Warning: No-Groping Zone

[dogday]

The pink-striped cars on Brazil's trains and subways are reserved for women only, but is it protection or segregation?

They delivered a cold stare, then a sharp reprimand and finally gave a rousing shout for Roque Jose Santos to get out of their train car.

"This one's just for women, don't you know?" one female passenger cried as the 66-year-old music technician scuttled out of the compartment where, under Brazilian law, no men are allowed.

Last week, Rio de Janeiro became the world's third major city to bring women-only cars to its commuting trains and subways, joining Tokyo and Mexico City. A new law mandates a separate car for women during rush hour, marked on the outside by a pink-striped sticker or a sign with the symbol of a woman.

Many women have welcomed the law as a relief from the groping and sexual harassment they regularly experience in the packed cars. "Men think it's extremely normal to do this. They don't feel guilty at all," says Monica Aranjo Neves, 34, an administrative assistant who has been groped on several occasions. "We have to go to work, then take care of everything at home, and we shouldn't have to deal with this on the train."

http://www.alternet.org/story/35753/

[tanyev]

1. Wouldn't a swift downward plant of a stiletto heel or an elbow

in the abdomen stop the groping problem pretty quickly?

[Lerkfish]

3. if its happening so often they have to make a separate car, then no.

Unless you're suggesting women should have to knee someone in the groin everyday as part of their work commute regimen? Would you like to have to punch someone out everyday on your way to work?

your solution is not really a solution, because it requires the victim to be stronger and more ruthless than the attacker.

Besides, if they did one guy like that, and the problem is that widespread, do you think the other molestors on the car wouldn't gang up on the one woman?

[tanyev]

5. I don't know; I'm asking. I have no experience with a crowded

subway system, but I've never heard of this being a problem in New York City. I can't imagine the women there putting up with it.

[BiggJawn]

18. It'd be a great stress reliever.

"Would you like to have to punch someone out everyday on your way to work?"

I've been tempted, many a time.

This must be a "Machisimo" or second-world thing, since groping somebody in a crowded bus or elevator is the furthest thing from my mind.
Don't they have a huge problem wuith this in Japan, too?

[Fierce]

19. Um, what?

"Machisimo"? "Second-world"? Are you saying women never get harassed by white people?

[Name removed]

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[Fierce]

39. Hey, thanks for the welcome.

Actually, you've hit on a small part of it. It's a much more publicized problem in other places. If women raise it here, you see a lot of foot-dragging. I think men have a piss-poor attitude toward women everywhere; it just comes out in different ways.

I asked because I was trying to understand exactly what you were saying. There's no room for misunderstanding when discussing this.

[Name removed]

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[Dora]

52. Sadly, this does happen here. Yes, indeed.

You may not remember the parade/festival in New York City a few years ago when women were being sexually assaulted by groups of men in Central Park - might I add that this was in broad daylight with police officers nearby, some of whom failed to respond to bystanders' demands for help. I believe the NYPD recently reached an out-of-court settlement with one victim.

There are also the sexual assaults that occured in New Orleans during and after Katrina. I know that those stories have largely been silenced by the media, and the common phrase is "over-exaggerated." But it doesn't take much to listen to a survivor's story and realize that in the lawlessness of the days that followed the storm, sexual assault was as likely (or more likely) to occur as any other crime. This post from DailyKos may be informative. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/21/184724/10

It does happen here. And it happens often enough for me to know that if a man is inclined to rape, grope, or otherwise assault a woman - he will if he feels he's safe enough to do so. We live in a rape culture, and those men who aren't rapists aren't doing enough to stop those men who are. The burden of proof is always on the woman to "prove" the assault, to "prove" the harm, to "prove" criminality of the aggressor.

Brazil's subway cars are an excellent example of how men will behave if they know they can get away with it.

We're not so far from that ourselves. It's a thin line, and we're crossing further over it every day.

[Lerkfish]

71. i'm confused by this part of your post...

"We live in a rape culture, and those men who aren't rapists aren't doing enough to stop those men who are."

I'm a little confused as to how you propose us "non-rapists" should stop the rapists?
Unfortunately (on many levels) Rapists don't wear ID badges. For the most part, rapes are done in secluded areas specifically so they cannot be stopped by others.

what do you propose us nonrapist men do, exactly?

[Dora]

78. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so "rape" specific.

It's my opinion that gender-segregated subway cars probably wouldn't have been necessary if those non-groping men in the subway would publicly call-out and shame those groping creeps.

Peer pressure works. Women can work all day and night to fight against sexual assault but it will never work until men actively work to stop other men from doing it.

Peer pressure works.

[Lerkfish]

79. ok, that makes more sense. A public groping can be called out and

shut down by witnesses.

[seabeyond]

6. and then wouldnt a fist in the womans face be the likely outcome from

men that dont see it as inappropriate to grab another persons body in a personal manner?

ya that is the answer.

[MuseRider]

7. I was groped in Mexico

City on the subway and I can tell you that there was not enough room to move your leg and both hands were holding my children tightly. Seriously, enough room for a guy to rub up against you and grab what his hand was near but not nearly enough room to get him to stop. It was the longest short ride of my life.

[tanyev]

9. Thank you for answering my question.

[Marie26]

24. No

The problem is pervasive in many countries. When I was traveling abroad, I had to always be conscious of where people were, try to stand next to a group of women or families, notice if a man seemed to be manuevering my way, & even move if someone was acting suspicious. Women have to be alert of their surroundings at all times & it sort of sucks. Acting violently would just provoke the person to further violence & put you in a bad situation. In many countries, some men see nothing wrong w/acting this way, & the woman might end up being the one arrested.

[tanyev]

26. Sounds like the women-only cars are a band-aid on a symptom,

not a solution to a societal problem. What does it take to turn something like that around?

