records every month. The cost of healthcare has become so expensive that at least 40% of Americans can no longer afford to pay for it.

And I'd like to know what the OP knows about struggling to pay for the care of one or more children while dealing with all of the crap noted above.

I'd also like to tell her that if the Middle Class is suffering, the poor are really having a bad time of it, contrary to her stated opinion. I'd also like to remind her that an income of $40,000 is well above the poverty level...how would she know how the poor are living?

And what of the elderly on fixed incomes? Every time they turn around, the NeoCon Junta is trying to screw around with their Social Security and Medicare. How do they make ends meet without help from family, friends, or social programs?

So, higher expenses coupled with lower wages equals trouble all around. And NONE of that is the fault of the people that are now having to deal with it.

[Yollam]

60. Last time I checked, the poverty level for a family of four was $17K!!!!!

So yes, she is making a <<LOT>> more than the poverty level.

And wingnut scum are <<LOVING>> her post.

[Katherine Brengle]

62. We receive no special benefits, nor should we.

We pay for our health insurance and our housing. We do live in an area with fairly low housing costs (at least for what we are renting, which is a small unimpressive apartment).

My whole point was that we could NOT afford to blow that money--but we did it, and we have been doing it for a long time--and we never thought a thing about it. Not because we have loads of money, but because we never learned how to handle money.

I never said we were living below the poverty line--we absolutely have it better than a lot of people. But I see my neighbors, all of whom receive government assistance with housing and other things, and they spend money on cell phones and cable and unnecessary items and services--there's something very wrong there. (I am referring to the entire area, not just my immediate neighbors.)

I think a lot of these responses are pretty reactionary--a lot of what I said has been taken way out of context. I feel for people with legitimate grievances. I have no pity for people who have been irresponsible, as I have been.

[SammyWinstonJack]

76. !

:applause:

[question everything]

19. We are older, getting close to retirement, really

and in the past few years have been putting the maximum allowed to 401K and to IRA - that is, when we have jobs. And I think that we will be able to retire at 66 or 67.

And like you I have been thinking that I don't want to support all the other baby boomers who just like to have fun and to take trips, and get new cars every few years and who will never have enough to retire.

Get yourself the Quicken software program - about $40 I think - and if you will religiously put every expense there, yes, including cash spending - you will see where the money goes and where you can cut. You can run a "net worth" that will show you your assets and liabilities.

Most important for all is to be able to track the savings and investments. There have been too many sad stories about employers holding on to the withholding to "tie them down" instead of depositing them in the 401K and IRA accounts.

See also http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=758397

[girl gone mad]

24. It's sad to me...

and I think it's another sign of our crappy economy.

There are people who overspend, but eating out and renting movies, even having a cell phone is not likely to put someone into bankruptcy.

If people were educated into saving, the elites would simply find a new way to get their hands on our money. I'm worried that savers are about to be screwed big time by inflation/stagflation. Debters could end up better off. in addition, those sheltered IRAs may start to look good to politicians needing to find some way to boost our tax revenue and clean up Bush's mess.

Every American needs to start make sacrifices, not just those in the middle or at the bottom. Budgeting can help, but we need to avoiod making a reduction in the American quality of life our goal.

[sweetheart]

26. gambling addiction... consumption

The classes you speak of are already taught in british schools curriculum.
There are precedents.

In old times, a person could die of "consumption".
Methinks people are still dying of it.

We are not taught to be masters of our own senses.
If we are masters of our senses, then the logic of
the drugs war is a farce, that "pushers" make you
take drgus, clearly their logic is that consumers
are not masters of their senses.

So then we have a hard patriarchal state that has long
broken down the definition of "citizen" to be a consumer.

Gambling is an example of your point. Gambling is a
consuming addiction for lotsa people, and no classes are
taught in public school on how not to get addicted to
consumption...

Consumption develops the ego, develops the *me* self and
a totally self centered focus, something ideal for making
a population incredibly stupid.

