So How Do I Answer a Man From Qatar? I am so embarrassed.

[leftyladyfrommo]

I know a man from Quatar (very young man, I think) who posts almost daily about the awfulness of the Bush administration.

He now is saying that 9/11 was a plot by the Pentagon. No middle easterners were really involved.

It is part of the Pentagon's plan for "endless war."

I am not a person who believes the Pentagon planned and carried out 9/11. I do not believe the Pentagon wants "endless war."

I think that people are just unbelievably incompetent at just about everything. And I do think they were looking for an excuse to start a war in Iraq for whatever stupid reasons they had.

But I was trying to tell this guy that we don't laugh when there are terrorist attacks. That we are very concerned about the innocent civilians.

But then I realized what a dumb argument that is. We caused the terrorist attacks. And we have caused way more horribl deaths than the terrorists.

I had absolutely no argument.

[slackmaster]

1. IMO that's the moral equivalent of blaming a rape victim

For walking out alone at night, drunk, provocatively dressed, in a bad neighborhood.

Everyone would agree she didn't deserve to be raped, but she did play a role in her fate by making bad choices.

(Bracing for the barrage of "But that's different" posts with no logical argument explaining why.)

[leftyladyfrommo]

5. I am not following. Kind of dense this morning.

[slackmaster]

8. The individual Americans who were killed on 9/11 were INNOCENT

The radical Islamists have a legitimate beef with the Western world and the US in particular for economic hegemony. We've been stealing their oil for decades, and monkeying with their political and social systems in order to perpetuate our claim to their mineral rights.

They have a right to be angry. They have a right to want to fight us. But they had no right to kill any of those people.

[leftyladyfrommo]

17. OK - makes sense to me.

But I think those kids over there really just believe that the Middle east had nothing to do with 9/11. That the Pentagon did it to manipulate the American people into going to war.

I don't believe this but I have to say that I have wondered. That is how much I really distrust the people running this adm. Sad.

[slackmaster]

24. I distrust our admin too, but your friend has been fed propaganda

The fact that we've been fed propaganda doesn't negate the evil of the anti-Western propaganda being fed to people wholesale in some parts of the Muslim world.

[leftyladyfrommo]

28. Doesn't help that I don't feel like I can support my own govt.

But I feel like I can support my own people.

[novalib]

33. Including Those at the Pentagon??

The people who were killed in their offices -- at the Pentagon -- were innocent?

[slackmaster]

35. Watch it, my brother is a Naval officer

Rank and file people in the military, and even top admirals and generals, are not the authors of US foreign policy.

[novalib]

38. But The Top Admirals and Generals

as well as other "rank and file" in the military DO author and carry out military policy.

Would you suggest that the "rank and file" -- including the top generals and admirals -- who served in the German military during the 1930's and 1940's were "innocent" because they did not author German foreign policy?

[slackmaster]

39. What military policy do you believe 9/11 was a response to?

I thought the Muslim world's issues with us were economic and cultural.

[DireStrike]

40. "And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon"

OBL:

"And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.

And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children."

[slackmaster]

41. OBL is a crackpot megalomaniac

Those soldiers in Lebanon weren't killing women or children.

OBL and everyone of that mind-set need to be exterminated.

[novalib]

43. Are you including Bush?

"OBL and everyone of that mind-set need to be exterminated."

It is my view that Bush far -- FAR -- exceeds OBL when it comes to being a crackpot megalomaniac.

On Edit -- PLEASE NOTE -- I do NOT advocate the extermination of the President of the United States. I do NOT think being a "crackpot megalomaniac" auotmatically means that someone ought to be exterminated.

[slackmaster]

44. That would be illegal

And a violation of the posting rules.

[novalib]

42. Cruise Missiles, For One Thing

The United States developed and used cruise missiles.

[slackmaster]

45. Yes, in Gulf War I

What does that have to do with the radical islamists' rationalizations for 9/11?

[novalib]

46. You Asked About Military Policies of the US

We used cruise missiles in Gulf War I.

Against Muslim people. In the Middle East.

We use cruise missiles against a people that have no cruise missiles.

Those people want to take the war to the people (in the Pentagon) that formulated that military policy.

[slackmaster]

48. Lets get a little more specific against whom those missiles were used

Do you recall what country they were fired at, and why?

Are you SURE you want to go this route for justifying the 9/11 attacks?

Is there a justification in your mind for the current Iraq situation, or not?

[novalib]

54. Justification for the Current Iraq Situation?

If you are asking me whether I think there is any justification for the US occupying Iraq, my answer would be "Hell, NO!".