[dysfunctional press]

28. you'd basically have to change human nature...

as long as men have testosterone in their systems, a certain percentage are going to act out this way in those crowded situations. the separate cars thing may seem like a band-aid to some- but it's one that works.

[lukasahero]

30. So are you suggesting that men can't control themselves?

"Human nature" or bad behavior? Once again the resolution to the problem seems to be restrict the women not challenge the behavior of the men.

[dysfunctional press]

31. some men apparently can't, no.

otherwise the segregated cars wouldn't have been needed in the first place.

and in this case, you've gotten it totally backwards- it's the MEN who are being restricted, NOT the women...the women are not REQUIRED to ride in the pink-striped cars, but men ARE restricted from doing so.

[lukasahero]

Well, that answers that question

or does it? Some men can't or some men won't?

I don't suppose you have any suggestions how women might be able to identify those men who simply can't control themselves, do you? Because otherwise, although some on this thread will take offense to this, women will have to consider all men suspect.

[dysfunctional press]

66. the guys doing the groping-

are generally the ones who can't control themselves...

and if you feel that the best course of action for women is to automatically think the worst about all men, you certainly won't mind if we do the same and naturally assume that any woman who chooses to wear revealing or provacative clothing is "asking for it", should we end up on a jury in a sexual assault case, for instance...that's cool with you, right...?

[lukasahero]

74. So we have to wait to be accosted to know which guys to protect ourselves

from? Ok. I'll bear that in mind.

[Name removed]

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[lukasahero]

82. Bwahahaha

To quote my favorite witch "Bored now".

[dysfunctional press]

84. wow- the truth really scares 'em away...

when it cuts too close to the bone.

[Karmakaze]

86. Now wait a minute...

I wouldnt go that far at all. I am not talking about women having to be suspicious of all men. What I am talking about is some women BLAMING all men. There is a difference. In this world it is only sane that a woman should look at all men as a potential abuser, but blaming all men for those that are is unfair.

Those of us who would never consider doing such things do not deserve to be lumped in with those to whom a penis means power. We are womens natural ally against such men and we, I assume, are what women WANT men to be like - respectful of their feelings AND their bodies, and know where the limits are WITHOUT having to be told.

It is our responsibilty to educate those men who do not respect these boundaries, and to make it no longer acceptable for women to be viewed as nothing more than objects. All I ask is not to be considered guilty of the acts of such men simply because I have no control over them.

[dysfunctional press]

92. omg...

are you like, a virgin, or something...?

"We are womens natural ally against such men and we, I assume, are what women WANT men to be like - respectful of their feelings AND their bodies, and know where the limits are WITHOUT having to be told."

yikes...get back to me when you have some experience with women in the REAL world- the relationship you're describing is called "just friends".


and believe it or not, there are plenty of women out there who are apparently quite happy being viewed and treated as nothing more than objects(and thankfully so)- just how do they fit into your grand scheme?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MuseRider]

29. I know you did not ask me

but I am going to say this anyway. IMNSHO men need to be the solution. Put pressure on your brothers to do the right thing. Start talking up women as people who deserve respect. I know a lot of you do this already but it has never been more than the occasional man. Hell, good close male friends of mine will be in a room talking with respect to a lot of us but can be heard 10 minutes later in another room with the guys talking about strip joints and big tits. It does not seem that they really respect women as people when supposedly out of our earshot. I don't know, I am just thinking here before I head out. I hope someone gives you a better answer.

[dysfunctional press]

69. have you ever been in a group of only women-

where one or more of them spoke in any disrespectful way about any man or men in general?

did you speak up and point out the disrespect?

[MuseRider]

70. I don't like generalizations

of any group but I can't say that at one time or another I have not done that myself. It has been a many year struggle and I am at this point right now. Now I probably would speak up about that, way back in the day? I probably would not have.

"Any man" is different than "men in general". I make my own decisions.

[dysfunctional press]

72. my point being-

that women are just as capable and willing of being disrespectful to the opposite sex when out of earshot as men are.

and there are plenty of men(and women) who find nothing disrespectful about strip clubs or big tits. it's all in perspective.

[MuseRider]

75. That is some perspective.

I don't even know where to start without starting something new and big and very contentious. I can't do it, I am trying to leave town so I would not even be able to respond.

I guess since I can't really comment you might start to think about how those things tie into each other. Dig down deep and try to see it from another perspective, really try. Groping and strip clubs? Do they relate somehow? Really, I am not trying to start a fight and the discussion really deserves it's own thread but it has been hashed over here many times and nothing has been accomplished. It requires some really difficult searching of souls apparently and I would ask you to do that. Until that is done there is nothing that will ever be accomplished.

I am out of here, I don't even know where to begin other than what I just said.

[dysfunctional press]

80. how do you know what my perspective is?

you assume way too much, lady.

and your condescending attitude is quite unbecoming, and greatly unappreciated.

there are as many ways of looking at life as there are people on the planet, and not everyone shares your perspective on things- or would even want to, (while others may be in total agreement) and as long as they aren't doing anything illegal, their chosen perspective is just as valid as yours. tolerance is a virtue, being prudishly judgmental is not.

and the last time i checked, neither big tits nor strip clubs are illegal. in fact, some people find that they go very well together(although i'm more of a leg man myself, and find the strip club experience seriously lacking, and pointlessly expensive- especially since i've given up cocktails).

as far as a connection between strip clubs and groping- it's pretty much a universal fact of strip clubs that if you grope the girls- you get tossed out. the dancers can touch you- but you can't touch them(and people say that stripping isn't empowering to women...).