[LWolf]

27. Some thoughts:

I'm right there with you on ed reform. I'm a teacher, and I live the systemic dysfunctions, as well as the top-down political manipulations that pass for "reform," on a daily basis. I can tell you that the second largest obstacle to overcome is parental; the most frequent objection we hear is "we didn't do it like that when I was in school." "I did it this way, and I turned out fine," etc.. The largest obstacle is that of political control to maintain the class status quo.

As far as the rest...

While I recognize the economically dysfunctional society we live in, I'm not as critical as you are. Those dysfunctions work from the top down. Our fearful leaders do the same thing in Congress, and TPTB have set our economy up to function that way. To change this well-entrenched system, you'll have to change the way people view excess stuff. Change the values, change the culture.

I come from working poor people, on both sides of my family. I'm one of those people who "pulled myself up" through hard work and sacrifice. I'm here to tell you that there is a reason why many don't make it. It doesn't just take hard work and commitment. It takes sacrificing whole portions of a whole life, and the whole family sacrificing for that person for many years. Hard work and commitment will get you survival, when you are the working poor. Sacrificing any notion of personal life, and willingness to spend all your waking hours either working, attending class, or studying for a decade or more, and the willingness of your family to get along without your presence while you do so is a mountain that many can't, or don't, scale.

[Jim Warren]

36. From time to time

I think it might be instructive to save your post, I mean really save it, and look at it again in say 5 or better 10 years from now.

6% of the world's population does not a worldview make.

[Sammy Pepys]

37. Great post....

This is one area (of many I'm sure) you and me are a lot alike. While I feel for the poor and do my best to help those who have hardships brought upon through circumstances out of their control, I just have little to no sympathy for people who can't control their own finances and put themselves in a hole. If you can't afford cable/a Mercedes/5 star resturants/new clothes every month/going out every weekend, then don't buy it.

I do think that America is slowly becoming more attuned to the benefits of saving and investing for the longterm, but it might be a while before it really sinks in.

I think it needs to happen in the schools, but it also REALLY needs to happen at home. I grew up in a comfortable-but-not-rich household, and my parents were very open with me about the family finances...about the kind of debt they carried, about the fact they had little to no savings for much of my childhood and teen years, that we had pretty good income all things considered but a lot of that money went right out of the bank and into paying off credit cards and other debt....they did not sugar coat it. And I took a lot away from that and look at money very differently than I did when I was young because of it. Sure, I learned about it in school, but dealing with real life really hit the message home....especially when I had my own period of financial struggle for several months in 2002.

[Katherine Brengle]

71. I agree --

I wish that my parents had taught me how to manage money. I think it should be a parenting requirement, like feeding your kids.

Of course there are things that are out of our control--medical bills that are impossible to pay are the big one, imo. But much of the debt we all incur is voluntary, and there is no excuse for that.

[radwriter0555]

38. Yes, You should be paying for those less fortunate. They're entitled to

live as decent a life as you are.

Poverty isn't about choice. Poverty is engineered by the US political and social system. The crap about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps really IS crap. In the US, people are NOT all created equal. The ability of the chronically impoverished to release themselves from the chains of poverty requires a superhuman effort. It's no simple task and isn't as simple as classes at community college or a trade school, it's about believing in yourself and understanding what you're capable of achieving. When you have generations being told over and over and over again that they're worthless, poor, useless, etc. it's next to impossible to dream of any type of achievement, whatsoever.

The kids in compton don't have the option of going to a nice, uncrowded, clean, pretty school. Their options for hope come from a teevee, not real life. Their parents can't afford to move to a what might be considered a nicer part of town; and frankly, they're not wanted there, are they? People work where they're wanted, and live where they're wanted.

The reality is that the public education system is designed to keep kids stupid and poor. The private system isn't much better actually... just slightly safer. An educated populace is a populace that rises up against the regime. A city filled with fools works so hard just to get by, they don't have TIME to worry about who the president is and what crimes he's committed lately.