You seem intent on saying that the people that were killed in the Pentagon on 9/11 were somehow just "innocent" people.

I disagree. They were people engaged in either formulating or carrying out the corrupt, fascistic military policy of the United States.

And, unless someone was standing at their headswith a gun, they did os quite voluntarily.

That's not "innocent" in my book.

[slackmaster]

57. Not everyone killed in the Pentagon was a policy architect or tactician

They were people engaged in either formulating or carrying out the corrupt, fascistic military policy of the United States.

Not by a long shot. My brother lost a friend who was a junior officer, a Lieutenant in the Navy. I don't know the details of that man's assignment at the time, but there is zero chance he had anything to do with national policy decisions.

And, unless someone was standing at their headswith a gun, they did os quite voluntarily.

That's not "innocent" in my book.

I think you have a poor understanding of the role of most people in the military. Our bad middle east policies are not the only thing the US military does for this country.

[treestar]

50. We are all innocent as individuals, but not as Americans, and it

is the Administration trying to make out that it was an attack on America, not just on those individuals.

They argue there are no rights of justice to people for being Islamic, because the criminal law does not apply, it was not a mere crime, but an attack, like a military attack.

So when it comes to that, we are all soldiers (modern warfare doesn't allow for a war fought off on the battlefied and the women and children safe and protected back off the battlefield.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. Your analogy is way off, and here's the logical argument why.

A rape victim is not guilty of anything more than PERHAPS poor judgement.

The United States, on the other hand, has, through our policies and direct actions, been guilty of killing hundreds of thousands of people and impoverishing millions more.

The rape victim did not end someone's life or make someone's life miserable, the United States did.

The proper analogy would be to a bully that gets its comeuppance.

On edit: I see where you make the case for individual Americans, however, this attack was not one committed against individual citizens - it was against the United States. It was not personal.

[slackmaster]

36. Yeah, but the attack against the United States killed a lot of individuals

It was not personal.

Try telling that to people who lost family members who were simply doing their office jobs in the private sector. My brother lost a few fellow Navy people who were in the Pentagon at the time of the attack. To him, it's very personal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

37. It's still worlds different from your analogy. (nt)

I'm absolutely not even coming remotely close to absolving responsibility, just pointing out that your argument doesn't really work. There's a world of difference involved.

[treestar]

49. No flaming, the people who died did not do anything to deserve

it, though their country did, and you could say it was the same, but the equivalent might be that the rape victim was very wealthy, and had the perpetrators killed, and killed some of their family members, too (family members who had nothing to do with the rape.) And that she decided who the perpetrator was, and did not care if she might be wrong.

[Atman]

2. I once knew a man from Qatar

Whe sent me e-mails from afar
He said the mid-east was blameless
And that BushCo was shameless
Now the world bears a permanent scar

[slackmaster]

3. I was trying to come up with "Who played an electric guitar" as line 2

Thanks.

[lonestarnot]

16. and who didn't exchange vows with the tzar.

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Do you think I should just e-mail him that little ditty?

I never have any idea what will offend this guy. It seems to be OK for him to say any Godawful thing he wants but not OK for me to fire back.

Course, he is a "guy" and I'm not so that may be part of the problem.

[novalib]

6. Why Not Simply Do This?

Tell him what you know -- and/or what you believe.

Apparently, the guy in Qatar is sharing with you some of the things he "believes".

And you "believe" that his beliefs are not correct.

Well, why not just respond with some of your own beliefs?

Why should he get to share his beliefs with you, without you sharing your beliefs with him????

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. That is kind of what I did.

But when I got to the part about terrorist's killing innocent people I found myself in real trouble. We have killed thousands of innocent people, too.

[novalib]

32. Then Share That Fact With Him.....

Let him him know that you agree with him on that point.

Be willing, too, to change your beliefs based on what he shares with you.

[Javaman]

7. Moro* lies about everything, why do you think he told the truth about 9/11

????

[bluerum]

9. You are each taking an extreme end of the argument. The truth is

somewhere in between.

In a very real sense the US government as a whole was responsible for 9/11. But - to the best of our knowledge it was foreign nationals from middle eastern countries that hijacked and flew the aircraft.

Does the government want endless war? Well - consider the co-dependent couple unwilling to confront difficult personal issues. A couple who fight with each other day in and day. They are doing a dance to keep themselves from intimacy and confronting different aspects about themselves.

Fighting and external behaviors are just straw men for more fundamental problems - they keep individuals safe from confronting themselves and making uncomfortable realizations. Countries and whole peoples often engage in this type of behavior by hiding behind government policies and religious beliefs.