[MuseRider]

85. So what happens

when the frustrated soul leaves the strip club all hot and horny and frustrated? You got it, and I have been there waiting for my friend to come home from a late night of "work". What in the hell could be empowering about getting men hot and horny? Seriously, the easiest damned job in the world.

Don't even talk to me about my "prudish judgmental attitude". There is one hell of a long distance between prudish and feeling safe my friend.

I did not judge you and I am sorry you felt that I did, I asked you to look beyond your chosen ideas and see if there was not more in there to consider. Surely on a site like this where being intellectually curious and seeking answers are cherished that isn't a sin. Surely it isn't.

Whatever, I have more pleasant things to do that spend my time in this thread anymore.

[TorchTheWitch]

93. QuestionAll is right on this

Most of the customers aren't getting hot and horny. They're in public, and most of them find it to "open" or too embarrassing to relax enough to physically enjoy to get to the "hot and horny" point. For those that do get like that, they either go home and have sex with their wife or girlfriend, get themselves a "professional" or jerk off. You have to admit, it's kind of a silly question. They aren't neanderthals (most of them anyway), they're people. I mean, really... what do you do when you get hot and horny? The ones that are neanderthals are still neanderthals anywhere else they go... and they probably aren't getting laid as much as men that are respectful and treat women well. Peoples' real life attitudes don't change the minute the step into a strip club, nor do they change the minute they step out.

It isn't the easiest job in the world. Try it yourself and see how easy it isn't. Men don't just throw their wallets at us just because we happen to be there. This is sales. She with the best sales skills makes the most money, and it makes no difference what she looks like. The most beautiful woman with the hotest body in the club with a nice personality is NEVER the biggest money maker without the best sales skills. And yes, it's absolutely empowering, but only for those that don't have a problem with it. There are plenty of women that try it, find that it makes them uncomfortable, and as a result, they won't make any money and feel badly about themselves. And since they aren't making money, they'll quit. This job quickly weeds out the ones that aren't suited for it. There are PLENTY of women doing this job that ARE suited for it, but because of their lack of skills can't make enough money.

Last Tuesday night I had to work and didn't feel very well (but not so unwell as to justify my not going to work), so my basic goal for the night was just to get it overwith. I did all my stage sets, chatted up the customers, and guess how much money I left with? Fifty-three dollars. I made $127, but after paying the fees and tipping out the DJ and bouncers, I left with $53. Tonight I made $1142. The difference between the two is that Tuesday I was hardly trying and tonight I was working hard (and it happened to be just a good night... normally for that amount of work, I wouldn't have made quite that much... luck does play a small part).

The strip club environment is entirely different than real life. In there it's the women who have the power. The rules are designed that way, and there's security to make sure that customers are behaving themselves and aren't being rude or insulting. The club has a vested interest in providing a fun and comfortable atmosphere for everyone, and the gropers and bastards ruin if for everyone, so the club won't tolerate them. When I worked in the corporate world, I slaved 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week for slave wages and got figuratively reamed up the ass. If clients or co-workers or my boss or the clients (or all of the above) were dispicable asshats, I had to smile and take it. As a stripper I can tell the clients or my co-workers to fuck off if they bug me and not have to worry about losing my job. I don't have a boss because I am the boss. I work when I want, how I want (within the club rules which coincide with local law), as much or as little as I want and in any club I want that will hire me. I can chose (or chose not to chose) my own customers according to my own personal criteria, and if they annoy me for whatever reason I chose, I can tell them to fuck off and opt not to deal with them.

Do you have that kind of power in your job? Now maybe you can understand how empowering it is.

I wouldn't go back to the corporate world for anything... and I was even considered a "professional". If that's how the corporate world wants to treat a professional, than NoThanksSeeYaBye. The only single regret that I have with becoming a stripper is that I didn't do is sooner.


On Edit... I win the world's worst speller award! Yeah me!

[Marie26]

43. I don't even know

It probably has to do w/changing the culture, so that women are seen as people worthy of respect, instead of objects worthy of disrespect & abuse. But that is a much bigger problem, w/no ready solution. I think I would second MuseRiders' plea that men hold other men accountable when they see actions or hear comments that disrespect women. I know it's difficult to do that, but I think every little bit helps in changing the prevelant culture.

[Lerkfish]

2. YIKES! for the problem to be this pervasive is ludicrous.

what is with these men, anyways? I used to ride subways in NYC, packed like sardines, and I would never even have contemplated such an invasive assault. yes, I'm a man, yes, they're women, so WHAT? Geez.

[Karmakaze]

12. Well...

on the few occasions where I have been in such a position, ie crammed into a confined space with a woman, I have felt uncomfortable myself, not because I thought I would be groped (although being male the chances of that are pretty slim) but because I knew that it was highly likely that the woman I was crammed up against would be feeling uncomfortable and possibly even fearful of such "attention".

I would hate to think I was making a woman feel that way, especially on a train or bus where being jostled around would inevitably lead to her falling against me or me falling against her (although falling isnt really the best description). The very idea that this woman might be thinking I'm some kind of pervert really worries me.

So if having a seperate car for women makes them feel safer, and thus in a round about way makes me feel safer, then I'm all for it.

[MuseRider]

22. Bumping up against

other people can be uncomfortable but I don't know anyone who would fault you for that in a crowded subway. Many times, from the stories I heard from my friends in Mexico City, groping simply does not cover it. The one experience I had the guy was rubbing himself against my backside, leaning in close to my ear and moaning softly. It was nothing that could be interpreted as bumping up against.

Bumping up against someone is just something that happens. I hate to think that anyone would feel badly about that just because of a bunch of other people who take advantage of these situations to do otherwise.

After my experience I have not once ever thought of other men as perverts when in a situation like that. If you don't act like a perv then I can't imagine others thinking that of you. We are always fearful of that though so your thoughtfulness is welcome.