The uneducated student is the worker bee. A corporation profits off the sweat of the worker bee because the worker bee is disposable and gets fired when he starts bitching. He's also paid the least. Want to know the jobs where one works the hardest and gets paid the least? Watch daytime teevee and see what the trade schools are advertising the most for.

You may not realize that the achievements that comes easily for nice white people require a superhuman effort by anyone of color. They're judged every minute of every day as they try to climb the the same ladder that you do. They take two steps forward and one step back.

Here's another thing. Sometimes, people are content with that which they are the most familiar. If they grew up in a small apartment, scraping by, barely managing, it may be all they know, all they're familiar with and all they may want to achieve.

Sometimes people really are happy with the way their lives are, even if their standards aren't the same as yours. For some people, to have a combined income of 40K really IS a LOT of money. For a lot of people even. For MOST people in the US, even. And imagine this, they even manage to buy homes, not have debt and live decent, ordinary lives. Without a massive education or knowing how to repair computers. Sometimes the xray technician at the hospital really is doing the best he can... and doing well at it!

So, I'm not sure what you're unhappy about. Poverty isn't caused by debt. Poverty is caused by multi-generational racism, lack of education, lack of treatment for addiction, lack of basic health care and lack of compassion.

When the USA ceases its racism and its hate of the poor, things can change.

You want solutions to the poverty problem? Try increasing welfare payments, enabling women to stay at home -- in a NICE home -- with her children, without living in squalor. Provide nutrition programs, food programs; provide education incentives for the parents AND the kids! Free day care! Free school lunches, free worker lunches! Socialised, affordable health care, cheap mass transportation! Increase unemployment benefits. Expand them, socialise them, EDUCATE AND TRAIN THEM! More holidays, less working hours, less demand on productivity! Let people spend time with their families! Make more parks for families to enjoy together! More kids arts and sports programs in the parks! More city events and town events, more parades, more festivals, more farmer's markets! Bring the family back together! LIVE life, enjoy life! Longer lunch hours!

The point to life is to enjoy it. It's not about jet-skis and shopping. It's about sitting on a blanket in park on sunday, enjoying the sunshine while the baby toddles in the grass, your mom is unpacking the egg salad sandwiches while hubby tries to light the grill. You're reading a book and your sister is chasing the baby. That IS what life is all about.

Make that happen, put all those things together and you will have a happy, healthy and prosperous society.

Oh right, you want to pay for those things? Easy. Use the money bush just blew in iraq. You could pay for ALL that and more for 100 years.

bush could manage to scrounge up the money to pay for his lies and war, but you all can't make someone like him make life nicer for all Americans?

What went wrong?

[Mr.Green93]

40. Good Luck

Your maturity and insight is refreshing. Thank you to your husband for his service to our country with two hard jobs.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finder]

49. This is unfair to the OP...

and your post is a good example of the classism I commented on in another thread.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftHander]

44. Great post thanks...my thoughts...long

You make some really excellent points. And no many of they are not right wing...but the right wing wants to try and take credit for them. But we also need to stop allowing our consumer based economy to prey upon people. We can't condemn and turn our backs on people because they are trapped by our consumer society. We also can't continue to allow people to be taken advantage of as the GOP has done.

Your family is a prime example of exactly that. YOu are carrying debt and overspending thanks to a system encouraged by corporate intrests and GOP pandering to those interests. You are the cash cow for the wealthy and one paycheck and two months or so from the profoundly poor you talk about.

The idea of educating people on personal financies is really very liberal. GOP backers do not want this. They spend millions on lobbying to loosen federal lending requirements to trap people in an endless cycle of debt.

They WANT predetory lending practices to be legal and in the last 6 years they have got everything they wanted. The right has rolled back decades of protections from "loan sharking". Which is essentially being done. Hidden charges, outrageous penalties and interest rates.