[noamnety]

10. maybe you could explain to him

why you think the Pentagon wouldn't want an endless war. Try explaining the advantages and disadvantages of being in a perpetual state of war, from the pentagon/corporate point of view. Ask him to do the same.

and tell him you think that we've caused more horrible deaths than the terrorists, if that's what you believe, and let him know you're trying to come to terms with that in a meaningful way.

A discussion doesn't have to be an argument.

[leftyladyfrommo]

19. OK That sounds good.

[Warpy]

11. Well, I'd tell him I didn't think the Pentagon was that smart

and that their style was more along the lines of lying this country into unwinnable wars and killing as many people as possible with explosives dropped from planes.

I would also admit the truth, that we don't know who some of those hijackers were because they used faked or stolen passports.

I would also admit the truth of why they did this to us, of our decades of meddling where we don't belong, supporting corrupt governments that should have been toppled decades ago.

However, I would state that no people deserved this, being butchered for the crime of going to work on an ordinary day, that the hijackers were cowards who attacked defenseless people instead of going after the real villains in our government.

They didn't deserve it here, they don't deserve it in Iraq, and they don't deserve it in Israel or the West Bank. War against civilians is evil.

[dysfunctional press]

12. first of all- drop the u in Qatar when corresponding with him.

it's Qatar.

[leftyladyfrommo]

23. My spelling is getting way worse as I get older. Sorry.

I don't use the word anyway. We both know where he is.

[endarkenment]

13. Plenty here subscribe to *IHOP

and I ain't talking pancakes. However all such discussions will be banished to the *IHOP ghetto. So, I won't comment any further on that other than to say that *IHOP does not require that the perps be other than middle eastern.

Now as to your other point, 'the pentagon' is not in charge of policy. The pentagon is in charge of executing military policy determined by 'the white house'. The white house is currently occupied by a bunch of nutcases who have published their core ideological mission statement in what is known as The Project For A New American Century, or PNAC for short. You should feel free to google for their website and read their mission statements.

The PNAC people very much want a 'long war'. In fact that is the very phrase they have started using to market their global mission, to replace the War On Terror. They want this 'long war' for many reasons, some corrupt, some misplaced idealism, and the usual dreary sociopathic dream of world conquest and domination.

You may continue to believe that what has happened since 9-11 is mostly incompetence, I, and many others here have looked at what they said they would do if they were in power and had the opportunity, and what they have done since they got into power and (through a remarkable coincidence) had the opportunity, and see a 1-1 mapping. They are simply executing the plan set out in broad details in the PNAC documents.

[novalib]

14. You Realize, Of Course That We Have Had Endless War.

Except for the 8 years when Bill Clinton was President, we have had virtually endless war since 1941.

WWII lasted until 1945.

The "Cold War" lasted until 1990.

Battles of the Cold War included Korea, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs (Cuba), Granada, Dominican Republic.

1990 saw the first invasion of Iraq.

2003 saw the second invasion (and subsequent occupation) of Iraq.

Endless War.

[peacetalksforall]

15. lefty lady - you have to decide whether you want a debate or not.

If he 'feels' and you 'feel' and it's all about hunches=feelings and if neither have studied it (to the extent possible) or have some new proof = you'll just go in circles. If yes to these parameters, just tell him that the both of you will have to wait to see how it turns out.

We (the people) didn't deserve Rumsfeld and PNAC and its obvious that they had big plans (for themselves and their pockets and the pockets of their corporate friends and their stckholders).
They wanted a Pearl Harbor and we got one.
It is easy to see how people believe the way your friend does.

If you have the time to debate, you might learn plenty that will help you with your belief.

[leftyladyfrommo]

26. I'm not a good debater. I just try to say what I think and

try to let him know that most Americans are not happy with this adm. and with the Iraqi War. And that we do not cheer and laugh when innocents are killed. I think he is surrounded by young people from the Arab world and he hears a lot of stuff about conspiracy and so forth which would not be believable here. Like the rumor that the Jews caused 9/11. I would blow something like that off immediately, but he wouldn't.

[JCMach1]

20. Does you disagreement matter, 'cause endless war is what we got

the cause is almost like saying what was the cause of the Hundred Years War...

:shrug:

[Radio_Guy]

21. You don't argue with him

He is absolutely correct. There is more evidence corroborating his statements than the official government statements. If you don't agree with him, that is your opinion. But arguing with him about it will not do him or you any good.