[Karmakaze]

41. And yet right here on this thread...

are at least two women (well I think they are women) who seem to think otherwise. They seem to believe that I have control over the actions of other men and so I should be lumped in with them in statements such as "another example of men being the problem".

I understand why women feel this way, but you can see why even the most involuntary and innocuous touch of a woman in such a situation would make me feel uncomfortable. Am I breathing too heavy? Does she think I rubbed up against her on purpose? On and on... I have had some pretty torturous journeys on crowded buses simply because moving to a more comfortable position would entail rubbing against the people around me and one or more were women. All of this because of something I myself have never done or even contemplated doing.

So like I said, I am all for making women feel safer, and if that in turn makes ME feel safer (ie less likely to accidentally do something that was perceived the wrong way), then all the better.

[MuseRider]

58. In a post up thread by lukasahero

that is not numbered is an answer.

"I don't suppose you have any suggestions how women might be able to identify those men who simply can't control themselves, do you? Because otherwise, although some on this thread will take offense to this, women will have to consider all men suspect."

This is a real problem. I, myself, do not consider that every man is a threat but I do know that any one of you could be a threat therefore I am very careful in everything I do. That is another issue, we are NOT free because of this.

It seems that whenever we start a thread like this one there are men who jump all over it (I am not including you in this but I have not read the entire thread so it is up to you to decide if it fits you) with knee jerk reactions that they are being persecuted because of a "few" bad men.

Here is an example of what needs to be done. I sit on a state board that deals with trying to reach equality for all GLBT citizens. I am not gay. Someone on the board in a fit of frustration will say something implying that it is the straight community that is doing this or that evil thing. My reaction as a straight person is to sit back and listen because I know it is true and I want to be part of the solution. I have never had the inclination to knee jerk a nasty reaction about "my" community being accused unfairly, I know it is true and that just because I am not one of them doesn't change that truth. I have to be part of the solution as a straight person to represent and present to "my" community.

If men would do the same it would go a long way to help the situation. It is difficult to ask people to behave in a respectful way to another group when they feel that by doing so their own "upper status" will be challenged not to mention all their "fun".

[Karmakaze]

60. I also said...

that I had no problem with that. I understand totally why all women would have to consider all men SUSPECT, but, that does not mean that all men should be considered GUILTY.

I was also trying to point out that I myself feel in part way repsonsible, even though I have no control over it, and that it makes me feel uncomfortable in such tightly packed situations that I might be setting off those alarm bells in a woman's mind. Not because I fear being accused but because I do not want to ADD to the fear women already rightfully feel.

But when I am specifically told that I should accept blame for acts over which I have no control I will rally against that. There is never any excuse for bigotry, not even being the victim of it. I can understand why it happens (ie backlash) but that does not mean I should tolerate it any more than that person should.

If you want to change mens attitudes, lumping all men in together won't help. That will simply cause exactly the same kind of backlash as women have had against males. You have to break the cycle, not perpetuate it. And don't take this to mean I am saying women should be solely responsible for this, but I am saying that if women want to treat all men as the enemy, then that is the way men will react - as the enemy.

[MuseRider]

65. I generally do not

involve myself in these threads. I find it difficult to discuss. I do find men to be the enemy much of the time, that is one reason I do not join these threads. Do I realize that there are good men out there, yes. I raised two boys to young men and I love them with my entire being but that would not stop me from calling them on their "superior male" bullshit. Ask them, they will chuckle and admit that I have nailed them from time to time.

At this point I do not know what to say anymore. Are there good men? Yes but why do we always have to say that? In general all of you have to be suspected because we do not know who the next attack, be it verbal or sexual, will come from. I have been surprised numerous times by men I thought were good guys. This is not my problem, it is yours. My problem is getting from point A to point B safely every single time I go out of my home. My problem is keeping my home secure. See what I am saying? I don't hate you nor do I hate men in general but every single one of you could be the next attack waiting. So if you all want that to not be the case it is up to you to do something more than saying you agree. This must happen. You do not have our trust. There will always be some men who will continue this behavior, we all know that, but it has gotten to be such a large problem now that we have a hard time trusting you as a sex. Believe me when I say that we would love to be able to trust you and not feel threatened just by your closeness in a situation. This is only my opinion, I know that there are many who disagree but it is an opinion based on a lifetime of experience.

We have tried and accomplished much but the backlash has gone from bad to worse. Short of burquas and hiding in our homes I don't know what else we can do. The line, "Trust us and we will be better" does not work anymore. The line, "Don't be so hateful and we will treat you better" does not work anymore either. You want to not be a suspect? Then get out there and work with your brothers. Otherwise this will continue and you will feel uncomfortable on the subway too.

[lukasahero]

76. Thank you for a beautiful post

I've run out of steam and couldn't begin to manage such a well thought, well reasoned post. Just thought I'd get that in there before you're taken to task for it. ;)

:hug:

[Karmakaze]

87. Its not the suspicion that bothers me...

its the blame. It is only sane for a woman to see every man as a potential abuser, but blaming every man for the acts of those who are is different. I can no more MAKE every man change than you can, and in a small way I am also a victim of such men. Note, I said in a small way, it doesnt compare to womens experience but it is real.

This was sort of what I was trying to convey. That men like me are also minor victims of the acts of men like those who grope women on trains. We also have to modify our behaviour but in our case it is for fear of offending rather than being offended against. Then for us to be blamed for the acts that have also made us a victim can tend to boil the blood. I do everything I can to change this attitude among the many men that think women are "fair game", yet I am being forced to shoulder collective guilt for acts over which I have no control.

You know, I totally understand why women are angry about this - hell I am angry about this! In this day and age that such things as women only train cars are necessary is beyond disgusting. I guess that is why I reacted the way I did to being associated with such behaviour. It is disgusting behaviour and totally intolerable, and then to be accused of it, if only by association... well defensive reactions kicked in.