Our consumer based culture is selfish. You are so right on this and the solutions come from turning our backs on the consumer based advertising culture we live in.

I suggest to you to start turning off the TV and keep it off. Do so for 4 weeks. Then watch. You will be amazed at how awful it really is and how the constant barrage of commercials and adverstising slowly warps the mind. Even if you watch only a few hours a day it is enough to twist perception and warp the sense of purpose in ones life. Eliminating TV frees hours of time to do something else. Something productive for yourself, family and community.

A lot of what you desire is progressive and not at all conservative. Conservatives pander to big money and profit. They do not really care all about people. You care. Because you are living everyday with issues we all face. What seperates you from so many is that you question and are looking for solutions outside of what is found coming out of Washington. YOu know something is horribly wrong and want to fix it. That makes you progressive. Balancing helping people finaincially and setting the stage for the next generation to not make the same mistakes is progress. The conservative do not want to change this. They want to make it easy to allow our consumer corporate environment to profit from people's ignorance. That is why and GOP education reform is hollow and empty when they continue to cut budgets and hand over largess to huge corporations to enable numerous substandard jobs for people to to just "eek" by buying the trinkets they sell.

We need more posts like yours. People sharing their real true life experiences and providing ideas for solutions. That is how real progress is made.

As for a solution ...the problem is best to deep to the core. And that is our Television based consumer culture. That is the driver and there is only one way to break the cycle of consumer spending.

My gosh I can't say enough how important it is to turn the TV off. I have done so and now I can't stomach 30 minutes. The TV is really destroy America's capacity to succeed by constantly distracting and diverting precious brain power from talking, thinking and interacting with each other. Most people don't recognize how poinsonous the television is until they go cold turkey for 4 weeks.

We all need to live with less stimulation from the "idiot box". And more stimulation form each other. Converstaion, love, community and service to one another.

You my young friend are on the right path and your family is young enough to really make a great life for yourselves. Discard the trappings of the TV and our consumer society, cut those credit cards and you are on your way to a new life that will be rich and full of promise.

The simple life is what matter most. Not the trappings and "things" of consumer culture. Family, friends, a simple home, a garden, a community to support and serve. That is what is most important.

Trust me. Eliminate the TV for 4 weeks solid and it will change your life forever in ways you will only discover by turning it off.

There are no easy answers and none are quick either. But first eliminating the source of confusion and distraction will make for clearer thinking. I REALLY can't begin to describe in full what eliminating television from my daily life has done. You simply have to experience it for yourself.

[Katherine Brengle]

75. Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts --

I agree about television--we cut the cable out over a year ago--it was such a waste of time, money, and brain power. We have a few local channels by antennae, but most days I try to avoid it. Advertising is beyond disgusting these days--just an hour or so ago I had the tube on and there was a commercial, "Are you sick of being surprised by unexpected bills?"

All I could think was, "How can you have unexpected bills???"

And that was just one random ad...

We are hoping for the best--we are very young, and we do have a decent income, so if we start being careful now and saving and planning, we should be able to live a very nice life.

Everyone should, at the very least, have the knowledge to do the same. The system is rigged, but it can be fought against.

[Gormy Cuss]

46. Good for you on recognizing how to get your own financial house in order.

If you and your husband start now with a good disciplined budget you'll be amazed how quickly you can get ahead. Once you get ahead, you'll have the flexibility to weather little financial setbacks. It's a great feeling.

Having said that, you have no understanding of what it's like to be poor in America. I hope that you never have the experience.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. "should we be paying for the mistakes and bad choices of others"

But what if they're not "bad choices"? What if they are the life and death choices that have hit so many who can't get insurance? What if it's the 75 year old woman who can't afford to pay cash and has to charge her prescriptions? That's my grandma by the way...How do you suggest we "teach" her to make the correct decision and just die already...so we don't have to care for her?