[aikoaiko]

22. Ask him which model he would like. ...

[slackmaster]

25. I'll take one of each, shiny side out

Hey aikoaiko, you are THREE POSTS shy of 1,000!

[aikoaiko]

31. yep, I'm celebrating by getting a membership.

gold star, here I come.

2 to go.

[formerrepuke]

27. He may also believe that there were no Jews in the Twin towers on

9/11. I wouldn't mention that (a common belief among some in the M.E.) ..But he shouldn't be permitted to express to you that the 9/11 attack weren't of Middle Eastern origin.. it just happens that, unfortunately, our administration has capitalized on it to justify just about anything- particularly if it involves the Middle East.. even those countries which weren't remotely involved.

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. I think Qatar is trying really hard to modernize - I think that

women can even vote there. Yahoo! I saw a show on 60 Minutes about that country once and their ruler and his wife are pretty modern in their ideas.

[MadHound]

34. Really can't help you on this one

I'm firmly in the LIHOP/MIHOP camp, there are too many unanswered questions,strange coincendences, and loose thread floating around for me to be otherwise. And the Pentagon may very well be involved, lord knows it would take somebody high up in the military or civilian administration to countermand the standing order for fighter jets to intercept hijacked planes.

And frankly I think that the Pentagon and its civilian enablers have been trying to achieve perpetual war for over fifty years now. Remember Ike's warning about the military-industrial complex? Well it wasn't heeded and look where we're at now. Also, if you go read your PNAC you'll find that endless war is indeed one of their goals.

Sorry, but I have to fall on the side of your friend from Qatar. I don't know that 911 was solely a Pentagon job, I have my doubts about that. But I am certain that it wasn't solely the work of nineteen men armed with boxcutters who were running an operation planned by a man living in a cave in Afghanistan(who interestingly enough was/is a CIA operative).

[leftyladyfrommo]

51. Interesting thoughts. I think I'm afraid to really ask too many

questions about this. I'm afraid of what I may start to think. Would cause way too many nightmares.

[Kailassa]

52. Tell him you will put away your preconceived ideas

if he will do the same, and if he will explore the facts and theories on the internet with you.

Don't be afraid, you're a woman, and women are a hell of a lot stronger than they realize.

We will probably never know the truth, but exploring the issue will be an interesting exercise to work on together.

By approaching this with a humble heart and open mind, you will at least show him that not all Americans care more about clinging to their national chauvanism than about learning the truth.

[rman]

47. You can tell him you are an Incompetence Theorist

To say that 9-11 was done by the Pentagon and that no middle easterners were involved is an oversimplyfication. More institutions besides the Pentagoin were involved and middle easterners were involved in the financing and as patsies.

[TexasLawyer]

53. The PNAC crowd DOES want endless "total war"

They have said so themselves.

One of George W Bush’s “thinkers” is Richard Perle. I interviewed Perle when he was advising Reagan; and when he spoke about “total war”, I mistakenly dismissed him as mad. He recently used the term again in describing America’s “war on terror”.

“No stages,” he said. “This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq... this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war... our children will sing great songs about us years from now.”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/nc-pilger.html

And the PNAC-ers hoped for a "New Pearl Harbor" to bring this all about.


http://www.amconmag.com/3_1_04/cover.html

March 1, 2004 issue
Copyright © 2004 The American Conservative

No End to War
The Frum-Perle prescription would ensnare America in endless conflict.

By Patrick J. Buchanan

[CJCRANE]

55. The truth is probably in between.

It's probable that the hijackers were Middle-Easterners, but it's also possible that they were double-agents or patsies being used in a "black world" op (either wittingly or unwittingly).

[The Wielding Truth]

56. Tell him that an unchecked government or religion without restraints

will most certainly react without wisdom when faced with fear or greed.That is why it is so important to expect those you follow to have integrity.

They must have a proven history of considering the most positive routes to peace and they must consider the least among you as well as the repercussions of their actions on others in other lands. Earth is too small to risk being solely concerned about yourselves.

Your leaders must also show that they are accountable to the checks and balances agreed upon by the majority with minor allowances for those innocents who have been trapped in strange and unintended circumstances.

It's not easy being responsible for the future but you and I are setting it up now and every little step we make says yes or no to a peaceful survival.

This is why I have never supported the Bush administration and I speak out against it and other controlling powers who would rather turn a profit or gain more power than serve those who gave them the authority on their behalf.

If he wants justice for his loved ones he must ask for these qualities in his leaders as well we should ask in ours. We will prevail if we hold our leaders accountable.