I'm sorry if I offended any women on this thread. I did not mean to. I did not want to come across as yet another male that belittled your experiences and feelings, and yet I feel I may have failed at that.

And most of all I am sorry that this whole discussion even needed to take place.

[JVS]

63. I don't mean to be all culturally imperialist, but could this be part of..

the "machismo" thing that is attributed to societies with a Latin background? I've also heard of similar problems in Japan. But I've not heard of it being such a problem in the UK, Northern Europe, and the US.

[MuseRider]

67. I did see

the "machismo" thing in action but I don't see it is any different here. American men just disguise it better because we have learned to call bullshit when we see it. At the time I was there it seemed the women had no choice but to endure it.

[Marie26]

68. I'd agree

Women in many other countries are taught to be much more subservient & men are allowed to get away w/a whole lot more than in the US. I think it's sort of ironic that for all the talk about burqas, chaperones & protecting women, self-empowerment & independence seems to be what really lessens assaults against women.

[Karmakaze]

88. I must say my own opinions are coloured by my...

home nation. I am a New Zealander, possibly one of the most progressive nations on the planet. At one time we had a woman Prime Minister, a woman Leader of the Opposition, and a high ranking Cabinet member was a very great trans-gendered lady who was the first trans-gendered woman (or man) to be voted in as Mayor, then the first as a Member of Parliament then Cabinet member, anywhere in the world.

While the right wing party (which in American terms would be closer to a centrist party) has now got a male leader, Our Prime Minister is still a woman - Helen Clark. In fact I seem to think she is close to being the longest serving PM in NZ history.

Yet, I will not say that even such a progressive country is free from sexism. It is there, even though it is not even remotely tolerated. I guess the greatest shame for the male side of humanity is that it seems to take very strict enforcement to accomplish what men should be doing without thought - treating women with the respect they deserve - and even then it is not a blanket effect. Rapes and other sexual assaults still occur, and it is not unknown for such men to go relatively unpunished for their crimes.

Perhaps my reaction to being treated as guilty by association stems from how different our cultures perceive such acts to be. In any case I never meant to offend women on this thread, and I am sorry if that is what happened.

[Marie26]

91. No offense taken.

Really. I didn't know New Zealand had a female prime minister! Sometimes it seems like many other countries have accomplished more in terms of gender equality than we have in the United States. Still, when I compare the lives of women in the US to the lives of women in most of the world, I am very grateful that I was lucky enough to be born here. Culture does affect how we perceive different issues, & it's always interesting to me how differently issues (like sexism) are viewed in different countries. Though no place is perfect, it does seem like progressive countries like New Zealand or Norway can offer an example for how these issues can be addressed. I'd love to visit New Zealand someday - it looks like such a beautiful country!

[Marie26]

4. Honestly, it's probably necessary. nt

[seabeyond]

8. but is it protection or segregation?

let me see, a bunch of male that feel no sense what so ever to keep their hands to themselves and off the female.

women and girls dont give a shit if it is protection or segregation, just fuckin have had enough with this ludicrous behavior. do you think the women that can get on a train without being harrassed cares how you want to define it?

i will go for being outraged that it even needed to be considered that males are so unable to be respectful to females.

[Karmakaze]

13. Wait...

While I agree with the sentiment, I would ask that you at least consider saying "SOME males are so unable to be respectful to females". Remember not all of us a perverts.

[seabeyond]

23. just enough. just enough that you feel it needs to be some. for

there to be so many males that they have to get seperate trains, or hiring an arnie for governor and people not have issue with his groping, adn still vote for, like and respect him. to hear my niece being rubbed up against at 13 by a 20 something waiter, and not to mention all my experiences, the some dude,.... just doesnt cut it for me right here and now, in my personal experience.

i dont think there are a whole lot of females that arent "protective" of the male and the bashing females do on males as much as i do. but no.... purposely this time i did not qualitfy this with some males. and i think i will leave it as is. when i start seeing males being as disgusted by this behavior then maybe then i will qualify it, but i dont. i see it in rape and equality,.... but this, well really, is this any big deal some man grabbing a womans butt, or breast, or sticking finger up crotch.

dont want "some" rigt now. to many men with attitude for some to be a reality

[Karmakaze]

38. So you think all men should be blamed for the acts of some?

How many men have to be disgusted by such acts before you will allow us to not be lumped in with the perverts? Just how far does your collective punishment go?

[lukasahero]

42. I thought this thread

was about the fact that women are groped routinely enough for a country to decide they should create a place in society where they can be truly safe from the some men who would grope them.

Changing the subject of the thread from focusing on the outrageous behavior of SOME men to "how dare you not specifically acknowledge that not all men are jerks" speaks for itself. I guess the fact that women should acknowledge how wonderful some men are is really more important to some men than the personal safety of some women.

[Karmakaze]

45. What the hell?

Are you really trying to turn my request not to be lumped in with perverts as some sort of proof that I am sexist or a pervert? If you look further up the thread you will see that I am all for this, and that I believe that women have every right to be furious at some men, and that I even understand why this would be directed at all men.

I simply asked that people consider NOT lumping all men together on this, and not only do I not get an ackowledgment that not all men do, or approve of such acts, I specifically get told that I should be held to account for those men who do. And on top of that you are now suggesting that by even asking not to be lumped in with perverts that I am somehow sexist?

I'm flabbergasted.

[lukasahero]

50. Actually, what I see upthread

is that it is all about you.

"So if having a seperate car for women makes them feel safer, and thus in a round about way makes me feel safer, then I'm all for it." emphasis added

I did not say you were sexist. I said that apparently it is more important to SOME men that women acknowledge that SOME men aren't perverts than that women are actually being groped in large enough numbers for a government to take such a drastic action.