[Dora]

48. We've done the same thing in our house.

We've eliminated ALL optional spending. We make decisions based on need, not want. When I think of the amounts of cash we've shamelessly frittered away on restaurants, gasoline, clothing, impulse and frippery, I hang my head in shame.

Due to my husband taking part-time employment due to a layoff, and our mortgage increasing annually because of property taxes, we've had some crazy financial juggling to do. But we do it, and we're surviving, and we're proud of ourselves and the choices we make. And every penny we save, every item of choice that we forgo in order to pay another bill, it all feels good.

We have food on our table and love in our hearts. It really is true for us: "Waste not, want not."

[Finder]

50. I get what you are trying to say...

and do not interpret your post to be condemning the actual poor. That said, I think the fact you pulled out those bank statements to identify the problem is a good step. Some people do not do this until they are so deep in debt that there is no crawling out.

Good Luck to you.

[AllieB]

51. Bread and Circuses

As long as working-class and middle-class Americans are fed a steady diet of reality TV, the Horatio Alger myth, and rampant materialism, they'll always be more interested in buying that plasma TV on credit than paying off their bills. Hell, even the new evangelicalism says materialism and consumerism are A-OK. I agree that financial planning and courses in basic economics are good ideas, but they're up against the barrage of advertising that subliminally or not-so-subliminally suggests that you're incomplete without that new car/iPod/computer.

[noonwitch]

52. I do get what you are saying, and I personally think welfare is a trap

I've been working in child welfare in an extremely poor urban area (Detroit) for 19 years. Most of the families I worked with in the late 80s were on ADC. The mothers (as a whole, not as individuals) had no husbands/partners to help raise their kids, there was no expectation of anything better than that monthly check, medicaid and food stamps. Staying on welfare meant a steady check that would keep a roof over the kids heads, put dinner on the table and that was about it. Most sneaked around and had boyfriends living off of that check that they didn't report to the Department. The conservatives are not wrong when they claim that ADC encouraged single parent households and sexual irresponsibility, even if it's intention was to try to help those situations. If the government is going to pay increases for each kid you have, why bother to be responsible for your sexual behavior? A lot of them ended up trapped-welfare gave them something to get by on, but they lost their incentive to improve their lives.

There's also no pride in receiving a check from the government that allows you to survive and not much else. Even working at McDonald's 40 hours a week will encourage pride in the hard work one is doing.

What welfare reform has done is it has required people to get jobs while the state still provides assistance with day care, food stamps and medicaid. My main criticism of welfare reform is that it doesn't usually allow time for a parent to train for better than minimum wage jobs. Nor does it allow for attending college. There needs to be a time allowence from the required work hours for the parents to attend job skills' programs, yet still have time to spend with their families.

This doesn't mean that I don't recognize that there are plenty of other issues that affect poverty-race, education (Detroit's schools are horrendous and have been for since the 70s), local economies, etc., that could also be addressed, but welfare is not good for people in the long run.

[Midlodemocrat]

54. This is wrong on so many levels.

My nuclear family consists of my husband, me and our three children. We had to take in my FIL because my husband's sister was abusing him. He gets a grand total of $1000 a month from SS. We also just took in a friend of my eldest because of problems at home.

1. Her mom is bipolar and unable to work.
2. Her brother is in a gang because there is no one to stop him. Dad left a long time ago.
3. Her mom gets SSDI. Everything they own, EVERYTHING, is from the Rent A Center people. The furniture, computer for the kid for school. EVERYTHING.

My husband and I are doing pretty well. Currently. Who knows what the future will bring? But we took this child in because she had no where else to go.

Should I be paying for the mistakes of her mom? Should I be paying for the mistakes of my FIL and MIL who set up their family finances to solely benefit their daughter?

Damn fucking right. Because that is what makes me a compassionate, caring human being.

I have the ability to help. I can't look away.

We. All of us. All of us need to help those less fortunate. There but for the Grace of God goes me.

[noonwitch]

55. You are a good person to take in someone else's kid

Th bipolar mom may be eligible for some kind of vocational assistance through the SSI program or through the Goodwill or a similar agency. She needs to get away from the Rent-a-Center. They take advantage of people with their fees. They'd be better off putting the stuff on layaway at Target and going without TV for a few weeks.

You could look into getting licensed as a foster parent, so you can get fc payments for the kid you took in, not to mention getting foster kids placed with you. At the very least, you should get guardianship of the child, or you will be in a bind if there a legal consent issue comes up when the mom is incapable of dealing with it. Not only that, you could be accused of kidnapping under some circumstances. If you're going to keep the kid for more than a few weeks, you need some legal status.

Talk to the mom and call the Probate court in your area to find out how your state handles guardianship. Usually, it's a simple process where the parent signs consent to allow you to care for the child. It's done all the time in mental health cases like this.

If not, make sure the mom has medicaid coverage for the kid, so that she can get medical treatment and immunizations without you having to pay for it. If the mom doesn't, then you really do need to apply for guardianship so that you can also apply for medicaid for the child. Taxpayers don't usually object to medicaid coverage for kids in those kind of situations, especially when you are paying for the child's food, clothes, and daily life.

My brother did the same thing for a kid in his church. He went and got guardianship just to make sure he had legal protection. My family also took in neighborhood kids when we were teens-one of our friends spent a few weeks living in our basement when his parents were treating him badly, one of my sister's friends spent a couple of months in our house, we had an exchange student once, and several times we had adult guests of my dad's Rotary Club stay at our house. It's what you do when you are in a position to share.

[Midlodemocrat]

56. Fortunately, guardianship isn't going to be an issue`

because she is 18. One of those 'super kids' we hear about occasionally. Goes to the Math and Science magnet high school, works approximately 40 hours a week and pays for everything herself.

Terrific kid. Lots of potential. Her younger brother in a gang was taking all of her things, iPod, camera, stuff like that and selling or giving them to his girlfriends. And, he was threatening her life. We told her the only caveat to coming here was not to let brother know where we lived.

At another point, I will help him, but I am kinda full up at the moment.

Thank you for your kind words.

[SpecialK]

57. The opposite problem in Europe....

Interesting post. I'm 28 and no economist, but it's my understanding that it is exactly the kind of frivolous spending you describe (aka living beyond one's means) that DRIVES the American (and global) economy.

My husband in German and I lived in Germany for several years, so I can tell you that they are having the exact OPPOSITE problem in Europe (and in Germany in particular) - that is, no one wants to spend anything. People there are much more likely to put every last penny in a savings account or under their mattresses than invest it in monthly installments on a plasma TV. None of our friends there that are my age have any credit card debt, and my husband's parents (in their 50s) don't even own a credit card. This, of course, to me seems extremely responsible and sounds all well and good. However, the government is on a serious mission trying to get its people to spend MORE...implying that this will help their position in the global economy, as well as the status of things at home (unemployment is high, etc.)

Again, I don't pretend to completely understand all of this and for that very reason I absolutely agree with you that there needs to be more of an effort to educate young people on financial planning and fiscal responsibility. Or, rather, as someone upthread wrote:

The education system needs to be revamped, certainly, but the focus needs to be on teaching critical thinking skills and polite skepticism. If that happened, fewer young people would fall into the traps you mention.

...ahh critical thinking...that which is TOTALLY lost on High School students and many college students...but I digress...

Until then, I think the way we handle our finances ends up being the way we do a lot of things - how our parents do it. Luckily, I had good role models and the only debt my husband and I have is the 'good' kind - a house payment and student loans. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for most people I know...which raises for me, the non-economist, a plethora of questions about middle class poverty and how it will affect future generations.

[Nikki Stone1]

58. You're 24 so I'll be kind. Please don't overgeneralize

Just because a thing is true for you doesn't mean it's true for everyone else. Your income is actually above poverty level. Real poverty level means it's not a matter of getting rid of extra, unnecessary expenses. It means choosing between medicine and groceries. I've seen people struggle with just these kinds of decisions.