You have, as far as I can see, made one post about the topic at hand with your remaining posts all focused on the outrage that a couple of women didn't use the word SOME to qualify their statements. And yet, even that one post speaks more about your fear than about the real fear that women live with daily. "The very idea that this woman might be thinking I'm some kind of pervert really worries me." What really worries you - that she might accuse you of something or that she really has a reason to fear?

[Karmakaze]

56. Well Im not a woman...

so I cant say that having a seperate car would make me feel safer from being groped, but I can say if women feel safer, and thus are less inclined to think all men are perverts and that I myself would not accidentally do something that a woman might feel is grpoing, that makes ME feel safer.

I don't see what I am suppsoed to say. Am I supposed to add to the chorus that it is disgusting that this should be necessary? Fine. If thats what you want, no problem. It is disgusting that there are perverts out there that abuse women in this way and in worse ways. As far as I am concerned that is a given. I would be shocked if anyon on DU said otherwise. I was simply adding another perspective to the issue. If that is a crime, then feel free to punish me all you want.

You have, as far as I can see, made one post about the topic at hand with your remaining posts all focused on the outrage that a couple of women didn't use the word SOME to qualify their statements

Outrage? I wouldnt call it outrage. Frustration maybe, but not outrage. I simply asked if it would be possible to remember that not all men are perverts, only to be basically told NO. As far as I am concerned that is JUST AS SEXIST as anything you seem to be accusing me of. You don't like that, then thats bad luck, but thats the impression I get.

As for it being one post it was in fact two, but only because I received only a single reply to that post. It seems to me that saying I fear causing women discomfort in such situations was far less interesting than me saying not all men are perverts. Why are so many women angry at me saying that? What is so wrong about that? Don't you think its true?

And yet, even that one post speaks more about your fear than about the real fear that women live with daily.

Oh so, as a man, my fears are not real? My fear that I might be perceived as being a pervert like those other men is not real? And yet here on this thread it has been PROVEN real. I never once downplayed or belittled womens fears. In fact I agreed that they had every right to have them and I can understand why they would even direct them at all men. Yet my feelings are to be ignored because, well hell, I'm just a man like all the rest, right?

What really worries you - that she might accuse you of something or that she really has a reason to fear?

Im not afraid I might be accused of something - you don't seem to be understanding what I am saying - I am afraid I might be inadvertantly contributing to her fears. Do you understand me? I do not want any woman to feel that I have ever done such a thing to them, but in such situations I fear that they might perceive it that way and it will affect them. Im not talking about them accusing me at all. Is it so shocking that I should be concerned about how my actions, even inadvertant ones, might affect others? Isnt that exactly what you are asking men to do?

[Marie26]

44. How is this thread about you? nt

[Karmakaze]

46. Oh what so I have no right to comment?

What the fuck is up with people on this thread?

Fine! All men are perverts, and we should all be put in prison. No, better yet we should be euthanised at birth.

Happy?

[IHTFP]

47. Of course you don't.

You're a guy.

[Marie26]

48. No

The defensiveness just puzzles me, that's all. The poster wasn't saying anything near that "all men are perverts & all should be put in prison." You've been up & down this thread swearing that you're a good guy. Fine, we believe you. So why not use all that energy yelling at men who disrespect women instead of yelling at women who believe they are disrespected?

[Karmakaze]

57. Are there any here?

I was commenting on a post on a message board. I don't see any men here saying that groping women on trains is acceptable, so what am I supposed to do? Should I invent such a post and attack it? If you are saying I should attack sexism whenever I see it, I do. Including sexism against males, but that is far less common. In fact just the other day I was one of the few voices saying that Anna Nicole Smith should not be called "the hooker" or "a whore" simply because she married a rich old man, and especially while that rich old man was simultaneously being called a victim.

The poster wasn't saying anything near that "all men are perverts & all should be put in prison."

Well the line I was commenting on in this sub-thread was "that males are so unable to be respectful to females." I said:

"While I agree with the sentiment, I would ask that you at least consider saying "SOME males are so unable to be respectful to females". Remember not all of us a perverts."

The seems pretty reasonable to me - in fact it is true NOT all males are perverts.

But then I am told:

"dont want "some" rigt now. to many men with attitude for some to be a reality"

So in other words as far as the author was concerned ALL men are "unable to be respectful to females".

The same held true of the other sub-thread, an intention to specifically blame ALL men for the actions of some. In fact YOUR post is the same. Only one person bothered to reply to my main post on this thread that simply gave another perspective on this, and yet people seem eager to attack me for daring to suggest not all men are to blame.

The only thing I can take from that is that some women DO blame all men, even though many of us are totally innocent and do everything we can to combat sexism, either in ourselves or in others.

[Marie26]

61. How was my post the same?

I just don't get the defensiveness. I'm not saying you don't speak out against sexism where it exists, since I haven't seen other threads. I just don't understand the eagerness to point out & insist that everyone make sure to qualify their statements as SOME MEN, and please don't assume that YOU are like this, and making hyperbolic statements that take someone's reasonable posts & extend it to an unreasonable level like "Oh, so men = evil", "you think all men should be locked up," etc. It's far from unique, I just don't understand it. If you are not like this, then you can rest assured in that knowledge, right?

[Karmakaze]

89. You dont see why I would be defensive...

about being associated with acts ranging from groping to rape? You dont see why I should be concerned that I am perceived to be like that?

The fact is I simply asked not to be lumped in with such men, and I was directly told that I would be, regardless of how I felt or acted. If you cant see how that is not only unfair but would generate a reaction from me, then I don't know what else to say. I am sorry if my not wanting to be associated with sexual predators is offensive to you or other women. I never meant it to be that way. Such behviour disgusts me and to be associated to it simply because I am male is offensive to me.