I'll cut you a break because of your lack of experience, but at some point, you really need to see what is really going on out there.

[earth mom]

61. I'd say that you need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Recently on Oprah, a couple not much older than you did just that-lived as the working poor for a month. It was such a rude awakening for them to work minimum wage jobs. Neither of them could believe the extremes they had to go to just pay for the bare necessities like rent, food, bus fare, etc.

I get it because I've been there myself. Initially, my husband and I were doing fine-2 new cars (with car payments), nice new clothes, beauty salon trips for me, etc. That was until my husband could NOT get a decent paying job once he left the military. Yes, the military. He ended up making half his old salary and we ended up living as the working poor for 8 years before he landed the good paying job he has now. It was hell and it changed me, actually it changed both my husband and I in more ways than one. We now pinch pennies as much as possible, and among other things, I cut everyone in the families hair and shop thrift stores for most of our clothes and household stuff. These days, I am totally reluctant to borrow money even though our house really needs a new roof and a new heater.

Sorry, and maybe you don't realize it, but your cavalier assumption that people who are poor or working poor are "living it up" on their credit cards while being totally irresponsible about important things like a roof over their heads or food on the table is something I would expect to read over at freeperville, not on DU.

Anyone who is down and out-AKA poor or working poor-is constantly and I mean constantly scrambling to keep it all together. You don't have time for much of anything else because otherwise you will find yourself living on the street in a cardboard box.

Living poor or as the working poor ain't living at all.

It's existing. Simple as that.

[Katherine Brengle]

63. I think you don't know me, or what shoes I have walked in --

I grew up with uneducated parents who made very little money. I grew up with subsidized housing and food stamps and free lunch at school.

I haven't had anything handed to me in life. I worked my ass off to get into college (with no assistance from anyone) and to pay my way through. I have worked minimum wage jobs, and now I don't have to, because I've done everything I can to better myself.

I have made bad choices in my young life, financially, that have put me behind in the game. I still owe money to the college I attended, and we've faced eviction and received constant calls from collection agencies--but we OWN that. Even when we weren't bringing in much money (as opposed to now), we still owned our situation.

I am not saying ALL poor people are at fault--but many are, and as long as we choose to invite EVERYONE to the pity party, we aren't going to help anyone.

[earth mom]

65. Sorry, but I really don't think you know enough about the subject.

Because, frankly, you sound a bit like Reagan when he started talking about "Welfare Queens" back in the 1980s. :shrug:

It's one thing to have money and blow it like you are saying you have done. And quite another thing to never have enough to pay for the bare necessities of life like housing, food and transportation.

Have you read the book "Nickeled and Dimed"? It's a good insight into what I'm talking about.

[conflictgirl]

70. I completely and totally agree with you!

There is an absolutely HUGE difference between someone having enough money that they can waste $1300 in a month, and a poor person having to decide whether to pay the electricity bill or fix the car that is the sole transportation for work. When you're poor, people scrutinize everything you do. I've had people assume that I wasn't married simply because I was using food stamps - and I wear a diamond wedding ring! They looked at the food stamps and made a snap judgment. I have to be careful what I wear because if I wear nice clothes purchased years ago when things were better, people might think I'm a welfare cheat. I'm always nervous in the grocery checkout because I'm afraid of what people will think of what I have in my cart.

I've even had people tell me that because my husband has been laid off from 3 different jobs in the past 12 years, it must be something HE is doing wrong. Maybe we're all supposed to have psychic powers now to know in advance which companies are going to start outsourcing?

I thought liberals weren't supposed to tell other people how to live their lives. The original post sounded just like things my extremely conservative mother-in-law has said to me. Everyone needs to have better financial management skills, but why did the judgments of the poor have to be thrown in there too?

[Balbus]

64. Very mature insight for one so young.

I wish I had such insight and rationality when I was 24. Alas, it was about 5 years after that, so just that much longer before righting the ship and getting on course. Good luck to you - you're on your way. :thumbsup:

[upi402]

66. agree

we need to live simply and bushco is going to see to it

[conflictgirl]

67. If you think it's respectable to be poor in this country

Maybe you should actually experience it.

Having a household income higher than the median and spending an unnecessary amount does not mean that this society has any respect for the poor.

There should NOT BE shame in poverty. We are in poverty right now because my husband lost his job through no fault of his own. Why should we feel ashamed? The companies laying people off are the ones who should feel ashamed - not us for being on the losing end.

Yes, we absolutely should be teaching better money-management skills to young people. I think it should be a required class in high school, where you learn about budgeting, how to balance a checkbook, how to understand credit card terms and interest, etc. But that has nothing to do with poverty being accepted.

Since my husband lost his job, we've had to go on food stamps for the first time in our 12 years of marriage. If it was just us, we wouldn't have, but we have three kids. Trust me when I say that I DO feel ashamed of it - precisely because of words like the ones you just posted. I hate every time I have to pay for my groceries with food stamps because it's humiliating. I have to pray that the cashier will be kind enough to NOT loudly announce that I've paid with food stamps (it's on a debit card in my state). I have had total strangers tell me that I need to "close my legs" and "stop wasting their tax dollars". CLOSE MY LEGS!! I've been married for twelve years, have three kids and definitely won't have more - and because we need help paying for groceries until my husband finds a job, they dare imply that I'm promiscuous?

Seriously, if there is anyone out there who is proud to be poor and using government resources, I've never met them. Being poor is a struggle to maintain one's dignity every day when others are trying to take it away from you. If you are making more than the median income, you are NOT fairly poor. Try supporting a family of five on $29K a year and then losing that $29K a year, and then get back to me with an informed opinion about what poor people are really like. You are not one of them if you even *have* more than $1300 to waste in a month.

[taught_me_patience]

68. glad to see you've come to this financial awareness at

such a young age. When I was 24, I was working 60-80 hours a week for 26k/year. But life generally rewards people who work hard and are prudent. Now, I'm 27, and make 70k/year and my gf (29) makes 100k/year. Guess what, the lessons that are learned while young, continue through. We still save money by not going out needlessly or spending money on useless gadgets that become obsolete (like a fancy car). Where I differ from you, and most on this message board, is that i readily acknowledge that I profit from the existence of dumb consumers. The business I work for sells crap to consumers and I'm in one of those "service" jobs you speak lowly of. Ironically, service jobs generally pay better and are healthier than "blue collar" or "manufacturing jobs".

I guess my point is that you simply have to look after yourself, and know that you probably benefit in some way from the average paycheck to paycheck consumer. Our economy would survive without them.

taught.

[Inland]

74. Budgeting and dieting are the same.

When you record everything, you find that you aren't nearly as good as you thought about things. You spend a lot more and eat a lot more and differently than you assume.

[SmokingJacket]

77. What are you talking about?

In what way are you, personally, paying for the "mistakes and bad choices" of others? Do you mean food stamps and welfare?

Or are you just venting because you don't feel like empathizing with poor people?

The world is complex -- people are poor and suffer for myriad different reasons, some their fault, and some not. Who am I to judge???

When I was twenty four, I lived in a house with my boyfriend and another couple to save on rent. We all shared a phone, had no TV or stereo, I think maybe I had a credit card at the time but I don't remember using it.

Now I have a family of four, and still have no cell phone, dishwasher, or microwave; we own a single used car, don't take "vacations" or eat junk food and rarely buy new clothes. Most of our furniture is second hand. We heat with wood. This is all by choice -- we earn a decent income. We have no debt except for the mortgage on our $65K house.

Yet somehow I still feel that the problems of poverty and of unnecessary spending are NOT the same -- at all. Do you know any truly, truly poor people? There are many in this country, but they're invisible unless you know where to look.