I certainly could have articulated what I feel better, but I in no way apologise for feeling that way.

[charlie]

17. Segregation

It's certainly an admission that their trains are unsafe and they won't make an effort to fix the problem. It's like having haven cars for non-gang-pickpocket-mugger riders.

[Fierce]

10. And yet another example...

....of men being the problem and women being the ones who have to separate themselves intstead of just having the men QUIT THEIR OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIOR.

[Karmakaze]

15. SOME MEN, dammit!

Stop lumping me in with the fucking perverts. I don't deserve it as I have never even considered such an act and would be outraged (and possibly physically violent to the offender) if I witnessed it.

[Fierce]

16. How wonderful for you.

Go off and lecture men who do deserve it, then, instead of me.

[Karmakaze]

21. I do. So why are you lecturing me, when I don't deserve it?

Or do you truly believe that ALL men are perverts? That ALL men do things like groping women on trains?

[Fierce]

25. Let's just say

that men don't have the best track record in such things. For all the men I've heard who have insisted that they'd never do such a thing or stand by if another man did such a thing, you'd think this type of thing never happened. Eh, call me cynical.

[IHTFP]

27. Right ; we forgot the mantra

Men=Evil. Sorry!

[Fierce]

64. If men = evil,

I wouldn't bother trying to change things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Did I miss the part of the DU application...

In which I needed to declare my belief that man bashing was good clean fun?

All-encompassing generalizations suck.

[Karmakaze]

34. Wow, so you have spoken to billions of men?

You get around don't you?

[bloom]

49. In the subway - all the men would be lumped together

perverts or not.

[Karmakaze]

59. And I have no problem with that...

Just so long as it is recognised that not all of us ARE perverts.

[IHTFP]

20. SOME men...not all...Thanks!

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[IHTFP]

36. Thanks!

[Rosemary2205]

11. Give it 30 years

we'll all be in Burquas because a small percentage of men want to ruin it for everyone else. And yes, I too would be grateful to have a grope free ride and just would not care if it's protection or segregation. Don't know that I'd feel that way about the burqua though.......

[paparush]

14. FALWELL: BRAZIL ENCOURAGES LESBIANISM!!

The invasion will be launched as soon as we have reduced Iran to a glowing crater.

[BeFree]

37. It's needed

Men are dogs. We don't mean to hurt or scare women, but we do. Its not right. No one deserves to be assaulted in such a way.

Sadly, I admit I did a little groping once. We were packed in like sardines, waiting to get off the gambling boat. I had way too much to drink, and this young lady in front of me.... well anyway, she stood up for herself.

I was so embarassed. Still am four years later.

Sad thing is I am a real gentleman compared to most men I know.

What's the solution? Personal control, and respect for other humans.

[bloom]

51. "I am a real gentleman compared to most men I know."

I think this idea allows some men to grope, etc. - just with the rational that you gave. Your idea is that many men do this - so what's the difference - one more - right. You're just like "one of the guys".

A lot of bad behavior can be rationalized that way.

That's why many people - like above say that it IS up to the men to call their friends out on stuff - as uncomfortable as that might be.

This is a learned, shared idea - how to treat women. It is not "natural" or inevitable.


"The Schwendingers (1983) show that rape myths and negative views of women are learned in adolescent single sex peer groups. Ageton (1983) identified 63 sexually aggressive adolescent males in a national longitudinal sample who held attitudes supportive of sexual assault prior to their aggressive acts. These beliefs were not held by sexually non aggressive males. Further, these attitudes and behaviors were strongly influenced by delinquent peers."

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html


But good for you for admitting it. A lot of men won't own up to it.

[BeFree]

53. As you say...

... it has its roots in adolescent behaviors. Growing up with big sisters, I learned early on to be ashamed of such behavior.

Boys need to be taught by women, indeed, are. Might it be a failure of mothers and sisters not educating their sons and brothers at an early age?

[Dora]

55. Let's not forget the role of fathers and brothers, too.

The failure is equally shared across genders.

[bloom]

96. Funny that you blame women.

Seems just like what an abuser would do.


I've heard abusers blame women because women give birth to everyone.

Some people will say anything to suggest that their abuse is the fault of women.

[Hidden Stillness]

77. Bigotry and Contempt for Women Concerning Rape, etc.

(Actually wanted to post this at the thread on people who defend accused rapists rather than the woman, as a knee-jerk response, but it was locked first. It will have to do, here.)

Rape and other crimes such as sexual harrassment, discrimination, etc., seem to get right to the heart of a deeper bigotry against women, that dresses itself up as something "reasonable," but is actually bourne of a fuming hate. You can feel this often because, as soon as you express support for the victim, very often the first thing you get is an accusation that you "hate males," "just as bad as bigotry that goes the other way," etc., as if in their minds, this is a fight where you are either "for us or against us," and they never consider any new facts or arguments. It is not even a new, individual case; this is an age-old war, always. All the games where they pretend to be so meticulously careful--about "evidence," "not presuming guilt," etc.--yet they spit out these claims that women are lying to get custody of children etc., and provide no evidence whatsoever as to how that was "proved," by whom, and with what motive, so the innocent woman seeking custody is presumed guilty and lying, with not so much as a trial. They claim that all males with verdicts of "not guilty" were framed (by the "bitch") and were "innocent," which then brings up the bizarre presumption on their part that no one guilty has ever been pronounced "not guilty," and that it is not possible to know that there has been a miscarriage of justice, this way. Then the murderer of Medger Evers was not known to have been wrongly freed, when actually guilty? I didn't know that. How do you presume people know that guilty people are sometimes let off the hook, if there is not evidence apart from a jury verdict? Bizarrely naive, or full of unreasoning hate.

Of course, they are seldom honest, so you have many routines designed to appear unassailable, and of course, designed to win. They are all sympathy ("poor guy, to be brought down by a mere bitch"), ("why are you bitches never satisfied; how much do you want to pillory the poor guy" by seeking justice, etc.), ("rape is worse when it happens to a male, 'cause, they don't deserve it"); or all arrogance, ("I ripped these bitches apart on another thread, you can do it this time"); or all "reasoning," never paying attention to guilt even after there is evidence, ripping it all apart on any pretext--note the hateful attack on the language used by the rape kit nurse ("injuries consistent with rape"), where they jump on it as if they believe it is an admission that there is no evidence, when it is standard, cautious legal language. If the nurse were asked in court, "Do you believe a sexual assault happened?" I'm sure the answer will be "Yes"--so the point of attacking this is, what? If they use language that presumes guilt, it is attacked; if they use cautious language that does not point the finger yet until evidence is developed--it is attacked; so, they cannot do anything right. Their attacks on women are "brave" and "waiting (forever) for evidence," your response is "politically correct," so they are the (alleged) victims, again. The thread a little while ago on the male judge who gave a repeat rapist of a child a sentence of 3 months, also used the "I have compassion; let's not seek revenge" routine--then it came out that this judge has a long, very punitive record against women coming into that court, on all kinds of cases.

Then there is the attempt to remove her standing and deny a crime happened, but pretend not to, by not referring to her as the presumptive victim, but as "accuser," a strange word that has no legal standing (they are referred to as "witnesses" in court, also strange). Why do you claim, with no evidence and no trial, that she is only "accusing" these things, implying that she is lying; why not call her the "alleged accuser," since you are removing her from her story and imposing your own anyway? You claim that she is "accusing" only--prove it. Oh, how hair-splitting careful they are with evidence and judgments, except when they are imputing all kind of motives to the victim, whom they presume to be lying--and all with no evidence or proof.

These people (woman haters) also only believe forensic evidence when it is on "their" side, but it is always "inconclusive" when it supports the rape victim, and as pointed out, they never fight this way when it is any other crime's forensic evidence; and I am also tired of the routine where males pretend to be so gravely serious about what "a terrible charge" rape is--then they go back to telling rape jokes, which I have never heard a woman do. Bruises, tears of vaginal skin, and the woman's terrified, mute behavior; yeah, that was a fun night with her loved one--oh, and she also immediately identified the three suspects. This will be attacked, too; they do not want facts. It reminds me of when the lawyers of this Steven Avery of Wisconsin got DNA evidence thrown out from an earlier case, and this bastard was freed, to great male media fanfare, (does this count as a "false charge"?), then, immediately after that, a photographer named Teresa Halbach was held against her will, raped, tortured, and murdered, with torture exactly the same as the other victim. It turned out the male lawyers had not proved the evidence was false or did not match up; they just pulled the old "tainted chain of custody" routine on a sympathetic judge, who fell for it. There were no witnesses, because the one witness who came along and said there was no crime, was the murderer's nephew, who joined, also raped her, and helped bury the body; now in custody, confessed. Why do you always believe those (males) who say nothing happened, never investigating why they sometimes say it?

They trivialize: it is not rape, it is "fondling," "advances that she rejected," (so she is the "bitch"), "went too far," etc. As many have mentioned, there is an attitude, admit it or not, toward the woman, where they claim she is always lying, and no amount of reasoning will reach this attitude, because it is based on hate; they do not care about the victim, at all. It is the attitude of an abuser. Also mentioned on this thread is the attitude that a husband can't rape a wife. This reminds me of an actual case in West Virginia I think it was, a few years ago, where an abusive male raped the woman, tied her up on the bed, raped her, beat her, shoved a bottle up her vagina, etc., then at the trial said, "How can a man rape his own wife?"--and was acquitted! (This doesn't count as a "false rape charge," does it?) My favorite example of a finally honest male, which I have given before on this website, involved a rapist who, after being put in a rapist/anger management/face-what-you-have-done course in prison, came to develop a conscience and to feel remorse, for the victims. This person then became a counselor in prison, confronting rapists and helping prosecutors, etc., understand how rape is treated. Describing the (male) police questioning after the crime, the rapist, who knew that a rape had been committed and that the victim was telling the truth, and that the rapist's own story was a lie, said, "I couldn't believe it. They believed everything that I said." The actual rapist knew that it was a lie, and that it was being helped along and agreed with by male police with their own attitudes toward women.

[BreweryYardRat]

54. It's not an issue with all men...

...just the frat-boy testosterone-overload alpha male mentality about 30-50% of us have. Wanna cut down on groping? Put it terms they can understand:

"Do not grope women. Think about this: would you like it if a gay guy groped you?"

And once they do their little alpha male anti-gay posturing, say:

"Then don't grope women-it's basically the same thing."

[JVS]

62. And people wonder why public transportation is unpopular

[genieroze]

73. I heard about this in Japan and in that country it's thought of as

unacceptable to say anything. Try that here a-holes, I grope back hard and painful. I wouldn't say a word but I bet he would.

[Blue_Tires]

83. it's a shame that it had to come down to this

[Jose Diablo]

90. Is groping allowed in the non-striped cars?

Maybe some of the women want to be groped, that way they can mosey over to the proper cars. Maybe we should do that here, have non-groping and groping cars, think of it as smoking and non-smoking areas. Who knows, maybe restaurants could open groping areas.

Then there are the parks, just imagine a sign that says Groping Allowed behind this sign. Then there could be groping lanes on the expressways. Could even have designated groping roads too. There is real potential to this groping idea.